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View Full Version : uos guys vrs ccw guys vrs the rest of us.


rdmmdr
05-16-2011, 7:03 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.

How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has.

rick

chadd446
05-16-2011, 7:09 PM
Just get a ccw and carry as you wish. I wish I could see the future like you, and know I would never need a gun in a restaurant or mall.

Reconsnake
05-16-2011, 7:09 PM
To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.


rick


If you think this is even remotely close to reality, then you have really never carried a firearm, concealed or otherwise. God made men, and Colt made them equal. You arent going to strongarm anyone when they have a firearm as well. Good luck with this idea.

BigfootHunter
05-16-2011, 7:12 PM
Not that I agree with the OP, but loaded versus unloaded - I think at the very least he's got the one up on the UOC patron in this scenario...

Looks like UOC got a kick in the junk today from the state assembly, bummer. I don't think it's a good idea, but I did contact my assemblyman who said he was a definite "NO" on the legislation banning UOC. Too bad there weren't more that agreed. One more gun right erodes right in front of us.

Also, sad to see this posted in a "versus" type of scenario - erosion of rights affects all gun owners. Don't give away UOC and be surprised when CCW becomes more difficult down the road in even more counties (oh wait, this happened today in a Yolo County).

Peter.Steele
05-16-2011, 8:08 PM
To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.


Well, see, here's the thing. You're right: California is not the wild west.

If you draw down on me when I haven't made a threatening move toward you, your place of business is going to very shortly become my place of business, as part of the settlement for the civil suit for - at a minimum - assault, false imprisonment, and a few other things as well.

Realistically though, I'd probably wind up having to split the proceeds of the sale of your business - and your house, your truck, etc. - with whichever defense attorney you retained to defend you against the criminal charges the DA would be probably bringing against you.

Andy Taylor
05-16-2011, 8:14 PM
"To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west."

If this didn't end with one or both of you dead, then you would be in prison for a very long time for assault with a deadly weapon. If the UOC was dead, you would be in prison for murder.

Army
05-16-2011, 8:15 PM
Only question I have for you: I carry my 1911 condition3 with a magazine inserted. What possible way will you know if it's unloaded?

Also, if you do draw on me and force me to the ground, Guess what? I will own everything that used to be yours after I sue the hell out of you for illegal use of deadly force, brandishing, illegal detainment, and possibly kidnapping. Not to mention armed robbery for stealing my gun.

I will pile all your former belongings in a big pile on your former front yard, and send you pictures in jail of all of it burning. I will then allow my new house to used as a crack house and graffiti art canvas.

But...nice try at playing the tough guy :)

DannyZRC
05-16-2011, 8:16 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.

How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has.

rick

so your argument is that carrying a gun is a bad thing, for what reason exactly?

if you have no reason to use it, what harm is there in having a holstered gun?

I doubt you have an articulate response, and I'm certain that you don't have a convincing one.

ilkhan
05-16-2011, 8:18 PM
To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.
Good luck with that.
You'd be the one escorted from the building, in handcuffs, for assault with a deadly weapon, battery, and theft. And whatever other crimes the above have mentioned. Assuming one or both of you aren't on their way to the hospital or morgue.

I agree with you that UOC is stupid, but stupidity isn't a crime. You can ask a patron to leave, you cannot attack them.

stitch_paradox
05-16-2011, 8:19 PM
To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.



wow.. with an attitude like that, i'm glad you don't CCW. heck don't carry a gun ever.

NorCal Einstein
05-16-2011, 8:28 PM
Sorry, can't take you seriously with all those grammar mistakes in your post. How can you expect to get us all charged up with UOC, LOC, etc. when we have a hard time trying to figure out what you're saying.

And :rofl: at the guys ready to take your possessions at the first false move you make. If they light the fire to it, I want to pour some gas on top.

ZombieTactics
05-16-2011, 8:33 PM
... To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west. ...

If someone makes no threatening moves, your rights extend only so far as asking them to leave the premises. If they refuse - but exhibit no other threatening behavior - your only LEGAL option is to call the police, make a trespassing complaint and have them arrested as such.

Drawing down on an innocent person who has threatened you in no way is a FELONY. For all your protestations regarding the "Wild West", you seem to be the only one exhibiting "cowboy" tendencies, in the worst sense of that word. You are reckless, lawless and a bit too quick on the draw. It's not a stretch to imagine you're a bit trigger happy as well.

Regardless of your chronological age, I suggest it's time that you actually grow up.

Bigtwin
05-16-2011, 8:34 PM
"While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded "

The rest of your post does NOT support the first comment you made!
As for your actions......well I think you now know! I am not a fan of UOC, but I do believe it is a right. Your alleged actions upon a person UOC will NOT bennifit you in any way shape or form.
Though I wonder if you own a bussiness or are just dreaming on the nets, and showing how tough you "would" be!

Fjold
05-16-2011, 8:37 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.

How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has.

rick

Congratulations Rick, you just won the stupid award for the week and you're probably a strong contender for the stupid award of the year.


Please post the name of your business so that I can walk in UOC'ing.

c3 rolling
05-16-2011, 8:43 PM
What good is a lawsuit if your dead due to a trigger happy 5150 business owner? lol .

84Runner
05-16-2011, 8:43 PM
I don't think we should fuel his ignorance guys. He's a newer member than I am with more post. I'm sure most of them are ignorant post with the intentions of getting under a true Americans skin.

JeremyS
05-16-2011, 8:50 PM
But with california gun rules the pistol under the front seat of the pickup on the ranch and/or going to it requires a ccw. ...I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw.... I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.
So what's the problem here? Get a CCW and do what you want. What the freakin' hell are you complaining about? You're lucky enough to live in one of the few counties in this state that will actually issue a CCW and you've figured out a really weird, asinine way to nitpick what does or does not require it? You'd rather have a loaded gun contained in a safe somewhere in your "passenger compartment" without needing a CCW than just getting the license and putting it in your center console or on your person or out of sight wherever the heck you want, including in a safe if you so [oddly] choose? What's wrong with you, man?


To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos.
Like everyone else said, you'd be royally F'd if you did something like this to a law-abiding citizen who made no threat to you. If you do not want people to carry a firearm into your business, it is YOUR responsibility to put appropriate signage at the entrance. That puts you in a better position, but you still can't assault somebody and detain them against their will.

themailman
05-16-2011, 8:55 PM
OP, what the name of your business?

I could hardly make out what you were saying in the first place, but like we've all stated: Any one of us would be more than happy to see your Anti-RKBA *** put in jail for assault.

InGrAM
05-16-2011, 9:18 PM
TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is the name of your business? Cough it up...

eltorito
05-16-2011, 9:19 PM
pure troll smell here (op)

drdarrin@sbcglobal.net
05-16-2011, 9:34 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago,.....
rick

Sorry if I'm off base here but I smell troll! Looks like some of my fellow members do too!

Based on the other posts you have made in the month or so that you have been a member of CalGuns and the above ill considered remarks, you have been a very busy boy. You've gotten divorced in the very recent past, retaken up reloading, renewed your NRA membership for 2 years, offered advise on free floating a barrel (really? 320 grid sandpaper using the barrel as a guide?) etc, etc, etc.

And this post smells like bait since you have not responded to a single post in defense of your original rant. With friends like you in support of the 2A, who needs enemies?

Cokebottle
05-16-2011, 9:37 PM
To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos.
You would be the one being "escourted" from the building by the local leos, with a charge of misdemeanor brandishing.
10 years no guns for you.
2nd conviction, no guns for you for life.

No guns for you for life on the first conviction if you brandish in the presence of an officer.


Now go away troll.

robcoe
05-16-2011, 9:41 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.

How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has.

rick

ok, 1 my brain hurts from sorting out the "5 tequila" grammer.

2, if I ever uoc(I dont, but thats beside the point) and you do that I will be sure to let you know how the buisness my lawyer and I now own is doing.

3, I smell a troll.

NorCal916
05-16-2011, 9:56 PM
My head hurts after reading this thread...

Z_SprizL
05-16-2011, 10:24 PM
Damn Rick you are a moron and have no concept of the law. It's sad that you own a business much less a firearm, but I'm sure if you run your business with half the ignorance that you have displayed then bankruptcy will be in your future before the hypothetical scenerio you mentioned wil ever take place. You should be more concerned with a criminal walking into your store armed with a mask on then a law abiding citizen.

rdmmdr
05-16-2011, 10:37 PM
While i figured that this would be an issue, I never figured that anyone from cal guns would attack an individual trying to project a personal feeling on this subject. You have no reason to reasonably expect danger inside my place of business. Since I am not in the business of selling guns or supporting them, there is no reason to carry one into my shop unless you intend to provoke a reaction.

Show me case law that if you walk in to my shop carrying a gun uoc, and I put you on the floor with a loc in order to determine your intension's that I would be liable. You can't. I have the right and a duty to secure my place of business and i am required to secure that establishment in order to protect my customers and employees.

I have held a nra life member ticket since 1984, us army 67n20 4/12 air cav, I have owned guns longer then half of you people have been alive. What I was looking for was an alternative to what we have now. And yes i will give my address and phone along with my real name unlike you punks that have threatened me.

richard miller
2487 s jamesom ave
fresno, ca
93706

559-270-7113

vintagearms
05-16-2011, 10:43 PM
My head hurts after reading this thread...

Yup.

DannyZRC
05-16-2011, 10:44 PM
mr miller, I think that despite your longtime gun ownership and service record, that you are uncomfortable with the idea of an armed citizenry, which is what is on display by people open carrying their firearms.

you say that even though you have been a victim of violent crime, that you would not adopt the CCW lifestyle. can you articulate why?

what is it about an armed citizenry that makes you so uncomfortable, and do you not understand that a right for the citizenry to be armed is the explicit reason for the 2nd amendment to the US constitution?

QQQ
05-16-2011, 10:48 PM
It's already legal to carry an unloaded gun in a locked container in the passenger compartment of your car.

BigfootHunter
05-16-2011, 11:11 PM
Just curious, is that the business address? If so, what type of business is it? Looks like a vineyard? Do you actually have a shop/storefront or is it just fields and outbuildings?

If Fresno is such a CCW friendly place, why not get one? It seems like it would solve your problems of carrying in a vehicle? Heck you don't have to take it into the McDonalds with you, that's your prerogative.

I guess I don't see a reason to try and enact another piece of legislation when there already seems to be a solution to your problem, unless you're unable to get a CCW for some reason or another.

wildhawker
05-16-2011, 11:13 PM
That alternative is "shall issue" (or permitless) carry of a loaded, functional firearm.

Fresno isn't so good for CCW when it takes a year to *start* the process.

-Brandon

ETA: The NRA card is immaterial. Even some anti-gun Sheriffs have them. Memberships < Philosophy.

While i figured that this would be an issue, I never figured that anyone from cal guns would attack an individual trying to project a personal feeling on this subject. You have no reason to reasonably expect danger inside my place of business. Since I am not in the business of selling guns or supporting them, there is no reason to carry one into my shop unless you intend to provoke a reaction.

Show me case law that if you walk in to my shop carrying a gun uoc, and I put you on the floor with a loc in order to determine your intension's that I would be liable. You can't. I have the right and a duty to secure my place of business and i am required to secure that establishment in order to protect my customers and employees.

I have held a nra life member ticket since 1984, us army 67n20 4/12 air cav, I have owned guns longer then half of you people have been alive. What I was looking for was an alternative to what we have now. And yes i will give my address and phone along with my real name unlike you punks that have threatened me.

richard miller
2487 s jamesom ave
fresno, ca
93706

559-270-7113

rdmmdr
05-16-2011, 11:18 PM
Danny

You were the only articulate one that has reponded to this post so far. When I was mugged I was 20 and would have lost any firearm that I would have been carring. There is a good chance that that weapon would have been used against me. Currently I try to avoid that problem.

rick

Turo
05-16-2011, 11:21 PM
While i figured that this would be an issue, I never figured that anyone from cal guns would attack an individual trying to project a personal feeling on this subject.

Are you serious? You told an entire gun forum that you would point a loaded gun at them and threaten to shoot them if they carried a gun into your store? That is insane!

This has got to be the worst troll ever.
http://moderateleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/failedtroll.jpg

adrenaline
05-16-2011, 11:29 PM
What I was looking for was an alternative to what we have now.

Let's see what do we have now?

- The ability to carry (if you choose) unloaded...open carry (an option...not the best).
- LUCC (locked unloaded concealed carry)...another option...not ideal.
- CCW: In my most humblest opinion, the best method. Drawback being that there are no "Shall issue" in all counties (it should be) and cost to obtain should in itself be a violation to the 2nd.

I have a gorgeous wife and three beautiful young children. I don't ever expect to use my firearm, but if the situation ever came up, I will do what I need to in order to keep everyone including myself safe from harm.

Think of the fire extinguisher analogy. If you and/or your family is a house and a firearm is your extinguisher....

What is this alternative you speak of? I'm all ears if it is better than what we have now and it doesn't require me to remove a fire extinguisher from my house.

Rekrab
05-16-2011, 11:34 PM
richard miller
2487 s jamesom ave
fresno, ca
93706

559-270-7113

I hope you don't care about that phone number or address because sticking them both online is a pretty horrible idea. :eek:

InGrAM
05-16-2011, 11:41 PM
http://www.prucalifornia.com/Search/PropDetail.aspx?&listingid=203-3-352154&searchID=11185117&ResultsType=SearchResult

The TROLL is selling the vineyard. Or it isn't his. I bet its the second.

sigfan91
05-16-2011, 11:48 PM
While i figured that this would be an issue, I never figured that anyone from cal guns would attack an individual trying to project a personal feeling on this subject. You have no reason to reasonably expect danger inside my place of business. Since I am not in the business of selling guns or supporting them, there is no reason to carry one into my shop unless you intend to provoke a reaction.

Show me case law that if you walk in to my shop carrying a gun uoc, and I put you on the floor with a loc in order to determine your intension's that I would be liable. You can't. I have the right and a duty to secure my place of business and i am required to secure that establishment in order to protect my customers and employees.

I have held a nra life member ticket since 1984, us army 67n20 4/12 air cav, I have owned guns longer then half of you people have been alive. What I was looking for was an alternative to what we have now. And yes i will give my address and phone along with my real name unlike you punks that have threatened me.

richard miller
2487 s jamesom ave
fresno, ca
93706

559-270-7113

It seems like you're the one here looking for a reaction and have threatened people first. Typical self righteous liberal...

DannyZRC
05-16-2011, 11:51 PM
Danny

You were the only articulate one that has reponded to this post so far. When I was mugged I was 20 and would have lost any firearm that I would have been carring. There is a good chance that that weapon would have been used against me. Currently I try to avoid that problem.

rick

why would you have lost your firearm? I am assuming it is because you were caught unaware by your attacker, so bear with me in that assumption for the next points.

Is it good that you didn't have a firearm because you were not paying attention, and because you weren't paying attention you were surprised, and because you were surprised you believe that you would have lost control of your firearm to your attacker who would have at best stolen it and at worst harmed you with it?

Is the solution in the above scenario that you should have no firearm on your person, in the event you are surprised? Would it be prudent to try to always be attentive of your surroundings, in order that you avoid being ambushed?

If you are attentive, are you better served being disarmed or armed? I would argue that you are safer armed and attentive, than either disarmed and attentive, or disarmed and inattentive.

if you are armed and inattentive, I still don't necessarily concede that you are by definition in greater danger, if your weapon is concealed and in a decent holster, it is reasonable that it would remain concealed throughout your encounter (though also possible that it does not).


That concludes my response to your post, rdmmdr, but I'd also like to mention that you should probably reconsider your position on how you would deal with open carriers. I believe that the response you laid out is illegal, but it is also unethical. someone carrying a firearm is not posing a direct threat to you, and you should not treat them as such.


To the peanut gallery posting troll pics and laughing and pointing, grow up.
yeah, we get it, you're "one of the guys" here on calguns, you believe what you think you're supposed to believe and you really desperately need to demonstrate that you belong by being insulting and childish to people that have different opinions. we get it.

sigfan91
05-16-2011, 11:51 PM
http://www.prucalifornia.com/Search/PropDetail.aspx?&listingid=203-3-352154&searchID=11185117&ResultsType=SearchResult

The TROLL is selling the vineyard. Or it isn't his. I bet its the second.

Ohhhh...he could have some beef with the owner of the property.

Is there some kind of law we can use against this kind of behavior? Isn't there an anti-bullying lawcoming into effect?

Trace his IP?

Ranger20
05-17-2011, 12:10 AM
http://i908.photobucket.com/albums/ac288/Ranger20/129009349319763001.jpg

robcoe
05-17-2011, 12:18 AM
http://www.prucalifornia.com/Search/PropDetail.aspx?&listingid=203-3-352154&searchID=11185117&ResultsType=SearchResult

The TROLL is selling the vineyard. Or it isn't his. I bet its the second.

I'll go with he just got fired from there(probably for reasions related to his seemingly drunk grammer, maybe a bit to much quality testing of the final product), so now he is trying to get people to call and harass the actual owner.

porkchop
05-17-2011, 12:21 AM
You realize that:

a) "Show me case law that if you walk in to my shop carrying a gun uoc, and I put you on the floor with a loc in order to determine your intension's that I would be liable. You can't. I have the right and a duty to secure my place of business and i am required to secure that establishment in order to protect my customers and employees."

Having a drawn loaded weapon pointed laterally and at the ready is far more dangerous to the shop occupied by your customers and employees than someone with an unloaded and holstered firearm. There is also abundant case law available for the brandishing of a deadly weapon. You would be guilty of a criminal misdemeanor offense. To spell it out: Forcing someone on the ground using a loaded firearm is a hallmark 'rude, angry, or threatening' definition listed in CA PC 417. And because it obviously has to be explained to you: UOC is not brandishing.

b) "I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields."

Two legged threats do not limit themselves to operating in "the fields"

c) "For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime?"

MOST people want a ccw so they never HAVE to be a 'victum' of a violent crime

d) there is no reason to carry one into my shop unless you intend to provoke a reaction.

Why don't you just not have a reaction. If someone comes in your shop with an unholstered firearm raised at the ready, then yes by all means have a reaction. Do you have a 'reaction' when people walk into your store with a pocket knife clipped to their pocket? Knife sheathed on their belt? Hands attached to their body not clenched in fists?

sigfan91
05-17-2011, 12:32 AM
I have ... had the **** kicked out of me...

rick

Gee...I wonder why...:rolleyes:

Joe
05-17-2011, 12:38 AM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.

How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has.

rick

That's good. And I'm sure others have posted this already but you would be arrested for brandishing and you'd lose your right to own guns.

JaeFern
05-17-2011, 1:03 AM
If someone makes no threatening moves, your rights extend only so far as asking them to leave the premises. If they refuse - but exhibit no other threatening behavior - your only LEGAL option is to call the police, make a trespassing complaint and have them arrested as such.

Drawing down on an innocent person who has threatened you in no way is a FELONY. For all your protestations regarding the "Wild West", you seem to be the only one exhibiting "cowboy" tendencies, in the worst sense of that word. You are reckless, lawless and a bit too quick on the draw. It's not a stretch to imagine you're a bit trigger happy as well.

Regardless of your chronological age, I suggest it's time that you actually grow up.

That

451040
05-17-2011, 3:47 AM
How about ...


No.

dirtykoala
05-17-2011, 4:53 AM
seems like living in BF nowhere got to this guys head.

drdarrin@sbcglobal.net
05-17-2011, 7:03 AM
google the address boys and girls.

Foriegn power
05-17-2011, 8:06 AM
Idiot, ignorant fool wasting a post the O.P.

MossbergMan
05-17-2011, 9:14 AM
Mr. Miller, You cannot be serious about assaulting with a deadly weapon someone practicing a lawful act.
In law enforcement we called these things clues....first criminals DON'T WEAR THEIR GUNS IN PLAIN SIGHT. Second, because you are aware of the Unloaded Open Carry movement you are forwarned, thus without signage of "NO WEAPONS ALLOWED" your use of force is excessive.
I have to agree with some of the other posters and you sir are a troll. If you don't agree with the UOC movement, then just say so, don't be a hard guy.

And if that is your real information....foolish can be added to your list of achievments.

scarville
05-17-2011, 9:43 AM
http://www.heronforge.net/blog/wacko-troll.jpg

ruchik
05-17-2011, 10:30 AM
You have no reason to reasonably expect danger inside my place of business. Since I am not in the business of selling guns or supporting them, there is no reason to carry one into my shop unless you intend to provoke a reaction.


There are few jobs anywhere anyone would "expect" danger inside a business. Crime doesn't exactly follow well-planned rules. I'm sure the Virginia Tech students had no reason to reasonably expect danger in their classrooms. Neither, I suspect, did the customers at Citibank in Cupertino (an affluent city in the South Bay) when it got robbed a few months back. They were not in the business of selling or supporting guns, either.

You also presume to know the intent of someone who does carry a gun into your business. Can you prove human intent? You can make a case that based on the individual's actions/words, that you had reasonable cause to discern the intent, but you can't prove it. California isn't the Wild West, but having the mindset of assuming that someone is trying to provoke you without exchanging words is, in my opinion, rather arrogant. So is telling anyone you don't need to expect any danger in your establishment. You are not the police, Superman, or divine intervention. My hats off to you for serving our country, and I have the utmost respect for those who serve, but that does not place you into a higher category of human being or citizen. If I am carrying a gun into your business, and me, without knowing you are the owner, see you approaching me looking like you intend to take me down with a loaded gun, well, I'm pretty sure you aren't bringing me roses. I will respond appropriately with my own weapon. ESPECIALLY if I am unprovoked, received no prior warning, saw no signs saying no weapons allowed, etc. You would react the same, wouldn't you?

The DRis
05-17-2011, 10:36 AM
Only question I have for you: I carry my 1911 condition3 with a magazine inserted. What possible way will you know if it's unloaded?

Also, if you do draw on me and force me to the ground, Guess what? I will own everything that used to be yours after I sue the hell out of you for illegal use of deadly force, brandishing, illegal detainment, and possibly kidnapping. Not to mention armed robbery for stealing my gun.

I will pile all your former belongings in a big pile on your former front yard, and send you pictures in jail of all of it burning. I will then allow my new house to used as a crack house and graffiti art canvas.

But...nice try at playing the tough guy :)

Well said.

Don't feed the troll.

rudeboy3
05-17-2011, 10:38 AM
Y'all be posting in a troll thread.....

zfields
05-17-2011, 10:55 AM
so did you.

camron882
05-17-2011, 11:35 AM
this guy being from fresno, makes me shake my head as a fresnan....and you said if they WALKED UP TO not inside, therefore they would be right if you assaulted them first, you are not a LEO so you have no right outside of in your business to attacke someone and draw down on them.....

QuarterBoreGunner
05-17-2011, 11:51 AM
Mr. Miller, as has already been articulated by previous members, there are several flaws in your logic, which I will leave others to expand upon.

My .02? A while back when, a concealed firearm saved my life and the lives of two others with me.
This is not hearsay, or supposition, or even a 'what if'. A very bad guy had a loaded weapon pointed at me and the two people with me, he had already demonstrated his willingness to use it. He already stated his intentions to murder us. But a concealed firearm allowed me to put two bullets into him and now he's in prison for, effectively, the rest of his life.

Without it, I would be dead. The two people with me would be dead.

So Mr. Miller, you can go fish.

mossy
05-17-2011, 12:02 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.


How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has.

rick

i smell a brady troll.

desertmedic
05-17-2011, 12:06 PM
Mr. Miller - I say the following with all do respect and i do empathise with your history of being assaulted. But you were in the military sir so you are familiar with the term "situational awareness." Just because one carries a weapon doesnt mean they have some sort of invisible force field around them. If anything they (the CCW holder) has to heighten his/her sense of awareness for the fact that they now are carrying a deadly weapon and if disarmed by a "bad guy" they or the public at large are subject to being shot. That being said a CCW carrier has to increase their level of awareness and avoid those dicey situations that we are all aware of. Drawing ones pistol should always be the last resort not the first. Now I understand that I dont know the specifics of your situation so this is my generic response.

Coming in to a site like this with a very negative tone as you did probaly wasnt the best of ideas. I wish you the best in your endeavours and can only hope that you dont get into another bad situation like you did in your younger years.

My humble 2 cents....

bwiese
05-17-2011, 12:17 PM
To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

Hello Antigun Cowboy...

Firstly, I'm not in support of UOC due to the political ramifications. I'm not be particularly disturbed if soccer moms got their underwear in a twist over the issue - except they unfortunately vote and make funny noises legislators listen to, and new laws clusterf*** a lot of other gun issues.

I also think an unloaded gun is not that bright and is more of a shoot me sign. But it's also in part expressive conduct protected by 1st Amendment as much as the 2nd.

However:

(1) you'd better post a No Guns sign on door of your business. [That also helps me and many others direct
business away from your antigun biz.] If you're gonna be antigun, let people know you are so they can make
appropriate purchasing decisions.]

(2) you need to think twice about your announced stupid behavior, esp. if there's NOT a 'no guns' sign. You'll
likely be the one with legal issues, esp if you don't request them to leave first.

CGF lawyers have already had $$$fun$$$ with several Police Depts/Sheriff's Offices on UOC matters. One outcome
of what you wrote is that (esp with video) if you draw down on the guy and didn't ask him to leave, there's a good
chance the cops check his gun and run him for warrants and if clean let him go - and then YOU GET TO DEAL WITH
LAWYERS.

UOC is not cause for even cops to draw down on nonconfrontational individuals. You don't get any "better" rights
on response.

(3) UOC is a response to discriminatory/abusive CCW issuance processes tainted by politics. Much of this will go away
when CCW is fixed and essentially shall issue policies become normal.

(4) A ton of people enter your store armed already - Fresno area has some fair number of CCWs, and tons of people
from shall-issue Kern (+ other similar counties) pass thru there armed. You just don't know it.

Fresno still has CCW issuance problems that have not been fixed yet - it's not as good as, for example, Kern or
(reformed) Sacramento, for example.)

(5) Ownership of guns "for years" doesn't mean you know much about others' need for protection, esp as viewed thru
your personal lens or personal situation.

The fact you want a 'rancher's exemption' shows you are willing to split the gunrights fight for benefit of one class
of citizens/situations. Please stay out of gun politics, you will just screw us with your incompetency.

J.D.Allen
05-17-2011, 3:37 PM
While i respect your rights to open carry unloaded you freak out the neighbors. For the ccw types how many of you you have been a victum of a violent crime? I have been years ago, mugged and had the **** kicked out of me, and yet would never consider ccw as a way of life. But with california gun rules the pistol under the front saet of the pickup on the ranch and or going to it requires a ccw. Also while hunting on nonpaved roads carring a loaded gun in the truck is a no no.

To the uoc types if you walked into my place of business the first thing I would do is put you on the ground with a loaded weapon, remove your weapon from you and have you escourted from the building by the local leos. California is not the wild west.

I live in fresno county a very good county for ccw. I don't not need to carry a gun in a shoping mall or a restuarant. I need to carry a gun in my work truck in case of dogs and or two legged threats in the fields.

How about this for a suggested law.

With an installed doj handgun safe in the passenger compartment in the vehicle, for individuals that are traveling between workplace and or home to places in the state where loc is approved the possesion of a loaded weapon is authorized.

This solves the problem of the gun under the seat that every rancher has

:rofl2:

Cokebottle
05-17-2011, 6:19 PM
Show me case law that if you walk in to my shop carrying a gun uoc, and I put you on the floor with a loc in order to determine your intension's that I would be liable. You can't. I have the right and a duty to secure my place of business and i am required to secure that establishment in order to protect my customers and employees.
Jury instructions for a brandishing charge:
Brandishing a firearm: (Penal Code section 417(a)(2)

(CALCRIM 983)

To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:

1. The defendant drew or exhibited a firearm in the immediate presence of someone else;
2. The defendant did so in a rude, angry, or threatening manner;
OR
2. The defendant unlawfully used the firearm in a fight or quarrel;

AND
3. The defendant did not act (in self-defense/[or] in defense of someone else).]

Included in the instructions for this crime is CALCRIM 250 (Union of Act and Intent; General Criminal Intent)

Every crime charged in this case requires proof of the union, or joint operation, of act and wrongful intent.

In order to be guilty of the crime of [PC 417(a)(2)], a person must not only commit the prohibited act, but must do so intentionally or on purpose. The act required is explained in the instructions for each crime. However, it is not required that he or she intend to break the law.
If you prone me out while pointing a gun at me, that is absolutely a "rude, angry, or threatening manner"

If I walk into your business with a gun holstered, do not touch it, and make no threats to you or your customers, then it cannot be argued successfully that you acted "in self-defense/[or] in defense of someone else)."

Sorry bucko... Even if you do have signs posted at all entrances to your business prohibiting firearms, the only thing that you can legally do is request that I leave the premises, and if I refuse, you may call the cops and request that I be arrested for trespassing.
Trespassing is not a felony, therefore, the use of deadly force is not warranted should you attempt to make a citizens' arrest.


But you would be going to jail:
Brandishing, assault with a deadly weapon, false imprisonment....

You'd be screwed 5 ways from Sunday.
unlike you punks that have threatened me.
Who has threatened you?

If I walk into your store legally carrying and you prone me out, it is not a threat... it is a promise that you will be going to jail for a very long time.

Bigtwin
05-17-2011, 6:22 PM
Hello Antigun Cowboy...

Firstly, I'm not in support of UOC due to the political ramifications. I'm not be particularly disturbed if soccer moms got their underwear in a twist over the issue - except they unfortunately vote and make funny noises legislators listen to, and new laws clusterf*** a lot of other gun issues.

I also think an unloaded gun is not that bright and is more of a shoot me sign. But it's also in part expressive conduct protected by 1st Amendment as much as the 2nd.

However:

(1) you'd better post a No Guns sign on door of your business. [That also helps me and many others direct
business away from your antigun biz.] If you're gonna be antigun, let people know you are so they can make
appropriate purchasing decisions.]

(2) you need to think twice about your announced stupid behavior, esp. if there's NOT a 'no guns' sign. You'll
likely be the one with legal issues, esp if you don't request them to leave first.

CGF lawyers have already had $$$fun$$$ with several Police Depts/Sheriff's Offices on UOC matters. One outcome
of what you wrote is that (esp with video) if you draw down on the guy and didn't ask him to leave, there's a good
chance the cops check his gun and run him for warrants and if clean let him go - and then YOU GET TO DEAL WITH
LAWYERS.

UOC is not cause for even cops to draw down on nonconfrontational individuals. You don't get any "better" rights
on response.

(3) UOC is a response to discriminatory/abusive CCW issuance processes tainted by politics. Much of this will go away
when CCW is fixed and essentially shall issue policies become normal.

(4) A ton of people enter your store armed already - Fresno area has some fair number of CCWs, and tons of people
from shall-issue Kern (+ other similar counties) pass thru there armed. You just don't know it.

Fresno still has CCW issuance problems that have not been fixed yet - it's not as good as, for example, Kern or
(reformed) Sacramento, for example.)

(5) Ownership of guns "for years" doesn't mean you know much about others' need for protection, esp as viewed thru
your personal lens or personal situation.

The fact you want a 'rancher's exemption' shows you are willing to split the gunrights fight for benefit of one class
of citizens/situations. Please stay out of gun politics, you will just screw us with your incompetency.

THANK YOU! :clap:
Best one to put it in perspective(not a suprise though)!

Mickey D
05-17-2011, 6:45 PM
http://www.prucalifornia.com/Search/PropDetail.aspx?&listingid=203-3-352154&searchID=11185117&ResultsType=SearchResult

The TROLL is selling the vineyard. Or it isn't his. I bet its the second.

Mmmm, Raisins!

UserM4
05-17-2011, 7:09 PM
Sir, criminals don't walk around with a holstered sidearm. When was the last time that you heard of a criminal robbing a place that had a holster on his belt, in the open?

The Bill of Rights explicitly says that we have the right to bare arms. If I choose to protect myself with a firearm, it is no one else's business. I do not have to explain myself to anyone. I do not have to have a reason why I want to carry a firearm.

But with ignorant state and county laws, we're restricted to UOC. And some people have no choice but to UOC and they don't need to explain themselves to you or anyone else.

If you don't like it, post a sign in front of your business. Don't hang around other places where people carry openly. That's it.

When was the last time that a UOC citizen robbed someone? You're worried about the wrong people. Don't waste your time thinking about them. Focus on the real problem, gangs and meth heads.

i<3HK
05-17-2011, 8:27 PM
Are you serious? You told an entire gun forum that you would point a loaded gun at them and threaten to shoot them if they carried a gun into your store? That is insane!

This has got to be the worst troll ever.
http://moderateleft.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/failedtroll.jpg

:iagree:

USMC 82-86
05-17-2011, 9:34 PM
Mr. Miller, it may not have been your intent but, I believe you rubbed a lot of folks here in the wrong way. Having ideas about our current laws or wanting to see change in the current laws is fine. Attacking people who are exercising their rights is not the way to get any kind of positive feedback. Your comments and the tone of your comments made it sound like the citizens should not be allowed to possess much less carry a gun in any fashion outside of their home. Which some see as a first step to disarm the people entirely. Hard to discuss a issue when you attack before the discussion begins.

pyromensch
05-17-2011, 9:48 PM
ok,
"palindrome"
either get a clue

you started this thread, to get a rise, and you got it.

Andy Taylor
05-17-2011, 10:07 PM
Just thought I would add that if this ever did happen, and you acted as you have stated you would, I have no doubt that this very thread would be used against you in court.
Good Day Sir.

Hopalong
05-18-2011, 6:44 AM
I think the bottom line regarding liability would be

Who escalated the situation?

There is an old expression

"Everything in moderation"

CK_32
05-18-2011, 9:56 AM
With that last comment of the OP I kind of don't see you as being fit and safe with a fire arm to be honest... Because if that's the way your thinking of it then 1 you shouldn't have a gun on your person having that kind thought. 2 your almost as anti gun and a lot of anti gun people gun = ahhh evil!! Crime!! Death!!! He's a killer because he has s gun.....

So please state your business and I will gladly never go there or travel any where with in that block of you for fear of my self.

ninjawho?
05-18-2011, 11:56 AM
With that last comment of the OP I kind of don't see you as being fit and safe with a fire arm to be honest... Because if that's the way your thinking of it then 1 you shouldn't have a gun on your person having that kind thought. 2 your almost as anti gun and a lot of anti gun people gun = ahhh evil!! Crime!! Death!!! He's a killer because he has s gun.....

So please state your business and I will gladly never go there or travel any where with in that block of you for fear of my self.

X2..............can I call him an idiot now.....?

AetiusAbove
05-18-2011, 12:23 PM
Why is it that when ever I see threads like this, my spidey sense starts screaming Agent Provocateur! I smell a Brady in calgunner attire.
If I'm just being paranoid then please disregard.:hide:
Oh and I prefer LOC if and when the laws change.

rumblebee
05-18-2011, 12:54 PM
I've created a sign for the OP's store...I'm a giver! :cool:

http://i331.photobucket.com/albums/l464/rumblebee_album/ea5e9e09.jpg

sigfan91
05-18-2011, 2:56 PM
I still think the OP is a disgruntled employee or ex-employee of that place. He's trying to generate some grief for his employer.

Cokebottle
05-18-2011, 6:58 PM
It'll only take one phone call from Kest to 559-270-7113 to find out if the man answering is indeed Richard Miller, and if he is aware of this thread.

If he's genuinely an a-hole, then so be it. He has his opinions and ideas, and they will probably land him in jail some day.

If not, then the ban hammer will swing swift and hard for posting another person's private information. LE may also become involved.

I just find it hard to believe that someone who served in the Army, ostensibly to defend and protect our freedoms, does not today value those freedoms.