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View Full Version : No serial # on an AR


semperfidelis354
05-15-2011, 12:24 AM
Let me start off by saying I'm no LEO and I have been researching this for a while. I have some hypothetical questions on a home built AR and the whole serial # issue.

So let's say I gt pulled over with my AR in a locked case but visible, I consent to you inspecting the rifle to ensure it is being transported legally and you see it has no serial # on it at all, does this rais eyebrows or cause concern? I'm not saying I would do it necessarily and through my research through BATF if I am the manufacturer and choose to not Put on a serial # that is ok. But would it be that big of a deal necessarily? Would it cause alot more heartache and discontent for me? Thanks in advance

TRICKSTER
05-15-2011, 12:53 AM
I think that you might have some trouble convincing some less knowledgeable LEOs that it never had a serial number to begin with.
Also if the firearm was ever stolen, you would have no way to report it so that if recovered, you could get it back. I would put some type of name and number on it just so you can prove its yours. I think there are more benefits to applying a number than leaving it unmarked.

yzernie
05-15-2011, 9:52 AM
^^^What he said^^^. Another thing to think about is if you are the "Manufacturer", you'll need to have an 07 FFL.

rromeo
05-15-2011, 10:12 AM
Yzernie, that's incorrect about being the manufacturer. You do not need an 07 FFL if you're not manufacturing for resale.

yzernie
05-15-2011, 10:31 AM
LOL, tell that to my CaDoJ inspector!! I don't think they understand the difference between assembly and manufacturing!!

rromeo
05-15-2011, 10:58 AM
AK flats and 80% receivers are legal to build into rifles.

SOcal
05-15-2011, 3:39 PM
Keep in mind I am NOT a lawyer....
Manufacturing a long gun ( e.g. finish machining an 80% receiver, etc...) is completely and 100% legal as long as you are doing so for personal use, not selling them, and a few other things. There are also no legal requirement to have the receiver serialized for any reason other than your own identification purposes, such as the situation mentioned above where some unique ID mark, whether that be a serial number, you name, your portrait, etc, would be used to legally and properly identify the weapon if it were ever lost, stolen, recovered, etc.

Its a whole different ball of wax with pistols, thats a no no.....

Search around cal-guns and AR-15.com about constructing a long gun. There is a lot of info out there.

semperfidelis354
05-15-2011, 5:03 PM
thanks for the info, I understand the laws of it and understand them, my question is do the LEOs understand that who dont frequent this site?

so besides the legalities of it since I know it's legal, is it going to cause a person more trouble than its worth?

rh3431
05-15-2011, 10:27 PM
Quick and simple answer... Yes it is more trouble than its worth. Not all LEO's are gun guys and know gun laws.

TurboChrisB
05-15-2011, 10:33 PM
All the same rules apply when building a AR pistol as well. Does NOT have to be marked in any way if built for personal use.




Its a whole different ball of wax with pistols, thats a no no.....

Search around cal-guns and AR-15.com about constructing a long gun. There is a lot of info out there.

cowboykenny
05-16-2011, 2:50 AM
Ar- pistols still have to be registered as a pistol even if you build it.

cowboykenny
05-16-2011, 3:06 AM
There is also Title 27 CFR 178.92(i) and the Post 1968 serial # requirements.

ke6guj
05-16-2011, 7:26 AM
Ar- pistols still have to be registered as a pistol even if you build it.
umm, WRONG.
There is also Title 27 CFR 178.92(i) and the Post 1968 serial # requirements.which don't apply to unlicensed persons that are homebuilding firearms. however, if you do end up selling a homebuilt firearm (which is legal to do so if, when you made it, you weren't planning on reselling it), ATF has opined that you do have to follow the licensed manufacturer marking requirements, even though the code does not mention unlicensed makers at all.

Joewy
05-17-2011, 9:01 AM
umm, WRONG.
which don't apply to unlicensed persons that are homebuilding firearms. however, if you do end up selling a homebuilt firearm (which is legal to do so if, when you made it, you weren't planning on reselling it), ATF has opined that you do have to follow the licensed manufacturer marking requirements, even though the code does not mention unlicensed makers at all.

Dont all handguns have to be registered in California? Of course not US law but California law.

Also I have had quite a few guns manufactured before 1968 that have no serial numbers at all. Not homebuilt.

ke6guj
05-17-2011, 9:48 AM
Dont all handguns have to be registered in California?

nope. there is no requirement that a handgun that you own be registered. Now, if you get caught illegally CCW'ing that unregistered handgun, the penalties are greater. But to just own an unregistered handgun is not a crime.

cowboykenny
05-20-2011, 12:38 AM
What sections or codes is that stated in. I would like to read it for my own personal knowledge. Thanks

ke6guj
05-20-2011, 12:45 AM
what section is what stated in?

cowboykenny
05-20-2011, 4:48 AM
The section PC or Title section which states a hand gun does not have to be registered. I now we have run into issues with DOJ and thew will not allow a police department to release a handgun which is not registered.

ke6guj
05-20-2011, 7:19 AM
there isn't a PC section that states that a handgun doesn't have to be registered. The PC doesn't work that way. The important thing is that there is no PC section that states that it has to be registered.

Now, if you are having DOJ issues with them wanting it registered, even though the law does not require it, I dont' know what to say. I'd probably contact CGF and see if they could help.

Roddd
05-21-2011, 3:27 AM
I'm LE and an avid AR shooter. I'll admit it, I don't know the laws concerning this...I think many LEOs are ignorant to this because we are exempt from many of California's ridiculous gun laws. It would raise eyebrows but nothing serious. If you're a law abiding citizen on your way to or from a shoot, you're good to go. If possible, carry the law pertaining to this and if they give you crap, you can always reference it.

cowboykenny
05-22-2011, 9:02 PM
That is what I would like to do put a cheat sheet together to more or less educate my officers and assist the public. I have found when you can hand someone the section with the highlighted section and explain it to them it helps a great deal and takes the mystery and the he said she said out of the equation.

CSACANNONEER
05-22-2011, 9:12 PM
LOL, tell that to my CaDoJ inspector!! I don't think they understand the difference between assembly and manufacturing!!

Your CADOJ inspector must be a moron then. There is no need to have an 07 FFL to MANUFACTURE any legal firearm for PERSONAL USE. You need an 07 to manufacture or assemble a firearm with the INTENT of selling it.

I'm LE and an avid AR shooter. I'll admit it, I don't know the laws concerning this...I think many LEOs are ignorant to this because we are exempt from many of California's ridiculous gun laws. It would raise eyebrows but nothing serious. If you're a law abiding citizen on your way to or from a shoot, you're good to go. If possible, carry the law pertaining to this and if they give you crap, you can always reference it.

I'll agree with this and go even further. Manufacturing a firearm for one's personal use is a concept which 99.9% of firearms owners have ZERO knowledge about. So, those of us who actually manufacture our own firearms need to be versed enough to educate those who are willing to listen and ready to face the legal battle if we are arrested for our perfectly legally owned firearms without SNs.

cowboykenny
05-22-2011, 9:18 PM
please educate i'll listen. If you have specif codes and case law that helps me to pass it along to other officers.

Lone_Gunman
05-22-2011, 9:48 PM
LOL, tell that to my CaDoJ inspector!! I don't think they understand the difference between assembly and manufacturing!!

Nope. I'll tell The CGF and they'll tell the CA DOJ, the officer, the agency and anyone else they need to. With lawyers, if necessary. :43:

CSACANNONEER
05-22-2011, 9:49 PM
please educate i'll listen. If you have specif codes and case law that helps me to pass it along to other officers.

Please cite codes or case law which states that it is illegal to manufacture your own firearm. Unfortunately, my laptop, with all my saved links, crashed last month. Here is one opinion letter, that should be as good as any "get out of jail card" that I keep on hand.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0001.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p43/csacannoneer/IMG_0002.jpg

cowboykenny
05-25-2011, 2:13 AM
Definitely a good start.

Lostsheep
05-29-2011, 11:14 AM
With respect to homebuilt pistol registration:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php
Question 26

I know the doj is not always considered an authority around here but....

spits55
05-29-2011, 11:27 AM
This is all you need to know......unfortunately not at LEO know the laws regarding assault weapons.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0qyloA48O3XZWFjYjMwYTMtYTg1MC00NzVhL %20WI3NmMtZDRiNTMzNzdhMzUx&hl=en

TurboChrisB
05-29-2011, 12:31 PM
It's really important that anyone with a non-serialized weapon have a copy of that letter with it or with them when you take it out. My brother is a retired Riverside Sheriff with what I would consider a ABOVE average knowledge of the law. Really, he's a VERY smart guy.
When I first started my first 80% AR lower I was showing it to him and asked what he would do if he would have encountered one in the field. He had NO IDEA that one could machine their own lower and be exempt from having a serial number. He stated that finding one in the field he would have assumed that it was illegal and proceeded based on that.

So I will assume that MOST officers will not know this. It kinda defis "common sense" right? I mean we all are raised believing that removing a serial number is illegal.....so not having one "feels" illegal as well to most of us. So protect yourselves.