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Jack L
05-16-2011, 8:32 AM
Watched this last night on 60 Minutes. Another thing to worry about. I have to say it was troubling to digest. I had no clue about this until last night.

A look at the "sovereign citizen" movement


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/15/60minutes/main20062666.shtml

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 9:23 AM
Yeah, been studying them for a while now... I suspect there are quite a few on this very board as well.

gorn5150
05-16-2011, 9:36 AM
Those guys have been around forever. They were real bad in the Bay Area in the late 70's to mid 80's. Very unreasonable people to deal with and dangerous as all hell. The groups I had dealings with all left the State for Idaho and Kentucky. If you ever run into any of them watch your back.

TRICKSTER
05-16-2011, 11:10 AM
Stopped one for a infraction in the mid 90s. Started with the sovereign citizen, you and the courts don't have any authority over me stuff and refused to sign the cite. After explaining that he could either go to jail now, or walk away after signing a piece of paper that he claimed had no authority over him anyway, he signed the cite.

Falconis
05-16-2011, 11:27 AM
Wonder what he said when said cite turned into a warrant.

mike_the_wino
05-16-2011, 12:04 PM
Not LEO but that was a great segment. Sucks that those guys are out there and I hope none of you have a run in with these wingnuts. Your job is tough enough as it is.

Midian
05-16-2011, 12:20 PM
capitis diminutio maxima

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I think they have real balls, trying to unscrew themselves from the system. Props to 'em.

There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty. This is an obvious hit piece so you won't try anything like this at home. Then again, people believed the already dead Bin Laden was killed on May first then thrown over the side of a boat, so they'll believe anything a three letter news agency says.

Mr.1904
05-16-2011, 12:25 PM
Holy ****!

That stories insane. Where do these people come from?

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 12:32 PM
capitis diminutio maxima

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I think they have real balls, trying to unscrew themselves from the system. Props to 'em.

There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty. This is an obvious hit piece so you won't try anything like this at home. Then again, people believed the already dead Bin Laden was killed on May first then thrown over the side of a boat, so they'll believe anything a three letter news agency says.

Hold on a second... Standing up for liberty is one thing... This is off the reservation. Youtube vids inbound.

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 12:34 PM
hjnQrZ7-Rcg

There are more, but I have to leave right now.

mike_the_wino
05-16-2011, 12:43 PM
capitis diminutio maxima
There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty.
Standing up for your rights is all well and good but this goes a bit out of bounds. The no-driver's license thing is silly. You should be a registered, card-carrying citizen to operate a motor vehicle.

This is an obvious hit piece so you won't try anything like this at home.
One should hope not. Taking a drive with your teenage son and an AK is going to end badly....and in this case tragically. I feel sorry for the kid because he didn't know better. He should have but he didn't. And those two patrol men didn't deserve to be gunned down on the side of the road like that. But for one lunatic those three lives would have gone a different way.

Then again, people believed the already dead Bin Laden was killed on May first then thrown over the side of a boat, so they'll believe anything a three letter news agency says.
wha?!?!? How does bin Laden fit in with 'sovereign citizens'? Are you saying sovereign citizens = al Qaeda? If so, that's about the most sense I have seen on this board.

Midian
05-16-2011, 12:46 PM
Perhaps an alternative to the news agencies finding the most wingnutty versions of this movement for public roll out (again, so you won't try anything like this at home, have your friends laugh at you, and just play guitar hero and be a good serf) would be to research the movement for yourself. Look at the funny hippie! He doesn't dress in dockers like me!

People will believe anything if they're told it often enough: Magic people in the middle east 2000 years ago. Flying Saucers. Planes that pulverize and vanish when they hit the pentagon at 500 MPH. Scary guys with beards that hate your freedoms. Fluoride in the water is good for your child's teeth. Flu shots. Microwaving your food.

Stands to reason the idea of individual liberty and divorcing yourself from the control grid should be demonized for public consumption since other erroneous claims are so easily accepted.

Just sayin'.

TRICKSTER
05-16-2011, 12:48 PM
Holy ****!

That stories insane. Where do these people come from?

Some of them are right here on Calguns. Usually in the 2nd or OT forums. Sometimes they even troll here in the LEO forum.

cruising7388
05-16-2011, 12:52 PM
capitis diminutio maxima

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I think they have real balls, trying to unscrew themselves from the system. Props to 'em.

There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty.

Those who confuse standing up for liberty with killing peace officers and politicians they disagree with are, well, confused.

5shot
05-16-2011, 1:14 PM
Some of them are right here on Calguns. Usually in the 2nd or OT forums. Sometimes they even troll here in the LEO forum.

Yep, and it looks like more will be coming out of the woodwork.

Mr.1904
05-16-2011, 1:31 PM
Perhaps an alternative to the news agencies finding the most wingnutty versions of this movement for public roll out (again, so you won't try anything like this at home, have your friends laugh at you, and just play guitar hero and be a good serf) would be to research the movement for yourself. Look at the funny hippie! He doesn't dress in dockers like me!

People will believe anything if they're told it often enough: Magic people in the middle east 2000 years ago. Flying Saucers. Planes that pulverize and vanish when they hit the pentagon at 500 MPH. Scary guys with beards that hate your freedoms. Fluoride in the water is good for your child's teeth. Flu shots. Microwaving your food.

Stands to reason the idea of individual liberty and divorcing yourself from the control grid should be demonized for public consumption since other erroneous claims are so easily accepted.

Just sayin'.

You're a little too involved my friend. Thinking too much or something.

foxracer151
05-16-2011, 3:13 PM
we had 4 of these guys come to our prison dressed out in US marshals jackets and fake badges and attempt to break out 2 federal inmates

center_x
05-16-2011, 3:33 PM
Fullrearview....on your youtube video.....im thinking hairpull takedown....possibly??? Just don't forget to glove up :-)

I've never heard of this group. Thanks for the heads up.

G1500
05-16-2011, 4:57 PM
hjnQrZ7-Rcg

There are more, but I have to leave right now.

I think I got a contact high from watching that.

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 5:28 PM
Perhaps an alternative to the news agencies finding the most wingnutty versions of this movement for public roll out (again, so you won't try anything like this at home, have your friends laugh at you, and just play guitar hero and be a good serf) would be to research the movement for yourself. Look at the funny hippie! He doesn't dress in dockers like me!

People will believe anything if they're told it often enough: Magic people in the middle east 2000 years ago. Flying Saucers. Planes that pulverize and vanish when they hit the pentagon at 500 MPH. Scary guys with beards that hate your freedoms. Fluoride in the water is good for your child's teeth. Flu shots. Microwaving your food.

Stands to reason the idea of individual liberty and divorcing yourself from the control grid should be demonized for public consumption since other erroneous claims are so easily accepted.

Just sayin'.

Hey, on the flip side, some of them really sound like a lot of freedom loving CGNers here... Not all of them are fully involved as what has been shown here, but those who are what I will say, :moderates" are not so quick to distance themselves from your friend in Berkley, you Kane and his son.

Here is a guy who sounds a lot like most here on CGN...

Req_ApifWMc&feature=fvsr

He sounds a lot like most sane CGNers huh... The thing is, and I feel a lot of people on here don't understand this or believe it, the constitution IS open for interpretation... Some think the 2A gives them the right to own a nuke... Others feel its a collective right, and only applies to the national guard. That's why we have the SCOTUS, and separation of powers. Does the SCOTUS get thing wrong sometimes??? Sure. Things are not perfect, but nothing ever is.

I hear people complain about "officer safety" but here we have a good example of why we are always cautious... We don't really know who we are dealing with, EVER!

Falconis
05-16-2011, 5:29 PM
capitis diminutio maxima

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I think they have real balls, trying to unscrew themselves from the system. Props to 'em.

There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty. This is an obvious hit piece so you won't try anything like this at home. Then again, people believed the already dead Bin Laden was killed on May first then thrown over the side of a boat, so they'll believe anything a three letter news agency says.

How do you figure killing 2 cops in cold blood is standing up for liberty. Yeah they should be demonized and hung after their trial. Don't try to evade and minimize their actions because you believe in their whole cause or believe in it in part. Your statement above has no basis in reality.

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 5:50 PM
Fullrearview....on your youtube video.....im thinking hairpull takedown....possibly??? Just don't forget to glove up :-)

I've never heard of this group. Thanks for the heads up.

No worries bro... We had a discussion on it a few months ago, but it didn't go far. I don't get into the mix that often because of where I work, but I am somewhat of a poop magnet, so I try to stay on top of stuff like this since back up is generally 15 minutes at best.

tyrist
05-16-2011, 6:14 PM
capitis diminutio maxima

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I think they have real balls, trying to unscrew themselves from the system. Props to 'em.

There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty. This is an obvious hit piece so you won't try anything like this at home. Then again, people believed the already dead Bin Laden was killed on May first then thrown over the side of a boat, so they'll believe anything a three letter news agency says.

Have you actually looked at the entire basis of the movement? They believe there is some mythical bank account the government opens when they are born and leverages as debt and they can reclaim this money.

While some of their beliefs over lap with people who want liberty when you look at the totality of the movement it appears crazy.

steadyrock
05-16-2011, 6:16 PM
Am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy in the video from the original post? You decry citizens killing cops (indeed, a horrible thing - should not have happened) yet the the white-haired police chief smirks at the end of the video and says he "might enjoy" doing the same thing to citizens. Where's the outrage over that?

lavgrunt
05-16-2011, 6:20 PM
Well.......this thread ain't gonna last long........**SIGH**

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 6:25 PM
Am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy in the video from the original post? You decry citizens killing cops (indeed, a horrible thing - should not have happened) yet the the white-haired police chief smirks at the end of the video and says he "might enjoy" doing the same thing to citizens. Where's the outrage over that?

When you look at it through a black and white lens, sure, I can see it that way... However, its not black and white.

tyrist
05-16-2011, 6:31 PM
Am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy in the video from the original post? You decry citizens killing cops (indeed, a horrible thing - should not have happened) yet the the white-haired police chief smirks at the end of the video and says he "might enjoy" doing the same thing to citizens. Where's the outrage over that?

He put out a challenge to the people who murdered his son. I don't see any hypocrisy. It was not to "citizens" it was to terrorists.

steadyrock
05-16-2011, 6:32 PM
When you look at it through a black and white lens, sure, I can see it that way... However, its not black and white.

Okay then, what is it? A big deal is made in the video/article about the man who says "...if I have to kill one, I won't be able to stop" - but nothing is made of the cop talking about getting a rise out of murdering citizens.

For the record - if somebody came to kill me, I'd kill them back first and I think the cop would be justified if he acted in self defense. But I don't sit around on television interviews fantasizing and telling the nation how much I'd enjoy doing it.

Falconis
05-16-2011, 7:08 PM
Give a grieving father a little space. It's not like a Police Chief saying it about some unknown subordinate that he barely knows.

I didn't see the video, but the man is just verbally lashing out it seems like. I don't know of any father that wouldnt do that in that situation.

And another one trying to deflect attention away from the 2 terrorists that cold bloodly killed a cop .....

Joewy
05-16-2011, 7:14 PM
We have a lot of them here in Wyoming. Most of what they want is the norm here. Of course the DL issue comes up from time to time and many of them are just plain slob's so and if you live in a town the local goverment will sooner or later try to cite them. but generally they just want to be left alone. Violence is of course against everyones laws. If that happens they should be punished.

Here is one in Wyoming

http://trib.com/news/local/casper/collection_4813f5e0-678e-11e0-a121-001cc4c002e0.html

But im not really sure who is crazier. Corrigan or the writer of the piece. She comes across like a east coast liberal but this is in heartland Wyoming.

SparrowHanger
05-16-2011, 7:15 PM
Am I the only person who sees the hypocrisy in the video from the original post? You decry citizens killing cops (indeed, a horrible thing - should not have happened) yet the the white-haired police chief smirks at the end of the video and says he "might enjoy" doing the same thing to citizens. Where's the outrage over that?

I think that has someting to do with the fact that his son was one of the two LEOs shot down in cold blood during the traffic stop shown in that yutube video.

CSACANNONEER
05-16-2011, 7:15 PM
Wow, I didn't know this was still big. I met a few back in the late 80's. I wonder how much the ideaology has changed since then. The one's I met seemed a little more sane.

steadyrock
05-16-2011, 7:18 PM
Give a grieving father a little space. It's not like a Police Chief saying it about some unknown subordinate that he barely knows.

I didn't see the video, but the man is just verbally lashing out it seems like. I don't know of any father that wouldnt do that in that situation.

And another one trying to deflect attention away from the 2 terrorists that cold bloodly killed a cop .....

I'm not trying to deflect attention away from them, I addressed that situation in my first post. It shouldn't have happened - it was bad - and it sounds like the perpetrators got what they deserved. I'm talking about the hypocrisy of posters in this thread focusing on only half of the problem. He sounds bloodthirsty to me - but maybe that's just because I viewed the video.

Question for you - if Randy Weaver went on national TV and "issued a challenge" to BATFE agents, US Marshals, and local police and said he "might enjoy" killing them - would you give him the same space? After all, he's a grieving father (and husband).

Jack L
05-16-2011, 7:20 PM
The radical members of this type of thinking "sovereign citizen" have a delusional vision as to how society works and what it takes to keep a civilized country operating. These types couldn't even exist if it were not for all those that sacrificed to build the USA. They want their cake without the everyday sacrifices, restrictions, 'taxes' and hard work it takes to have a safe secure society with plenty of food and healthy living conditions. If politics were left to these types, the USA would crumble in short order.

1911su16b870
05-16-2011, 8:32 PM
With the events of late and the general anti-LE spirit here...is calguns a sovereign cover forum?

...just say'in :D

Gio
05-16-2011, 9:02 PM
My only beef is with the Sheriff at the very end of the video as far as talking about how far can you push the 1st Amend. and also I hope they would come after me comment he made at the very end.

Seems like a bunch of crazy people that are in this Sovereign Citizen thing. So now I am in the profile section of the SC because I am in my 30's unemployed with financial burdens, at least I am not divorced :D

Tacit Blue
05-16-2011, 9:27 PM
With the events of late and the general anti-LE spirit here...is calguns a sovereign cover forum?

...just say'in :D

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6408470#post6408470


Now their talking about gun confiscation, and saying how well go after them like the movie red dawn.


" Ackrite Ackrite is offline
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They can also find out like they did in Red Dawn. Go to every gun shop and take all their 4473 forms "

fullrearview
05-16-2011, 9:39 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6408470#post6408470


Now their talking about gun confiscation, and saying how well go after them like the movie red dawn.


" Ackrite Ackrite is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 25
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They can also find out like they did in Red Dawn. Go to every gun shop and take all their 4473 forms "

LOLZ!!! Just got back from the gym, popped Red Dawn in and clicked on this thread!

masameet
05-16-2011, 9:47 PM
With the events of late and the general anti-LE spirit here...is calguns a sovereign cover forum?

...just say'in :D

Naw. Calguns is really a Massive Complainers Forum, with a gun theme as cover.

:D

TRICKSTER
05-16-2011, 9:55 PM
Now that I'm retired, I'm tempted to release a copy of the super secret DOJ Firearms Confiscation Plan. If I knew that I could do it without risking my multi-million dollar PERS retirement, I'd go for it. :D

Tacit Blue
05-16-2011, 9:59 PM
Now that I'm retired, I'm tempted to release a copy of the super secret DOJ Firearms Confiscation Plan. If I knew that I could do it without risking my multi-million dollar PERS retirement, I'd go for it. :D

Your doing it for all the wrong reasons, dont be another Julian Assange:rolleyes:

Your were supposed to uphold that Oath to secrecy, don't think you still have that confidential drivers license anymore..:D

Falconis
05-16-2011, 10:30 PM
I'm not trying to deflect attention away from them, I addressed that situation in my first post. It shouldn't have happened - it was bad - and it sounds like the perpetrators got what they deserved. I'm talking about the hypocrisy of posters in this thread focusing on only half of the problem. He sounds bloodthirsty to me - but maybe that's just because I viewed the video.

Question for you - if Randy Weaver went on national TV and "issued a challenge" to BATFE agents, US Marshals, and local police and said he "might enjoy" killing them - would you give him the same space? After all, he's a grieving father (and husband).

I think there is a huge difference and I still think your deflecting attention. But yeah, I'd give the guy space, I'd keep an eye on him, but I'd give him space.

mlevans66
05-16-2011, 10:44 PM
When you look at it through a black and white lens, sure, I can see it that way... However, its not black and white.

Most things are. You just choose to look at things through a gray shade. The cop killer are wrong and so was that chief. Black and White.

Roddd
05-16-2011, 11:34 PM
We had a warning for LE in our area about a soveriegn citizen who was planning on coming into different officers homes and arresting them. I can't speak for all of them, but the ones I've come across are dangerous.

hunteran
05-16-2011, 11:42 PM
capitis diminutio maxima

Once you see it, you can't unsee it. I think they have real balls, trying to unscrew themselves from the system. Props to 'em.

There's no reason these people should be demonized for standing up for individual liberty. This is an obvious hit piece so you won't try anything like this at home. Then again, people believed the already dead Bin Laden was killed on May first then thrown over the side of a boat, so they'll believe anything a three letter news agency says.

Are you serious? Or are you just trolling?

Joewy
05-17-2011, 4:56 AM
Most of what these people believe in as far as constitutionality of various things like police and taxes and freedom of movement is correct. There is no basis for most of it in the Constitution. Most of it didnt even exist untill the end of the 1800's.
They have valid claims.
But as you get more and more people living closer together you need some sort of rules to keep the ones who will be trouble makers in line.
Thats fine. But the whole concept of that has gone overbooard 180 degrees since the 1970's. Pretty much everything is illegal today. Unless you live a Ken and Barbie lifestyle, are in debt up to your eyeballs and have a nice green grass well cut front lawn, you are a sociopath and are treated with contempt by the authorities.
Not the way it is supposed to be.

Samuelx
05-17-2011, 6:29 AM
To all those supporting this movement - so are you condoning the murder of LEOs? (cause you're certainly not saying anything against it...) :mad:

fullrearview
05-17-2011, 7:58 AM
Most of what these people believe in as far as constitutionality of various things like police and taxes and freedom of movement is correct. There is no basis for most of it in the Constitution. Most of it didnt even exist untill the end of the 1800's.
They have valid claims.
But as you get more and more people living closer together you need some sort of rules to keep the ones who will be trouble makers in line.
Thats fine. But the whole concept of that has gone overbooard 180 degrees since the 1970's. Pretty much everything is illegal today. Unless you live a Ken and Barbie lifestyle, are in debt up to your eyeballs and have a nice green grass well cut front lawn, you are a sociopath and are treated with contempt by the authorities.
Not the way it is supposed to be.

That's fine. But the state and local communities have the right to establish LE, and they only enforce state and local laws.

BTW, if you use a public system to travel from point A to point B, such as a roadway, you should be paying taxes through licensing.

Falconis
05-17-2011, 8:02 AM
As far as I am concerned, anyone condoning, supporting, or even minimizing these people or even giving that appearance are no friends of ours here.

1911su16b870
05-17-2011, 8:19 AM
We had a warning for LE in our area about a soveriegn citizen who was planning on coming into different officers homes and arresting them. I can't speak for all of them, but the ones I've come across are dangerous.

:eek: That would end with one less soverign citizen...just the same as if he went into any calguners home attempting to do the same thing!

Joewy
05-17-2011, 8:20 AM
That's fine. But the state and local communities have the right to establish LE, and they only enforce state and local laws.

BTW, if you use a public system to travel from point A to point B, such as a roadway, you should be paying taxes through licensing.

Im not against LE. Not by a long shot. I think very few people are.

Yes, LE is a local issue. But like these people say it has legitamacy thru Incorporation. Which is also true. However the incorporated comunities break most laws of incorporation by forcing the people to do things that they did not vote for but are mandated by another government. Either the state or Federal.

About the Drivers licensing. I do agree with it but there is no legitamacy for it at all. So Why? The roads are maintained and funded by fuel taxes. Most DL funds go towards paying only for the increase in bureaucracy. Not for roads.

Communities and states have no rights. None at all. They have only authority given to them by the people. At least thats what the constitution says. And the Constitution is the Law. Isnt it??

What Im trying to say is that a lot of what they say is factual. However it is illogical. Could society work without rules. Not likely. There would be no stability. You need stability to prosper.

fullrearview
05-17-2011, 9:02 AM
Im not against LE. Not by a long shot. I think very few people are.

Yes, LE is a local issue. But like these people say it has legitamacy thru Incorporation. Which is also true. However the incorporated comunities break most laws of incorporation by forcing the people to do things that they did not vote for but are mandated by another government. Either the state or Federal.

About the Drivers licensing. I do agree with it but there is no legitamacy for it at all. So Why? The roads are maintained and funded by fuel taxes. Most DL funds go towards paying only for the increase in bureaucracy. Not for roads.

Communities and states have no rights. None at all. They have only authority given to them by the people. At least thats what the constitution says. And the Constitution is the Law. Isnt it??

What Im trying to say is that a lot of what they say is factual. However it is illogical. Could society work without rules. Not likely. There would be no stability. You need stability to prosper.

I didn't say you were Anti LEO and I hope I didn't imply it. Like I said about the second video I posted... He sounds completely normal, and wants us to follow the constitution... I agree with that. But some of these people think they can declare their own body a country...WTF???:confused: Of course that's not all of them. As with most anyone, I am cautious around them, and non LEO should be too.

Joewy
05-17-2011, 9:34 AM
Well for the most part I find your posts fair and meaningful. You seem like an honest Liberty minded LEO. We need more like you. And no I dont think you inplied anything. But others were.
I like to study history and especially Constitutional and political history. SAo I follow things like this.
But just because someone believes in Freedom and Liberty dosent make them a criminal. I laughed when I saw that Posse comitatus bumper sticker and the reference that the LEO made of it. One of my ex Senators had that on his truck. :D Ive also seen him on numerous times with a Rifle or 3.
The fake drivers liscence and plates are a joke too. how silly can people get. But think about it. In many places the police wont bother illegals who have neither. They wont even take their cars anymore. So where is the legitmacy of doing it to an American Citizen... If the Law is the Law then where is the Law?? It is for everyone. Isnt it. Unless there is politics involved.

Those two guys murdered someone. Its not important weather it was a LEO or someone walking down the street. They should be punished. End of story. But you dont go after everyone else who may either agree with their politics or happen to have a funny bumper sticker. There is no Law in that. Just Emotion and thoughts of revenge.

SparrowHanger
05-17-2011, 7:29 PM
Sure enough someone on the 2A forum claims that there is no Sovereign Citizen movement and it is nothing more than a "false flag operation" slandering the likes of law abiding folk.

Sounds like a false flag op run by legislators, judges, cops, and prosecutors who want to run roughshod over the rights of non-violent, non-criminal, civil rights proponents by slandering the frack out of us. Apparently "right-wing militia nutjobs" became too passe. I have no doubt that criminals attack the aforementioned classes for personal (including but not limited to mentally ill) reasons, but as an organized political terrorism movement? Give me a break. All of us here on CGN are next if they get away with this BS. :TFH:

epilepticninja
05-17-2011, 8:06 PM
Stopped one for a infraction in the mid 90s. Started with the sovereign citizen, you and the courts don't have any authority over me stuff and refused to sign the cite. After explaining that he could either go to jail now, or walk away after signing a piece of paper that he claimed had no authority over him anyway, he signed the cite.

Same deal, except it was a female who blew thru a stop sign on her...bicycle (yeah, I know, but it was a slow day, what can I say.) So I end up going to court on it. She had even called the DA's office saying that I had no legal right to stop her as she recognized no laws in this country. So they had an ADA go with me to represent the county. I gave my spiel to the judge, and ol' girl basically gave him the same "you can't do this to me" mess. Judge told her to pay, or go forthwith for contempt. Needless to say, she got a free ride to the jail. It was amazing how one small bicycle cite caused so much drama. It even made it in the local papers. Weird group of people.

TRICKSTER
05-17-2011, 9:13 PM
Sure enough someone on the 2A forum claims that there is no Sovereign Citizen movement and it is nothing more than a "false flag operation" slandering the likes of law abiding folk.

The more I read the 2A and OT forum, the more I think I should be investing more money in ALCOA Inc. stock. :D

Uriah02
05-17-2011, 9:46 PM
At the very least if they want to be soveriegn then they need to stay off of taxpayer funded roads and not use any of our services... I've never heard of this before... sounds like a neo-nazi version of liberatarianism.

fullrearview
05-17-2011, 9:57 PM
Well for the most part I find your posts fair and meaningful. You seem like an honest Liberty minded LEO. We need more like you. And no I dont think you inplied anything. But others were.

Well, thank you... I always try to put myself in the other persons shoes and like I said before, prove innocence as much as guilt.

I like to study history and especially Constitutional and political history. SAo I follow things like this.
But just because someone believes in Freedom and Liberty dosent make them a criminal. I laughed when I saw that Posse comitatus bumper sticker and the reference that the LEO made of it. One of my ex Senators had that on his truck. :D Ive also seen him on numerous times with a Rifle or 3.

I agree... But I look at it like any contact. I'm on high alert, until I know how things are going to pan out. Just like if I see a dude with gang tats, I know to give him a few extra steps. I will still be polite and courteous until he decides to take it to the next level.

The fake drivers liscence and plates are a joke too. how silly can people get. But think about it. In many places the police wont bother illegals who have neither. They wont even take their cars anymore. So where is the legitmacy of doing it to an American Citizen... If the Law is the Law then where is the Law?? It is for everyone. Isnt it. Unless there is politics involved.

That stuff pisses me off. I know a guy who got sent back to the jails for "targeting" illegals and towing their cars. The farmers complained and he was yanked from patrol. Only problem is, 99% of the population in the area were farm workers. Like you said, the law is the law and should applied equally.

Those two guys murdered someone. Its not important weather it was a LEO or someone walking down the street. They should be punished. End of story. But you dont go after everyone else who may either agree with their politics or happen to have a funny bumper sticker. There is no Law in that. Just Emotion and thoughts of revenge.

I can agree with that... All I am saying is, I will take extra caution when dealing with the individuals... I wont treat them any different, just be more cautious... They obviously pay close attention to LE tactics and know our weaknesses.




In bold.

lavgrunt
05-17-2011, 9:58 PM
I'm sure ATF, DOJ, FBI, CTU etc. are having a field day reading this thread............

What a complete travesty and poor reflection on firearms owners............Nice way to portray 'us' as mainstream..........Good job...........

BTW, sovereign citizens are a bunch of treasonous cowards..........Let them move to Somalia !!!

Falconis
05-18-2011, 12:32 AM
I'm sure ATF, DOJ, FBI, CTU etc. are having a field day reading this thread............

What a complete travesty and poor reflection on firearms owners............Nice way to portray 'us' as mainstream..........Good job...........

BTW, sovereign citizens are a bunch of treasonous cowards..........Let them move to Somalia !!!

I'll chip in for the cargo ship.

SparrowHanger
05-18-2011, 9:32 AM
If you want to engage in a complete exercise in futility, try engaging on the 2A forum. The people on it are convinced that the average civilian with a CCW has more firearms training than the average LEO.

Joewy
05-18-2011, 9:57 AM
I'm sure ATF, DOJ, FBI, CTU etc. are having a field day reading this thread............

What a complete travesty and poor reflection on firearms owners............Nice way to portray 'us' as mainstream..........Good job...........

BTW, sovereign citizens are a bunch of treasonous cowards..........Let them move to Somalia !!!

What do they care? They have more important things to do than worry about someones DL or licence plate.. Im sure they have many Real crimes to investigate rather than psycoanalyze someones wierd point of view.
Grouping people into catagories and labling them dangerous is dangerous. If someone commits a real crime then go get them.

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 10:41 AM
What do they care? They have more important things to do than worry about someones DL or licence plate.. Im sure they have many Real crimes to investigate rather than psycoanalyze someones wierd point of view.
Grouping people into catagories and labling them dangerous is dangerous. If someone commits a real crime then go get them.

How do you think they come up with the watch list. It's the government, they have people who's only job is to monitor websites for this type of activity and super computers to assist them. You are all doomed. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=434317

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 10:44 AM
If you want to engage in a complete exercise in futility, try engaging on the 2A forum. The people on it are convinced that the average civilian with a CCW has more firearms training than the average LEO.

That's because they are operating under the erroneous assumption that they are the "average civilian".

mille806
05-18-2011, 11:33 AM
if i ever meet one of these retards they will wish they never met me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SparrowHanger
05-18-2011, 12:02 PM
How do you think they come up with the watch list. It's the government, they have people who's only job is to monitor websites for this type of activity and super computers to assist them. You are all doomed. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=434317

Shhh! Just when they were forgetting the black copters now obsoleted by improved satellite surveillance. Oops! After posting that I clicked on your link as saw that they are onto the real time satellite imagery.

TRICKSTER
05-18-2011, 12:19 PM
Shhh! Just when they were forgetting the black copters now obsoleted by improved satellite surveillance. Oops! After posting that I clicked on your link as saw that they are onto the real time satellite imagery.
Yes, but they still haven't caught onto the miniature insect spy drones. :eek:

SparrowHanger
05-18-2011, 1:35 PM
Yes, but they still haven't caught onto the miniature insect spy drones. :eek:

Not the ones implanted in their ears while they sleep:sleeping:

SVT-40
05-18-2011, 1:41 PM
Now that I'm retired, I'm tempted to release a copy of the super secret DOJ Firearms Confiscation Plan. If I knew that I could do it without risking my multi-million dollar PERS retirement, I'd go for it. :D

Yes, but they still haven't caught onto the miniature insect spy drones. :eek:

Great, first you give up the DOJFCP, then the secret MISDP....

What's next. Please don't tell them about the ability for DOJ to see what's in the room with every computer "monitor".............Why do you think they call it a "monitor". :eek:

Damn....now see what you did, I gave up the CMP.

:smilielol5:

lavgrunt
05-18-2011, 6:06 PM
I only have one thing to say..........

........CARNIVORE !!!......(Insert evil laugh here)

Joewy
05-19-2011, 5:14 AM
If you want to engage in a complete exercise in futility, try engaging on the 2A forum. The people on it are convinced that the average civilian with a CCW has more firearms training than the average LEO.

A friend of mine had a good sized hunting ranch and a lot of different types show up for the hunts. I used to help guide and instruct. I can say that LEO's are on the average not very good hunters. Lots of bravado and taticool especially when there is a group of them but not very good shots. As far as safety goes they are more unsafe than the average person and not very apologetic when they sweep you.
There are however some very good hunters among them. Just not on the average.
I would say that most LEO's dont shoot unless they have to for qualification.

Most other hunters have more than a passing fammiliarity with firearms. Know more about them and have shot many different firearms too. They will listen to instruction and follow thru with it. They are more likely to bring home a animal than an LEO.

When an animal is slaughtered ive had more LEO's faint or throwup than other people. :D

The best hunters are the meek quiet little guys. Most of them seem to perfer 7mm single shot rifles and dont bring handguns at all.

The worse are LEO's from either New York or Boston... Scary

Jack L
05-19-2011, 5:51 AM
A friend of mine had a good sized hunting ranch and a lot of different types show up for the hunts. I used to help guide and instruct. I can say that LEO's are on the average not very good hunters. Lots of bravado and taticool especially when there is a group of them but not very good shots. As far as safety goes they are more unsafe than the average person and not very apologetic when they sweep you.
There are however some very good hunters among them. Just not on the average.
I would say that most LEO's dont shoot unless they have to for qualification.

Most other hunters have more than a passing fammiliarity with firearms. Know more about them and have shot many different firearms too. They will listen to instruction and follow thru with it. They are more likely to bring home a animal than an LEO.

When an animal is slaughtered ive had more LEO's faint or throwup than other people. :D

The best hunters are the meek quiet little guys. Most of them seem to perfer 7mm single shot rifles and dont bring handguns at all.

The worse are LEO's from either New York or Boston... Scary

Hard to picture a LEO barfing at the site of an animal kill considering what LEOs see 24/7 while at work.

Joewy
05-19-2011, 6:12 AM
Hard to picture a LEO barfing at the site of an animal kill considering what LEOs see 24/7 while at work.

I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.

tyrist
05-19-2011, 9:46 AM
I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.

This is 100% false. Most LEOs WILL see a deceased human being and usually quite a few a year. When old people die in their homes from natural causes a death investigation still has to be conducted. Sometimes one is even conducted in a hospital because the death was a surprise to the doctor. Never mind all the traffic fatalities or heavy equipment accidents that occur in even the most rural of locations.

There is no way a LEO can go his entire career without seeing a dead body unless they never ever worked any type of patrol function. Perhaps you were guiding a bunch of desk jockeys from the DOJ.

Seeing an animal being gutted is nothing compared to a human body that has had a few weeks to mature inside a closed building during the month of july.

TRICKSTER
05-19-2011, 10:11 AM
I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.

Really, part of my early training was going to the Coroners Office and observing an autopsy. Unfortunately, I have seen plenty of dead bodies in my career, some in multiple pieces. Since I spent most of my career in patrol, I would consider this the average experience for officers working in a metropolitan area.


Seeing an animal being gutted is nothing compared to a human body that has had a few weeks to mature inside a closed building during the month of july.
Or the trunk of an abandoned car.

Falconis
05-19-2011, 10:20 AM
A friend of mine had a good sized hunting ranch and a lot of different types show up for the hunts. I used to help guide and instruct. I can say that LEO's are on the average not very good hunters. Lots of bravado and taticool especially when there is a group of them but not very good shots. As far as safety goes they are more unsafe than the average person and not very apologetic when they sweep you.
There are however some very good hunters among them. Just not on the average.
I would say that most LEO's dont shoot unless they have to for qualification.

Most other hunters have more than a passing fammiliarity with firearms. Know more about them and have shot many different firearms too. They will listen to instruction and follow thru with it. They are more likely to bring home a animal than an LEO.

When an animal is slaughtered ive had more LEO's faint or throwup than other people. :D

The best hunters are the meek quiet little guys. Most of them seem to perfer 7mm single shot rifles and dont bring handguns at all.

The worse are LEO's from either New York or Boston... Scary

and do we want to talk about what civilians at the ranges do. If we're gonna go on a back and forth that is.

I don't know what kind of cops you are giving tours to but the cops I know that only shoot to qualify aren't avid hunters. I can understand if they just got their hunting license and were trying it out the first time.

5shot
05-19-2011, 10:29 AM
I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.

Total nonsense. Most patrol cops will see dead bodies on a weekly basis, or at least a couple a month. It use to amaze me how many people die a week in a moderate size city.
Between old age deaths, traffic accidents, suicides, overdoses, murders, drive by shootings, industrial accidents, fires, and household accidents, I probably seen 1 dead body a week in the time I spent in patrol. Most at one time was a mid air collision with 24 bodies.
And cops are no more worse hunters then any other group. Cops like to socialize with each other. Many times groups will go on fishing trips, hunting trips, golf trips, etc, just to socialize or try something with friends they haven't done before. Some will be really good at the activity, some will be just learning. Some will be very poor at the activity.

SVT-40
05-19-2011, 2:54 PM
I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.

I would bet the "average" LEO sees at least 2-4 DB's a month at least and I'm estimating on the low side. Heck every time someone dies, even from natural causes who do you thing the family calls? It's the COP's. Now if you add in the suicides, accidental, homicides ect. It really adds up.

I remember during one week in my career, my partner and I must have handled at least 8 DB's of one kind or another alone. The other fellows on our shift started calling my partner Ofc. Death and me Ofc. Reaper:eek:.


This post by Joewy is a prime example of just how ignorant the "average Joe" (no pun intended) is of just what LEO's really do. No criticism of Joewy in any way. Because how could one really know without really being there. All the TV shows don't help, because they show very little of what happens besides the small 5-10 minute snippets of some of the calls and situations.

As far as bad DB's. Suicides by laying on the train tracks, Yuck........

Jack L
05-19-2011, 4:10 PM
I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.


You must be kidding, right? I had LEOs on scene with me checking bodies and the scene, too many times to even consider counting. You know, shotgun in the mouth, filleted by knives, shot everywhere you can think of, 100 mph into a cement barrier, hanging for a week by the neck before found, and on and on. In fact, is there a LEO on this forum who has never seen a totally traumatized body? Just saying if I was on scene with LEOs weekly, how could it not be common?

Also the sight and smell of human death is different than animal death. It has more of an effect on a human because our brains subconsciously recognize it's one of our own. There is nothing like the smell and sight of decayed human flesh or burnt human flesh.

P.S.

Forgot to add that I worked mostly in an unincorporated area. The deputy sheriffs were also deputy coroners. So they would come to the scene of deaths. The Highway Patrol would come to deaths on their roads and large events with the Highway Patrol MAIT team. I also worked the beach sand dunes which was a CA state park. The rangers were there for most accident and all deaths. And then the city LEOs would come to almost anything worth being at and all deaths. So, there is across section of LE looking at the reaper's handy work as the world turns. I also transported inmates from Pelican Bay Prison to the local ER. Those correctional guards saw their share of death and all things leading up to death.

Heck, now that I think about it years later, I couldn't get away from death and either could the LEOs.

cowboykenny
05-19-2011, 11:27 PM
we ran in to one in our city he was squatting in a house, that was a mess for the owner since it was a foreclosure. The guy wasn't violent but went through all the motions. He was a real pain in the ***, some of our guys T- stopped him one night and he was a real pain ended up bringing him in for no drivers lic and went that route. He sued us for all his rights violations, and how we couldn't oppose our laws on him. What a bunch of lunatics. They like to live here and use the laws only when it is for their benefit. Just a bunch of con artists.

TRICKSTER
05-20-2011, 9:20 AM
we ran in to one in our city he was squatting in a house, that was a mess for the owner since it was a foreclosure. The guy wasn't violent but went through all the motions. He was a real pain in the ***, some of our guys T- stopped him one night and he was a real pain ended up bringing him in for no drivers lic and went that route. He sued us for all his rights violations, and how we couldn't oppose our laws on him. What a bunch of lunatics. They like to live here and use the laws only when it is for their benefit. Just a bunch of con artists.

Funny how they like to claim that our laws and courts have no jurisdiction over them, but they sure like to use them when it suits their purpose. Not just lunatics, but hypocrites too.

Samuelx
05-20-2011, 8:01 PM
A friend of mine had a good sized hunting ranch and a lot of different types show up for the hunts. I used to help guide and instruct. I can say that LEO's are on the average not very good hunters. Lots of bravado and taticool especially when there is a group of them but not very good shots. As far as safety goes they are more unsafe than the average person and not very apologetic when they sweep you.
There are however some very good hunters among them. Just not on the average.
I would say that most LEO's dont shoot unless they have to for qualification.

Most other hunters have more than a passing fammiliarity with firearms. Know more about them and have shot many different firearms too. They will listen to instruction and follow thru with it. They are more likely to bring home a animal than an LEO.

When an animal is slaughtered ive had more LEO's faint or throwup than other people. :D

The best hunters are the meek quiet little guys. Most of them seem to perfer 7mm single shot rifles and dont bring handguns at all.

The worse are LEO's from either New York or Boston... Scary

Wow, maybe you just set a new record for number of negative stereotypes, generalizations, and erroneous ASSumptions based on too small a set of data all fit in one post... :rolleyes:

Samuelx
05-20-2011, 8:02 PM
I would say that most LEO's never get to see a dead body or at the most maybe once or twice in their carreers. Of course there are certain areas where this is not the case.
But then they arent required to drain,skin gut and quarter anything either. And there is a big difference between a wraped in plastic steak and a still warm animal.

Here we go again. How many LEOs have you interviewed in depth that allows you to state "MOST"? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You obviously don't know jack about the "average" LEO and/or what we do - you should STOP while you're behind...

Falconis
05-20-2011, 8:24 PM
You mean it's not possible that this guy is spreading a bunch of FUD to further his own agenda?

Beagle
05-20-2011, 8:41 PM
You guys notice how these losers are also broke right?

We need to have a deportation policy of deporting those that don't want to be citizens of the U.S. Free ticket to their home country....in the long run it will save us more money from having to pay their welfare etc.....

If they feel the U.S. is crap then they are free to leave any freakin time, sad thing is most of them never been outside the country.

mlevans66
05-20-2011, 11:00 PM
So wrong but so funny!

Falconis
05-20-2011, 11:30 PM
Ehhh I don't think being broke has anything to do with it per say. I think these people were destined to get there no matter what.

I just remember being piss poor and broke growing up and through college, I never said F the governement (well ok, the IRS). I always managed to get a job somewhere and do something. These a holes are just a holes looking for any excuse to be miserable.

Samuelx
05-21-2011, 9:14 AM
F the IRS! Reverend! lol

There are a LOT of things I'm not happy about politics/government/law wise here in the US. BUT (and that's a big BUT), there's no other place I'd rather live either and, if I'm gonna live here, I gotta get used to following the house rules...

1911su16b870
05-21-2011, 9:14 AM
The sovereigns believe they are above the law. They are their own law.

Beagle
05-21-2011, 11:23 AM
Ehhh I don't think being broke has anything to do with it per say. I think these people were destined to get there no matter what.

I just remember being piss poor and broke growing up and through college, I never said F the governement (well ok, the IRS). I always managed to get a job somewhere and do something. These a holes are just a holes looking for any excuse to be miserable.

I just meant the one guy that went crazy and killed two LEO was in foreclosure proceedings and was also in the process of teaching his scam of trying to delay the process.

Nothing wrong with being broke but then he started teaching his scam to others and charging them as well and breaking various laws along the way.

SparrowHanger
05-21-2011, 12:07 PM
I just meant the one guy that went crazy and killed two LEO was in foreclosure proceedings and was also in the process of teaching his scam of trying to delay the process.

Nothing wrong with being broke but then he started teaching his scam to others and charging them as well and breaking various laws along the way.

It wasn't just the guy, but his son that murdered the officers. At the boy's age I do not believe being broke places that much pressure on a kid's mental well being. Certainly not enough to claim insanity or diminished capacity.

cowboykenny
05-22-2011, 7:57 PM
Bring back debtors prison...lol

tonelar
05-22-2011, 8:22 PM
Bring back debtors prison...lol

^- this exactly

I worked in hollyweird in the mid to late 80's and a couple producers and directors I met were sovereigns. However, they had trust accounts set up to cover any mayhem they might cause with their cars. They even retained lawyers who oversaw their situations. They were a trip to talk with...

The one guy I asked had a pamphlet prepared for in case he got pulled over. He claimed he'd never been, so I had no idea how well that went over with local LEOs.

I have to admit; this last idea was attractive. They set up non profits so they had charities that benefitted from their income (instead of just paying taxes, they had a means for choosing how to benefit the community around them).

Anywaze, that's my impression of the handful of sovereigns I met.

Breadfan
05-22-2011, 8:25 PM
Tagged for later