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View Full Version : Leo to Leo sale


ap3572001
05-18-2011, 11:25 AM
Can an LEO OFFER A PISTOL WITH STD. CAPACITY MAGAZINES FOR SALE TO ANOTHER LEO ONLY? Would it be perfectly legal ?

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 11:31 AM
Needs to go through a PPT at a 01 FFL dealer, just like everyone else.

ap3572001
05-18-2011, 11:45 AM
Needs to go through a PPT at a 01 FFL dealer, just like everyone else.

I thought that a person can't offer std .capacity magazines for sale in Ca.

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 11:58 AM
Missed the mag part. AFAK LEO's are exempt from the mag laws.
I believe it's under 12020(b)(20)pc

ap3572001
05-18-2011, 12:01 PM
So I just write " FOR LEO ONLY?"

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 12:04 PM
So I just write " FOR LEO ONLY?"
Or disassemble the mag and sell it as a parts/rebuild kit.

ap3572001
05-18-2011, 12:12 PM
Whats a decent sale price for a 1995 FULL SIZE USP 45 VAR-I . In the box with everything and 5 factory magazines? ( 95-97% condition)? Thanks.

rromeo
05-18-2011, 12:23 PM
About $600-700.

CSACANNONEER
05-18-2011, 12:37 PM
Section 12020, subdivision (b)(20) is largely self-explanatory. A
person who is properly identified as a reserve peace officer is a
“sworn peace officer.” If the reserve peace officer is also
“authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or
her duties,” the reserve peace officer can lawfully purchase a
large-capacity ammunition magazine in California.


Without a large capacity magazine permit, it is illegal for ANYONE in Ca. to offer for sale or sell +10 round magazines to anyone in any state. So, it would be illegal for a LEO to sell another LEO a +10 round mag. It is illegal to offer to sell +10 round mags to someone who is out of state and so on. Read the law and follow it to the letter. Or, loose your freedoms and possibly your pensions. IT's up to everyone to dicide for themselves but, again, it is ILLEGAL for a LEO to sell a +10 round mag to another LEO. Hell, it's even illegal for anyone to sell +10 round mags to a store with a large capacity mag permit. The holder of the permit can buy and sell +10 round mags. A LEO can BUY +10 round mags but, without a permit, nobody can sell +10 round mags to someone with a permit. It's really that simple and logical, isn't it?

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 12:46 PM
12020
(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt
of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a
sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

rromeo
05-18-2011, 12:47 PM
Sale to a peace officer is exempt in 12020.

ap3572001
05-18-2011, 12:58 PM
Thanks!

CSACANNONEER
05-18-2011, 1:17 PM
Sale to a peace officer is exempt in 12020.

If that is the case, why does any shop need a large capcity permit in order to SELL to LEOs? I really think there is more to this and would like to here from some of the legal minds around here.

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 1:21 PM
If that is the case, why does any shop need a large capcity permit in order to SELL to LEOs? I really think there is more to this and would like to here from some of the legal minds around here.
Because they need the permit to import the magazines into the state so they can sell them. No permit, no magazines to sell.

CSACANNONEER
05-18-2011, 1:29 PM
Because they need the permit to import the magazines into the state so they can sell them. No permit, no magazines to sell.

So, you are trying to tell me that anyone, without a permit, can sell +10 round mags to LEOs? Something tells me that this is incorrect.

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 1:43 PM
So, you are trying to tell me that anyone, without a permit, can sell +10 round mags to LEOs? Something tells me that this is incorrect.

Well lets look at the law,

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

and the exemptions,

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:

(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt
of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a
sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

As you stated, it is largely self-explanatory.

CSACANNONEER
05-18-2011, 1:46 PM
Well, I might have been off base on this one. It looks like LEOs can import and sell to other LEOs without a large capacity magazine permit. I wonder what DOJ thinks about this?

FLIGHT762
05-18-2011, 1:50 PM
12020 exemption looks pretty clear to me, however, I contacted a local FFL who has a Hi cap permit.

I was told by my FFL, who has a (Hi cap mag permit) that the sale, give, lend etc. of a +10 mag to a Peace Officer is legal. He also said he needs the permit because he is a commercial entity, the permit is needed for him to purchase them.

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 1:53 PM
So, you are trying to tell me that anyone, without a permit, can sell +10 round mags to LEOs? Something tells me that this is incorrect.

Yup it's perfectly legal to sell +10 round mags to any qualifying LEO. sub section(b)(a)(20) is the authority section which not allows sale to as well as purchases by LEO's. It also authorized LEO's to import +10 round mags into California.

Sub section (b)(a) (30)(B) allows LEO's to manufacture +10 round magazines or have them manufactured for their use.



12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the
state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives,
lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable
firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a
firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which
contains or consists of any fléchette dart, any bullet containing or
carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst
trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any
short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any
leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol,
any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge
knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice
handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon
of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy,
sandclub, sap, or sandbag.
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any of the following:


(20) The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt
of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a
sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.


(30) (A) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for any
federal, state, county, city and county, or city agency that is
charged with the enforcement of any law, for use by agency employees
in the discharge of their official duties whether on or off duty, and
where the use is authorized by the agency and is within the course
and scope of their duties.
(B) The manufacture of a large-capacity magazine for use by a
sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with
Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties.

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 1:56 PM
Well, I might have been off base on this one. It looks like LEOs can import and sell to other LEOs without a large capacity magazine permit. I wonder what DOJ thinks about this?

Who cares what they think.;) Besides it's not really DOJ's issue. They really could care less. It's the politicians who drive the silly laws.

LEO's can also manufacture +10 magazines.....

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 1:58 PM
Well, I might have been off base on this one. It looks like LEOs can import and sell to other LEOs without a large capacity magazine permit. I wonder what DOJ thinks about this?

Anyone can sell a +10 magazine to any qualifying LEO. It's not limited to sales only between LEO's.

rromeo
05-18-2011, 2:00 PM
Who cares what they think.;) Besides it's not really DOJ's issue. They really could care less. It's the politicians who drive the silly laws.

LEO's can also manufacture +10 magazines.....

Well, the DO(i)J is charged with enforcing the law, so it is their issue.

CSACANNONEER
05-18-2011, 2:01 PM
Anyone can sell a +10 magazine to any qualifying LEO. It's not limited to sales only between LEO's.

I understood that. I was just showing how the whole large capacity permit thing is completely stupid. Since any sworn LEO can import without a permit and sell without a permit, why aren't more LEOs making a few bucks on the side? Why does Ca DOJ make such a big deal about passing out large capacity permits to FFL holders if LEOs can do the same thing with ZERO regulation?

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 2:02 PM
Well, the DO(i)J is charged with enforcing the law, so it is their issue.
LOL, half the time they can't even tell us what the "law" means.:D

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 2:08 PM
Well, the DO(i)J is charged with enforcing the law, so it is their issue.

DOJ is an enforcement agency just like any local law enforcement agency. When laws change so does enforcement. If the laws regarding +10 mags were to change it would not "matter" to any enforcement arm. They would just comply with the changes. It happens all the time with many many laws.

Marijuana laws are a good example when I first started in the 70's any MJ was a felony. Now sometimes it's "legal"..

It did not "matter" to the enforcers. We just changed our policies along with the changes in the laws.

We don't make em, we just enforce em......:D

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 2:16 PM
I understood that. I was just showing how the whole large capacity permit thing is completely stupid. Since any sworn LEO can import without a permit and sell without a permit, why aren't more LEOs making a few bucks on the side? Why does Ca DOJ make such a big deal about passing out large capacity permits to FFL holders if LEOs can do the same thing with ZERO regulation?

Because there is not really a market for +10 mags among LEO's. Most agencies provide LEO's with their duty guns and mags so who needs to buy more? For off duty guns most come with two mags, so most do not buy more.

Yep the laws are more than stupid.. I believe DOJ gets it's mandates from above. In addition a High Cap license is another way to get $$$ from dealers.

If a LEO were to "go into business" based on his 12020 exemption he would in all likelihood be subject to internal discipline. LEO's are subject to discipline for otherwise legal activities if that activity could cast the organization as a whole in a bad light.

ap3572001
05-18-2011, 2:17 PM
Fine. So what is good way to advertise (offer for sale) a pistol with several. std capacity magazines? Just write FOR LEO ONLY? When I sell my USP I want to do everything right.

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 2:18 PM
LOL, half the time they can't even tell us what the "law" means.:D

Sure they will.........However that definition changes from day to day, and depending on who you talk to. :D

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 2:18 PM
DOJ is an enforcement agency just like any local law enforcement agency. When laws change so does enforcement. If the laws regarding +10 mags were to change it would not "matter" to any enforcement arm. They would just comply with the changes. It happens all the time with many many laws.

Marijuana laws are a good example when I first started in the 70's any MJ was a felony. Now sometimes it's "legal"..

It did not "matter" to the enforcers. We just changed our policies along with the changes in the laws.

We don't make em, we just enforce em......:D


And through some twisted logic, often times get blamed for them.

cacop
05-18-2011, 3:46 PM
Well, the DO(i)J is charged with enforcing the law, so it is their issue.

Actually the DOJ/AG doesn't prosecute very often. A better description for what the DOJ/AG office does is advise and interpret the laws passed by the state.

cacop
05-18-2011, 3:49 PM
Fine. So what is good way to advertise (offer for sale) a pistol with several. std capacity magazines? Just write FOR LEO ONLY? When I sell my USP I want to do everything right.

That's pretty much what gun stores do. My local store has at least 2-3 guns in their shelf that says "for LE only" at any one time. In theory you could split up the sale. Sell the pistol w/o mags or with a 10 rounder to non LE and then sell the mags to LE.

All kinds of deals go on at my PD like this all the time. I am sure every department no matter how small has at least one of these transactions a year.

cacop
05-18-2011, 3:55 PM
I understood that. I was just showing how the whole large capacity permit thing is completely stupid. Since any sworn LEO can import without a permit and sell without a permit, why aren't more LEOs making a few bucks on the side? Why does Ca DOJ make such a big deal about passing out large capacity permits to FFL holders if LEOs can do the same thing with ZERO regulation?

It would only be a few bucks on the side.

What am I going to do buy mags from a dealer out of state for cheaper than a local gunstore and then pay for shipping? The only way I could get a good enough of a price break to make it worth my while I would need an FFL. Just to sell mags? Okay maybe I could pick up some business selling guns to cops for cost +10% but there really isn't that much business for me unless I advertize far and wide. It is just not worth the time and money I would spend to do it. I would be better off doing construction on my days off.

ap3572001
05-18-2011, 4:15 PM
That's pretty much what gun stores do. My local store has at least 2-3 guns in their shelf that says "for LE only" at any one time. In theory you could split up the sale. Sell the pistol w/o mags or with a 10 rounder to non LE and then sell the mags to LE.

All kinds of deals go on at my PD like this all the time. I am sure every department no matter how small has at least one of these transactions a year.

Thanks. I rather sell everything to another LEO.

Jonathan Doe
05-18-2011, 6:29 PM
I have bought 20 round magazines directly from a firearms manufacture. How does that apply? I used to give the dealer the letter from the department to buy a std capacity magazine until a few years ago. But, I don't have to. They must have changed the law.

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 8:06 PM
I have bought 20 round magazines directly from a firearms manufacture. How does that apply? I used to give the dealer the letter from the department to buy a std capacity magazine until a few years ago. But, I don't have to. They must have changed the law.

This came out a few years back. http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/exemptpo.php

Policy Change Regarding State Exemptions for Authorized Peace Officers

Effective immediately, peace officers who have legislative authority to carry and use firearms may, without a letter signed by the head of their agency or the agency head's designee, purchase non-rostered handguns and/or large capacity magazines. The peace officer must present a valid peace officer identification card and the dealer must retain a copy of the identification card on file. (PC 12132 & 12133). A letter is still required from the head of the agency to exempt the peace officer from the ten day waiting period. (PC 12078).

Jonathan Doe
05-19-2011, 12:49 PM
I guess I will have to buy some more non roster guns and high capacity magazines within next 1,401 days, before I retire. :D