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snovvman
05-18-2011, 6:44 AM
For LASD, I understand that a Reserve may CCW IF the Sheriff grants the permit. I realize it is highly discretionary, but that is not the point of my question.

Question:
IF a permit is granted, can one carry a weapon of his/her choice, or must one, as a Reserve, carry a weapon that is on the LASD "off-duty" approved list?

I ask because, were a civilian to receive a CCW, he/she may choose from a broad range of weapons available. For a full-time officer, he/she must carry one of the listed off-duty weapons. I just don't know how a Reserve off-duty with a CCW fits in. There are many more compact (LCP, Kel-Tec, etc.) choices that would be preferable carry options.

Thanks.

yzernie
05-18-2011, 7:34 AM
I can't speak for LASD but I know on my department any off duty/CCW for reserves has to be approved through our range and per our policy. We have a pretty broad range of authorized guns.

CaliTheKid
05-23-2011, 10:39 PM
LASD reserves may select up to 3 weapons from the departments approved list for their CCW. Non-approved weapons are not permitted for CCW.

snovvman
05-23-2011, 11:18 PM
LASD reserves may select up to 3 weapons from the departments approved list for their CCW. Non-approved weapons are not permitted for CCW.

So no Ruger LCP or Kel-Tec eh? I presume the approved list you refer is the same as the "approved off-duty" list for full-time Deputies?

Thank you and yzernie for responding.

retired
05-25-2011, 9:19 AM
Even tho retired from LASD, I'd have to agree with CaliTheKid as that was the policy when I was on and I can't imagine it changing tho the particular guns have. Both active and retired were restricted to the same listed weapons for off duty use.

That is why when I was free from those rules, I retired my S&W Model 60 post haste and bought my XD subcompact 9mm.:)

snovvman
05-25-2011, 1:40 PM
That is why when I was free from those rules, I retired my S&W Model 60 post haste and bought my XD subcompact 9mm.:)

Thank you. So that I am clear based on what you wrote, you would not be allowed to carry the XD as a retired Deputy. Correct?

retired
05-25-2011, 3:06 PM
Thank you. So that I am clear based on what you wrote, you would not be allowed to carry the XD as a retired Deputy. Correct?

No. As a retired deputy, I can carry any handgun I want so long as I qualify with it at the dept. range. I have both my Dept. issued ccw (good for 5yrs.) and the National LEOSA one good for one year. My dept. states that if one has the latter, they don't need the former. Since I don't have the best memory in the world and I have forgotten to renew my yearly National one on a couple of occasions in a timely manner, I have both.:o:) I basically only need the National one for when I go to Vegas or Laughlin, since Nv. isn't one of the 13 states that accepts the Ca. ccw.

As I stated, I have carried my XD since about 8 months after I retired in 2003. I still qualify on the Model 60 and also my 92f that I bought from the dept. when I retired for just in case. I know the 92f is too large to really conceal, but if the other two just happen to be in the shop at the same time, I'll be gtg.;) I think I'm going to qualify with my SA Pro 1911 next time also.

snovvman
05-25-2011, 11:16 PM
Thank you Sir. I just read about LEOSA. Interesting stuff. In researching whether LEOSA covers Reserves w/ CCW, I have not been able to find any definitive information. Do you know if LEOSA covers Reserves who have CCW from their department?

Cheers.

Tallship
05-26-2011, 7:14 AM
LEOSA covers reserves whether or not they have a CCW from their department. The problem you have is that if your department does not want to issue you a CCW and you press the LEOSA issue, you will soon become a former reserve.

DDXVfan
05-26-2011, 3:48 PM
Any opinion on LEOSA and retired reserves?

Tallship
05-26-2011, 4:38 PM
Retired reserves are now eligible for LEOSA after the latest amendments. The wording was changed from "retired" to "separated". In the original version the term retired really didn't apply to reserves as there was no "job" to retire from. Now with separated, if you meet the time and other requirements, you are eligible.

DDXVfan
05-26-2011, 6:06 PM
Thanks for the info Tallship, sent you a PM.

jerkyg
06-01-2011, 7:38 PM
FYI...

I know of a California Appellate court decision that came out in '93. It was brought to court by the Union of Orange County Peace Officers against Orange County. It was regarding the Chief's of their repspective departments telling off-duty officers whether they could carry and if so, what they could carry. The 3 judge panel...among other interesting conclusions...determined that no Chief had the right to say that any peace officer (even those with limited peace officer powers, i.e., deputy corners. Yes, coroners...!?) could not carry off-duty or what he/she could carry. That the judges surmised that if given that discretionary power...they could theoretically tell you that you can't use that new .300 Winchester Mag deer rifle or that .454 Casull. With that said...and with this precedent appellate case...I don't see how a department can regulate what a full-time LEO carries off-duty.

Very interesting read...I did find it here on this forum and is a good read.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=198201

Stay safe all...

For LASD, I understand that a Reserve may CCW IF the Sheriff grants the permit. I realize it is highly discretionary, but that is not the point of my question.

Question:
IF a permit is granted, can one carry a weapon of his/her choice, or must one, as a Reserve, carry a weapon that is on the LASD "off-duty" approved list?

I ask because, were a civilian to receive a CCW, he/she may choose from a broad range of weapons available. For a full-time officer, he/she must carry one of the listed off-duty weapons. I just don't know how a Reserve off-duty with a CCW fits in. There are many more compact (LCP, Kel-Tec, etc.) choices that would be preferable carry options.

Thanks.

Sacmedic
06-01-2011, 10:31 PM
Jerkyg,

I've read the same case. There are also cases that made it to the appellate level for welfare fraud investigators and deputy probation officers regarding the same issue. Seems to be fairly well settled. A designated peace officer, whether he/she carries on duty and despite what their employer says, may carry off duty without restriction by said employer.

Regards,

Sacmedic

Ron-Solo
06-02-2011, 12:59 AM
Jerkyg,

I've read the same case. There are also cases that made it to the appellate level for welfare fraud investigators and deputy probation officers regarding the same issue. Seems to be fairly well settled. A designated peace officer, whether he/she carries on duty and despite what their employer says, may carry off duty without restriction by said employer.

Regards,

Sacmedic

Does not apply to reserves, who must have a CCW permit. They do not have a 12025/12031 pc exemption like a full time, salaried peace officer.

While a peace officer carrying an off duty gun not authorized by his/her department would not be violating law, they would be violating department policy and be subject to administrative disciplinary action. Additionally, the individual would open themselves up to civil liability and the department would leave you hung out to dry in civil court.

LASD requires you to carry a firearm from their approved list, and they are currently issuing the Beretta 92F as the standard issue firearm. They are issuing the Smith & Weson M&P 9mm on a test basis.

The minute I retired, I could carry anything I wanted, but I also lose that nice umbrella of protection provided by the Department.

snovvman
06-02-2011, 6:38 AM
Thanks everyone for your comments. :cheers2:

It appears that 832.6 PC grants a Level 1 (designated) Reserve to have 830.1 powers, which would lead me to interpret that they would enjoy 12031 exemption (department policy notwithstanding).

But nevermind that...

For Level 2 and 3s, who do require CCW, and in the case of LASD, I reiterate my original question:

Question:
IF a permit is granted, can one carry a weapon of his/her choice, or must one, as a Reserve, carry a weapon that is on the LASD "off-duty" approved list?

I ask because, were a civilian to receive a CCW, he/she may choose from a broad range of weapons available. For a full-time officer, he/she must carry one of the listed off-duty weapons. I just don't know how a Reserve off-duty with a CCW fits in. There are many more compact (LCP, Kel-Tec, etc.) choices that would be preferable carry options.


It is clear that a full-time Deputy must carry the Department authorized off-duty weapon to be in compliance with policy. If, a Reserve, allowed to carry under CCW (where the application of CCW was granted under "Reserve" rather than "Regular"), must they also carry a weapon off of the LASD list?

Also, reading the LEOSA, it would appear that active reserves (in addition to retired reserves by the amendment "separated") are covered by LEOSA, presuming they are issued a CCW. Am I correct?

Cheers.

retired
06-02-2011, 3:39 PM
If, a Reserve, allowed to carry under CCW (where the application of CCW was granted under "Reserve" rather than "Regular"), must they also carry a weapon off of the LASD list?

As Ron said above, LASD requires you carry a firearm from their approved list. If you wish to remain a reserve with them, it would be best to stay with that list.

If you were involved in an incident and you were not carrying a dept. approved firearm, it wouldn't matter if the shooting was a good one. You wouldn't be a reserve anymore more than likely and when the lawsuit is filed (there will be one), the Dept. won't be there to help you.

Ron-Solo
06-02-2011, 7:50 PM
To put it as briefly as possible, if the Department issues you a CCW based on your reserve status, you MUST carry a Departmentally authorized weapon.

And as far as level 1 goes, you still need a CCW because you don't meet the "full time, salaried" requirements to be exempt from 12025/12031 PC.

Reserves can be terminated at the discretion of the unit commander (Captain) and are not afforded any civil service protection. They serve at the discretion of the Sheriff.

That said, reserves fulfill a very valuable position and serve with honor and distinction.

jerkyg
06-02-2011, 10:24 PM
Hi Solo,

I believe that the point of the appellate court addressed that point...and it was one of their main points...was that even department policy could not dictate what off-duty weapons were carried. And the judges made the point that the department did not have the authority to dictate what or what not they could carry. If you read the judgement...it is spelled out. I spoke with one of the head guys in the union of Orange County Union numerous times...and that was their whole point. It was not only a matter of the penal code. Or, what it said or did not say...but that no chief had that authority...regardless of department policy. They did not have a say in what an off-duty officer could carry.

Read the decision and tell me I am wrong. But, that is what the Union won in the judgement. And if you read it differently...I can clear it up by contacting my guy at Orange County Peace officer Union.

This decision had nothing to do with reserve officers.

Bottom line...I agree that Orange County basically said that they would not be liable for any use of a weapon in a fire fight...and wanted to remove themselves from any liability.

Stay safe...

Does not apply to reserves, who must have a CCW permit. They do not have a 12025/12031 pc exemption like a full time, salaried peace officer.

While a peace officer carrying an off duty gun not authorized by his/her department would not be violating law, they would be violating department policy and be subject to administrative disciplinary action. Additionally, the individual would open themselves up to civil liability and the department would leave you hung out to dry in civil court.

LASD requires you to carry a firearm from their approved list, and they are currently issuing the Beretta 92F as the standard issue firearm. They are issuing the Smith & Weson M&P 9mm on a test basis.

The minute I retired, I could carry anything I wanted, but I also lose that nice umbrella of protection provided by the Department.

snovvman
06-02-2011, 11:33 PM
As Ron said above, LASD requires you carry a firearm from their approved list. If you wish to remain a reserve with them, it would be best to stay with that list.

To put it as briefly as possible, if the Department issues you a CCW based on your reserve status, you MUST carry a Departmentally authorized weapon.

That said, reserves fulfill a very valuable position and serve with honor and distinction.

Thank you Sirs. Will you please comment on a Reserve's qualification with LEOSA?

Tallship
06-03-2011, 3:57 PM
Thank you Sirs. Will you please comment on a Reserve's qualification with LEOSA?

See my post #9 above.

socalblue
06-03-2011, 5:14 PM
To put it as briefly as possible, if the Department issues you a CCW based on your reserve status, you MUST carry a Departmentally authorized weapon.

And as far as level 1 goes, you still need a CCW because you don't meet the "full time, salaried" requirements to be exempt from 12025/12031 PC.

Reserves can be terminated at the discretion of the unit commander (Captain) and are not afforded any civil service protection. They serve at the discretion of the Sheriff.

That said, reserves fulfill a very valuable position and serve with honor and distinction.

A Level-1(d) has full time authority & status & should be exempt from 12025/12031 PC. 12027(a)(1)(A) specifically lists 830.1 with no other qualifiers so that should mean Level-1(d) reserves.

jerkyg
06-04-2011, 7:08 PM
Howdy Socal,

I was a reserve over a quarter of century ago...yeah, I know...I am old. But, at that time I was a Level 1. And we could not carry off-duty. I knew of some departments that would require their reserves to even check their badge and ID when they left the department. We could not even get a CCW from our own Chief. They trusted us to carry on-duty, with a shotgun...but, not off...ridiculous. Other departments give automatic CCW's to their reserves...that makes sense.

Thus, unless there was a change to this in the penal code...you are not allowed to carry off-duty without a CCW.

Stay safe...


A Level-1(d) has full time authority & status & should be exempt from 12025/12031 PC. 12027(a)(1)(A) specifically lists 830.1 with no other qualifiers so that should mean Level-1(d) reserves.

socalblue
06-04-2011, 8:47 PM
Howdy Socal,

I was a reserve over a quarter of century ago...yeah, I know...I am old. But, at that time I was a Level 1. And we could not carry off-duty. I knew of some departments that would require their reserves to even check their badge and ID when they left the department. We could not even get a CCW from our own Chief. They trusted us to carry on-duty, with a shotgun...but, not off...ridiculous. Other departments give automatic CCW's to their reserves...that makes sense.

Thus, unless there was a change to this in the penal code...you are not allowed to carry off-duty without a CCW.

Stay safe...

I'm that old too :-) (Got my 1st badge in 1981). I should have been more specific in my reply to Ron in that the 12027 PC states "Full time, salaried" ONLY for out of state LEOS.

jerkyg
06-05-2011, 6:54 PM
Ok SoCal,

You got me on being old...got mine in '83...so, yes you are old...LOL!!!

Stay safe...

Jared1981
06-06-2011, 9:53 AM
Even tho retired from LASD, I'd have to agree with CaliTheKid as that was the policy when I was on and I can't imagine it changing tho the particular guns have. Both active and retired were restricted to the same listed weapons for off duty use.

That is why when I was free from those rules, I retired my S&W Model 60 post haste and bought my XD subcompact 9mm.:)

Remember that they have no say over LEOSA. If you qualify with a semi-auto pistol, you can carry any semi-auto pistol under LEOSA.

If LASD gives you guys a hard time, I would just recertify every 5 years for your CA carry card and for LEOSA, I would qualify under any department that is friendly.

I would say a department is friendly when they let you qualify with a semi-auto pistol, revolver, shotgun, and a semi-auto rifle. :)

45Rimless-Smokeless
06-08-2011, 1:04 PM
Well, as to old timers, I was sworn in 1971, and did 30 as a Level 1d patrol reserve.

In the case of my department, they are still "formulating policy" with regard to the modified Federal law, and will presently not allow one year qualifications for former reserves. Since the law does not specify that the qualification be done at a specific agency, does anyone know of one who will do the qualification in the Southern California area?

jerkyg
06-08-2011, 8:15 PM
45...

I just got out of my wheel chair....thank you for your service. And I thought I was old...LOL...you are my idol. Most of the "OG's"...Old Guys for you youngsters...are people you need to listen to...I still do.

Stay safe....


Well, as to old timers, I was sworn in 1971, and did 30 as a Level 1d patrol reserve.

In the case of my department, they are still "formulating policy" with regard to the modified Federal law, and will presently not allow one year qualifications for former reserves. Since the law does not specify that the qualification be done at a specific agency, does anyone know of one who will do the qualification in the Southern California area?

snovvman
06-08-2011, 11:02 PM
I speak to retired LASD Deputies often, and I am always awed by their experiences and wisdom. It is not easy being an LEO, even from the moment of the application, through the background and the Academy. It takes a special kind. The public simply does not understand or cannot relate. Either way, I know it is often a thankless job. Thank you for your service.