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View Full Version : Range Report - Beretta Neos Carbine (UPDATE ON LEGALITY OF KIT FROM BERETTA)


Dion
05-07-2011, 4:16 PM
Note: My last thread went way off topic and it ended up getting into a flame match regarding the legality of this kit. Ultimately it was closed. Please do not hijack this thread into one of those again. There are some fellow CG'ers, that I believe, are sincerely interested in this kit and would like a honest review. Thanks.

This morning I went for my weekly trip to the range, excited to try my new Beretta Neos Carbine kit. In my last thread, I noted how 1) light and manueverable it was 2) a great 30" OAL 3) only 20" when broken down and 4) Starship Trooper looks. :D

My ultimate curiosity was to see how well it shot.

Holding it while standing felt very, very good. However, you have to be aware of the warning Beretta gives:Always wear impact resistant shooting glasses when firing your U22 Neos Carbine. Because a shooter's face is closer to the firearm when shooting a carbine, gas and particle escapage is more noticeable and shooting glasses are particularly useful. Please note that some types of .22LR ammunition are cleaner to fire and provide less residue blowback.

I did feel this with some Golden Bullets that I got in a trade.

Here are my first shots.

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The I went off to the 50 yard stations which was a bit of a fail with the iron sights. After adjusting myself, I finally was able to get some in the black. It was difficult because the TruGlo sight covered the target entirely. As is, I would say this carbine is perfect for up to 25 yards without optics.

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So I went back to the rimfire/pistol range and started doing clockwise targets to test transitions from target to target. I know, I'm pulling right and I need to loosen that grip up. These groupings were all done with Remington Golden Bullets. Suprisingly they actually worked well. I had ONE failure to feed today, and I shot about 500 rounds through this gun.

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I am definitely going to keep it in this configuration, as I did not miss it in pistol form. It is short, light and super fun and accurate. Mag changes are quick and it takes literally 30 seconds to break it down. Some of the cons would be its size if you are a larger person and the legality of switching from rifle back to pistol, which may pose a problem (again, please save that discussion for the 2nd Amendment forum).

I think this is a perfect candidate for a "camp gun" or "bug out" gun. This is a size comparison to the very small M1 Carbine.

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Dion
05-09-2011, 12:10 PM
I just received an e-mail back from Beretta regarding the switching back and forth between rifle and pistol using this kit. This is what they sent me in two e-mails.

What I sent:I bought a used Carbine Kit for my Beretta Neos and have questions. There is a TON of discussion on the internet regarding the legality of this kit, and how converting the pistol to a rifle is okay to do, but going from rifle back to pistol is against federal law. I am aware that this kit meets the requirements for a short barrel rifle as it is over 16".

Please give me a definitive answer on this. I have heard your company says that since the gun was registered first as a handgun, going from rifle to pistol and back and forth is okay to do.

There are a lot of scared Neos owners out there and a clear answer to this issue would be appreciated. Thank you.

Their response:
As per the Beretta legal Dept, the kit meets all the legal guide lines of state and federal laws require.

Thank you for contacting Beretta Customer Support.
Hello Dion:

Thank you for contacting Beretta Customer Support.

Since the firearm was purchased and registered as a pistol, it is lawful to convert it to a rifle and then back to its original form - a pistol.

Best regards,

Beretta Customer Support

pilote
05-09-2011, 2:27 PM
the above was clear to me from the start; from when Beretta finally put the carbine kit for sale...from pistol to carbine to pistol to carbine to pistol to carbine and so on and so forth...NEOS owners: CONVERT FREELY AND WITHOUT FEAR!

...so where is the mensa who told me i was stoopid and a criminal on converting a Neos back and forth?

davek8s
05-09-2011, 5:08 PM
Your last thread got ugly quick, but I'm glad you got an answer from Beretta. Have fun legally switching from carbine to pistol as much as you like

pontiacpratt
05-09-2011, 5:46 PM
Good to hear! I love my NEOS but the kit is a little to much for my blood just yet (especially since I only paid $99 for my Marlin 795). I wish I had acquired the 7.5" barrel for my pistol.:D

nick
05-09-2011, 6:53 PM
Good to hear! I love my NEOS but the kit is a little to much for my blood just yet (especially since I only paid $99 for my Marlin 795). I wish I had acquired the 7.5" barrel for my pistol.:D

That would be quite a heavy barrel. My Neos is front-heavy with the 6" barrel as it is.

Dion
05-09-2011, 6:57 PM
I got mine on eBay for $180 :)

dfletcher
05-09-2011, 8:36 PM
I believe in swimming against the stream so I'll give this one try. I didn't see the "got bad fast" thread. There's an ATF letter floating around here that addresses the point (if someone could find it that would be neat, I could be making all this up :)) and I think it goes like this ....

If a "kit" contains the parts required to assemble both a legally configured handgun and a legally configured handgun it is legal to to go from handgun to long gun and back to handgun with that specific receiver. The restriction ATF put on this is that the item is to be purchased as a kit from a single source, not assembled haphazardly over time. I believe the term they used is that "ideally" the item should be purchased all at once - I remember the term because it seemed out of place in an ATF "though shalt do this" letter.

I'm at a disadvantage because I know zip about the NEOS, so I'll use the T/C for an example.

A "kit" containing one receiver, a shoulder stock, a handgun stock, a +16" bbl and a fewer than 16" bbl would allow for assembly as a handgun and assemby as a legally configured long gun (no fewer than 16" barrel with the shoulder stock) and back to handgun configuration. As many times as one wants with that frame.

As a result of the much talked about and misunderstood 1992 US v T/C (or T/C v US, WTH do I know) ATF issued a peevish little letter that in effect said "the ruling applies to only these T/C kits and nothing else" which of course is asinine. IIRC about 2009 ATF's follow up letter came out allowing the "assembly & reconfiguration" attribute to any kit which contained all the parts required to assemble a legally configured long gun and handgun.

I think it's no accident the NEOS kit came out shortly after, I've always wondered why AR makers haven't come out with similar kits.

Well that's my shot at it, politely taken. If I missed a minor point and anyone has better info that would be great to know.

Actually - here's the letter on page 1, the "kit" info is on page 2 of the letter.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=227314

Dion
05-09-2011, 9:46 PM
Well that's my shot at it, politely taken. If I missed a minor point and anyone has better info that would be great to know.

That's all good Mr. Fletcher... :)

After my last thread, I went deep into the Internet world to get the absolute correct answer - unfortunately there was nothing but speculation and copy-and-paste gun laws. There is even a guy ranting over the same legality issue on YouTube... ultimately this guy got rid of it.

I thought to myself "This is all silliness... why would a major gun maker expose themselves at this level of risk?"

You see, I am a businessman and no business dumps that much r&d and resources into something that they don't feel will make a profit. It is common sense to realize that Beretta would do their homework.

I hope this thread pops up on searches when somebody has a similar dilemma. This information should be widely shared with all Neos owners.

Don't fear the flames! Kit it up! FREEEDOMMMMM!

http://electroniccigaretteinformation.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/mel-gibson-braveheart-freedom.jpg

dfletcher
05-09-2011, 10:25 PM
^^^

I think we're in an area - and this includes the T/Cs and ARs too - where the ability for us to switch stocks, barrels and change configuration has become so easy that the law has been left behind a bit. I think most of us understand "thou shalt not hacksaw a barrel less than 16" but all this other stuff - it begs review by the powers that be.

dfletcher
05-10-2011, 10:52 AM
After my last thread, I went deep into the Internet world to get the absolute correct answer - unfortunately there was nothing but speculation and copy-and-paste gun laws. There is even a guy ranting over the same legality issue on YouTube... ultimately this guy got rid of it.

I thought to myself "This is all silliness... why would a major gun maker expose themselves at this level of risk?"

You see, I am a businessman and no business dumps that much r&d and resources into something that they don't feel will make a profit. It is common sense to realize that Beretta would do their homework.

I hope this thread pops up on searches when somebody has a similar dilemma. This information should be widely shared with all Neos owners.



I think some of the questions to ask are "does the Beretta 'kit' meet the criteria specified in the ATF letter?" and "what is ATF definition of a 'single source'?"

If accurate that the NEOS kit contains a shoulder stock only and a +16" barrel only then it does not appear to meet the ATF definition of a kit. Then move to the "single source" issue - what is that specifically? The same store, the same distibutor or just the same manufacturer? Is a "kit from the same source" a single purchase of all items at once or can it be from the same manufacturer over a period of time? A strictest interpretation of the kit and single source requirement could be buying all the parts specified by ATF at the same time as a complete kit. The loosest interpretation might be buying all the parts from the same "source" (meaning manufacturer) over a period of time. I don't know the answer.

We then have to deal with the ATF requirement of the receiver not being previously assembled as a handgun or a long gun. According to the ATF letter if one purchases a NEOS frame but does not assemble it as a handgun first - they're fine. If one purchases a NEOS already assembled as a handgun - not fine.

Regarding the "a company would be too careful and not do this" I'd like to think so too. Makes sense to me they would know what to do and not do, big $$$ and PO'd customers are on the line. It would be interesting to get their take on the ATF letter. One could interpret Beretta's responses to the questions already posted to mean "if the frame was purchased as a handgun with the barrel not attached and if one purchased our "kit" at the same time you can switch back & forth between handgun and long gun". I don't think they wrote anything contrary to that strict interpretation, but that's not exactly answering the questions in a most helpful manner.

I think the scenario gets complicated & requires precisely worded questions & follow up for accurate and complete answers. I think an "all in one" complete single source kit complies with the criteria in the ATF letter allowing back & forth switching. As one strays from that all in one complete single source kit - I think it becomes more difficult to give a certain answer. I think separately buying a NEOS handgun a few years back, then separately buying and attaching the NEOS carbine kit, does not appear to meet the criteria specified in the ATF letter. That's just my layman's read of the thing.

Dion
05-10-2011, 1:37 PM
I think some of the questions to ask are "does the Beretta 'kit' meet the criteria specified in the ATF letter?" and "what is ATF definition of a 'single source'?"

If accurate that the NEOS kit contains a shoulder stock only and a +16" barrel only then it does not appear to meet the ATF definition of a kit. Then move to the "single source" issue - what is that specifically? The same store, the same distibutor or just the same manufacturer? Is a "kit from the same source" a single purchase of all items at once or can it be from the same manufacturer over a period of time? A strictest interpretation of the kit and single source requirement could be buying all the parts specified by ATF at the same time as a complete kit. The loosest interpretation might be buying all the parts from the same "source" (meaning manufacturer) over a period of time. I don't know the answer.

We then have to deal with the ATF requirement of the receiver not being previously assembled as a handgun or a long gun. According to the ATF letter if one purchases a NEOS frame but does not assemble it as a handgun first - they're fine. If one purchases a NEOS already assembled as a handgun - not fine.

Regarding the "a company would be too careful and not do this" I'd like to think so too. Makes sense to me they would know what to do and not do, big $$$ and PO'd customers are on the line. It would be interesting to get their take on the ATF letter. One could interpret Beretta's responses to the questions already posted to mean "if the frame was purchased as a handgun with the barrel not attached and if one purchased our "kit" at the same time you can switch back & forth between handgun and long gun". I don't think they wrote anything contrary to that strict interpretation, but that's not exactly answering the questions in a most helpful manner.

I think the scenario gets complicated & requires precisely worded questions & follow up for accurate and complete answers. I think an "all in one" complete single source kit complies with the criteria in the ATF letter allowing back & forth switching. As one strays from that all in one complete single source kit - I think it becomes more difficult to give a certain answer. I think separately buying a NEOS handgun a few years back, then separately buying and attaching the NEOS carbine kit, does not appear to meet the criteria specified in the ATF letter. That's just my layman's read of the thing.

Well, I think it really get's weird, like you said, in the days of AR building and archaic gun laws. Look at what people are doing with off roster handguns and single shot exemptions!

I highly doubt the black helicopter is going to hover my house and do me in like Binny Laden, but for future reference I guess I'll throw a copy of Beretta's response in my range bag in case somebody tries to hassle me. Very unlikely, though.