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natedogg1777
11-29-2006, 10:46 AM
I've got an OLL AR in 5.56, and 40 acres of property in the foothills...what kind of permanent steel target would any of you guys recommend that I don't have to worry about shooting straight through with a 55gr. FMJ? Thanks!
Nate

cornholio1
11-29-2006, 10:53 AM
Wouldn't take much to stop that round. At 50 yards, even my high velocitys won't penetrate 4" thick unreinforced concrete. The 7.62x39 however blew right through that thing.

Sydwaiz
11-29-2006, 10:55 AM
AR500 (abrasion resistant-500 brinnell) I'd go with atleast 3/8" to give it some weight.

eta: This advice will only cost you some range time for me! ;)

JOEKILLA
11-29-2006, 11:02 AM
I've got an OLL AR in 5.56, and 40 acres of property in the foothills...


Do I hear an OLL shoot party :D

ocabj
11-29-2006, 11:08 AM
http://www.lvsteeltargets.com

Lots of people underestimate what kind of steel they need for a target. At IFG, we have a couple hanging steel targets at 200 and they get beat up a lot. Stuff doesn't go through it, but the thing is, the full force of each and every round is transferred to that target. What ends up happening is that the hanger bar or whatever is used to hang the target will break. After that, the steel itself begins to either bend, warp, or pit. It's like taking a sledgehammer and constantly hammering a piece of steel.

cornholio1
11-29-2006, 11:28 AM
http://www.lvsteeltargets.com

Lots of people underestimate what kind of steel they need for a target. At IFG, we have a couple hanging steel targets at 200 and they get beat up a lot. Stuff doesn't go through it, but the thing is, the full force of each and every round is transferred to that target. What ends up happening is that the hanger bar or whatever is used to hang the target will break. After that, the steel itself begins to either bend, warp, or pit. It's like taking a sledgehammer and constantly hammering a piece of steel.


The one they had up last weekend had holes in it.

Scarecrow Repair
11-29-2006, 12:47 PM
http://www.lvsteeltargets.com

Lots of people underestimate what kind of steel they need for a target.
Field several miles from my house where all the locals go is about 450 feet deep to the mouth of a little canyon where hang a well shot scuba tank and a couple of pieces of railroad iron, tie plates or something heavier. Big heavy stuff, all full of holes. Makes a nice ping when you hit it, sways and moves around, but I've often wondered how many shots go thru without registering.

From my deck is a gully with clear ranges up to about 350 feet. A friend who welds a lot is thinking of making some spinner targets out of good thick metal in the hopes that the energy might go into spinning instead of deforming. But he has a 7.7 Arisaka which would probably mess them up anyway.

JPglee1
11-29-2006, 1:14 PM
I've got an OLL AR in 5.56, and 40 acres of property in the foothills...what kind of permanent steel target would any of you guys recommend that I don't have to worry about shooting straight through with a 55gr. FMJ? Thanks!
Nate


1/2" or thicker mild steel will be adequate for FAR distances. Up to 100yds, even 3/4" mild steel will get dimples and pits and get ate away at with a 556 (223)...

I would go as thick as you can.

Last time I went shooting with Big Jon, he had a flywheel from a diesel truck, as a hanging gong clanger. This sucker was over 1.25" thick and VERY hard steel. .308 FMJ would dent it a little but the SS109-spec .223 would actually go thru it. I'm not joking. I'll take pictures next time I go up there. The little 223s leave an entry crater and zip right on thru, leaving a small exit hole. Made me really think about the .223 vs .308 issue regarding cover/concealment :eek:

Ive got some .308 AP, I wanna try shooting the flywheel with .308 AP and see how it fares.

JP

SemiAutoSam
11-29-2006, 1:24 PM
I use some nice 3/4" Armor plate that I bought from a scrap yard for like 4 bucks each they are about 12 inches in diameter. I just welded a loop onto them and they swing on a frame that looks like a swing set framework but about 1/4 the size.

They make a tink sound when hit from about 200 yards away.

WeThePeople
11-29-2006, 2:35 PM
Steel target manufacturers recommend a 100 yard minimum distance when shooting .223 & .308 ball ammo at AR 500 steel. Don't shoot SG slugs at the target. 10 to 15 yard distances are usually okay for pistol rounds.

Frangible .223 rounds at 25 yards are somewhat okay. Ammoman sells the Federal brand. Frangible .308 rounds will leave marks if closer than 25 yards.

Once the steel target has marks on it, then expect more "splash-back". All pistol, rifle, and SG rounds can sometimes come back at you. Never shoot steel without great eye protection on.

Steel targets should be almost vertical, with the bottom part of the target farthest from you. This allows the round to hit the dirt after impact. A great target will allow a little bit of flex when hit to absorb some of the energy before directing the round downwards.

Be careful of ricochets when shooting from the side of the target.

Steel ammo can cause sparks and fires.

Some steel target vendors are: saluteproducts, speedwelltargets, portatarget, themetalman, mgmtargets (great company...read their FAQ page), and tombstonetactical.

Have fun. Range nazi out.

Aluisious
11-29-2006, 2:41 PM
1/2" or thicker mild steel will be adequate for FAR distances. Up to 100yds, even 3/4" mild steel will get dimples and pits and get ate away at with a 556 (223)...

I would go as thick as you can.

Last time I went shooting with Big Jon, he had a flywheel from a diesel truck, as a hanging gong clanger. This sucker was over 1.25" thick and VERY hard steel. .308 FMJ would dent it a little but the SS109-spec .223 would actually go thru it. I'm not joking. I'll take pictures next time I go up there. The little 223s leave an entry crater and zip right on thru, leaving a small exit hole. Made me really think about the .223 vs .308 issue regarding cover/concealment :eek:

Ive got some .308 AP, I wanna try shooting the flywheel with .308 AP and see how it fares.

JP
.308 AP will clearly outperform .223 AP

Some people want to compare .223 AP and .308 FMJ...apples and oranges.

Aluisious
11-29-2006, 2:44 PM
I read once about some kind of cube someone made, that basically allowed bullets to travel through it then closed up again, like pins in a pin cushion. The little cube bounced around when you shot it. That would make a fun rifle target...if I didn't live in a downtown apartment.

kilword
11-29-2006, 2:46 PM
40 acres? i want to play :(

WeThePeople
11-29-2006, 2:57 PM
I read once about some kind of cube someone made, that basically allowed bullets to travel through it then closed up again, like pins in a pin cushion. The little cube bounced around when you shot it. That would make a fun rifle target...if I didn't live in a downtown apartment.

Are you talking about this? www.justshootmeproducts.com

RANGER295
11-29-2006, 3:40 PM
1/2" or thicker mild steel will be adequate for FAR distances. Up to 100yds, even 3/4" mild steel will get dimples and pits and get ate away at with a 556 (223)...

I would go as thick as you can.

Last time I went shooting with Big Jon, he had a flywheel from a diesel truck, as a hanging gong clanger. This sucker was over 1.25" thick and VERY hard steel. .308 FMJ would dent it a little but the SS109-spec .223 would actually go thru it. I'm not joking. I'll take pictures next time I go up there. The little 223s leave an entry crater and zip right on thru, leaving a small exit hole. Made me really think about the .223 vs .308 issue regarding cover/concealment :eek:

Ive got some .308 AP, I wanna try shooting the flywheel with .308 AP and see how it fares.

JP
This is inch steel. We were shooting at it from 100 to 125 yards. The big splashes are 8mm and .30-06 FMJ. The ones that go through are .30-06 AP that actually went through a 2 inch thick safe door made of hardend security steel. The medium sized splashes are .308 FMJ and the deep but narrow ones are .223 FMJ. There are a couple of .308 soft point on there too that barely dimpled it. Just a picture as a point of reference.
http://i16.tinypic.com/44v41t2.jpg

the_lynch_family
11-29-2006, 6:21 PM
I would purchase a AR500 plate. I picked up a 15x15 inch plate. I believe this piece will out live me for sure. We have fired 308 nato,5.56 ss109 , 30-06 .
308 and 30-06 didnt even mark it. The ss109 put some very small nicks. About half size of a dime.These shots were from about 250 yards or so. If you want a plate that will last a life time go with the AR500. I am waiting for a full size silhouette right now. That will be nice to shoot at 400-500 yards away.And the gong sound you get is just awsome.

Oh, And that stand is no longer with us. Thanks to Bigmacs tannernite. We taped 3 containers to it. Shot it and it blew my frame apart,,LOL . Was fricken awsome!!!!!

Any welders out there. I need a new stand.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/the_lynch_family/DSCF2815.jpg

zrunr
11-29-2006, 6:34 PM
Why destroy a good stand like this?

RANGER295
11-29-2006, 6:40 PM
Any welders out there. I need a new stand.
Where are you located?

the_lynch_family
11-29-2006, 6:46 PM
Bay area

Where are you located?

cornholio1
11-29-2006, 7:23 PM
I would purchase a AR500 plate. I picked up a 15x15 inch plate. I believe this piece will out live me for sure. We have fired 308 nato,5.56 ss109 , 30-06 .
308 and 30-06 didnt even mark it. The ss109 put some very small nicks. About half size of a dime.These shots were from about 250 yards or so. If you want a plate that will last a life time go with the AR500. I am waiting for a full size silhouette right now. That will be nice to shoot at 400-500 yards away.And the gong sound you get is just awsome.

Oh, And that stand is no longer with us. Thanks to Bigmacs tannernite. We taped 3 containers to it. Shot it and it blew my frame apart,,LOL . Was fricken awsome!!!!!

Any welders out there. I need a new stand.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/the_lynch_family/DSCF2815.jpg

How much was the plate?

uglygun
11-29-2006, 9:06 PM
The ones that go through are .30-06 AP that actually went through a 2 inch thick safe door made of hardend security steel.


I have a relatively hard time buying that.

Reason being, I have a 1 1/4 inch steel plate that is 12x12 and only 2 loads have managed to pierce it. One being a 300WinMag load using 163grn M2 AP bullets(roughly 3200fps as opposed to 30-06 at 2800fps), 3rd load over starting managed to put one round out of 5 through the plate at roughly 80-100 yards. Other load being my 50BMG using M2 700grn AP, only 4 rounds out of roughly 40 shots have completely penetrated it at 150-200 yards.

My plate is relatively mild steel too, with 5.56 M193 making typical 3/16 inch wide/deep divots in the steel.


2 inches of steel is a LOT of steel, if a M2 30-06 round is making it through it then I would be very suspect of what kind of steel it is and definitely suspect it of being mild or some kind of sandwhiched steel.


the back side of my plate looks much like this, many of the 50BMG M2 projectiles become stuck in the plate at some partially penetrated depth. To try and help get the projectiles through I've tried to get it as rigidly mounted or supported when out shooting using it as a gong.

http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/50sbigger/50backside.jpg



I've also tried 150grn M61AP projos from the 300WinMag, those projectiles are relative junk. Starting load at 3300ish fps couldn't even manage to bump the back side of the plate, something the M2 AP projos managed on the starting load. The M61 projectiles were failing due to their cores being a more mild steel, they were fusing and deforming on impact. Where as M2 projectiles remain sharp(I've got a 50BMG M2 core here on my desk from it being shot at a huge boulder only 200 or so yards away, the darn core is still sharp after surviving impact with ROCK! it was deflected back down to the ground and found laying about 2 feet from the front of it)

Scarecrow Repair
11-29-2006, 9:33 PM
2 inches of steel is a LOT of steel, if a M2 30-06 round is making it through it then I would be very suspect of what kind of steel it is and definitely suspect it of being mild or some kind of sandwhiched steel.

Most safes have drywall or something else between thick sheet metal to disintegrate and sacrifice itself under heat. I wouldn't be surprised if even bank safes are not two inches solid steel.

RANGER295
11-29-2006, 9:49 PM
I have a relatively hard time buying that.

Reason being, I have a 1 1/4 inch steel plate that is 12x12 and only 2 loads have managed to pierce it. One being a 300WinMag load using 163grn M2 AP bullets(roughly 3200fps as opposed to 30-06 at 2800fps), 3rd load over starting managed to put one round out of 5 through the plate at roughly 80-100 yards. Other load being my 50BMG using M2 700grn AP, only 4 rounds out of roughly 40 shots have completely penetrated it at 150-200 yards.

My plate is relatively mild steel too, with 5.56 M193 making typical 3/16 inch wide/deep divots in the steel.


2 inches of steel is a LOT of steel, if a M2 30-06 round is making it through it then I would be very suspect of what kind of steel it is and definitely suspect it of being mild or some kind of sandwhiched steel.


the back side of my plate looks much like this, many of the 50BMG M2 projectiles become stuck in the plate at some partially penetrated depth. To try and help get the projectiles through I've tried to get it as rigidly mounted or supported when out shooting using it as a gong.

I've also tried 150grn M61AP projos from the 300WinMag, those projectiles are relative junk. Starting load at 3300ish fps couldn't even manage to bump the back side of the plate, something the M2 AP projos managed on the starting load. The M61 projectiles were failing due to their cores being a more mild steel, they were fusing and deforming on impact. Where as M2 projectiles remain sharp(I've got a 50BMG M2 core here on my desk from it being shot at a huge boulder only 200 or so yards away, the darn core is still sharp after surviving impact with ROCK! it was deflected back down to the ground and found laying about 2 feet from the front of it)
Here are pictures of the door. It is from an Atlas floor safe. The holes under where the dial would go are from a drill. I measured the depth of the holes. Most of the steel cores are lodged about an inch to an inch and a half in the door. They stopped when they hit the layered tumblers or whatever you want to call them a couple near the edge deflected to the side. One that you can see in the close up went all the way through though it glanced off of a bolt and changed direction. That hole from entrance to exit is about 1.75 inches. I really do not know what grade of steel it is but [edit]i just noticed the hammer marks so maybe it isnt as hard as i thought[edit]. The ammo was steel cored .30-06 dated 1943. It was at about the same distance as the plate in the other picture. Take it for what it is worth.
http://i14.tinypic.com/486gtxz.jpg
http://i11.tinypic.com/34eyzwh.jpg

uglygun
11-29-2006, 10:40 PM
Thanks for the pic.

Yeah, I'd definitely say that it's a mild kind of steel and an unknown alloy.

I can't recall 100% but I think M2 50BMG is rated for only around 1/2 inch of hardened armor grade steel(seen the charts around somewhere, can't recall where at the moment), even RAUFOSS MK262 isn't all that incredible from what I've read(similar total penetration to M2, only SLAP beats them) and M2 30-06 being below both.

The AP rounds I really want to play with are M993 and M995 but I'll likely never see those, ever.



One of the things I want to do is see what 300RUM could manage with the M2 AP round(3600ish fps). I also want to try some Barnes 125grn solids at a good 3700ish+ fps could do to steel, something between the damage of a lead core round and that of a steel core round I would imagine.

NwG
11-29-2006, 11:19 PM
Check out DS welding, they make rifle rated targets at a pretty good price.. They are up off the 118 west of the 405..

While AR500 steel is really hard stuff that hardness is also its downfall.. IF the plate is not able to move, or struck at a 90* angle even rather mild rifle rounds will pass through it.. The round dosen't crater or push the metal out of the way like mild steel, rather it punches a clean slug of steel like a hole punch.. When the target is hit at at an angle a good deal of the rounds energy will be lost to deflection... The remaining energy will be lost by the plate being able to swing after being hit..

As an example I was shooting at my 18" 3/8" thick AR500 gong target @ ~150 yards with my .22-250... The plate had got stuck stright up and down and was not able to swing.. The .22-250 VARMINT rounds went clean through the target! This target has stood up to a few thousand .223 and .308 rounds with no marks.. And a few pretty much frangable rounds went clean through!

Also, if you want to make your own rifle targets.. DO NOT cut your expensive AR500 stell with a torch!! DO NOT weld on to armor steel!!! The extra heat will distroy the temper of the steel and make it worthless.. You can use a plasma cutter with care to cut, better yet use a waterjet...

Nate D