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Excelsior
05-09-2011, 2:43 PM
Why is it that so many claim that XYX firearm "needs a trip to the 'smith?"

Given the accuracy and precision of today's manufacturing processes and quality assurance methods why is there still such a need for "hand work" -- or is there? I can see where a mass-produced firearm would not have potentially dangerous attributes -- like a very light trigger for instance which might mandate a "trip to the smith" but I don't see why "mass produced" equates to inferior -- or why a 'smith needs to be called upon to iron-out the problems.

I've asked this question to people in person and they say "because XYZ is a mass-produced pistol." So? Then they will say something like "it's best to send them to a 'smith to smooth them out." Why aren't they "smooth" from the factory? What can a 'smith do at his bench that design engineers/manufacturing engineers and skilled production workers cannot do?

Today's mass-production of firearms is (or at least it should be) far more accurate and precise than in years past. While a firearm is a precision machine, most are not terribly complicated machines and should not require "hand fitting" if their designs are excellent to begin with and they are built from quality materials with accurate/precise production processes and people.

Is the "trip to a 'smith" (except for potentially dangerous modifications) more lore than fact these days or are manufacturers shipping garbage that requires rework?

CALI SHOT DOC
05-09-2011, 3:07 PM
I think it may be for people who don't get enough trigger time and thats the excuse they have for all shots going low to the left and with a 10 in group:rofl2:

Maybe they just don't know or aren't comfortable doing a trigger job, put sights on, etc.

I don't think "because XYZ is a mass produced pistol" is a valid reason in anyway. Each gun is inspected and fired before leaving the factory. I have the belief that any gun i purchase no matter how expensive or inexpensive it is will not reach it's full potential due to me as the operator. Not saying that i'm a bad shot or believe to be but the research, engineering, testing and production is at such a high level i'll just never outperform what it's made to do

jyo
05-09-2011, 3:13 PM
Guns today ARE the best mass-produced firearms ever made in terms of function---however, you may still come upon a piece that needs attention/customization---you might need a proper gunsmith to perform the modifications you desire. The key word here is PROPER gunsmith!

jakuda
05-09-2011, 3:20 PM
Personally, for the Bullseye shooting that I do, I need the accuracy and trigger pull is very important. For non-bullseye shooters, factory accuracy from modern gun satisfies 99% of shooters out there. Even IDPA/USPSA type shooters don't need 1" groups at 25 yards. For bullseye, the gun better hold 1" at 25 yards and 3" (ideally 2") at 50 yards. If a stock gun doesn't, then it goes to a gunsmith to fit a Kart barrel and bushing. If the trigger pull is too heavy (most 1911s are 4-5 pounds from the factory), then the smith can make it a clean breaking 3.5 lbs, or make it a roll trigger at 3.5 lbs.

I believe most shooters treat their guns like they do other retail products like a desktop PC or car. Upgrade ram, upgrade hard drive, upgrade stereo...upgrade...upgrade... Some upgrades are necessary for the specific user...some upgrades are just for the sake of upgrading.

wu_dot_com
05-09-2011, 3:40 PM
to many, they usually go seek gun smiting because they either are not conformable to do the work themselves or dont care to learn how to.

within my group of friends, i am one of the few that actually detail disassemble all my guns just so i can learn how the internal works. most of my friends cant even fully disassemble their guns with simple tools. fear of the unknown is what drives them to the "Professionals".

scidx
05-09-2011, 3:56 PM
There are still a few simple modifications or fine-tuning points that can only be had from individual, focused hands. There may come a time when all factory options do not statisfy. Still, some people appreciate the elegant touch of a master gunsmith, in comparison, to the hand of an amateur or rookie. I myself am not a master gunsmith. If I want something done with no chance of blemish, I would call a 'smith. Also, I don't own the latest in heavy shop machinery. If I want a job done that requires a tool I don't have, I would call somebody that has one.

There are certain mechanical skills that come only from practice. Like shooting, there are a lot that can do it; but, there are very few that do it masterfully.

Bullwinkle
05-09-2011, 4:00 PM
Depends what you want. Since you're talking about modern-day manufacturing processes, I'll assume we're limiting the discussion to brand new guns only.

Well, my opinion (and that's exactly what it is, an opinion), is that no, a brand new gun from a reputable manufacturer does not need a trip to the 'smith to be reliable... for the most part. I've had guns that had to be worked on, though; but I also can't figure out why anyone would send a brand new gun off to a 3rd-party 'smith to be fixed (and void their warranty) when they could send it direct to the factory and have it worked on under warranty by gunsmiths who solely work on those models and (presumably) know them better than anyone else. Well, depending on whether the manufacturer pays the shipping cost, that is; if they don't, then (a) they're not reputable and (b) then it's probably better to have a local 'smith work on it, if you can find a good one you trust.

But "need" and "want" are two different things.

Even reputable manufacturers leave tool marks and burrs (CZ comes notoriously to mind). Mass production is mass production no matter how modern the techniques may be, and the guns do not as a general rule get personalized attention. Those tool marks and burrs should certainly be smoothed out in critical areas (the feed ramp, for example). A good throat job and polished chamber enhances reliability. A tuned extractor can eliminate malfs. Trigger work can significantly improve the stock trigger pull. A previous poster mentioned accuracy enhancement. Custom finishes might reduce corrosion better than stock finishes, or just plain make the gun look nicer. Maybe you want some engraving done. There are lots of reasons why you might want to take your gun to a 'smith if you have the means and desire to do so.

Now the big question... define "reputable" manufacturer. Is Kel-Tec a reputable manufacturer? I think they are, yet I've had to send my P-40 to them twice for service (the P-40 really packs a kick, and I imagine there's quite a strain on parts). Is Sig Sauer a reputable manufacturer? Again, all snobbery about older West German models vs Ron Cohen specials aside, I think the answer would have to be a resounding yes overall; but I have a sigpro that doesn't work 100% with Wally World ammo whereas all my other guns do. What about CZ? Again, I think yes, but I had to send my 75 in for a DA problem. Is Taurus a reputable manufacturer? Para-Ordnance? A lot of folks, especially here on CalGuns, would say no to either one... yet I have a revolver from Taurus and two 1911's from Para that haven't given me any problem. [Well, to be honest, the Taurus had a problem once that a drop of oil fixed.]

So there's a lot of variance within the same model line, too, and hence yet another reason to have a 'smith go over your pistol and smooth it out, i.e. the "controversial" reliability package... throat the barrel, work the extractor, etc etc (controversial only because some individuals adhere to the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy, which is okay, but I won't knock people who are trying to lessen the potential for problems via a reliability package, either).

For me personally, I wouldn't send a gun that's still under warranty to a non-factory 'smith; but that's just me. I'm a simple guy and don't have any unusual requirements other than reliability and combat accuracy. OTOH, I wouldn't use anything I didn't feel 100% confident in, either... so even if a trip to the 'smith does no more for reliability than boost the owner's confidence, then that's money well spent in my book (assuming no degradation in performance occurs, of course!).

nagorb
05-09-2011, 4:07 PM
My old S&W 686 kicks *** compared to the new ones they put out now, mass produced with looser tolerances.

While I do agree that most guns will function fine with mass production you lose correct tolerances etc as the process goes.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 4:28 PM
Guns today ARE the best mass-produced firearms ever made in terms of function---however, you may still come upon a piece that needs attention/customization---you might need a proper gunsmith to perform the modifications you desire. The key word here is PROPER gunsmith!
That's a good point. Some people might want to actually change things like sights and in some cases it would be good to have a smith do that. But the notion that all/most guns need "trigger jobs" is fairly ridiculous to me.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 4:42 PM
...Even reputable manufacturers leave tool marks and burrs (CZ comes notoriously to mind). Mass production is mass production no matter how modern the techniques may be, and the guns do not as a general rule get personalized attention. Those tool marks and burrs should certainly be smoothed out in critical areas (the feed ramp, for example). A good throat job and polished chamber enhances reliability. A tuned extractor can eliminate malfs. Trigger work can significantly improve the stock trigger pull. A previous poster mentioned accuracy enhancement. Custom finishes might reduce corrosion better than stock finishes, or just plain make the gun look nicer. Maybe you want some engraving done. There are lots of reasons why you might want to take your gun to a 'smith if you have the means and desire to do so.

That's simply not true. The whole point is if a gun is well designed, if it is made of high quality materials with high quality manufacturing processes by trained personnel the quality of the finished product should not rely on what essentially amounts to an inspection/rework cycle until it meets that last person's expectations. IF a process renders a gun with burrs then it's not a quality process and that's the reason for what amounts to inspection/rework.

Further "trigger work" should be able to change but not improve trigger pull. I can see where Ruger would not want to ship guns with a 1-2 pound trigger. That concern drove Savage to invent to their Accutrigger. But to actually improve the trigger pull? My question would then be why isn't the production process replicating what the smith is doing?

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 4:46 PM
My old S&W 686 kicks *** compared to the new ones they put out now, mass produced with looser tolerances.

While I do agree that most guns will function fine with mass production you lose correct tolerances etc as the process goes.
What do you even mean by "mass production?" To suggest that "with mass production you lose correct tolerances etc as the process goes" is factually wrong. That's urban legend OR sloppy manufacturing and I wouldn't knowingly buy a gun from such a manufacturer.

I would be willing to bet that a brand new toyota off the line has just as tight of "tolerances" that a brand new rolls royce or astin martin does. Actually they are likely tighter. The notion that you "lose correct tolerances etc as the process goes" is horribly wrong. Good manufacturers use methods like statistical process control and other tools to monitor and control that "loss."

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 4:48 PM
There are still a few simple modifications or fine-tuning points that can only be had from individual, focused hands. There may come a time when all factory options do not statisfy. Still, some people appreciate the elegant touch of a master gunsmith, in comparison, to the hand of an amateur or rookie. I myself am not a master gunsmith. If I want something done with no chance of blemish, I would call a 'smith. Also, I don't own the latest in heavy shop machinery. If I want a job done that requires a tool I don't have, I would call somebody that has one.

There are certain mechanical skills that come only from practice. Like shooting, there are a lot that can do it; but, there are very few that do it masterfully.
Like what? If they are of value to the customer why don't the factories due them, particularly if they are simple? I also suspect that the assemblers and testers at say Ruger have strong mechanical skills and tons of practice.

bline01
05-09-2011, 5:01 PM
in my opinion, it's all about getting the full or near full potential out of a factory firearm...manufacturers cut corners so they can cut costs and save money for us consumers...

same thing with cars and tuning, adding aftermarket parts, etc...

jyo
05-09-2011, 5:09 PM
Having managed a couple of gunstores, all that I can say is I have seen many many home gunsmithed handguns and rifles and the ability of most people to do their own work on guns is VERY dismal! A select few can work on their own weapons---the rest don't have the skill or the tools and lack basic mechanical knowledge to get anywhere near the insides of their guns---again I say, take it to a real gunsmith---the life you save maybe your own or your loved ones---this is serious stuff!

jakuda
05-09-2011, 5:11 PM
Like what? If they are of value to the customer why don't the factories due them, particularly if they are simple? I also suspect that the assemblers and testers at say Ruger have strong mechanical skills and tons of practice.

$$$$

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 5:11 PM
in my opinion, it's all about getting the full or near full potential out of a factory firearm...manufacturers cut corners so they can cut costs and save money for us consumers...

same thing with cars and tuning, adding aftermarket parts, etc...
Like what? What corners do manufacturers cut that gunsmiths must fix?

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 5:14 PM
$$$$
No way.

That used to be the prime reason given for American cars not matching up to Japanese cars. The truth was quite different.

If someone buys a gun and puts adjustable fiber optic sights on it, that makes sense. But the comments I hear like "I just received XYZ and I'll send it to the smith next week to make sure she won't fail during competition" makes no sense to me unless manufacturers are shipping garbage that requires rework.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 5:16 PM
Having managed a couple of gunstores, all that I can say is I have seen many many home gunsmithed handguns and rifles and the ability of most people to do their own work on guns is VERY dismal! A select few can work on their own weapons---the rest don't have the skill or the tools and lack basic mechanical knowledge to get anywhere near the insides of their guns---again I say, take it to a real gunsmith---the life you save maybe your own or your loved ones---this is serious stuff!
Sure, that makes sense. But that's not really my question.

Why do some people think new guns need a trip to the smith UNLESS they actually want to change something on their firearms?

jdg30
05-09-2011, 5:17 PM
Like what? If they are of value to the customer why don't the factories due them, particularly if they are simple? I also suspect that the assemblers and testers at say Ruger have strong mechanical skills and tons of practice.

I think that the more fine tuning details a company does to their guns, the higher the price will be. I have Ruger revolvers, pistols and rifles and they are very nice guns for the money. They do come somewhat rough around the edges stock but they also are very affordable. There may be some better tuned guns out of the box but look at the price comparison, they're usually more expensive.

Gun manufacturers cater to different markets and Ruger provides high quality guns at a modest price. If someone wants to pay more to get different results in their guns they can either buy a different brand, pay someone to make the gun how they want or do the work themselves. I've personally done work to most my Rugers and others including cleaning up the action, minor trigger work, changing springs, changing components, installing different sights etc. to make my stock guns how I want them. I enjoy changing certain things about my guns and then enjoying the results. I'm glad that most people don't have the same gun as I do after I work on it.

The manufacturers make guns that work, but everyone has different things the like and want in a gun and so that's why they improve the gun from stock form. For some people, stock guns work just fine. For others, they want a level that improves the gun for them. I've found that doing certain work on my guns can be very time consuming to do a good job. If manufacturers put this level of effort into every gun most people couldn't afford them.

Merc1138
05-09-2011, 5:22 PM
Like what? What corners do manufacturers cut that gunsmiths must fix?

Not everything that a manufacturer decides not to do, is something that requires fixing.

Do manufactures need to spend extra time with slides on the CNC machine to lighten them? Nope.

Do manufacturers need to make everything with a 2 pound trigger or spend the time to engineer an adjustable trigger? Nope.

Do manufacturers need to put nightsights on every model? Nope.

Maybe they want a specific model but would prefer the corners on it rounded off more for carry? Maybe they want stippling done?

You have a base model, and people buy the base model they want and make changes based on what they personally want. Maybe someone actually wants a S&W sigma but doesn't want the crappy trigger for personal use that departments don't seem to have an issue with? Maybe the manufacturer doesn't produce a model that comes stock with night sights?

Sure, a lot of the work could even be done at home, but not everyone has the time or tools. Why spend the money to get the tools to do something maybe once or twice? What if you don't know exactly what you're doing when you could take it to a shop that warranties their work?

You seem to be failing to understand something about mass production. You're right that mass production does not need to equate to inferior, but it does equate to a limited amount of options available unless you spend even more money for a company to do something custom for you(and not every company will do that).

Just because Bob likes a stock 4 pound trigger pull, doesn't mean that Jim does.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 6:25 PM
I think that the more fine tuning details a company does to their guns, the higher the price will be. I have Ruger revolvers, pistols and rifles and they are very nice guns for the money. They do come somewhat rough around the edges stock but they also are very affordable. There may be some better tuned guns out of the box but look at the price comparison, they're usually more expensive.

Gun manufacturers cater to different markets and Ruger provides high quality guns at a modest price. If someone wants to pay more to get different results in their guns they can either buy a different brand, pay someone to make the gun how they want or do the work themselves. I've personally done work to most my Rugers and others including cleaning up the action, minor trigger work, changing springs, changing components, installing different sights etc. to make my stock guns how I want them. I enjoy changing certain things about my guns and then enjoying the results. I'm glad that most people don't have the same gun as I do after I work on it.

The manufacturers make guns that work, but everyone has different things the like and want in a gun and so that's why they improve the gun from stock form. For some people, stock guns work just fine. For others, they want a level that improves the gun for them. I've found that doing certain work on my guns can be very time consuming to do a good job. If manufacturers put this level of effort into every gun most people couldn't afford them.
I can see how a manufacturer would choose not to ship a gun with a very low trigger pressure for safety/liability reasons and I could see someone changing that or having it changed -- same with having different parts changed. But "cleaning up the action, minor trigger work"? What does that really mean? Further deburring and polishing or what? Deburring and polishing can be very cheap to do in "mass production" so why doesn't Ruger do it is it gives them an edge over their competitors?

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 6:31 PM
Not everything that a manufacturer decides not to do, is something that requires fixing.

Do manufactures need to spend extra time with slides on the CNC machine to lighten them? Nope.

Do manufacturers need to make everything with a 2 pound trigger or spend the time to engineer an adjustable trigger? Nope.

Do manufacturers need to put nightsights on every model? Nope.

Maybe they want a specific model but would prefer the corners on it rounded off more for carry? Maybe they want stippling done?

You have a base model, and people buy the base model they want and make changes based on what they personally want. Maybe someone actually wants a S&W sigma but doesn't want the crappy trigger for personal use that departments don't seem to have an issue with? Maybe the manufacturer doesn't produce a model that comes stock with night sights?

Sure, a lot of the work could even be done at home, but not everyone has the time or tools. Why spend the money to get the tools to do something maybe once or twice? What if you don't know exactly what you're doing when you could take it to a shop that warranties their work?

You seem to be failing to understand something about mass production. You're right that mass production does not need to equate to inferior, but it does equate to a limited amount of options available unless you spend even more money for a company to do something custom for you(and not every company will do that).

Just because Bob likes a stock 4 pound trigger pull, doesn't mean that Jim does.
Not true. I acknowledged that people might choose to take their guns to a smith for new sights or what have you. But for a "trigger job?" Why don't the guns leave the factory with "clean triggers?"

So you know back in the day You could order a base line Toyota Corolla in something like 14 total different total combinations of paint color, interior color, etc. You could order the corresponding GM products in over 1,000 theoretical combinations -- all for about the same price as the Toyota product. Mass production need not (and does not) equate to simple production but it certainly makes things easier.

The analogy I would need is that of buying a new car. One might opt for custom wheels and tires. That would make sense. But to have the engine torn apart to "clean things up" would have me buying another car from a different manufacturer...

Merc1138
05-09-2011, 6:40 PM
Because they don't care? If they find out the bulk of their buyers are taking their guns to a shop to get that type of work done, it's possible they could change their minds. But unless ruger sees a drop in sales(and if anything they've seen more sales lately) and find out it's due to the trigger, I wouldn't expect them to change.

Also consider how much guns cost with all of the "pro gunsmithing work" already included. Just think for a moment why a kimber 1911 costs $1200 and an RIA 1911 only costs $500. Sure, a large portion of that is due to material and manufacturing costs, but at the same time Kimber puts more "detail work" into their guns(I really just can't think of a better word for this) and the end result is that people are willing to pay more for that out of the box. That's the market Kimber competes for. Ruger doesn't seem to be after that market, they're after the people willing to spend $400-$800, and most of those folks don't get gunsmithing work done. Even the ones that do wanted that specific pistol and don't mind paying $60-$100 for a trigger job.

Look at Rolex and Casio. Both of 'em make watches, one company sells to people looking to spend $500 and up, the other company sells to people willing to spend $15 and up. Doesn't mean that the $15 buyers never get a different watchband.

Polishing out every tooling mark on every surface takes time, time = money, thus it takes a company more money. They could be producing more guns to sell for $500 instead of making fewer guns to sell for $800.

This isn't just Ruger either, I also mentioned RIA. Even FN, Glock, Beretta, and other companies all do the same thing. Even the auto industry, why doesn't every car manufacturer port and polish the heads on the engine? Because not everyone cares and it'd drive the costs up. Some manufacturers do that sort of work out of the box(so to speak), and their product costs more.

If you've got a product that 10,000 people are willing to buy for $500, but you could spend more time and money on it and have a product that only 1000 people were willing to buy for $800, which would you rather produce? Just because it would cost less to do something in mass production, doesn't mean that it's free. Ruger may not want to spend the extra money and time on equipment to polish the sear faces as well as it could be done by hand. It's not impossible, but if the product sells fine without that then why bother?

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 7:01 PM
Because they don't care? If they find out the bulk of their buyers are taking their guns to a shop to get that type of work done, it's possible they could change their minds. But unless ruger sees a drop in sales(and if anything they've seen more sales lately) and find out it's due to the trigger, I wouldn't expect them to change.

You're suggesting they don't care about a possible increase in sales because their guns no longer require "trigger jobs?"

Also consider how much guns cost with all of the "pro gunsmithing work" already included. Just think for a moment why a kimber 1911 costs $1200 and an RIA 1911 only costs $500. Sure, a large portion of that is due to material and manufacturing costs, but at the same time Kimber puts more "detail work" into their guns(I really just can't think of a better word for this) and the end result is that people are willing to pay more for that out of the box. That's the market Kimber competes for. Ruger doesn't seem to be after that market, they're after the people willing to spend $400-$800, and most of those folks don't get gunsmithing work done. Even the ones that do wanted that specific pistol and don't mind paying $60-$100 for a trigger job.

Better to compare a Colt with a Kimber. For years we heard how people would buy 1911's from Colt and then send them "to the smith" but now that wasn't necessary with Kimbers -- that sell at an even lower price. Or compare Ruger to Kimber -- I suspect the SR1911 is going to put a huge amount of pressure on one or more Kimber guns. By the way, what exactly IS a "trigger job?"

Look at Rolex and Casio. Both of 'em make watches, one company sells to people looking to spend $500 and up, the other company sells to people willing to spend $15 and up. Doesn't mean that the $15 buyers never get a different watchband.

What?

Polishing out every tooling mark on every surface takes time, time = money, thus it takes a company more money. They could be producing more guns to sell for $500 instead of making fewer guns to sell for $800.

So you say. I love the example of a transaxle designed by Chrysler. They built it in Kokomo Indiana and Mitsubishi built them somewhere in Japan. During the start of production Chrysler was having all kinds of problems and Mitsubishi was not. Finally they inspected some units side by side. Even though the Chrysler unit met the design spec it looked visually rough compared to the Mitsubishi unit which looked jewel-like in comparison and produced at a lower cost. Mitsubishi's answer was that they continually strive to reduce variation in their production process and the result was very tight adherence to nominal design dimensions which resulted in lower costs.

In other words design a manufacturing process that leaves fewer or finer tool marks and if you can't, find a way to remove them using a secondary operation that costs next to nothing in a high volume manufacturing environment.

This isn't just Ruger either, I also mentioned RIA. Even FN, Glock, Beretta, and other companies all do the same thing. Even the auto industry, why doesn't every car manufacturer port and polish the heads on the engine? Because not everyone cares and it'd drive the costs up. Some manufacturers do that sort of work out of the box(so to speak), and their product costs more.

Covered.

If you've got a product that 10,000 people are willing to buy for $500, but you could spend more time and money on it and have a product that only 1000 people were willing to buy for $800, which would you rather produce? Just because it would cost less to do something in mass production, doesn't mean that it's free. Ruger may not want to spend the extra money and time on equipment to polish the sear faces as well as it could be done by hand. It's not impossible, but if the product sells fine without that then why bother?
The fallacy is that you equate whatever takes place during a "trigger job" to necessarily costing more for the manufacturer to complete. I don't think that's true. What exactly takes place? I know about the possible spring replacements and the "polishing." What else?

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:09 PM
Because most production pistols have to balance cost, a reasonable amount of tolerances that you can grab parts out of a bin and have it fit a 1,000 other handguns. With a smith, they can produce superior parts with tolerances made for your specific handgun not 100 others. Say an acceptable clearance from a manufacturer is .05-.15 for some critical parts and you're on the extreme end with one part while another is on the other extreme end... It may function fine according to the manufacturers specs but it may be an area that could be optimized for function and reliability.

G-forceJunkie
05-09-2011, 7:14 PM
As someone that works in manufacturing, here is my take. Every part has an ideal size with limits on how much bigger or smaller it can be. Same for surface finish. Every time you drill a hole, or grind a trigger surface, or machine a slot...it will be different than the previous one, and the next one will be different as well. No two parts are ever the same, ever. The cutting tool or stone or abrasive belt wears a little with each part made. Each machine spindle will have a different amount of runout, bearing vibration, or tool post rigidity based on it is age, maintance, ect. So the issue for manufactures is to set a limit on what is acceptable and what is junk (based on price point, required longevity, etc.) for each part. This is done by determining how far out maiting parts can be, and setting a acceptable range to get the required function. So now that you have a pile of parts, with varying levels of size and surface finish and you bolt them all together randomly. As suspected, you get various levels of "quality" or "fit and finish' Some guns are tighter, some looser, some rougher, some smoother. Some are awesome out of the box, some could use a little hand fitting by a gunsmith to make that particular pile of parts mesh together better. Companys like S&W or Colt or Ruger or whoever choose the level of quality they want tp put into a gun based on what price they want to sell it at. Its not that they could not do better...they just choose to set the bar (and the price) a little lower.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:18 PM
Depends what you want. Since you're talking about modern-day manufacturing processes, I'll assume we're limiting the discussion to brand new guns only.

Well, my opinion (and that's exactly what it is, an opinion), is that no, a brand new gun from a reputable manufacturer does not need a trip to the 'smith to be reliable... for the most part. I've had guns that had to be worked on, though; but I also can't figure out why anyone would send a brand new gun off to a 3rd-party 'smith to be fixed (and void their warranty) when they could send it direct to the factory and have it worked on under warranty by gunsmiths who solely work on those models and (presumably) know them better than anyone else. Well, depending on whether the manufacturer pays the shipping cost, that is; if they don't, then (a) they're not reputable and (b) then it's probably better to have a local 'smith work on it, if you can find a good one you trust.






You're comparing reputable Gunsmiths of who some are engineers themself to those who assemble guns or are a factory armorer? Yes some have "Custom" shops that are better than others but not all makes do.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:21 PM
That's a good point. Some people might want to actually change things like sights and in some cases it would be good to have a smith do that. But the notion that all/most guns need "trigger jobs" is fairly ridiculous to me.


It's individual preference, some people have never felt a good trigger to know if they want one, some don't feel the need for it at all and others feel like it may help them shoot more accurately.

Cokebottle
05-09-2011, 7:22 PM
Tolerance stackup.

Something can be designed and the tooling manufactured to make a perfect piece.
But every part has a tolerance.

Maybe the slide is in tolerance at .002 out.
Maybe the frame is in tolerance at .002 out.

If both are out in the same direction, you have a fit that is as designed.
If they are out opposite directions, you either have a very tight fit that just needs some break-in time, or you have the fit of a 60 year old Vegas brothel emloyee and it'll never get better.

In reality, it is rare that tolerance stackup causes significant issues (I was told be a Douglas engineer that if all of the tolerances were maxed out in the same direction on an MD80 the plane would be something like 6" longer), but mass produced is mass produced.
It's a balance of cost and quality. Engineer tight tolerances and you have a Kimber. Nice peice, but not 100% out of the box... takes some break in time. Engineer loose tolerances and you have Taurus and RIA. Nice guns, go bang every time, but comparing the two is like comparing a Vette to a Ferarri.

Merc1138
05-09-2011, 7:23 PM
Buying the tools to put in the CNC machine to polish further than the tooling they're currently using, as well as the time to keep the parts in the machine to do it.

Tools = money. Time = money. Tools + time = more money.

Additionally, you have to consider the fit involved. You can't just polish the sear, install it, and then be done. It's polished, checked, polished, checked again.

Also, why would Ruger's 1911 put pressure on Kimber? Again, they're for different markets. If anything the Ruger 1911 would compete with some of the Springfield models(not all of them) and certainly nothing in the pricerange or featureset of most of Kimber's products.

Kia doesn't compete with Bentley.

Additionally, you're right that I'm saying a possible increase in sales due to not needing trigger jobs isn't necessarily in the interest of Ruger(or any other low to mid-end company for that matter). Why? The margin. It costs x amount of money to produce the product, which is sold to distributors for y amount of dollars, then sold to resellers for z amount of dollars, before the customer pays the final price. People need to make money at every step of the chain. If you increase production costs without increasing the cost of the goods, you lower your margin. Since it's apparently not obvious to you, Ruger competes in the higher volume lower margin portion of the spectrum, while Kimber competes for higher margin and lower sales volume(less people are willing to pay more).

The fact that you failed to understand why I mentioned watch companies further proves that you're severely lacking in knowledge about a lot of things this topic actually involves. With watches, people are pay a lot more for something stock, or they pay less for it stock and a small percentage of those buyers spend money afterwards to "improve" their product.

Since you don't seem to know what a trigger job actually is, I suggest you find some videos on youtube or something, and I'm not talking about the $15, 5 minute AR trigger jobs. Additionally, more than the sear face may be adjusted. Things such as a magazine disconnect, firing pin safety, or even main disconnector may need to be adjusted or removed. Plus with the case of the disconnector, you have to make sure that the thing will not slip and end up causing a burst fire situation(this has caused mass recalls in the past).

To say that a trigger job would make the final product cost more is definitely NOT a fallacy.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:32 PM
That's simply not true. The whole point is if a gun is well designed, if it is made of high quality materials with high quality manufacturing processes by trained personnel the quality of the finished product should not rely on what essentially amounts to an inspection/rework cycle until it meets that last person's expectations. IF a process renders a gun with burrs then it's not a quality process and that's the reason for what amounts to inspection/rework.

Further "trigger work" should be able to change but not improve trigger pull. I can see where Ruger would not want to ship guns with a 1-2 pound trigger. That concern drove Savage to invent to their Accutrigger. But to actually improve the trigger pull? My question would then be why isn't the production process replicating what the smith is doing?


Why? Assemblers are cheaper then real Gunsmiths who charge $80-100 an hour and are super meticulous. Some Gunsmiths take months to finish one gun from start to finish and have backlogs measured in years, you won't see these guys at an assembly booth.

Mute
05-09-2011, 7:36 PM
Some things can be delivered effectively in a mass produced manner some cannot. A "good" trigger is one of those things that requires a skilled laborer to work on it. The way most triggers are designed to function won't give the clean, light trigger that you'd expect off a quick assembly line or a CNC machine. This is the same with a number of other items.

Your suggestion that these things can be delivered in a final product at a low cost simply isn't true.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:41 PM
Like what? What corners do manufacturers cut that gunsmiths must fix?


One is the use of MIM parts from 3rd party vendors to save money over Forged, CNC'd, EDM'd Tool Steel parts etc...

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:47 PM
You're suggesting they don't care about a possible increase in sales because their guns no longer require "trigger jobs?"



Better to compare a Colt with a Kimber. For years we heard how people would buy 1911's from Colt and then send them "to the smith" but now that wasn't necessary with Kimbers -- that sell at an even lower price. Or compare Ruger to Kimber -- I suspect the SR1911 is going to put a huge amount of pressure on one or more Kimber guns. By the way, what exactly IS a "trigger job?"



What?



So you say. I love the example of a transaxle designed by Chrysler. They built it in Kokomo Indiana and Mitsubishi built them somewhere in Japan. During the start of production Chrysler was having all kinds of problems and Mitsubishi was not. Finally they inspected some units side by side. Even though the Chrysler unit met the design spec it looked visually rough compared to the Mitsubishi unit which looked jewel-like in comparison and produced at a lower cost. Mitsubishi's answer was that they continually strive to reduce variation in their production process and the result was very tight adherence to nominal design dimensions which resulted in lower costs.

In other words design a manufacturing process that leaves fewer or finer tool marks and if you can't, find a way to remove them using a secondary operation that costs next to nothing in a high volume manufacturing environment.



Covered.


The fallacy is that you equate whatever takes place during a "trigger job" to necessarily costing more for the manufacturer to complete. I don't think that's true. What exactly takes place? I know about the possible spring replacements and the "polishing." What else?


So because you're ignorant of what can go into a trigger job (What gun are we talking about?) you only think polishing is what is accomplished? WOW

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 7:49 PM
Buying the tools to put in the CNC machine to polish further than the tooling they're currently using, as well as the time to keep the parts in the machine to do it.

Tools = money. Time = money. Tools + time = more money.

Additionally, you have to consider the fit involved. You can't just polish the sear, install it, and then be done. It's polished, checked, polished, checked again.

Also, why would Ruger's 1911 put pressure on Kimber? Again, they're for different markets. If anything the Ruger 1911 would compete with some of the Springfield models(not all of them) and certainly nothing in the pricerange or featureset of most of Kimber's products.

Kia doesn't compete with Bentley.

Additionally, you're right that I'm saying a possible increase in sales due to not needing trigger jobs isn't necessarily in the interest of Ruger(or any other low to mid-end company for that matter). Why? The margin. It costs x amount of money to produce the product, which is sold to distributors for y amount of dollars, then sold to resellers for z amount of dollars, before the customer pays the final price. People need to make money at every step of the chain. If you increase production costs without increasing the cost of the goods, you lower your margin. Since it's apparently not obvious to you, Ruger competes in the higher volume lower margin portion of the spectrum, while Kimber competes for higher margin and lower sales volume(less people are willing to pay more).

The fact that you failed to understand why I mentioned watch companies further proves that you're severely lacking in knowledge about a lot of things this topic actually involves. With watches, people are pay a lot more for something stock, or they pay less for it stock and a small percentage of those buyers spend money afterwards to "improve" their product.

Since you don't seem to know what a trigger job actually is, I suggest you find some videos on youtube or something, and I'm not talking about the $15, 5 minute AR trigger jobs. Additionally, more than the sear face may be adjusted. Things such as a magazine disconnect, firing pin safety, or even main disconnector may need to be adjusted or removed. Plus with the case of the disconnector, you have to make sure that the thing will not slip and end up causing a burst fire situation(this has caused mass recalls in the past).

To say that a trigger job would make the final product cost more is definitely NOT a fallacy.


Exactly!

shooterdude
05-09-2011, 8:11 PM
So much fallacy in this thread.

Combat handguns were never designed to be precision target shooters and it will cost plenty to turn one into this. Most people use the term "tolerance" incorrectly. Tolerance is not how tightly 2 parts fit together but how close to design specs they can be produced. A Beretta 92 has a wiggly barrel but the tolerances are very tight on these guns.

Lets look at the Beretta 92FS and its variants. I have one so I can speak from experience. It is a very good gun. It does not offer any more than combat accuracy (which has no real definition but lets just say you could put a whole magazine in a 3" circle at 12 yards) which for its intended purpose will get the job done. My personal preference is a crisp trigger break and short reset so I let a gunsmith do a trigger job and put in a lighter mainspring and the Beretta target sights and improved the accuracy of the gun. It now makes me happier. Did it NEED this work, NO.

Now lets consider CZ's which I currently own 2. It is a wonderful combat pistol and the tool marks under the slide don't bother me at all as they do some people. The weight of an all steel gun makes shooting easy and the barrel lockup is very tight and these guns have excellent mechanical accuracy but I HATE the factory trigger. It is spongy and creepy and has a camming action at the break. I have had trigger jobs done on both and they have very crisp breaks and short resets. They group 1/2 as big as the Beretta 92 I own.

I hear people all over these forums whine about tool marks and mushy triggers while overlooking what is in my opinion more important which is the CZ is an excellent platform with lots of potential IF you have the inclination.

I have let people with $3000 1911's shoot my CZ SP-01 and they start crying when I tell them I only have $800 invested in the gun.

I love the question about why manufacturer's produce guns that need "smithing". In their opinion the gun serves its intended purpose as designed, the customer's opinion may differ.

BTW, the best factory trigger I have found so far other than $1000 Sig's and HK's is the FNP-9 . It is the first pistol I have purchased that doesn't need a trigger job...of course that is MY opinion :-)

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:20 PM
So because you're ignorant of what can go into a trigger job (What gun are we talking about?) you only think polishing is what is accomplished? WOW
I asked a question...

No one yet has been able to explain why triggers need to be "cleaned-up" by smiths and why they can't leave the factory in that condition.

The notion that a gun with a clean trigger MUST cost most than one without is ludicrous.

PrimerDust360
05-09-2011, 8:22 PM
I am sure a the majority of new firearms don't NEED a trip to the 'smith. The owner simply wants to feel he's made a mass-produced item personalized/improved. If he can't do it himself he can still feel like he has something better by paying someone else to change it. Sometimes it is compensation for bad technique, other times it could simply be cosmetic...

...Ego/showing off? Does a Dodge Viper only driven on public roads on weekends really need a trip to Hennessey? Why do women get breast implants? :D

Everyone has their own reasons, I suppose. While I am relatively new to guns I have been building and modifying my own cars, guitars and tube guitar amps for almost 2 decades now. I bought a Ruger 10/22 because they have the "Chevy 350" factor. Basically a Lego set for those of us who never grew up. I resisted the temptation to immediately spend 3x what the rifle is worth on custom parts, and have been focusing on shooting the thing. But I'll be damned if I didn't tear the thing completely apart, study every part of it and reassemble it the second I got it home.

The little 318 V8 in my Duster was more than adequate with a single exhaust and a 2 barrel carb. I bought the car when I was 15 for $900 and learned to drive in it. I am 34 and I am in the process of replacing that 318 with a 360 Magnum R/T motor I built myself. Was the car too slow? No. the 318 was fine for the 17 years it was my daily driver, just added dual exhaust, an RV cam and a 4 bbl. carb/Edelbrock performer intake. Still, I couldn't pass up that 360. But I didn't simply buy a crate motor (The same way I didn't buy a Volquartsen 10/22) from Mopar Performance. I got a junkyard motor from a Dakota R/T. It NEEDED a trip to the smith since I am not a machinist.

I still get asked from time to time why I didn't buy a 385 horsepower crate motor instead of building a 400+ horsepower motor myself. I handled the disassembly and reassembly, chose my own cam, pistons, intake, headers and carb. I spent a lot of money on specialty tools. For a some extra $ I have something that didn't come off a shelf or out of a shipping container. Something that will work with the 5 speed swap I have planned in the future. Something I have been personally involved in on most of the work. Also, I have a great relationship with my local V8 "blocksmith." :D

I have a small arsenal of guitars. My USA-made Gibson Explorer has a few basic bolt-on mods. It is a very nice guitar. Not custom shop but definitely not an instrument that needs basic help. When I first got it I sent it to a luthier to get the action and intonation set how I like. It was before I could do that myself. These days I do most of my own work on guitars and amps as well. I have a few guitars that like my Ruger, I have chosen to leave alone for the time being. I also have a beautiful Strat that needed all kinds of help. I handled the component selection and did a lot of the work myself, but there were things that it needed a trip to the smith for. It only sounds slightly better but tuning, string changes, the strap not falling off while I am playing? All worthwhile mods as far as I'm concerned. Even if I'm not Eddie Van Halen yet.

This is a hobby for some of us and a living for others. As long as we continue enjoying shooting guns, or modifying guns, or simply sharing the fun of shooting guns with the inexperienced and explaining why the 2nd Amendment needs to be protected, supporting small businesses, supporting USA manufacturing. Or just making something go "BANG!"...

Wait... What was the question again? :D

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 8:23 PM
You can't call it a fallacy when even i've experienced my M&P's slide on the low slide while my trigger bar is on the high side which mad it slightly rub while the slide moves.

And you can have a fantastic feeling, consistent trigger that changes the characteristics for the better while maintaining the same weight and not losing and reliability or durability.

Just because an individual does not feel the need for a trigger job, why crap a\on others? My Sig DAK had a mediocre but smooth trigger, my USP .40 had a junk trigger and the best trigger I've had from the factory was my old Les Baer TRS which was still improved by Harrison Customs.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:27 PM
So much fallacy in this thread.

Combat handguns were never designed to be precision target shooters and it will cost plenty to turn one into this. Most people use the term "tolerance" incorrectly. Tolerance is not how tightly 2 parts fit together but how close to (nominal) design specs they can must be produced. A Beretta 92 has a wiggly barrel but the tolerances are very tight on these guns.

Actually the design tolerances would be the allowable deviation away from nominal design dimensions. But you're absolutely right. People do misuse the word as you suggest.

Lets look at the Beretta 92FS and its variants. I have one so I can speak from experience. It is a very good gun. It does not offer any more than combat accuracy (which has no real definition but lets just say you could put a whole magazine in a 3" circle at 12 yards) which for its intended purpose will get the job done. My personal preference is a crisp trigger break and short reset so I let a gunsmith do a trigger job and put in a lighter mainspring and the Beretta target sights and improved the accuracy of the gun. It now makes me happier. Did it NEED this work, NO.

Now lets consider CZ's which I currently own 2. It is a wonderful combat pistol and the tool marks under the slide don't bother me at all as they do some people. The weight of an all steel gun makes shooting easy and the barrel lockup is very tight and these guns have excellent mechanical accuracy but I HATE the factory trigger. It is spongy and creepy and has a camming action at the break. I have had trigger jobs done on both and they have very crisp breaks and short resets. They group 1/2 as big as the Beretta 92 I own.

I hear people all over these forums whine about tool marks and mushy triggers while overlooking what is in my opinion more important which is the CZ is an excellent platform with lots of potential IF you have the inclination.

I have let people with $3000 1911's shoot my CZ SP-01 and they start crying when I tell them I only have $800 invested in the gun.

I love the question about why manufacturer's produce guns that need "smithing". In their opinion the gun serves its intended purpose as designed, the customer's opinion may differ.

BTW, the best factory trigger I have found so far other than $1000 Sig's and HK's is the FNP-9 . It is the first pistol I have purchased that doesn't need a trigger job...of course that is MY opinion :-)
What specifically is included with a "trigger job?" You raise a good point though. Perhaps trigger jobs lead to different (per the shooters' personal preferences) or perhaps "safer" operation in some peoples' belief (higher trigger pull) but not necessarily "better?"

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:29 PM
You can't call it a fallacy when even i've experienced my M&P's slide on the low slide while my trigger bar is on the high side which mad it slightly rub while the slide moves.

And you can have a fantastic feeling, consistent trigger that changes the characteristics for the better while maintaining the same weight and not losing and reliability or durability.

Just because an individual does not feel the need for a trigger job, why crap a\on others? My Sig DAK had a mediocre but smooth trigger, my USP .40 had a junk trigger and the best trigger I've had from the factory was my old Les Baer TRS which was still improved by Harrison Customs.
I just wonder why factories don't ship guns that already have trigger jobs if it makes them inherently better guns? The added cost idea is nonsense.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 8:32 PM
I asked a question...

No one yet has been able to explain why triggers need to be "cleaned-up" by smiths and why they can't leave the factory in that condition.

The notion that a gun with a clean trigger MUST cost most than one without is ludicrous.


Why do some people want their triggers to be cleaned up? Because some are gritty from the factory. Why doesn't the manufacturer clean it up? Because that increases cost and labor. I wouldn't want it done from S&W for example anyways which would drive up the price for something that I'd have replaced anyways with something better. When you're producing 100's of thousand items at a $500 price point, you're not going to add unneeded labor for the small percentage of people who don't like what comes as is.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 8:36 PM
I just wonder why factories don't ship guns that already have trigger jobs if it makes them inherently better guns? The added cost idea is nonsense.


There are people on this forum who are content with $100 Hi-Point handguns and may not want to pay another 25-50% additional for a better trigger. You refuse to understand it so just leave it at that :rolleyes:


I will also repeat that Master Gunsmith work ranges from $80-100 or more, only a small percentage of people want that kid of work.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:38 PM
Even though this is a long arm example I will use it here. I had long wondered why "doubles rifles" are so hideously expensive? There are a lot of valid reasons -- very limited market and low production, the fact that each gun constitutes a great deal of hardware, etc. But the one excuse I would never buy is that "barrels had to be regulated by hand, primarily by a hit and miss method." That never made any sense to me. I could not see why barrel sets could not be regulated (for a given load/projectile) through design and manufacturing? Now they are by some makers makers.

That was an example of where things just had to be expensive due to "hand work" and there was no substitute. Someone finally began measuring during the "regulation phase" on a number of guns and determined the critical dimensions to regulate a barrel, how things changed as the dimensions changed and what sort of tolerance are acceptable.

Too bad all doubles rifles (as far as I know) are still quite expensive.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:43 PM
Why do some people want their triggers to be cleaned up? Because some are gritty from the factory. Why doesn't the manufacturer clean it up? Because that increases cost and labor. I wouldn't want it done from S&W for example anyways which would drive up the price for something that I'd have replaced anyways with something better. When you're producing 100's of thousand items at a $500 price point, you're not going to add unneeded labor for the small percentage of people who don't like what comes as is.
No sir, that's not right...

If only SOME are "gritty" from the factory and some are not then variation somewhere in the process is allowing that. Reducing/eliminating that variation need not cost anything -- particularly once the manufacturer and gun in question begins to sell more because they're not shipping any guns with gritty triggers.

What are you going to replace with something better? The trigger? :confused:

You don't know that it would take additional resources to get rid of the gritty feeling. After all you said they are already shipping some without the gritty feel...

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 8:44 PM
How about you go over here and ask them the silly questions which you have a hard time beleiving the answers provided here:
http://www.louderthanwords.us/

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:45 PM
There are people on this forum who are content with $100 Hi-Point handguns and may not want to pay another 25-50% additional for a better trigger. You refuse to understand it so just leave it at that :rolleyes:


I will also repeat that Master Gunsmith work ranges from $80-100 or more, only a small percentage of people want that kid of work.

I would suggest that a "master gunsmith" can't do anything that any manufacturer can do within the confines of what we are talking about.

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 8:48 PM
How about you go over here and ask them the silly questions which you have a hard time beleiving the answers provided here:
http://www.louderthanwords.us/
Just because I rejected what you said does not mean I have rejected all answers. Some make a lot of sense -- people wanting to change accessories on their guns. Some people needing to have their runs repaired. Some wanting something DIFFERENT yet not necessarily superior to the factory offering.

But the notion that guns ship and then need to essentially be QAed by smiths is indeed difficult to understand.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 8:55 PM
No sir, that's not right...

If only SOME are "gritty" from the factory and some are not then variation somewhere in the process is allowing that. Reducing/eliminating that variation need not cost anything -- particularly once the manufacturer and gun in question begins to sell more because they're not shipping any guns with gritty triggers.

What are you going to replace with something better? The trigger? :confused:

You don't know that it would take additional resources to get rid of the gritty feeling. After all you said they are already shipping some without the gritty feel...


Why are you telling me that I'm wrong in my experiences? :rolleyes: The factory parts (In my case sear, trigger bar, striker block, sear block) are not polished by the factory and were gritty... End of story.

What did I replace it with? A reprofiled EDM'd sear that reduced overtravel and gave it a crisper break that was also polished, my trigger bar was clearanced and polished, my striker block was reprofiled and polished (or Hard Chromed), springs were also changed for this system that kept the weight around 5 1/2 pounds (Factory was about 6) but is much smoother in the pretravel, less overtravel, crisper on the break, shorter and more distinct on the reset and much easier to shoot accurately. It's a world of difference and worth it to me and the factory can't duplicate it for customers right now.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 8:59 PM
I would suggest that a "master gunsmith" can't do anything that any manufacturer can do within the confines of what we are talking about.


But they do not, what's the debate? Can do and actually do are two seperate things. Auto manufacturers can make all electric cars right now, but a select few do.

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 9:03 PM
Just because I rejected what you said does not mean I have rejected all answers. Some make a lot of sense -- people wanting to change accessories on their guns. Some people needing to have their runs repaired. Some wanting something DIFFERENT yet not necessarily superior to the factory offering.

But the notion that guns ship and then need to essentially be QAed by smiths is indeed difficult to understand.


Welcome to the real world...

Excelsior
05-09-2011, 9:05 PM
Welcome to the real world...
You mean welcome to urban legend...

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 9:05 PM
The bottom line is that almost any production handgun can be improved by a qualified gunsmith or an aftermarket part, some are sceptics while some are better informed.

M. D. Van Norman
05-09-2011, 9:10 PM
Deburring and polishing can be very cheap to do in “mass production” so why doesn’t Ruger do it…?

“Very cheap” would probably be an additional $50 to $100 per unit.

However, to answer the original question, most new guns don’t need a trip to the smith. The vast majority of consumers will be satisfied that their guns go bang during their infrequent trips to the range … and even more satisfied if they can stay on paper at three yards. In any case, they won’t be posting about it on Calguns. ;)

For what it’s worth, I judge all of my own custom work against my (mostly) stock SIG-Sauer P220. :cool:

Shenaniguns
05-09-2011, 9:15 PM
You mean welcome to urban legend...


Like I said, you can't prove my experience wrong. Here's a perfect example where some people experienced 'sear flutter' i.e. a dead trigger from the sear not resetting, well S&W upgraded their current models with a large plunger used for the MA models yet many older models are left for chance. Some chose to send the whole gun to S&W 'after the fact' while others shipped just the sear block to Apex Tactical which was drilled and retrofitted. I'm in the latter which fixed a potential problem 'before' it can happen since S&W will not fix it until after it occurs.
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=27922&hl=apex+sear+block


Urban Legend that :cool:

Cokebottle
05-09-2011, 9:15 PM
You mean welcome to urban legend...
You asked a question, you got the answer, and you now argue with the answer.

If you had the answer all along, then why ask the question?

You are trolling.

shooterdude
05-09-2011, 9:18 PM
What specifically is included with a "trigger job?" You raise a good point though. Perhaps trigger jobs lead to different (per the shooters' personal preferences) or perhaps "safer" operation in some peoples' belief (higher trigger pull) but not necessarily "better?"

That depends on the gun. Generally it is a polishing of the sear and hammer engagement surfaces to make the trigger lighter by reducing friction. It can also mean a reshaping of those same parts to change the point in the trigger's travel where it actually breaks. Other parts can be smoothed/reshaped as well such as the disconnector, trigger connector bar, removal of firing pin block, etc.

Each gun is different and requires different work to be accomplished depending upon the desired end result (less take-up, break point, reset, let off)

IMHO, any gun is more accurate for the shooter if the break is very crisp so that it "surprises" you when it fires and you don't anticipate the shot thus jerking or flinching the gun off target.

Merc1138
05-09-2011, 9:22 PM
What specifically is included with a "trigger job?" You raise a good point though. Perhaps trigger jobs lead to different (per the shooters' personal preferences) or perhaps "safer" operation in some peoples' belief (higher trigger pull) but not necessarily "better?"

Your question has been answered multiple times already. You have either
a: Not bothered to read anything
b: Haven't bothered to research anything
c: are a troll
d: all of the above

Asking the question without knowing the answer is one thing. But you've been given the answers and keep asking the question and wanting to argue with anyone who has given you any sort of answer. People like you are why some folk get sick of trying to help people with legitimate queries on this forum.

nagorb
05-09-2011, 10:49 PM
But they do not, what's the debate? Can do and actually do are two seperate things. Auto manufacturers can make all electric cars right now, but a select few do.

This^

G-forceJunkie
05-09-2011, 10:53 PM
Stop feeding the troll guys, he doesnt want the truth.

nagorb
05-09-2011, 11:04 PM
Stop feeding the troll guys, he doesnt want the truth.

Good advice:)

Edit: not to mention he still hasn't rebuked your explanation.

Bullwinkle
05-09-2011, 11:09 PM
You asked a question, you got the answer, and you now argue with the answer.

If you had the answer all along, then why ask the question?

You are trolling.+1

Mass production = produced for the masses, the "average" consumer, not the individual, with a sufficient profit margin per unit.

Cyc Wid It
05-09-2011, 11:13 PM
Why can't I just start mass producing CT Brian full house customs completely automatically and for the cost of an RIA?? And why do they take more than a couple hours to make??

Why doesn't Citizen make Patek Philippes? Why doesn't band-aid make artificial hearts?

If all you need is for your gun to go bang, why are you even asking these questions?

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 2:24 AM
The bottom line is that almost any production handgun can be improved by a qualified gunsmith or an aftermarket part, some are sceptics while some are better informed.
So you say. I believe they can be CHANGED but not necessarily "improved."

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 2:28 AM
That depends on the gun. Generally it is a polishing of the sear and hammer engagement surfaces to make the trigger lighter by reducing friction. It can also mean a reshaping of those same parts to change the point in the trigger's travel where it actually breaks. Other parts can be smoothed/reshaped as well such as the disconnector, trigger connector bar, removal of firing pin block, etc.

Each gun is different and requires different work to be accomplished depending upon the desired end result (less take-up, break point, reset, let off)

IMHO, any gun is more accurate for the shooter if the break is very crisp so that it "surprises" you when it fires and you don't anticipate the shot thus jerking or flinching the gun off target.
Well, I very much appreciate the answer, I really do and it's VERY thought provoking.

Why can't the polishing part take place in the factory? I don't buy the "$$$" argument. I am also fascinated those gunsmiths that are playing design engineer by "...reshaping of those same parts..." That's actually quite scary in many ways.

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 2:35 AM
+1

Mass production = produced for the masses, the "average" consumer, not the individual, with a sufficient profit margin per unit.

You're factually wrong with your definition...

People used to have that mindset when it came to vehicles. Defects/shortcomings would be dealt with by the dealer and their customers. "Mass production" equates to neither low product quality or ever "average" product quality.

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 2:38 AM
Why can't I just start mass producing CT Brian full house customs completely automatically and for the cost of an RIA?? And why do they take more than a couple hours to make??

Why doesn't Citizen make Patek Philippes? Why doesn't band-aid make artificial hearts?

If all you need is for your gun to go bang, why are you even asking these questions?
You need to learn how to think. I'm asking a question that would be analogous to:

Why does the buyer of a Citizen or a Patek feel they have to send it to the watchmaker for a spring job before using it?

Why does the purchaser of Band-aids or an artificial heart feel they need to send either product to some lab for a tune-up before using it?

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 2:45 AM
“Very cheap” would probably be an additional $50 to $100 per unit.

However, to answer the original question, most new guns don’t need a trip to the smith. The vast majority of consumers will be satisfied that their guns go bang during their infrequent trips to the range … and even more satisfied if they can stay on paper at three yards. In any case, they won’t be posting about it on Calguns. ;)

For what it’s worth, I judge all of my own custom work against my (mostly) stock SIG-Sauer P220. :cool:
Where did you get that number from? I don't know very much about guns but I know a great deal about cutting and finishing metal and it wouldn't cost $50 to 100.00 per gun. That's absurd. Most of the deburring and polishing would be done through vibratory, chemical or other means and not some guy sitting at a bench with a deburring knife, some stones and a tube of Flitz.

So now you are suggesting it takes a trip to the smith in order to "stay on paper at three yards?" Sheeeesh.

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 2:51 AM
You asked a question, you got the answer, and you now argue with the answer.

If you had the answer all along, then why ask the question?

You are trolling.

I am not trolling. I have received some excellent inputs that have really made me think. I have also received some canned junk that added no value whatsoever.

PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE
05-10-2011, 4:12 AM
To the op, I was with you through most of this discussion, I also felt nobody really answered the question satisfactorily. I was waiting for some of the more seasoned members to chime in, however I believe your question has been adequately answered, and as some others have suggested, you're just not reading and comprehending the answers. You may have to piece together several responses to fully understand, but it's all in front of you.

Not to mention, you keep asking why does a new gun have to go to a smith, well it doesn't "have to" unless the individual owner wants it to. End of story.

I suppose when you begin to master the art of shooting, perhaps do some comps, then and only then will you realize your new perfectly working gun can be improved upon by a master gunsmith.

Please close this thread :beatdeadhorse5:

Voo
05-10-2011, 5:05 AM
Manufacturers look at the bottom line I would imagine. Whether or not they ship "quality" is a subjective measure. But from an economic standpoint, every additional bit of labor they include into making something more 'refined', is going to cost add to their cost. From that, I find it completely plausible that some manufacturers view the cost/benefit (whatever you want to call it) ratio and say, "we can make it cheaper by skipping this step" and make more money.

Even when people's lives are going to be on the line, gun companies are ultimately in it to make a buck, nobody runs a company without profit.

I do believe every manufacturer out there is capable of producing quality, but the notion that the percentage is 100% is facetious at best. I just don't have that much faith in anyone's craftsmanship.

If you look at how they manufacture computer chips, its' very unlike what you're saying about "strict" manufacturing and quality. I've been on a personal tour of an INTEL manufacturing plant and while hardware is not my specialty, he'd thought I'd enjoy the tour. What most people don't realize is that the 'speed' rating most chips are assigned is not out of design, but out of actual threshold testing. What this means is that a test is given to each chip and based on how it actually performs under a certain set of conditions, only then is it given a "speed". Out of that wafer, very few chips make it to 100%. What you have is a performance "curve". After testing chips will range 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% from what was actually intended. Believe me, INTEL would love to have every chip perform at 100% but that's not how it works.

You state that manufactures are capable of producing top notch stuff if they want. In terms of firearms, I would think it's far more obtainable than with a CPU chip. But the reality is that everything has a cost and if you're adding labor to it, even if it's small, multiplied by a very large number, then those costs can become significant. Think of the converse. You save a penny, but you're multiplying it by millions/billions, that penny becomes significant.

shooterdude
05-10-2011, 7:00 AM
That depends on the gun. Generally it is a polishing of the sear and hammer engagement surfaces to make the trigger lighter by reducing friction. It can also mean a reshaping of those same parts to change the point in the trigger's travel where it actually breaks. Other parts can be smoothed/reshaped as well such as the disconnector, trigger connector bar, removal of firing pin block, etc.

Each gun is different and requires different work to be accomplished depending upon the desired end result (less take-up, break point, reset, let off)

IMHO, any gun is more accurate for the shooter if the break is very crisp so that it "surprises" you when it fires and you don't anticipate the shot thus jerking or flinching the gun off target.

Well, I very much appreciate the answer, I really do and it's VERY thought provoking.

Why can't the polishing part take place in the factory? It can but gun makers need to hit a certain manufacturing cost and most gun buyers won't tolerate the higher price for the benefits of a feature they don't understand. I don't buy the "$$$" argument. That's just you and your preference. I am also fascinated those gunsmiths that are playing design engineer by "...reshaping of those same parts..." That's actually quite scary in many ways. You are showing some ignorance here. This type of work is typically NOT recommended for certain applications of the gun and is usually done for target guns or competition guns.

I agree with everyone else's assessment that the questions you originally raised have been more than adequately addressed. Your failure to comprehend or agree with the realities of the industry doesn't mean you have a valid point.

Many gun makers offer custom versions of their guns such as CZ and Springfield. These are, of course, priced accordingly.

Bullwinkle
05-10-2011, 7:19 AM
You're factually wrong with your definition...

"Mass production" equates to neither low product quality or ever "average" product quality.

And here's the proof that you're not listening to (or comprehending?) people's answers. I did not say mass production produced inferior or average products; I said the products were produced for the average consumer (ETA: where "average consumer" is the average of the target market for which the product is intended). Those are words you're putting into my mouth.

Goodbye.

Mute
05-10-2011, 9:31 AM
Well, I very much appreciate the answer, I really do and it's VERY thought provoking.

Why can't the polishing part take place in the factory? It can. But it won't be at the same price as you see same gun without the polishing.I don't buy the "$$$" argument. Just because you don't buy it, doesn't mean it's not true. I am also fascinated those gunsmiths that are playing design engineer by "...reshaping of those same parts..." That's actually quite scary in many ways. This shows your complete ignorance of the difference between a good trigger pull and a factory trigger pull.

The manufacturer has to first deliver a reliable, dependable trigger that won't get them sued. That's not hard. However, to get the clean trigger pull, it can't be done by someone unskilled. You don't believe me? Just look at all the people who've decided to work on their own triggers and have ruined them. Gunsmiths are playing engineer, they're simply taking that reliable and dependable part and making it perform beyond what it was originally designed to do without compromising the reliability and dependability.

Now, there are drop in triggers that are better than the factory trigger, but guess what, those are more expensive and are still not as good as triggers done by an experienced gunsmith. The reason you don't have great AND cheap triggers is because no one has yet made a machine that can produce one. That is, both great AND cheap. If you have a real live person do it, guess what, they expect to be paid. You make it sound like manufacturers don't want an edge over the competition. Since you think that it is possible why don't you go ahead and explain how it will be done?

mugiwara
05-10-2011, 10:29 AM
why isnt there world peace? there should be, so why isnt it so?

IPSICK
05-10-2011, 11:44 AM
Please close this thread :beatdeadhorse5: Please close this thread :beatdeadhorse5: Please close this thread :beatdeadhorse5: Please close this thread :beatdeadhorse5: Please close this thread :beatdeadhorse5:

How did this go on so long? I feel like crap bumping this thread with this comment.

Post #25 below was an adequate and concise enough answer.

Because most production pistols have to balance cost, a reasonable amount of tolerances that you can grab parts out of a bin and have it fit a 1,000 other handguns. With a smith, they can produce superior parts with tolerances made for your specific handgun not 100 others. Say an acceptable clearance from a manufacturer is .05-.15 for some critical parts and you're on the extreme end with one part while another is on the other extreme end... It may function fine according to the manufacturers specs but it may be an area that could be optimized for function and reliability.

Excelsior
05-10-2011, 1:19 PM
The manufacturer has to first deliver a reliable, dependable trigger that won't get them sued. That's not hard. However, to get the clean trigger pull, it can't be done by someone unskilled. You don't believe me? Just look at all the people who've decided to work on their own triggers and have ruined them. Gunsmiths are playing engineer, they're simply taking that reliable and dependable part and making it perform beyond what it was originally designed to do without compromising the reliability and dependability.

Actually I think it's quite "hard." As I said in a very early posting I can see why a manufacturer wouldn't ship a gun with a light trigger. That concern caused Savage to develop the Accutrigger.

Now, there are drop in triggers that are better than the factory trigger, but guess what, those are more expensive and are still not as good as triggers done by an experienced gunsmith. The reason you don't have great AND cheap triggers is because no one has yet made a machine that can produce one. That is, both great AND cheap. If you have a real live person do it, guess what, they expect to be paid. You make it sound like manufacturers don't want an edge over the competition. Since you think that it is possible why don't you go ahead and explain how it will be done?

I just reject your notion that a "great trigger" requires all sort of handwork or that they necessarily be expensive.

Mute
05-10-2011, 1:28 PM
Actually I think it's quite "hard." As I said in a very early posting I can see why a manufacturer wouldn't ship a gun with a light trigger. That concern caused Savage to develop the Accutrigger.



I just reject your notion that a "great trigger" requires all sort of handwork or that they necessarily be expensive.

That's your prerogative, but unless you can prove otherwise, you're simply wrong.

Shenaniguns
05-10-2011, 1:36 PM
Actually I think it's quite "hard." As I said in a very early posting I can see why a manufacturer wouldn't ship a gun with a light trigger. That concern caused Savage to develop the Accutrigger.



I just reject your notion that a "great trigger" requires all sort of handwork or that they necessarily be expensive.



You have a hard time comprehending that a tuned or worked over trigger does not go hand in hand with being light, but i explained that previously :rolleyes:

Merc1138
05-10-2011, 1:36 PM
Actually I think it's quite "hard." As I said in a very early posting I can see why a manufacturer wouldn't ship a gun with a light trigger. That concern caused Savage to develop the Accutrigger.



I just reject your notion that a "great trigger" requires all sort of handwork or that they necessarily be expensive.

Except you still don't seem to get it through your head that a trigger job is not simply polishing a couple surfaces and swapping a spring.

For example, a trigger job on a ruger mkIII can involve swapping the bushing for one from a mkII. The point is to allow the magazines to drop free, but what is it changing? The magazine disconnect. You know, that magazine disconnect that CA requires new pistols to be sold in this state to have. Again there's also the issue of reliably being able to lower the weight of a trigger pull(if that's the intended outcome of the work) without creating a situation where you can just hold the trigger down and have the gun fire in a burst.

Additionally, you can't even seem to articulate what a "great trigger" is, which is odd anyway since a "great trigger" can vary drastically from person to person(this goes back to the whole mass production vs. personalization issue). Heck, I didn't even go into things like changing creep and over-travel which are entirely personal preference issues(and may require changing parts or adding set screws to parts that didn't originally come with them, which contrary to your ignorant belief takes time and costs money).

But this has already been explained to you, multiple times now. You're just refusing to accept the given answers and continuing to argue because people here have shown that you apparently have no idea what in the hell you're attempting to talk about.

You also seem to think that parts can just fall out of a CNC machine fully polished with a perfectly matched fit and no change whatsoever with the coatings and heat treatment already applied. It doesn't work that way.

You are trolling. That makes you a troll.

Killawhale415
05-10-2011, 1:43 PM
Lol what a terrible thread
Guns arent made outta legos dude

Lead Waster
05-10-2011, 1:47 PM
It's like a suit you buy at Macy's. They make a lot of them, but to get one to fit you right, you have to have a tailor fit it to you.

nagorb
05-10-2011, 2:03 PM
You have a hard time comprehending that a tuned or worked over trigger does not go hand in hand with being light, but i explained that previously :rolleyes:

He knows nothing about firearms. Just a troll.

pTa
05-10-2011, 2:38 PM
Most new handguns will benefit the same from you putting 1000 roinds downrange as a trip to a gunsmith/
It boils down to personal preference/

maybe you understand it this way/ your average consumer will be fine with just about any performance product out of the box/ however if you take your gsxr to daytona for the supervbike race without spares and a mechanic are you going to have the same advantage as a factory team?

My dad and uncle take EVERY gun they own to a gunsmith when they first get it/ I don't but then again they outshoot a great deal of their friends/ sideby side Ive shot my p6 and my dads and you can feelbthe difference between these two near identical pistols/ do i hate mine? No/ but i can tell his has been sorted out

IPSICK
05-10-2011, 3:23 PM
Now I can see how the other thread he's in on the rimfire forum has gone to pot.

Freq18Hz
05-10-2011, 3:43 PM
It's a piece of machinery. The world is an imperfect place. If your breaks squeek, your car will still drive...but folks will tell you to take it to a mechanic.

It's a thing you hold in your hand, that creates a controlled explosion which fires projectiles at or near the speed of sound.

You can't really be too careful with this sort of thing.

-Freq

toby
05-10-2011, 3:51 PM
Excelsior!.......:chillpill: you already pulled this crap in the rim fire section.

M. D. Van Norman
05-10-2011, 4:13 PM
Most of the deburring and polishing would be done through vibratory, chemical or other means and not some guy sitting at a bench with a deburring knife, some stones and a tube of Flitz.

Can this process maintain the proper engagement angles on a hammer and sear? I will assume that it can with the proper equipment and setup—additional equipment that has to be amortized and additional setup/labor time that has to be paid.

Such parts still seem to run $150 to $200 at retail.