PDA

View Full Version : Ar 50 BMG


Buford
11-30-2006, 2:40 AM
I found a company that makes a complete 50 BMG upper that pins into a AR-15 reciever and utilizes the firing group. Now there are no #s on the upper so it don't actually exist and the AR-15 lower sealed magazine well, is legit and classified as a AR-15. So hows this stand in that gray area of the 50 BMG ban.

five.five-six
11-30-2006, 3:04 AM
I found a company that makes a complete 50 BMG upper that pins into a AR-15 reciever and utilizes the firing group. Now there are no #s on the upper so it don't actually exist and the AR-15 lower sealed magazine well, is legit and classified as a AR-15. So hows this stand in that gray area of the 50 BMG ban.


never go to the internet for legal advice. that being said, you are probably legal to own it just the same as a 11 inch upper, just so long as you do not put it on a lower :eek:

The SoCal Gunner
11-30-2006, 3:20 AM
Once you pin it onto a lower you are manufacturing an assualt weapon.

50 Shooter
11-30-2006, 8:00 AM
Don't do it! Unless you have a AW registered lower you'll be building an assault rifle in CAL DOJ's eyes and if caught will be screwed! Play safe.

The Professional
11-30-2006, 8:32 AM
Don't do it! Unless you have a AW registered lower you'll be building an assault rifle in CAL DOJ's eyes and if caught will be screwed! Play safe.

Buford has a couple of AW registered lowers. So according to you, it's alright to have it?

Hunter
11-30-2006, 8:43 AM
I.....the AR-15 lower sealed magazine well, is legit and classified as a AR-15. ...

Not sure what kind of lower you have here...FAB-10? Evans'?

Your two means of actually using the .50 BMG upper on a lower would involve one of these two methods:

1) The lower would have been purchased prior to 1/1/05 and then registered as a ".50 BMG Rifle" by 4-1-06 in order to put a .50 BMG upper on it
or

2) The lower is an AW registered lower from either the 2000 SB23 ban or the 1989 R&R ban. IF the lower was either of these and properly registered as an AW with the DOJ, then yes you can put the .50 BMG upper on it.

cornholio1
11-30-2006, 9:06 AM
I found a company that makes a complete 50 BMG upper that pins into a AR-15 reciever and utilizes the firing group. Now there are no #s on the upper so it don't actually exist and the AR-15 lower sealed magazine well, is legit and classified as a AR-15. So hows this stand in that gray area of the 50 BMG ban.


How does the 50 BMG even fit into the AR-15 magwell? It won't even fit a 308.

Hunter
11-30-2006, 9:08 AM
How does the 50 BMG even fit into the AR-15 magwell? It won't even fit a 308.

It doesn't. Most of these units are single shots but Safety Harbor does make a side mounted detachable magazine unit.

Here are two examples:

http://ferret50.com/index.html

and

http://www.safetyharborfirearms.com/UltraMag_50/ultramag_50.html

Aluisious
11-30-2006, 9:17 AM
never go to the internet for legal advice. that being said, you are probably legal to own it just the same as a 11 inch upper, just so long as you do not put it on a lower :eek:
An 11 inch upper is not legal to own if you have a lower that fits it, I thought.

Constructive possesstion or something.

I don't understand why you guys want to tempt fate.

50 Shooter
11-30-2006, 9:23 AM
Hunter,
Yes, if he has a lower that was registered as an AW it's legal to attach a .50 BMG upper to it. If he has a FAB-10 or DPMS lower it had to be registered as a .50 BMG AW prior to the deadline.

Hunter
11-30-2006, 9:37 AM
Hunter,
Yes, if he has a lower that was registered as an AW it's legal to attach a .50 BMG upper to it. If he has a FAB-10 or DPMS lower it had to be registered as a .50 BMG AW prior to the deadline.

I believe your post was in response to "The Professional's" post, as I said the same thing in my post that followed his.;)

JPglee1
11-30-2006, 9:44 AM
An 11 inch upper is not legal to own if you have a lower that fits it, I thought.

Constructive possesstion or something.

I don't understand why you guys want to tempt fate.


11" upper is legal to own, just don't keep it at the same residence as your lowers... OR, if you have 4 lowers and 4 uppers and a spare 11.5" upper, considered screwing your uppers to your lowers (bolt and a nylock nut at the pivot point) and you can demonstrate that they are "married" and it takes a tool to strip them down.

I would leave the 11" upper at someone's house.

I wanna build an 80% AR lower and remove the magazine well completeley (or block it off) and make a single-shot AR pistol that ejects and holds the bolt open. (basically a 1 round magazine with the bolt hold open, so it goes BOOM and the bolt stays back so you can drop another round thru the ejection port) I wanna use a 10.3" upper to do it, with a normal CAR buffer tube wrapped in 550 cord. I will screw the upper to the lower and then weld over the screw head so its permanently attached to that lower.

I'll do this after I finish the 100 other projects I got planned first hahaha.



J

50 Shooter
11-30-2006, 10:23 AM
Ooops, thanks for the correction(s).:)

shooterx10
11-30-2006, 10:33 AM
+1 on NOT putting a .50BMG upper on your CLOSED magwell AR with pistol grip.

However, other .50 cal AR upper makers are building uppers that will take .50 caliber variants such as .510DTC Europ or .50ALS. So long as a .50BMG round can NOT be chambered and fired in that upper! ;)

http://image2.frappr.com/pix2/i/20060701/2/7/0/270e8c09a8bc3d1f55241a86d12b29121_large.jpg

For the money, you might as well get the Serbu BFG-50 already chambered in .510 DTC for $2195. Check out: www.serbu.com

JPglee1
11-30-2006, 10:59 AM
I don't know why people don't just use the .50 Spotter round...

http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/50spotcomp.jpg
L to R: M48 Spotter / 50BMG / 20mm / 30mm


http://www.watsonsweapons.com/images/CHPT9X_18_0001.jpg

read this links for the specs:
http://www.weaponsindia.com/50spotter.htm


It is 100% legal to use in California as it is NOT a .50BMG dimensionally. For extra safety I would rebate the rim .10" to be sure a .50BMG wouldn't fit the bolt face, but the M48 spotter is SO short, theres no way a .50BMG would chamber in a chamber designed for it exclusively.

Basically, make a single shot upper with a short chambered surplus M2 barrel and be happy :D



JP

bwiese
11-30-2006, 11:34 AM
11" upper is legal to own, just don't keep it at the same residence as your lowers... OR, if you have 4 lowers and 4 uppers and a spare 11.5" upper, considered screwing your uppers to your lowers (bolt and a nylock nut at the pivot point) and you can demonstrate that they are "married" and it takes a tool to strip them down.

WRONG!!!! DO *NOT* DO THIS!!!!

Constructive possession issues w/r/t state & Federal SBR laws don't give exemption for split addresses or distance. If you have an upper at your main residence in CA and a lower in your summer home in Florida, you still do constructively possess an SBR (a real no-no) at least on a Federal basis. If your main home in the Bay Area has a lower and your CA-side Tahoe ski home has the upper, you may well constructively possess it under CA law as well.

I would not own a shorty upper or barrel UNLESS I also had a lower reg'd as pistol as well - and that pistol should be legal in CA if the pistol lower is in CA too.

Having 4 regular uppers and 4 regular lowers + a spare shorty upper kinda says the spare upper has no rational purpose (at least as regards these laws) other than being attached to one of the 4 lowers. Whether or not the regular uppers & lowers are attached/affixed or not, or do/don't require tools, is irrelevant to these matters.

Some folks are running way ahead and overinterpreting the Thompson/Center pistol & rifle vs BATF SBR matters that allowed a receiver to be configured two different ways.

For example, I'm likely getting a couple of new Colt M4 6921 barrels. These are 14.5" bbls, and I will not have/take them in my possession unless & until they get permanently lengthened to 16" via muzzle devices (1.5" FH or a Noveske piggy brake).

bwiese
11-30-2006, 11:43 AM
I found a company that makes a complete 50 BMG upper that pins into a AR-15 reciever and utilizes the firing group. Now there are no #s on the upper so it don't actually exist and the AR-15 lower sealed magazine well, is legit and classified as a AR-15. So hows this stand in that gray area of the 50 BMG ban.

There are many 50BMG AR conversions available. Perhaps some 50BMG conversions for other guns too...

CA's 50BMG ban is not a grey area, and is clear and understandable.

Some people are confusing CA 50BMG registration & status with CA Assault Weapon registration & status, I don't know why...

Bottom line:

if you have a receiver you reg'd as a 50BMG rifle before end of April 2006 (end of 50BMG registration period, I think it was end of April, not 100% sure) - and which was acquired on or before 12/31/04 - you can have it chambered in 50BMG.

If you have a receiver you got on or after 1/1/04 you should NOT have registered it as a 50BMG. (I am sure some folks have, and if things get hairy and stuff is tracked down, the 50BMG reg will likely be invalid.) If for some reason you have done this, it's best to surrender/cancel your registration.


It is of course legal to put a 50BMG upper on a closed-magwell AR receiver, if and only if the above dates are complied with. Many folks got FAB10 lowers and DPMS single-shot lowers on or before 12/31/04, and reg'd them as 50BMGs before April '06 50BMG reg period cutoff.


if you have any CA-registered Assault Weapon that was registered during the 90s (either via Roberti-Roos reg in 1990, a later catchup reg period, the SB23 generic AW reg period during 2000, or the Kasler reg period for ARs/AKs ending 1/22/2001), you can add a 50BMG kit without additional separate registration. There is an exemption in Penal Code for this, to stop confusion/labor of registering one gun in two fashions.


CA's ban only refers to 50BMG specifically, and specifies actual case dimensions in Penal Code. Any o
other cal .50 firearms are perfectly legal - 510DTC, 50 Beowulf, 500 S&W, 500 Linebaugh, a Desert Eagle in 50-something, etc.

The Professional
11-30-2006, 11:47 AM
There are many 50BMG AR conversions available. Perhaps some 50BMG conversions for other guns too...

CA's 50BMG ban is not a grey area, and is clear and understandable.

Some people are confusing CA 50BMG registration & status with CA Assault Weapon registration & status, I don't know why...

Bottom line:

if you have a receiver you reg'd as a 50BMG rifle before end of April 2006 (end of 50BMG registration period, I think it was end of April, not 100% sure) - and which was acquired on or before 12/31/04 - you can have it chambered in 50BMG.


if you have any CA-registered Assault Weapon that was registered during the 90s (either via Roberti-Roos reg in early 90s, a catchup reg period, or SB23 reg period during 2000, or the Kasler reg period for ARs/AKs ending 1/22/2001), you can add a 50BMG kit without additional separate registration. There is an exemption in Penal Code for this, to stop confusion/labor of registering one gun in two fashions.


CA's ban only refers to 50BMG specifically, and specifies actual case dimensions in Penal Code. Other caliber .50 firearms are perfectly legal - 50 510DTC, 50 Beowulf, 500 S&W, etc.



I knew Bill would chime in...thanks for the very detailed info. Much appreciated!:)

JPglee1
11-30-2006, 11:52 AM
WRONG!!!! DO *NOT* DO THIS!!!!

Constructive possession issues w/r/t state & Federal SBR laws don't give exemption for split addresses or distance. If you have an upper at your main residence in CA and a lower in your summer home in Florida, you still do constructively possess an SBR (a real no-no) at least on a Federal basis. .


Right... but if you don't own any AR-15s at all, you can have any upper you wan't without fear of retribution.

OR, if you own AR-15s and your friend has no guns at all, he could legally own an 11.5" upper. Heck he could also have one of those "Pre-81" Drop In Auto Sears and be 100% legal, as long as he doesn't own/control/possess any AR-15 type weapons...



I still say it's legal to build an 80% AR-15 receiver into a pistol.

You'd have to make it a single shot pistol with a fixed magazine (I would block it to ONE shot capacity, so the bolt hold open function would still work)


As I read CA gun laws, a SINGLE SHOT pistol is exempt from the drop testing requirements.


As such if you had a lower with a permanently affixed ONE round magazine (I'm thinking proprietary short mag well, no mag release and a short 1 shot magazine), the upper was screwed to the lower and blind-welded over and you stamped "PROTOTYPE FOR DROP TESTING" on the receiver, you'd be 100% covered as single shot pistols are exempt from drop testing anyway.


I want a 1 round magazine so it will eject the shot, hold the bolt back and allow me to drop another round right into the ejection port. Hit the bolt release, fire the single round and repeat.

Then, if you ever moved to NV or AZ you could put that upper onto a dedicated 100% pistol lower and be good to go.


Thoughts? Comments?



JP

shooterx10
11-30-2006, 1:00 PM
Of course Bweise is gonna chime on! :D

I also want to add (purely a suggestion) that if you want to do the OLL AR + .50 cal variant upper combo, keep a .50bmg dummy/practice round or a live .50bmg round, or a .50bmg loaded with no primer or powder in case a LEO asks you for "your papers" on your .50 caliber variant. Kindly take your .50bmg round and try to chamber it into the upper. It should NOT! :D

As a side note have the builder engrave the chambering on the upper i.e. .510 DTC Europ, .50ALS, M48 Spotter, etc.

It would help to take a long a copy of AB50 to show that it targets the .50bmg chambered rifle only.

Anyone dare to get a Browning M2 recently? :p

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/imgs/50cal.jpg

DRH
11-30-2006, 1:00 PM
I found a company that makes a complete 50 BMG upper that pins into a AR-15 reciever and utilizes the firing group. Now there are no #s on the upper so it don't actually exist and the AR-15 lower sealed magazine well, is legit and classified as a AR-15. So hows this stand in that gray area of the 50 BMG ban.

The safety Harbor Ultra Mag-50 upper although a non-firearm still has a serial number (I got #004). I would imagine that the ferret upper is also serialize for warranty/product control.

As for the SBR NFA constructive possession, I believe the term they use is "under your control". It does not reference possession or location. It could be you left it at a friends house, but you could retreive it at any time and therefore it is still under your control. The NFA stuff is not something to go into the gray areas on.

Hunter
11-30-2006, 1:04 PM
...
Anyone dare to get a Browning M2 recently?

I sent in a letter asking for clarification/ruling on it.....let see if/when they respond.:rolleyes:

DRH
11-30-2006, 1:33 PM
The Fifty Caliber Institute FCI has also asked the DOJ for clarification on the M2HB vs 50BMG rifle ban and SB23.

mltrading
11-30-2006, 1:58 PM
The safety Harbor Ultra Mag-50 upper although a non-firearm still has a serial number (I got #004). I would imagine that the ferret upper is also serialize for warranty/product control.

As for the SBR NFA constructive possession, I believe the term they use is "under your control". It does not reference possession or location. It could be you left it at a friends house, but you could retreive it at any time and therefore it is still under your control. The NFA stuff is not something to go into the gray areas on.

No, my F-50 does not have serial numbers on the upper.

mrkubota
12-03-2006, 10:14 PM
The safety Harbor Ultra Mag-50 upper although a non-firearm still has a serial number (I got #004).....


Hmmm, maybe it's not a serial number???
Here's mine....#0004 made in 2003...

http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/umag_asr6b.jpg

5968
12-06-2006, 8:20 PM
I wish that I would have gotten off my butt and bought one prior to the ban. I had the money and was looking at a Barrett 99 just before they banned em. I don't know why, but for some reason I just decided not to get it. My mistake!!

LAK Supply
12-06-2006, 8:27 PM
Check out the Boewulf 50 instead. It's a great conversion, and you couldn't ask for much more in the way of power.

tenpercentfirearms
12-06-2006, 9:02 PM
Check out the Boewulf 50 instead. It's a great conversion, and you couldn't ask for much more in the way of power.
Talk about apples to oranges. :eek:

DRH
12-06-2006, 11:18 PM
Hmmm, maybe it's not a serial number???
Here's mine....#0004 made in 2003...

Cisco, I was recalling the serial number from memory (which is not too good anymore) and mixed it up with my FN38 serial number which is 004. My Ultra mag is 0006. I got to meet Walter at the SAR show last weekend, he is a good guy.

M24
12-07-2006, 10:04 AM
Cisco, I was recalling the serial number from memory (which is not too good anymore) and mixed it up with my FN38 serial number which is 004. My Ultra mag is 0006. I got to meet Walter at the SAR show last weekend, he is a good guy.

I've had 2 SHF uppers, and both had numbers on them, but I would consider them "ID" numbers. I think the uppers have had some small design changes, like the muzzle brake design. They probably put #s on them so they know who bought which ones, and to also know the approximate date of manufacture. That's just a guess, I have no real concrete info on the #s.

Back to the nature of the thread, I believe some of the upper manufacturers are looking at offering their products with a CA legal bbl which is near a 50BMG, but not that specific round. I don't recall the exact round they are considering. You might want to call a few of them and ask them. It will be a legal route for you to take if you want something of that nature.

mrkubota
12-07-2006, 7:12 PM
......, I believe some of the upper manufacturers are looking at offering their products with a CA legal bbl which is near a 50BMG, but not that specific round. I don't recall the exact round they are considering. You might want to call a few of them and ask them. It will be a legal route for you to take if you want something of that nature.


Yep... that'd be the .50DTC cartridge.
It's made from a .50bmg case, shortened 1/10" inch. Shoulder set back and angle changed, then fireformed to blow out the case walls a little.

Walter at SHF is close to shipping his .50DTC models pretty soon...
Jerry Hazlett of AmerICan Ent. of Oklahoma is making the ammo if you don't want to reload it yourself. (EDM Arms in Redlands, CA is selling it locally)

Here's the way I make it for my own Serbu .50DTC rifle:
http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/50dtc/BMG_DTC_conv.jpg

http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/50dtc/cart_comp_00.jpg

The 'other' legal .50 is the M48 Spotter as pictured above... UltraLite50.com makes a conversion upper that shoots it. (http://www.daplane.com/50bmg/ul50rpt.htm)