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neomentat
12-03-2006, 11:21 AM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

Joe
12-03-2006, 11:25 AM
.45 acp will give you NO protection from a bear.

mike100
12-03-2006, 11:34 AM
I talked with a fellow on shotgunworld that said he got in the way of a pissed off black bear and emptied his whole 45 hk USP mag (12+1) into it and it finally slumped down dead just a couple of steps from him. probably got a good head shot or something when it got close enough.

No what I was thinking is that since USP's are rated for more than plus-p and can fire 45 super at 1100-1200 fps that that might be something worthwhile- still not 44 magnum enrgy though. I have a 6" elite usp and would love to chrono a couple of supers- first I want to actually shoot one to make sure it doesn't hurt me.

James R.
12-03-2006, 11:54 AM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

Dood, you need this...then you'll be golden ;-)

http://www.apatheology.com/public_shares/images/163463_case_lg.jpg

Regards,

James R.

TheMan
12-03-2006, 12:00 PM
If you want a big devastating round, the 500 S&W revolver would fit the bill.

From what I have heard, the problem is that even if you shoot it in the heart, it can still take quite a few more steps before it dies.

m1371
12-03-2006, 12:04 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

I talked with a fellow on shotgunworld that said he got in the way of a pissed off black bear and emptied his whole 45 hk USP mag (12+1) into it and it finally slumped down dead just a couple of steps from him. probably got a good head shot or something when it got close enough.

No what I was thinking is that since USP's are rated for more than plus-p and can fire 45 super at 1100-1200 fps that that might be something worthwhile- still not 44 magnum enrgy though. I have a 6" elite usp and would love to chrono a couple of supers- first I want to actually shoot one to make sure it doesn't hurt me.

How do I say this as politely as possible.....

Don't half-@$$ something when it is YOUR life you're talking about.

If you have any reason to think you might need a sidearm for bear protection while hunting, then you probably DO need to seriously address the issue.

When it comes to dangerous animals, "good enough" usually isn't. The .45ACP (and about 90% of the other handgun calibers, too) shouldn't even be considered for protection against dangerous animals.

hallce
12-03-2006, 12:09 PM
I agree with Mike100. +p would probably work against brown or black bears. Not against grizzlys. You want aleast a 44mag for them. Just make sure you pistol can handle +p. That said. I would still carry a short barrel 44mag revolver instaed a 45acp in any load.

FatKatMatt
12-03-2006, 12:15 PM
you might want to try getting a lever gun in .500 S & W or .44 Mag. I wouldn't trust my life to anything less.

cho034442
12-03-2006, 12:33 PM
My old roommate used to work for Forest Service in Alaska during the summer and I remember he told me he was issued a large caliber rifle (I don’t recall the exact size) for bear protection. He also told me if you encounter a bear, the best thing is to walk backward away from the bear. If the bear still coming your way, aim for its heart, instead of the head, because its skull is pretty tough and the bullet could skid off it.

SemiAutoSam
12-03-2006, 12:41 PM
Yes 45ACP will do great on a bear IF you want to piss him off.

In my younger days I used a 44 Magnum and 458 Win Mag. As I recall the 44Mag round took 4-5 rounds to drop him.

And I needed a change of clothes. I would have been a lot more comfortable with something a lot larger and or more powerful.

mblat
12-03-2006, 12:49 PM
.45 for bear protection = Gambling in Vegas as retirement planning.

Since you WERE considering a RIFLE and cost was the only show stopper, then why not 12Ga? It is cheap and slag(s) (also cheap) would sure stop any bear on this planet.

mike100
12-03-2006, 12:52 PM
the 45 super query is really just curiosity of where a 230 gr bullet is going to start to be effective ballistically. If I knew I was going to be needing bear protection I'd get off my duff and get around to buying that 44 magnum revolver my collection needs.

If I needed a sidearm right now (10 day wait and all) I'd be more inclined to take a 357 magnum since I own one and it is regarded as a deep penetrator. If one happens to hunt with shotgun slugs, I'd say you have what you would need there.

saki302
12-03-2006, 1:07 PM
If you want something easy to carrry, go with the scandium .44 mag S&W revolver- I'm sure it would handle a cylinder full of +P rounds. I used to have a box of +P+ .FMJ 44mag rounds which fed great in the old Desert Eagle which would probably do a number on a bear- penetration was surprisingly good.

The short .500 is good insurance though. A friend of mine bought two when he went on a bear hunt to go with his .338.

-Dave

Yute
12-03-2006, 2:43 PM
I will play devils advocate here.

If you are not actively going out seek a bear or the chances of a bear encounter are low, then it might be ok to carry .45 acp. It is better to have a small light weapon that you can hike with and will carry it no matter what, even if it is a .45 acp than a large unwieldy weapon, like a rifle or a large handgun and only carry it occasionally due to its weight and bulk.

When people start saying "it takes x number of shots to kill this or that animal with y caliber" I just get the feeling that people loose perspective on what is doing the killing - its not the number of rounds in the body.
As with all shooting, shot placement is key.

Should you hunt bears with a .45 acp? Nope, not in the least. That would be wreckless and irresponsible to say the least. But having a .45 is better than no weapon at all....

CalNRA
12-03-2006, 3:08 PM
I wonder how the FN 5.7 would do against a bear's thick outer layer.

other than that I imagine a 460 Rowland conversion from Clrak in a 1911 would be a little more assuring. according to Sweeney's book it does 230 grain at 1347 ft/s. Isn't that near 44mag territory?

naimad
12-03-2006, 3:24 PM
I Wouldnt Go Anything Smaller Than 44 Mag .460 Or 500 Would Be Best

dw1784
12-03-2006, 3:29 PM
I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

no sir, .45ACP is no where near 44magnum:
1)45ACP(230gr)~400+ft.lbs. 44magnum(240gr)~740ft.lbs
2)44magnum is much more flexible with bullet type/weight and can be loaded to much higher preasure.

chk the archives for another discussion on pistol round vs. bear a few month back.

1911jerry
12-03-2006, 4:16 PM
The only bear you will be protected against with a 45 ACP will be Les Baer....

Jerry

1SGMAT
12-03-2006, 4:35 PM
Caliber has been beat to death here but if at all possible stay away from autos and get a good DA revolver.

NeoWeird
12-03-2006, 4:39 PM
Yup, just chimming in. A .45acp against a bear is like a .22lr against a human. Yeah it might do the trick, but don't plan on it as it will usually just piss the hell out of it, and once their addrenaline starts you are pretty much FUBAR. I have never thought of that .460 conversion being used for large game protection....it might be something worth looking into (though for bear protection a modified semi-auto is probably not that great of an idea).

rayra
12-03-2006, 4:40 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.Have to be a tiny bear. And there is quite a bit of difference between a .44mag and .45ACP.
You should consider buying a nice Reloading manual just for the ballistic / velocity information it contains, to avoid such misunderstandings in teh future, or the reliance on unqualified hearsay.
And if a .45 is all you've got, take it. But if you really expect to encounter bear, then you do need something much harder-hitting.
Lastly, there isa very wide range of issues under the label 'bear'. You didnt' say what part of teh countr or what types of bear you would be defending against.

Atmosphere
12-03-2006, 4:53 PM
I agree with Mike100. +p would probably work against brown or black bears. Not against grizzlys. You want aleast a 44mag for them. Just make sure you pistol can handle +p. That said. I would still carry a short barrel 44mag revolver instaed a 45acp in any load.

How would this round work against brown bear but not against grizzly? Grizzlies are brown bears, one of three subspecies (including the kodaik and mexican brown bear) in North America and the one someone in California would encounter if they werent already extint. So that basically rules out brown bear leaving black bear.

wikipedia is friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear

If you encounter a black bear in the wild, give it plenty of room and try to avoid any contact by slowly backing away and leaving the area. If a black bear charges at you, it is most likely a "bluff charge" where the bear "stops short". Bluff charges are designed to frighten you off or to assert dominance; stand your ground and do your best to appear imposing. Huddle together if in a group, raise your hands or backpack in the air to appear larger, and make plenty of noise. Unless you have come between a sow and her cubs (or you are simply unlucky), you will probably succeed in scaring it away. Avoid eye contact with the bear, but after it has engaged you, seek eye contact to discourage the animal. A bear that rears up on its hind legs is not signalling aggression; a black bear's range of view is three feet off the ground, whereas a human's is between five and six. It is trying to get a look at what you are and see whether you are a threat. If you hear the bear making a popping sound with its jaw, it is warning you that it is uncomfortable. That is a sign to slowly back away (if possible) and leave the area. Headlong flight must be avoided at all cost because the bear will pursue as prey and bears can achieve sustained speeds of up to 30 miles per hour.

If the bear charges and doesn't "stop short" but makes actual physical contact with you, you must fight back. Use whatever you have close at hand to try to injure it so that it no longer finds you worth the fight. In particular, aim for the nose, as it is a sensitive part of the bear, or the face in general. The bear's thick skull makes blows to the top and side of the head nearly useless. It is not uncommon for black bears to disengage after being injured; pepper spray in the eyes has been known to work, but one needs to be fairly close to the bear to hit the eyes with the spray. If fighting the bear does not seem like a wise choice, consider other options. If you play dead, grizzlies may leave you alone, but black bears will begin to eat you or drag you away. You cannot outrun a black bear. Climbing a tree is futile, since black bears excel at climbing trees. Retreat is usually the best option, but your retreat must be slow and methodical, backing away from the bear.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Black_Bear

So basically if it comes to the point where you have to draw a sidearm you've already made a series of mistakes and have royally f'd up. Seems as though to many people are to eager to start dropping animals in "self defense" a la South Park when encounters such as these are easily avoidable and rare at best. Should let nature take its course and try not to get in the way.

LAK Supply
12-03-2006, 5:15 PM
Yute made a good point here. . . Shot placement is the key in any situation!!

I assume you are talking about CA since you are here on Calguns, so I will also assume that you are talking about black bear and not browns.

CA black bear is not an animal that requires a rifle-like handgun! Most black bears in this state average around 250 lbs, and they do not have the tissue density of thier grizzly cousins.

I carry my 10mm loaded with 200gr XTP loads when playing in the CA mountains, and I have no fear that I can knock down a black in the unlikely event that one becomes aggressive. Your .45 will do the trick if you are using the right loads and you put the bullet in the right place.

If you are talking about browns (which are the same as grizzlies, and vary only according to their habitat and diet) or polar bears you are looking at a whole different picture. These bears are much larger and there is more tissue between you and the vitals.

If you have to shoot a big brown bear, again, shot placement is the key!! There have been accounts of brown bears being shot by several different parties with 357, 44, and 7mm mag, and still eating people. As well, they have been killed with 9x19 and 38 special. If I recall correctly, the account I read of the 38 spcl was a hiker who was curled up in a ball while the bear was trying to chew on his head. Hiker reaches up with the gun and lets one go (completely blind shot), bullet goes through the ear, and the bear dies almost instantly.

Carry a high-powered rifle or a shotgun packing some hot slugs if you are in grizzly country. Your sidearm is not as important becasue if a charging brown is that close to you your chances of killing it with anything are already slim to none. A big wheel gun will help in the right situation (if you can hit what you are aiming at with all of the adrenaline pumping and about 3 seconds to get into action), but your best bet is to be cautious, make noise when hiking or riding, and know how to spot signs of bear presence. Be armed for sure, but some common sense will likely keep you out of bad situations to begin with. Avoiding a bad situation to begin with will do for you what ten .500 S&W's may not.

metalhead357
12-03-2006, 5:39 PM
I'm with Yute.

Will it work? Yep. Will it work WELL? Nope...not against Grizzley...a BIGGGGG ????On Black bear.

My question is, IF yiou're hunting for Deer, What caliber are you shooting? Makes NO SENSE to me to drop your rifle and go for the pistol when/if you have a large enough DEER gun. Even .243 do quite adequately on Med size Black bear.

Which leads to yet ANOTHER question? Where are you hunting? If its here in cali...bit of a news flash for some here...there aint no Grizzley in Cali:eek: . So if its *only* black bear you're worried about.....Dont be; they will tend to go the other direction when confronted & will run from....yes....even a .45

But hey, if you're just looking for an excuse to get another gun by the wife, I'd say you Definitely need a .44 or at least a .357 at minimum; IIRC the bear handlers in Yellowstone carry .357....or at least they did (it was like 10+ years since I was talking to them and noticed).

NeoWeird
12-03-2006, 5:40 PM
How would this round work against brown bear but not against grizzly? Grizzlies are brown bears, one of three subspecies (including the kodaik and mexican brown bear) in North America and the one someone in California would encounter if they werent already extint. So that basically rules out brown bear leaving black bear.

wikipedia is friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_bear



Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Black_Bear

So basically if it comes to the point where you have to draw a sidearm you've already made a series of mistakes and have royally f'd up. Seems as though to many people are to eager to start dropping animals in "self defense" a la South Park when encounters such as these are easily avoidable and rare at best. Should let nature take its course and try not to get in the way.


Next you will tell us when a criminal breaks into your home you should pretend to stay asleep so they will not have a reason to harm you since you couldn't identify them, and then you should call the police to protect you. :rolleyes:

The above advice MAY work, but notice that it says that if it DOES start to attack you that you should fight back. I'm not a moron and I will not try to fight a bear with it attacking me. If it charges at me it is either bluffing ot it is going to attack, either way it is provoking an attack and I return the favor if I am capable. Only I won't bluff.

Bookworm
12-03-2006, 5:59 PM
44 magnum and 45 ACP are not comparable....44 special and 45 ACP are comparable. You could get a 44 magnum revolver and load it with 44 specials for home defense and 44 magnums for a woods gun. Just be sure to practice with both the special and magnum rounds as there is quite a bit of difference on both ends.

c good
12-03-2006, 6:17 PM
I had the same question a while back while talking to a friend of mine that is a reloader and more familiar with big game and firepower. He said that the .45 ACP is perfect for bear protection. You put the muzzle in your mouth and pull the trigger just before the bear eats you. Or if you're hiking with a buddy, you shoot him in the knee so bear gets him first!:) :) c good

jmlivingston
12-03-2006, 6:20 PM
Which leads to yet ANOTHER question? Where are you hunting? If its here in cali...bit of a news flash for some here...there aint no Grizzley in Cali:eek: . So if its *only* black bear you're worried about.....Dont be; they will tend to go the other direction when confronted & will run from....yes....even a .45


Sort of depends on where you are. As a general statement you are correct but there's some areas especially on the east side where the bears have been notoriously aggressive. Especially around campgrounds; a few years ago one summer's damage to vehicles and property exceeded $5M! Those bears had just gotten too used to people...


But hey, if you're just looking for an excuse to get another gun by the wife, I'd say you Definitely need a .44 or at least a .357 at minimum; IIRC the bear handlers in Yellowstone carry .357....or at least they did (it was like 10+ years since I was talking to them and noticed).


It was a .357 that my dad used to carry as backup when he was hunting in Alaska 40+ years ago. Primary rifle was a sporterized 03a3, secondary was a buddy with a 12ga with bear slugs, and finally the .357 S&W. He's not much of a gun type any more, but he still swears off semi-auto's as being too risky towards jamming and loves the simplicity of the revolver as well as the knock-down power of the rounds they have available to them.

John

vrejshah209
12-03-2006, 6:30 PM
45 ACP will only make the bear very VERY angry at his lunch.

anotherted
12-03-2006, 6:31 PM
I had the same question a while back while talking to a friend of mine that is a reloader and more familiar with big game and firepower. He said that the .45 ACP is perfect for bear protection. You put the muzzle in your mouth and pull the trigger just before the bear eats you. Or if you're hiking with a buddy, you shoot him in the knee so bear gets him first!:) :) c good

LOL. thats funny. :D

Atmosphere
12-03-2006, 7:05 PM
Next you will tell us when a criminal breaks into your home you should pretend to stay asleep so they will not have a reason to harm you since you couldn't identify them, and then you should call the police to protect you. :rolleyes:

The above advice MAY work, but notice that it says that if it DOES start to attack you that you should fight back. I'm not a moron and I will not try to fight a bear with it attacking me. If it charges at me it is either bluffing ot it is going to attack, either way it is provoking an attack and I return the favor if I am capable. Only I won't bluff.

The point I was making was that you can avoid putting yourself into such a position that it comes down to you having to draw a pistol and hope the caliber is sufficient enough and your shots are well placed. And no Im not going to justifiy huddling in your bed when there is an intruder in the house. The intruder make a clear and rational choice to break in, stumbling across a bear is a chance encounter and Im sure neither the bear or yourself really want to tangle.

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 8:20 PM
It seems like penetration would be the limiting factor of .45 ACP vs a bear. Load with FMJ? Or maybe staggered FMJ and HP? Dunno how the game wardens would like that...

I was wondering, too, what he's going to be hunting pigs and deer with. Unless it's a bow and arrow, I'd probably try that before the pistol!

acegunnr
12-03-2006, 8:53 PM
http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/now/bears.htm

Incidents are reports of actual $ in property damage.

:eek:

HkUSP45
12-03-2006, 9:10 PM
Will a skunk scent like this work.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp;jsessionid=1WSJKLRHRRSIACWQNWSCCOQK0BW0KI WE?id=0014800415446a&type=product&cmCat=perf&rid=0180101070502&xpid=k17401&cm_ven=Performics&cm_cat=Affiliate%2Dclick&cm_pla=Nextag&cm_ite=DDI%20Link&afsrc=1&_requestid=155257

Librarian
12-03-2006, 9:31 PM
Will a skunk scent like this work.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp;jsessionid=1WSJKLRHRRSIACWQNWSCCOQK0BW0KI WE?id=0014800415446a&type=product&cmCat=perf&rid=0180101070502&xpid=k17401&cm_ven=Performics&cm_cat=Affiliate%2Dclick&cm_pla=Nextag&cm_ite=DDI%20Link&afsrc=1&_requestid=155257
Sure - see this link (http://www.boyscouttrail.com/content/joke/joke-606.asp).

rayra
12-03-2006, 9:36 PM
The point I was making was that you can avoid putting yourself into such a position that it comes down to you having to draw a pistol and hope the caliber is sufficient enough and your shots are well placed. And no Im not going to justifiy huddling in your bed when there is an intruder in the house. The intruder make a clear and rational choice to break in, stumbling across a bear is a chance encounter and Im sure neither the bear or yourself really want to tangle.Which is utterly beside the point. We're not talking about avoidance strategies or some fuzzy-wuzzy 'we're intruding on their space' meme. We're talking about about that microsecond of 'uh-oh' when you've come head to head with a large omnivore / carnivore in the wilderness and your only option is to reach for the best weapon you've got, to ensure that you win / survive.

ETA: Topic is what is the sufficient caliber to ensure you survive the encounter, not 'how do I avoid bears'.

Aluisious
12-03-2006, 9:48 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.
.44 magnum at least.

You need penetration, more than .45 is going to give.

Aluisious
12-03-2006, 9:52 PM
I will play devils advocate here.

If you are not actively going out seek a bear or the chances of a bear encounter are low, then it might be ok to carry .45 acp. It is better to have a small light weapon that you can hike with and will carry it no matter what, even if it is a .45 acp than a large unwieldy weapon, like a rifle or a large handgun and only carry it occasionally due to its weight and bulk.

When people start saying "it takes x number of shots to kill this or that animal with y caliber" I just get the feeling that people loose perspective on what is doing the killing - its not the number of rounds in the body.
As with all shooting, shot placement is key.

Should you hunt bears with a .45 acp? Nope, not in the least. That would be wreckless and irresponsible to say the least. But having a .45 is better than no weapon at all....
Shot placement means nothing if you use a light bullet at low velocity that does not penetrate, or if it veers off course.

Caliber DOES matter. Let's see you "shot placement" your way through a bear with a .22 LR.

Aluisious
12-03-2006, 9:53 PM
It seems like penetration would be the limiting factor of .45 ACP vs a bear. Load with FMJ? Or maybe staggered FMJ and HP? Dunno how the game wardens would like that...

I was wondering, too, what he's going to be hunting pigs and deer with. Unless it's a bow and arrow, I'd probably try that before the pistol!
.45 JHP vs bear is retarded. The bullets will never reach anything good. FMJ is the only way to go.

M. Sage
12-03-2006, 9:59 PM
That's what I thought, too. I'd rather have a small-ish hole through the beast than a big hole that stops short of the vitals.

Aluisious
12-03-2006, 10:02 PM
BTW .44 mag has superior terminal ballistics vs bears than .45 ACP because .44 magnum can shoot a hard cast 300gr bullet that will penetrate DEEP and punch through bone where .45 ACP in 230gr FMJ will deflect and stop short.

You need to hit that bear with the biggest, heaviest, toughest, fastest bullet you can. 44 mag and above.

metalhead357
12-03-2006, 10:03 PM
FMJ is the only way to go.

And completely ILLegal for hunting in Califonria................

neomentat
12-03-2006, 10:08 PM
I'm with Yute.

Will it work? Yep. Will it work WELL? Nope...not against Grizzley...a BIGGGGG ????On Black bear.

My question is, IF yiou're hunting for Deer, What caliber are you shooting? Makes NO SENSE to me to drop your rifle and go for the pistol when/if you have a large enough DEER gun. Even .243 do quite adequately on Med size Black bear.

Which leads to yet ANOTHER question? Where are you hunting? If its here in cali...bit of a news flash for some here...there aint no Grizzley in Cali:eek: . So if its *only* black bear you're worried about.....Dont be; they will tend to go the other direction when confronted & will run from....yes....even a .45

But hey, if you're just looking for an excuse to get another gun by the wife, I'd say you Definitely need a .44 or at least a .357 at minimum; IIRC the bear handlers in Yellowstone carry .357....or at least they did (it was like 10+ years since I was talking to them and noticed).

I'm using my SKS for deer hunting and yes I hunt here in CA. I've never encountered a black bear before, didn't know brown bears arn't here but have always been afraid of them. I've heard many stories about hikers being eaten after shooting the bear with a full clip of xxx caliber. And I just didn't feel the 7.62x39 is enough to put down a hunk of pissed off bear.

Another excuse to get a nice revolver is always good since the wife constantly wants me to sell my guns.

I would like to thank everyone here who responded to my post and the fountain of information provided. I've learned alot on various calibers, bear facts and especially the ballistic difference between a .44 magnum and a .45 acp. :)

I think I'll be shopping for a revolver now, the S&W 460V looks so nice, drool....

Aluisious
12-03-2006, 10:14 PM
And completely ILLegal for hunting in Califonria................
You're not "hunting" a bear with .45 ACP.

You take your .45 expanding ammo on a bear hunt and let me know how that turns out. I'll have Mathilda the Medium ready to relay your wonderfully legal exploits to me.

Stanze
12-03-2006, 10:42 PM
.500 Magnum.

Look what it did to this evil watermelon!:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoW8nHIVuRk

metalhead357
12-03-2006, 11:00 PM
You're not "hunting" a bear with .45 ACP.

You take your .45 expanding ammo on a bear hunt and let me know how that turns out. I'll have Mathilda the Medium ready to relay your wonderfully legal exploits to me.

LOL! No thanks; I dont wunnnnnna hunt bear with a .45 ACP I got one but then again I got BIGGER guns:p I was talking about being LEGAL ((Which we all know does NOT always equate to safe...or smart:p )) as Cali simply does not allow hunting with FMJ. So go ahead and pack it in YOUR side arm and go deer hunting, bear hunting, pig hunting...whatever; when/if DFG stops ya' hope ya' like treatment the state gives ya' on our dime M'K???? LOL!

neomentat

thanks for responding back. My buddy hunted Deer with an SKS for years; I STILL hunt with a bolt action 7.62x39.... ((putting Flack suit on)) Some equate it to somewhere between a 30-30 "knockdown" and a .243 flight ballistics. Best Americanizing I can do for ya' on that.

As I said and you seemed to pick up on, even though there were multiple posts, from quoting me...there are sooooooooo many variables in Hunting & hunting in Cali. I dont want to say have "no" fear of bears...but have a healthy respect for them. If you stay hunting in cali then follow the usual rules. Dont hunt alone. If you get a deer have at least one hunter standing by armed with a rifle. Dont gut the deer in isolated and deep woods areas that you can be "snuck up" on. Drag 'er out to a clearing...shady is ok, but something that can/will allow for you to see more than 10-20 feet around you. If & when you get a deer- DONT BE afraid to make NOISE; as that IS a big deterrent to Black bear.

I think that SKS is more than adequate for "holding off" a black bear; Heck you've got at least 5 more rounds than most other hunting rifles; And dont let anyone here tell you you cant have more than 5 rounds while Hunting; not true in Cali for Big game; heck you're not even limited to 10 rounds ((Save you said SKS and putting on a bigger mag would make it a AW and thereby illegal)) But hey, one in my hunting group regularely hunts with a M1A and his 20 rounder tucked in...........

And as a note for Bear~ While I have no FIRST hand accounts of .45 on a BIG black bear there aint a lot of reason to suspect they'd be "bad" for them or even more arguablely so for small or medium weight bear. But again......there ARE better choices

Now if you ARE going into GRIZZLY country-- dont scrap everything I said, but take it with you and do the reading & research necessary to stay alive in the bush where the Bigguns' reside & find what wor.ks for you in wallet, in pices of mind, AND optimal safety

As said, You *can* do it with a .45 ACP, but as I already said...excuses for the misses are always necessary;) So go buy a bigger gun and dont sweat the small stuff...you go hunting to enjoy yourself...so dont stress while out there, keep you wits about you and enjoy...........

NeoWeird
12-03-2006, 11:17 PM
The point I was making was that you can avoid putting yourself into such a position that it comes down to you having to draw a pistol and hope the caliber is sufficient enough and your shots are well placed. And no Im not going to justifiy huddling in your bed when there is an intruder in the house. The intruder make a clear and rational choice to break in, stumbling across a bear is a chance encounter and Im sure neither the bear or yourself really want to tangle.

Ok, let's say you did everything right.

You stayed on the path, you went in a small group (let's say you and your wife/husband), you took all the precautions and you did everything 'right'. Somehow, a mother bear walks past your path moments before you pass it and you find yourself between her and her cub(s). She is now furious and will not back down and is looking to fight you. Now what?

Sometimes, especially in the wild, **** just happens. My point was that you can NOT follow a set of rules/guidelines and guarantee you will be fine. You can minmize the chances of something happening, but sooner or later something will happen to someone following those rules. I personally would never want to find myself in that situation without a way to defend my wife (I probably wouldn't be thinking about my safety at that point). No one wants to have to kill something in defense, but if it comes down to a bear and my wife, the choice would be very clear and very easy.



I got to ask, for you guys that want to take this big revolvers out with you, do you ever take those electronic ear muffs that look like hearing aids with you? I know I would be kicking myself for life if I ruptured my ear drums because I didn't spend $200 on some less invasive good quality electronic hearing protection.

metalhead357
12-03-2006, 11:28 PM
Ahhhhh,

Here it is. Its what I had in mind when originally posting. The .45's got the wieight but a tad under for the bigguns'..

For a bear cartridge anything equal to or more powerful than a .41 Magnum or .44 Magnum will be fine. Oldtime black bear hunters say that any load that throws at least a 200-grain or bigger solid bullet at 1000 fps or more will take any bear in the woods. By that standard a good heavy-power .44 Special or .45 Colt handload in the right gun should work fine and has. As for my favorite whitetail .357 Magnum or other similar-caliber load, a well-placed shot with a good bullet will certainly kill a bear, but it's not recommended. Wayne Bosowicz carried a Colt Python .357 Magnum revolver for years as his bear gun. Then he encountered a situation when a charged-up major boar came down from a tree and soaked up an entire cylinder full of 158-grain JHP ammo in the chest without slowing down. Bosowicz immediately went and bought a Ruger Blackhawk .41 Magnum revolver and has carried a .41 Magnum ever since. He says he has never had it fail to stop a bear on site.

http://www.foggymountain.com/handgunning-bear-hunt3.shtml

Them Old timers survived just fine with them .44's and even .41's.... No *need* to go bigger but what they hey.... I would if you can afford to throw top-price lead down range; if not, or not wanting a wrist buster stay with the ol timer's reccomendations.....


Here's another ok read.......
http://www.jesseshunting.com/articles/hunting/category14/21.html

Sutcliffe
12-04-2006, 4:08 AM
Depends on where you are planning to be. Every black bear I've seen in the Sierra or even in the southwest hasn't been all that big or agressive. I'd feel pretty confident in a .45acp for most applications.
There are some areas up north where they eat a lot of salmon and can get pretty damned big. 500-600 lbs or so from what I understand. Not something I'd be willing to trust the acp with.
Grizzly or Brown bear or even Polar or Short Faced bears you might as well go with something much bigger. You're gonna need it.

Yute
12-04-2006, 5:49 AM
Shot placement means nothing if you use a light bullet at low velocity that does not penetrate, or if it veers off course.

Caliber DOES matter. Let's see you "shot placement" your way through a bear with a .22 LR.

You will get no arguement with me on that. That's why I'm not advocating carrying a .22. Then again you can take down any animal on this planet with a .22 to the eye. Be that as it may, I agree Shot placement may be very important, but it is not the only factor to think about.

My main point however is that its better to have a .45 acp with you 100% of the time vs a .44 or a rifle with you 80% of the time if you're not going to have a likely encounter with a bear. Should you by some small chance run across a bear, then with a .45 ACP you still have a chance at taking it down. You can do much worse than the .45. Luck beats caliber any day.

One bear attack stories that stick out in my mind.


Story was two hunters cleaning their moose kill in a bear area. Put down their rifles and hung their handguns on tree braches nearby (revolvers of heavier caliber IIRC) as they got in the way of the cleaning. Well, surprise surprise, Bear pops out looking for the kill, the hunters are momentarily defenseless. Eventually they get to their guns, but were bitten and very lucky to survive.

Again if you're going to be looking for a bear, or have a high probablity of running into one, then a deep penetrating, good expanding, hopefully controllable (no point have a .50 and miss the first shot with the bear 50m away sprinting at you), backup weapon that is easy to carry is indeed the way to go. If you're going hiking and then your discover 10 miles down that your long barrel .44 in your shoulder holster is chaffing your skin and you put it in your backpack - then well, you've kinda defeated the purpose of carrying a high caliber handgun to being with. I know a lot of you are tough, so if you can carry a .50 S&W on your waist during an uphill 7k scramble in rough terrain, then all the power to you, but for people like me who aren't that tough having a .45acp is better than a spear :)

ZapThyCat
12-04-2006, 6:32 AM
If you encounter a bear, you can do a whole lot more to ward it off if you wave your arms and shout... and that's IF you bushwack him. If he's farther off, chances are he'll hightail it out of there anyways. If it's a momma and she has babies about, that's when you need your gun.

Bears aren't invincible, .45 will do just fine if you have decent shot placement and put a full mag into her. If nothing else you can run to give your bullets a little more time to work, although the bear will outrun you eventually.

Unless you have a shotty or rifle, or you are far away, expect a few scrapes.

And remember: Brown bears don't want to eat you. Play dead. Black bears don't have a problem eating you while you play dead.

slocum
12-04-2006, 10:23 AM
I see there's plenty of debate here. I have a simple question so here goes: Why would you take a chance? Everyone agrees that a rifle (other than a .22) would be the best thing to have, but if it's a handgun you want to bring along, why wouldn't you bring something that everyone pretty much agrees will do the job?

Look, if you're going to carry a gun for the express purpose of being able to successfully defend your life in a bear attack then bring the right one. There is division about whether a .45 will do the job. Given that many people choose .45 ACP as a home defense round specifically because they are concerned about overpenetration in a home defense scenario, I think it is safe to say that this logic should extend to the bear problem. A .45 is a powerful weapon - to a limited extent. It should be thought of as such.

There is little doubt that a .44 magnum (or bigger) stands a reasonably good chance of achieving the stated objective. Not everyone can handle a .44 or larger handgun with ease but most can learn to be minimally proficient with one. If the objective is truly to have an out in a desperate situation then correct choices need to be made. Anything less is just fluff.

s

Cpl_Peters
12-04-2006, 11:23 AM
nothing can withstand the mighty 2000grain 4-bore!
http://www.bulletswage.com/images/gatl-5a.jpg
Yes thats a real round.

But on the practical side, a short barrel .44 should do fine, but a 4" .500 would be better.

Aluisious
12-04-2006, 11:47 AM
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/articles/images/88.jpg
This should also suffice for bear.

edwardm
12-04-2006, 12:11 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

Skip the sidearm, unless it's something in .460, .480 or .500.

If it was me, and I needed protection in the form of say a saddle gun, it would be a Marlin 336 chambered in 45-70 government. Good enough for buffalo = good enough for bear.

An old Alaskan guide once told me a funny one when another fisherman asked about a .357 magnum for bear protection:

"Sure, but file down the front sight. It'll hurt less when the bear shoves it up your a**."

Aluisious
12-04-2006, 12:48 PM
Skip the sidearm, unless it's something in .460, .480 or .500.

If it was me, and I needed protection in the form of say a saddle gun, it would be a Marlin 336 chambered in 45-70 government. Good enough for buffalo = good enough for bear.

An old Alaskan guide once told me a funny one when another fisherman asked about a .357 magnum for bear protection:

"Sure, but file down the front sight. It'll hurt less when the bear shoves it up your a**."
I LoL'd

jumbopanda
12-04-2006, 4:07 PM
Don't underestimate the strength and endurance of big, burly animals. I've heard of hunters discovering multiple bullets inside a boar's carcass from previous hunters who failed to kill it. If you're not gonna carry a gun powerful enough to kill the bear, you might want to have some good running shoes on...

pieeater
12-04-2006, 7:14 PM
I killed this bear a couple weeks ago up in mendocino, it took 4 rounds of 300 WBY. I was shocked I've killed a lot of animals with this rifle and pretty much dropped everything in its tracks. Bears can be tough.

http://www.fototime.com/97F4E193D3B903C/standard.jpg

newtothis
12-04-2006, 7:28 PM
Can you say if a single round in the right place or an accumulation of damage did it in? Was it charging?

M. Sage
12-04-2006, 7:33 PM
I'm using my SKS for deer hunting and yes I hunt here in CA. I've never encountered a black bear before, didn't know brown bears arn't here but have always been afraid of them. I've heard many stories about hikers being eaten after shooting the bear with a full clip of xxx caliber. And I just didn't feel the 7.62x39 is enough to put down a hunk of pissed off bear.

Just FYI, .44 mag = about 900 ft/lb, 7.62x39 = around 1400. The bullet is lighter and smaller, but that wouldn't deter me from picking up an SKS over a revolver if both were laying handy and a bear was charging me.

Aluisious
12-04-2006, 7:41 PM
Just FYI, .44 mag = about 900 ft/lb, 7.62x39 = around 1400. The bullet is lighter and smaller, but that wouldn't deter me from picking up an SKS over a revolver if both were laying handy and a bear was charging me.
Energy doesn't mean much by itself. You could point a one megawatt laser at that bear for one second and deliver 750 thousand foot pounds of energy and it wouldn't get you much exept a singed, mad bear.

pieeater
12-04-2006, 7:59 PM
Can you say if a single round in the right place or an accumulation of damage did it in? Was it charging?First shot was at 250 yards low in the front shoulder. Then I gut shot him on the run and missed a couple times. Finaly heart shot him and put him down. When I got to him he started thrashing around and I put one in his head at 20 yards[I was aiming for the heart but he moved]

pieeater
12-04-2006, 8:04 PM
45 might work good on a bear this size.

http://www.fototime.com/A70263C2EEC488B/standard.jpg

RANGER295
12-04-2006, 8:28 PM
Go ahead an laugh at me if you want, but the sidearm that I carry the most in the back country is my 9mm Sig. I sometimes carry my 1911 but most of the time it is my Sig. I have been tramping around the back country all of my life and have a great respect for wild animals. I have seen more bears than I can count and even been stocked for a day by a mountain lion (we saw its tracks along our snowshoe tracks on our way back). To tell the truth I worry far more about two legged animals in the back country than I do four legged animals. The only time I have ever had to pull a weapon in the back country it was on a two legged animal that I am very thankful backed down. Playing heads up is really the key. Staying with someone else, cleaning the deer in the open with another hunter standing guard, and various other advice that others have mentioned is all important. The black/brown bears that we have in this area are not very aggressive. For the most part if you give them room, they will leave you alone. It is a gamble, but I am not willing to carry a massive revolver on the outside chance that I will need it. The same goes for a long gun. If I am not hunting or camping, I won’t have one with me. This is just something I have gotten more comfortable with over time.

FatKatMatt
12-04-2006, 10:47 PM
Would .45-70 work?

NwG
12-04-2006, 11:26 PM
Get yourself a Marlin 1895 guide gun in 45-70.. Will kill anything in North America
Great gun for hogs and deer with a light round with the ability to shoot a 500gr. solid! With the new lever gun ammo that is out 200 yard bullit drop goes from ~ 8-9 feet to a small 24"... Great gun and a blast to shoot!

Other than that pick up a wheel gun in .44Mag or bigger..

Aluisious
12-04-2006, 11:38 PM
Go ahead an laugh at me if you want, but the sidearm that I carry the most in the back country is my 9mm Sig. I sometimes carry my 1911 but most of the time it is my Sig. I have been tramping around the back country all of my life and have a great respect for wild animals. I have seen more bears than I can count and even been stocked for a day by a mountain lion (we saw its tracks along our snowshoe tracks on our way back). To tell the truth I worry far more about two legged animals in the back country than I do four legged animals. The only time I have ever had to pull a weapon in the back country it was on a two legged animal that I am very thankful backed down. Playing heads up is really the key. Staying with someone else, cleaning the deer in the open with another hunter standing guard, and various other advice that others have mentioned is all important. The black/brown bears that we have in this area are not very aggressive. For the most part if you give them room, they will leave you alone. It is a gamble, but I am not willing to carry a massive revolver on the outside chance that I will need it. The same goes for a long gun. If I am not hunting or camping, I won’t have one with me. This is just something I have gotten more comfortable with over time.
Not to open myself up to redicule, but a 9mm non-expanding round will penetrate deeper than a .45 ACP non-expanding round. Might be better for bear?

Kind of like chosing between getting kicked in the nuts and kicked in the teeth, though.

pacificcoast
12-05-2006, 12:12 AM
The only time I have ever had to pull a weapon in the back country it was on a two legged animal that I am very thankful backed down.

:eek:

we wanna hear that story! :D

metalhead357
12-05-2006, 12:57 AM
Go ahead an laugh at me if you want, but the sidearm that I carry the most in the back country is my 9mm Sig. .

I aint laughing. I usually carry a nine; bump to the .357 or 45 ACP when I get into the higher elevations if/when I do think a bear might be by.

But C'mon folks; yeah there are big Big BIG rounds out there but lets not forget many a GRIZZLEY was taken with but the 'ol 30-30; and penty of black bear are too to this very day............

Yute
12-05-2006, 3:02 AM
Or back in the day when we did it with rocks and sticks :P

tundraman
12-07-2006, 6:16 PM
If you really want bear protection and a small carry gun, then check this out
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=49906&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15707&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/163503_case_sm.jpg

RANGER295
12-07-2006, 7:52 PM
I aint laughing. I usually carry a nine; bump to the .357 or 45 ACP when I get into the higher elevations if/when I do think a bear might be by.
Not to open myself up to redicule, but a 9mm non-expanding round will penetrate deeper than a .45 ACP non-expanding round. Might be better for bear?

Kind of like chosing between getting kicked in the nuts and kicked in the teeth, though.
Yeah I have gone back and forth on this issue. The reasons the P226 usually wins is because first of all I am more comfortable with that than the 1911 secondly I like having twice the number of rounds without reloading. When I carry the 9mm, I alternate every other round FMJ and HP with the HP up first. That way I get both the shock and penetration. Check this ammo out http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/product_info.html&setup=1&cart_id=7348937.2688 they claim that the 505 pound boar in the picture was dropped with one shot from a 9mm. If you use the right stuff… it may just get the job done.
:eek: we wanna hear that story!:D
To make the story short, I was one of the people in charge of decommissioning a camp up in the Sierras. The sun was starting to go down and I was driving down the private drive from the main area to the road to lock the gate for the night. There was some punk that was walking in the woods by the drive and I saw him throw a beer can on the ground. I got ticked off and got out of the truck and told him to pick it up and get off of the property. He started to give me lip and then pulled out a KA-BAR knockoff knife and started towards me. I reached into my truck and grabbed my shotty. One look at the good ol’ 12ga and I got a free knife and apology out of the deal. I think he may have messed his pants. Anyway I had him walk in front of my truck to the road and never saw him again. In hind sight I probably shouldn’t have stopped him. If he hadn’t backed down… a beer can isn’t worth shooting someone over.

E Pluribus Unum
12-07-2006, 9:03 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo.

Look at ammoman.com at the 308. 7.62 nato surplus; it's pretty cheap. If you buy the commercial stuff you will go broke.

For trail work I would suggest the following:

M1A:
Socom or bush. 308, lots of punch but at 9 lbs its heavy. If you can handle the weight this is probably the best all around rifle. Detachable magazines put it a hair better than the garand.

CMP Garand:
Many of the advantages of the M1A but much cheaper. Ammo is easier to get than the SKS. Still very heavy however.

SKS:
Much cheaper than the M1A, good 30 caliber punch similar in ballistics to the 308 at closer ranges, not as accurate but plenty accurate to hit a bear up to 200 meters away. The only disadvantage is the ammo is a bit harder to find and it is still a bit heavier than a .223.

SU-16:
By far the lightest. A hair over 4 lbs and will take 30 round AR-15 mags. Price is attractive at around $500.00. The round is a little anemic for bear but 30 rounds should have no problem stopping one. The only two advantages of the SU-16 are the weight and the 30 round magazines, but these are good advantages. I would have a hard time choosing between the M1A and the SU-16. I am still young so I have no problem carrying my 10 lb M1A around.

BgDmSWEDE
01-13-2010, 5:20 PM
Excuse me but....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Surely you jest! Do you have any idea how thick a bears skull is or how deep his vitals are? An ACP off the skull will probably come bouncing back at you and his hide is much like body armor. I just finished reloading 1k rounds of my 44 mag and thinking what a great round it is for anything in the lower 48. If you are going to AK pick up a 460 or 500 or a 12ga with slugs. 45 hahahaha you funny guy.

cineski
01-13-2010, 5:30 PM
The USP is NOT rated for 45 Super. A few people have shot Super through those and HK45s, but they aren't rated for it. Worst thing to have happen is a catastrophic failure when you need the gun because you're exceeding specs on your pistol. I ordered a 10mm Glock 20 for this very purpose. For a semi-auto, there's no woods gun that's better. Sure, you can get a DE 50AE, but that's not a woods gun.

180ls1
01-13-2010, 6:06 PM
Excuse me but....... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Surely you jest! Do you have any idea how thick a bears skull is or how deep his vitals are? An ACP off the skull will probably come bouncing back at you and his hide is much like body armor. I just finished reloading 1k rounds of my 44 mag and thinking what a great round it is for anything in the lower 48. If you are going to AK pick up a 460 or 500 or a 12ga with slugs. 45 hahahaha you funny guy.

Do you have any idea how old this thread is?

creampuff
01-13-2010, 6:23 PM
Do you have any idea how old this thread is?

No kidding...it even has posts from SAS at the very beginning. I thought for a second he was back..

cineski
01-13-2010, 7:31 PM
Whoa....'06! The guy's probably bear food by now!!!

Do you have any idea how old this thread is?

Noobert
01-13-2010, 8:12 PM
http://k53.pbase.com/o6/10/445810/1/73306500.sORS6AcU.threadomancy.jpg

Full Clip
01-13-2010, 8:25 PM
Holy necrothread!

The only bear you will be protected against with a 45 ACP will be Les Baer...

Or:

http://www.caughtoffside.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/yogi-bear-show-02.jpg

Mikeinblack
01-13-2010, 9:11 PM
Okay, so... Let's assume you have non-hunting purposes for being out in the woods (hiking, camping, Fishing, etc.) Don't you have to have a CCW to carry your Bear Protection in a pack? I would expect that the State would rather have the bear eat you than allow you to carry...

vinny_land
01-13-2010, 9:20 PM
^ I believe on BLM land and also National Forest (not sure about parks) it is okay to LOC. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

J-cat
01-13-2010, 9:21 PM
I think the 45 ACP in a revolver may do pretty well with a 255gr heat treated SWC @ 1000 FPS.

sd1023x
01-13-2010, 9:22 PM
A .300-Magnum rifle or a 12-gauge shotgun with rifled slugs are appropriate weapons if you have to shoot a bear. Heavy handguns such as a .44-Magnum may be inadequate in emergency situations, especially in untrained hands.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r10/tongass/forest_facts/safety/bearfacts.htm

Catch a sale at turners or big 5 and get yourself a 870 or mossberg "cruiser" model for $300 give or take.

Noobert
01-13-2010, 9:57 PM
A lever .45-70 would suit the bill

Snapping Twig
01-13-2010, 11:23 PM
Little late to the party, but here's my 2 cents...

45acp isn't the right tool for the job. That said, it MIGHT be marginally acceptable for small California black bear IF the right round is used.

I load a home cast 230g TC from a Lee mould and I believe with the large metplat and monolithic solid construction, if pushed fast enough, it MIGHT work. That and the fact that you have 8 chances to get it right.

Shot placement is crucial, all else is angles dancing on the head of a pin.

In regards to your 7.62x39, I also hunt with one. Great round! Try a 150g NBT @ 2100fps - I promise that you'll like it. :)

Bottom line - if you possibly can, get a 44 mag - that's what I carry cross draw in addition to my rifle and I had a bear encounter (sow with cubs) that ended well with no shots fired, but I figured if things went south, my bolt gun (30-06) was good for the first round and the pistol was going to get all the follow-up.

KillZone45
01-13-2010, 11:27 PM
I am sure its been mentioned a billion times before but Ill say it again, Glock 10mm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shooterdude
01-14-2010, 1:51 PM
If you are going to carry a .45 for bear protection then you need to file off the front sight. It won't hurt as much after you shoot him and he takes it from you and shoves it up your ***.

phamkl
01-14-2010, 2:17 PM
This might be a good excuse to get a Desert Eagle.

GunNutz
01-14-2010, 2:24 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

.44 will work but you want special rounds and a gun that can handle them. Regular .44 are 240 grain but you can get them as large as at least 340, but not every gun can handle the amount of pressure produced by the heavier rounds.

A .454 would also be a good choice.

jammer2k
01-14-2010, 2:36 PM
Not sure I understand the controversy here, when I keep and arm bears they dont seem to have any issues with .45 ACP although many of them seem to like shooting the 44 mag :eek::rolleyes:

ponderosa
01-14-2010, 2:43 PM
damn, i gotta pay better attention to the thread dates. read up to page 5 then see it was back from '06. hahaha. crazy. good use of time :)

nitrofc
01-14-2010, 3:06 PM
S&W 500, your only hope...I think!

fjmtUFrFBc4

Argonaut
01-14-2010, 3:25 PM
I am sure the vast majority of the respondents here have never shot a bear or seen one outside the zoo or circus. I carried a 45ACP as a bear backup for many years. What these black gun Ninjas never realize is that "defense" is close up, probably 15 feet or less. A 45 ACP is effective at that range. I use a 44 mag these days but mostly for it's superior long range capabilities for other game. My great uncle had a grizzly bear rug and skull that he shot with a 45LC (Same ballistics as a ACP) He was a logger and was chased up a tree by the bear. He shot it at 10 feet square between the eyes, The skull was crushed and bullet exited the back of the head. The US Army order 45 long Colt revolvers to be issued to it's Alaskan troops the turn of the century as protection from bears. The balance of the army got 38 Long Colts. On a side note, I have a buddy in Montana that spent 18 months in jail for shooting a grizzly that he claimed was attacking his kids. He shot the bear with a rifle from 50 yards as he said it was charging his kids. He was federally prosecuted for shooting an endangered species and at 50 yards he could not prove it was in defense of his kids.

jumbopanda
01-14-2010, 4:42 PM
This might be a good excuse to get a Desert Eagle.

I don't know if I'd trust it for reliability.

Renshai
01-14-2010, 4:55 PM
Crap, someone beat me to it...The .454 is a great round if you HAVE to carry a handgun....Really nice energy and with solids, its plenty for Black Bear easily. If you CAN carry a rifle, the .45-70 is an AWESOME round and easy to shoot and handle. I think its allbeen said already, so I'll leave my .02 vote on the .454 and 45-70, and at the very least, 10mm loaded as hot and heavy as you and the gun can handle. Everyone here knows I'm a big Velocity/small bullet guy for humans, but having lived in CO, with Grizz, black and of course the ubiquitious nightmare of hiker's Mountain Lion, and having seen all of them at one point or another, I wouldn't relaly feel all that comfy carrying any .45ACP round and expect much if that animal was really aggressive. If it was posturing? Yeah might give him something to think about and retreat, but a determined Black or Mtn Lion will not really care about handloaded .45ACP heebie jeebie rounds. Now .454 and above? yeah. If I had one, I'd be "ok" with a .44 Mag, but that's on the bottom end for angry bear..

five.five-six
01-14-2010, 4:57 PM
I wish this thread would just die lake anyone who used .45ACP aganst a bear


bloody

PatriotnMore
01-14-2010, 5:01 PM
Watch for bear sign http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm202/dhall61/Bear.jpg

nitrofc
01-14-2010, 5:05 PM
That sums it all up! Lol.

Moose scare me too! Them things are freakin huge.


Watch for bear sign http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm202/dhall61/Bear.jpg

five.five-six
01-14-2010, 5:05 PM
^LMMFAO!


you owe me a new coke

ldivinag
01-14-2010, 5:14 PM
S&W 2.75" barrel .500 S&W magnum for the win!


:)

Matt@EntrepriseArms
01-14-2010, 5:21 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

I was just wondering why you were looking for a battle rifle for bear protection, and then considered a handgun due to ammo prices? First of all, If you were deer or hog hunting, I'm sure the rifle you are carrying for those animals would be sufficient for bear, and you wouldn't need a handgun.

Second, if the rifle is for bear protection, that implies that you wouldn't be shooting it very often (how often do you get attacked by a bear), so ammo cost wouldn't be a factor. I can tell you for a fact that .308 will take down a black bear because I went bear hunting with a buddy of mine once and he shot a 400lb, 7ft tall black bear with a .308. A single headshot, right through the front of the skull dropped it instantly.

That reminds me - I remember going deer hunting with a buddy of mine quite a while back. Right before we set out to hike up the mountain, my buddy hands me a Beretta 92. I asked him what that was for, and he told me "in case we run into a bear." I said no thanks, I'll take my chances with the .30-30 I was carrying.

Rekrab
01-14-2010, 5:36 PM
That reminds me - I remember going deer hunting with a buddy of mine quite a while back. Right before we set out to hike up the mountain, my buddy hands me a Beretta 92. I asked him what that was for, and he told me "in case we run into a bear." I said no thanks, I'll take my chances with the .30-30 I was carrying.

Well, if I ran out of rifle ammo from a charging bear, and all but one of the pistol rounds... I know where the last pistol round would be going.

Argonaut
01-14-2010, 5:47 PM
We only carry pistols for protection when we are doing something other than hunting, like Fishing, logging, hiking or whatever. When you are hunting, your rifle is much more powerful than any pistol. Even when we grouse hunt, we just carry a few Slugs or buckshot for the gun we are using. As in combat, Pistols are always the last resort, just before your utility knife.

Argonaut
01-14-2010, 5:57 PM
When we are working on beaches in British Columbia and Alaska (we do salvage of marine vessels) we always use one guy as a bear guard. he sits somewhere high where he can see and has a scoped 375HH. We haven't had to use it for a few years but it is not uncommon to have close encounters with Brown Bear. We try to use fire cracker type noise makers before having to shoot but we have shot them too........Then you radio Fish and Game, make a report and go through an inquisition.

maddoggie13
01-14-2010, 6:04 PM
+1 on the s&w 500 mag.

sideshowhr
01-14-2010, 6:08 PM
.41 mag :p

c good
01-14-2010, 6:15 PM
The .45 ACP is perfect for bear attacks. Just before he eats you, put it in your mouth and pull the trigger! :D Not much good for anything more IMHO. c good

phamkl
01-14-2010, 8:01 PM
Umm it's shot placement, guys.

Just do them knee caps, then use the 9 iron.

klmmicro
01-14-2010, 8:13 PM
When I am out hunting in bear country, I usually have my Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 with me. I load it with 300 grain XTP's at about 1250 FPS. I have seen a hunter take a black bear with the .44 as their primary weapon. It was not much of a contest. He had a Super Redhawk loaded with 320 grain hardcast pushed to about 1100 FPS. I would trust that load to take a bear in a pinch.

Not sure where you read that a .45 ACP is similar in ballistics to a .44 Magnum. Are you sure it was not mention of hot loaded .45 Colt in a wheelgun?

J-cat
01-14-2010, 8:24 PM
Bears attack people in California?

klmmicro
01-14-2010, 8:28 PM
Bears attack people in California?

I think they attack people wherever they really feel like attacking them. A 400 to 500 pound bear can pretty much have his/her way.

J-cat
01-14-2010, 8:33 PM
According to CA DFG, there have been 12 bear attacks in the last 30 years.

loudninja
01-14-2010, 8:41 PM
The .45 ACP is perfect for bear attacks. Just before he eats you, put it in your mouth and pull the trigger! :D Not much good for anything more IMHO. c good

not if you're torn to shreds with its claws....

Argonaut
01-14-2010, 8:42 PM
When I am out hunting in bear country, I usually have my Ruger Super Blackhawk in .44 with me. I load it with 300 grain XTP at about 1250 FPS. I have seen a hunter take a black bear with the .44 as their primary weapon. It was not much of a contest. He had a Super Redhawk loaded with 320 grain hardcast pushed to about 1100 FPS. I would trust that load to take a bear in a pinch.

Not sure where you read that a .45 ACP is similar in ballistics to a .44 Magnum. Are you sure it was not mention of hot loaded .45 Colt in a wheel gun?

45ACP has nearly identical ballistics to a 45 long Colt in original loadings. There were no "hot " loads in 1938.........

Snapping Twig
01-14-2010, 10:00 PM
While the ACP and Colt are similar, they're enough different to be in a different league IMO.

ACP is a 230g bullet @ 800 fps

Colt is a 255g bullet @ 900fps.

Granted, this is subject to changes and reflects only the traditional loadings, they do cross each others paths up or down loaded, but the Colt has a bigger engine to launch bigger bullets faster.

twotap
01-15-2010, 12:06 AM
A 12 gauge is all you need for food,folks and fun..

sideshowhr
01-15-2010, 9:10 AM
^ Mossberg survival kit ftw!

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28

Bears attack people in California?

in my experience, the only time i've ever seen a bear get aggressive (and i'd think i've seen quite a few bears in my day) are if you're around their cubs. other than that, so long as you're making noise as you're hiking or fishing, they'll be long gone before you even know it. they're scaredycats just looking for the food. it's the smart ones that have learned how to get into ice chests and open car doors (read smash) that you gotta worry about.

fw190fan
01-15-2010, 5:35 PM
I am sure its been mentioned a billion times before but Ill say it again, Glock 10mm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I read the whole thread and didn't see a 10mm mentioned once.

I have no idea if it would be a good choice, but would be interested in hearing the more experienced among us chime in.

KillZone45
01-15-2010, 6:20 PM
I read the whole thread and didn't see a 10mm mentioned once.

I have no idea if it would be a good choice, but would be interested in hearing the more experienced among us chime in.

No, it would be a GREAT choice as it is one of if not the only pistol rounds aproved on the list to hunt bears. I posted not knowing if anyone had yet to say 10mm, I thought for sure that it would have been mentioned. Or you could always go with the .450+ Casull revolver round.

Just found this:
http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10mmhunt.htm

1lostinspace
01-15-2010, 6:25 PM
I was shopping for a FAL or PTR-91 for bear protection until I noticed the price for .308 ammo. So I figured what are the chances of me running into a bear while deer or hog hunting? But I sure would like a sidearm for bear protection. Currently I have a Ruger P97 in .45, will this be enough or is it a little under gunned? What are some recommendations to fill this 'perceived' need? I read that .44 magnum is ballistically similar to .45acp but I'm not familiar with that round. Thanks.

sounds like your bear bait! A 45 is not a good idea for deep penetration.
comparing it to a 44 mag is silly

J-cat
01-15-2010, 7:42 PM
^ Mossberg survival kit ftw!

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=28



in my experience, the only time i've ever seen a bear get aggressive (and i'd think i've seen quite a few bears in my day) are if you're around their cubs. other than that, so long as you're making noise as you're hiking or fishing, they'll be long gone before you even know it. they're scaredycats just looking for the food. it's the smart ones that have learned how to get into ice chests and open car doors (read smash) that you gotta worry about.

I was hiking in Azusa Canyon about 10 years ago and saw bear tracks in the snow. Or maybe they were mountain lion tracks. I dunno. I didn't pee myself either.

waltrich
01-15-2010, 7:49 PM
I wonder how the FN 5.7 would do against a bear's thick outer layer.


Not well...

It has roughly 1/4th of the energy of .44 Mag...

fw190fan
01-15-2010, 8:04 PM
No, it would be a GREAT choice as it is one of if not the only pistol rounds aproved on the list to hunt bears. I posted not knowing if anyone had yet to say 10mm, I thought for sure that it would have been mentioned. Or you could always go with the .450+ Casull revolver round.

Just found this:
http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm/10mmhunt.htm
Holy cow!

Proof positive that 10mm does the trick right there! Jeez that's a brave man.

shooterdude
02-01-2010, 9:25 AM
If you hunt bear with a handgun you NEED to file off the front site....it doesn't hurt as much when the bear shoves it up your ***....

M1A Rifleman
02-01-2010, 9:29 AM
I ran into bears while dear hunting twice in the same year - so chances are good. A 45 acp is better than throwing rocks, however many other cartidges will be better. Even a 308 win is light for brar hunting. For bear protection, my vote is a 12-gauge.

noyo55
02-01-2010, 2:17 PM
If you are worried about meeting a bear get yourself a can of GOOD quality bear spray. I have a young friend who has guided fishermen in Alaska for years. He , at last juncture has hit Brown bears with the spray on three occasions one a six feet it was in full charge and upon sprayed immediatly left the scene.The stuff is really effective, I've cooked off a can of it, down wind the gauge the effective range range of the stuff (about 20 feet ) and my eyes burned most of the day. Guides carry 12 gauge shotguns w/ slugs as their firearm of choice.
Bears do a lot of bluffing behaviors and will make false charges. MOST bear problems occur at short ranges.You need something with great shocking power to stop or turn a charge They may look like lumbering doofuses BUT they are incredibly fast, can absorb tremendous punishment and move surprisingly quietly. You DO not want to wound a bear, nonfatally, because you will create a tremendous problem for the next guy. Many bear attacks have been made by injured bears, unable to effectively hunt, think of how cranky you feel with a tooth ache!! Bears normally will leave encounters with humans, I've been close enough to Alaska Brown Bears to smell them ( a singularly unpleasant experience ) and had no problem, aside from damp shorts. I do carry the bear spray, and keep a short barreled (legal) 12 gauge with slugs, close by. I'm not sure about if you can buy the spray in California, It can be purchased on line, get the one with the greatest concentration of pepper.I bought mine in B.C. Canada.
As an aside my wife and daughter carry a can in the car, my wife keeps one on her desk, at work as there are a lot of bums (homeless) in the neighborhood. We also keep a can in the bedroom over the bed.

fullrearview
02-01-2010, 8:13 PM
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You don't need a gun!:D

Just come in with the crazy fists!

ALSystems
02-01-2010, 8:32 PM
I ran into bears while dear hunting twice in the same year - so chances are good. A 45 acp is better than throwing rocks, however many other cartidges will be better. Even a 308 win is light for bear hunting. For bear protection, my vote is a 12-gauge.
I've camped in the Mammoth, Ca area three times and seen bears each time. The first time was a sleeping cub :sleeping: which was probably the most dangerous because the mother bear must have been nearby. The second bear tore up a tent to get some scented baby wipes. Another bear was seen running up a steep mountain. The last bear was hanging out at the park benches eating someone's lunch and only about 15 feet from some people sitting on another bench. These were all black bears. They are around.

I think a 45 acp is only slightly better than throwing a stick at the bear. This will just get the bear angry. :eek: It probably works better to shoot your buddy in the leg so the bear gets him first. ;) Realistically, a 44 mag or better handgun is required. Better yet is 30-06 class rifle or 12 gauge with slugs. At least you should have a can of bear mace.

It depends where you are. A national forest where hunting is allowed, carry a gun. In a park like Yosemite, if you kill a bear in self defense, you would probably get thrown in jail no matter what the circumstances. The park should change the warning signs to "Don't feed the bears, except people". Just make sure you can run faster than your buddy. :D

Gem1950
02-01-2010, 9:58 PM
Use the spray that Dog the Bounty Hunter carries on his belt.

Maplewood
02-02-2010, 8:59 AM
As long as you can shoot the bear thru either eye and into the brain at a full charge with one hand while running in the opposite direction thru thick brush, then yes, carry the .45.