PDA

View Full Version : Affordable COMPLETE AR?


bluebird
05-05-2011, 11:16 PM
Hi everyone,

So I decided not to build a 80% lower since I figure it'd be better for me to get a complete AR and start from there.

Which COMPLETE AR would you recommend a firearm newbie to get? My budget is enough to get a Daniel Defense AR but I wonder if there are any more affordable choices (so that I can buy optics/ more ammo).

I saw that Smith and Wesson has a M&P 15 Sport which is pretty cheap comparing to Daniel Defense's ARs. Is it any good? I plan to upgrade it when I have more budget so I prefer a milspec rifle.

I'm fine with any AR that will eat 90% of the ammo I feed it and adequately accurate (I'm not sure how I should define adequately accurate so it's your call).

One last thing, is driver's license the only thing I need to purchase a complete rifle? Do I need to use my college address on the 4473 or can I just use my DL's address (which is my permanent address)? Thanks a lot!

Bluebird

Interfan
05-05-2011, 11:19 PM
Get the Daniel Defense. The cheap ones are cheap for a reason.

Veggie
05-05-2011, 11:22 PM
Spikes Tactical make very good AR15s for a very reasonable price.

tuna quesadilla
05-05-2011, 11:32 PM
Spike's Tactical
Stag Arms
BCM
Smith & Wesson

bluebird
05-05-2011, 11:34 PM
Spike's Tactical
Stag Arms
BCM
Smith & Wesson

How would you compare them? Thanks!

MrPlink
05-05-2011, 11:35 PM
Spikes Tactical make very good AR15s for a very reasonable price.

yep...

but if saving cash is the game, you dont need to start with a 80% to build one.

Why not just start with a stripped lower and build it from there?

You can do a simple build with a quality upper (like BCM or LMT) for about as much as what you spend on a base model Spikes or Stag.

Plus actually putting the thing together is a great way to learn the system, and helps a lot with trouble shooting problems or fine tuning down the road.

as far as comparing the listed names,

most folks here would probably rank them
BCM
S&W
Spikes
Stag

they are all fine though.

bluebird
05-05-2011, 11:38 PM
yep...

but if saving cash is the game, you dont need to start with a 80% to build one.

Why not just start with a stripped lower and build it from there?

You can do a simple build with a quality upper (like BCM or LMT) for about as much as what you spend on a base model Spikes or Stag.

Plus actually putting the thing together is a great way to learn the system, and helps a lot with trouble shooting problems or fine tuning down the road.

as far as comparing the listed names,

most folks here would probably rank them
BCM
S&W
Spikes
Stag

they are all fine though.

I'm not old enough =(

MrPlink
05-05-2011, 11:44 PM
Ohhhh right, I remember that from the other thread.

Stupid California laws....

Are your parents ok with you owning a rifle?

You could always have them DROS it then gift it to you.

iskra31
05-05-2011, 11:46 PM
Thats the way I went! :D

Ohhhh right, I remember that from the other thread.

Stupid California laws....

Are your parents ok with you owning a rifle?

You could always have them DROS it then gift it to you.

MrPlink
05-05-2011, 11:48 PM
Thats the way I went! :D

and there you have it.

Man I cant wait to have a kid, just so I can tell him no!
Im gonna tell him he cant do all sorts of stuff, even things I agree with!
I think its the only reason I would want a kid...

Colt-45
05-05-2011, 11:55 PM
Go with DD or Stag :D

bluebird
05-06-2011, 12:01 AM
Ohhhh right, I remember that from the other thread.

Stupid California laws....

Are your parents ok with you owning a rifle?

You could always have them DROS it then gift it to you.

My parents currently live overseas so that's not an option.

And, they are okay with me owning guns; they are very laid back =)

(My dad used to play milsim airsoft with me LOL)

7.62 Charlie
05-06-2011, 12:19 AM
Try the marketplace.

bluebird
05-06-2011, 7:07 AM
Try the marketplace.

This is my first firearm so I would prefer buying a new rifle because if something goes wrong it would be potentially easier for me to find out the problem (I believe).

tomd1584
05-06-2011, 7:59 AM
you could do a complete BCM midlength from G&R tactical, minus handguards (not in stock at the moment) including a MBUS rear sight for $1095 INCLUDING a bullet button.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-750-C

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 8:27 AM
Well, I'll give you the route I've taken.

I started off with a Palmetto upper from www.palmettostatearmory.com and it looks great. Their new one is a 416 stainless steel barrel with M4 cuts, 1:8 Wylde chamber and looks fantastic. It should shoot 50gr-75gr pretty well through that twist rate. It will also shoot .223/5.56 due to the chambering.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/2096.php

Then figure out your lower (really which is where you should start) I decided on a TKS Engineering lower from www.rainierarms.com
I got this one for $150 and thought it was a great deal with it being really beefy, has an integrated winter trigger guard and is billet aluminum and the milling looks phenomenal. You can get a lower for as low as $59-69 dollars with a group buy or just special pricing you can find on the board from time to time.

Then you're going to need to build your lower:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-parts-kits.php

They have the lowest prices on LPK's I've seen around period. You can get them to throw in a Geissele SSA, Match trigger, mil-spec trigger or whatever you want. For $50 to get you started shooting you can't beat 'em though.

Add in your buttstock and you'd have to figure out what you want to go with. So many options from magpul, LMT, ACE, VLTOR, or just a factory mil-spec 6 position stock. Also a Fixed A2 stock may look a bit goofy on a 16" build but its just a preference.

Last thing you're going to need is a rear sight or optic. This could be the deal breaker if you go with something like an ACOG versus a Bushnell or Primary arms red dot. I would say just get a Magpul MOE rear sight and start with irons (Or plastics :D whatever the case may be) and get proficient with them first. This way you can shoot 25-200 yards or more comfortably before jumping into the scope world. I like LMT tactical rear sights or carry handles best because they have both windage and elevation adjustments on the fly and you don't have to use a tool so much except for the initial sight in for the first time. Another option which isn't cheap is a KAC Micro 200-600 yard adjustable sight. Best sight I ever owned but its NOT CHEAP!!!!!!

If you're looking for a basic build, this is the breakdown:

Lower $100-200 (this is for a nice billet lower)
Upper $429 + 12 to ship
LPK $50 (we're assuming you're gonna start basic like the Daniel Defense setup)
Buttstock $50-175 depending on what you go with like a 93b or CTR for $130 complete.
Rear Sight: $55 (Assuming Magpul MBUS)
-------------------------
Grand total: $684 for the cheaper side vs. $864 or so depending on the buttstock, lower, and other little things like YHM EZ takedown pins which I recommend to EVERYONE on their builds. They are nothing to put in and make it so much easier to take your rifle down.

Anyway, hope this helps some and you can always do what I've said with another brand or other options for uppers, but I personally think this is the best deal out there on a budget right now. PKfirearms.com also has some fantastic uppers at really great prices but they won't work with us on lowers so that can be a bit of a bummer. Good luck with your decisions and hopefully post up what you build.

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 8:35 AM
You need to put your DL address on the 4473. Thats your permanent address. Any misunderstanding or miscommunication will screw the transaction up. You DL must be current, valid, readable, a permanent one, NOT a paper replacement. You can not have any outstanding tickets that are unpaid after court order or past due balance, or fees linked to your DL...in CA the DMV controls our right to bear arms...if they say No....the DoJ rejects your DROS and you just lost your cash.

ARfiend
05-06-2011, 8:57 AM
I'm a little confused. Is there a different age requirement between buying a stripped lower and a complete rifle. I thought they were both 18???

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 9:30 AM
You need to put your DL address on the 4473. Thats your permanent address. Any misunderstanding or miscommunication will screw the transaction up. You DL must be current, valid, readable, a permanent one, NOT a paper replacement. You can not have any outstanding tickets, or fees linked to your DL...in CA the DMV controls our right to bear arms...if they say No....the DoJ rejects your DROS and you just lost your cash.




True frickin story here. I just had this happen and had to chew on the DOJ a little bit about infringing on my second amendment rights due to my privilege to drive. They have no issues telling you no, and right now the dmv is 60-90 days out for issuing licenses. I'm stuck right now in the middle of a DROS and have to have a family member buy it and deal with the transfer when I'm done building it. Pretty friggin lame. For now my wife is going to buy an AR and I'll deal with doing the rest later.

wash
05-06-2011, 9:39 AM
Before you give up on the 80%, figure out if anyone is doing group buys and build parties in Davis.

It might be easier to do than you think (CNC is your friend).

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 9:43 AM
I'm a little confused. Is there a different age requirement between buying a stripped lower and a complete rifle. I thought they were both 18???

Question 18 on the ATF form 4473 states a stripped receiver is NOT a longarm and therefore only person 21 and over can buy.

Persons 20 and less can not buy Pistols or "other" firearms.

In CA our DROS is set up to only classify a firearm as a pistol or longarm, so under the DROS its a Longarm, that doesn't mean you can buy one under the federal law as a longarm. FFLs do violate this "ruling" and sell stripped lowers to under 21 buyers..sometimes.

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 9:48 AM
Here is a very inexpensive kit from Stag arms http://ar15sa.fatcow.com/store/page2.html Just add a $100 stripped lower to that and you have yourself a nice basic ready to modify AR for around $700.

ARfiend
05-06-2011, 9:48 AM
Gotcha, I guess when you're an old man you don't pay as close attention to the age requirements

Erin
05-06-2011, 9:53 AM
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-m4-le-carbine-p-387.html

mmmmm hmm

arc
05-06-2011, 9:53 AM
You need to put your DL address on the 4473. Thats your permanent address. Any misunderstanding or miscommunication will screw the transaction up. You DL must be current, valid, readable, a permanent one, NOT a paper replacement. You can not have any outstanding tickets, or fees linked to your DL...in CA the DMV controls our right to bear arms...if they say No....the DoJ rejects your DROS and you just lost your cash.

Wait? No tickets? That's not what my previous research here has shown. I found a number of threads saying you don't have to worry about having open tickets. I looked this up because I got a speeding ticket the other week for doing 75 in the HOV lane.

Dagnabbit, I hope I don't get denied. That's going to be a pain.

-James

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 10:02 AM
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/st15-m4-le-carbine-p-387.html

mmmmm hmm

If you don't mind waiting 6-8 weeks this would be a great choice.

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 10:13 AM
http://www.marksarmory.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CMMGBULLKIT

This is a fantastic "Kit" and all you'd need is a lower. Quad rail, free floating, decent upper and parts. You would need sights but MBUS front and rear are under a hundred bucks from most suppliers.

Also made by CMMG

http://www.marksarmory.com/v/vspfiles/photos/CMMGBULLKIT-2.jpg

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 10:16 AM
http://www.marksarmory.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=CMMGBULLKIT

This is a fantastic "Kit" and all you'd need is a lower. Quad rail, free floating, decent upper and parts. You would need sights but MBUS front and rear are under a hundred bucks from most suppliers.

Also made by CMMG

http://www.marksarmory.com/v/vspfiles/photos/CMMGBULLKIT-2.jpg

Also out of stock... A recurring theme these days. Great price though w/the rail

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 10:28 AM
Wait? No tickets? That's not what my previous research here has shown. I found a number of threads saying you don't have to worry about having open tickets. I looked this up because I got a speeding ticket the other week for doing 75 in the HOV lane.

Dagnabbit, I hope I don't get denied. That's going to be a pain.

-James

Sorry, I should have explained and I will edit my post.

I meant unpaid after court order or past due balance.

arc
05-06-2011, 10:50 AM
Sorry, I should have explained and I will edit my post.

I meant unpaid after court order or past due balance.

Whew!! Glad I misunderstood. This whole 10 day wait thing makes me feel like I'm being judged. Oh wait, I am.

Thanks for the clarification.

-James

ETA: sorry for the thread-jack

sendithit
05-06-2011, 10:57 AM
I've seen NIB Del-Ton Inc. AR15s in the $700~$800 range depending on which dealer has it for sale in CA (minus tax, dros, etc.) How do these rifles compare?

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 11:29 AM
I've seen NIB Del-Ton Inc. AR15s in the $700~$800 range depending on which dealer has it for sale in CA (minus tax, dros, etc.) How do these rifles compare?

Look at my above post and for the price, they're not going to be anywhere near as nice as what I threw out there.

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 12:12 PM
I've seen NIB Del-Ton Inc. AR15s in the $700~$800 range depending on which dealer has it for sale in CA (minus tax, dros, etc.) How do these rifles compare?

Look at my post earlier RE: the Stag Rifle Kit. $614 shipped- no tax no DROS(on the kit) and then just buy a $100 stripped lower and you have got a $714 rifle. I got my lower at RifleGear Spike's Zombie for $109 w/colorfill. From what I hear Stag is a "better" rifle than the Del-Ton's but i have no experience with either.

hammerhands32
05-06-2011, 12:19 PM
http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2072.php

Why does Palmetto charge a 11% "Federal excise tax". Never heard of that before

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 12:21 PM
They only do if they're sending it with the LPK for some reason. They won't charge it if you buy the lower by itself.

Bigbird19
05-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Daniel Defense :gunsmilie:

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 12:47 PM
They only do if they're sending it with the LPK for some reason. They won't charge it if you buy the lower by itself.

buying an LPK and a lower implies building a firearm, which under the strict wording of the law requires a tax to be paid. Its uncommon to do, but its a CYA for a single transaction with both.

Look at my post earlier RE: the Stag Rifle Kit. $614 shipped- no tax no DROS(on the kit) and then just buy a $100 stripped lower and you have got a $714 rifle. I got my lower at RifleGear Spike's Zombie for $109 w/colorfill. From what I hear Stag is a "better" rifle than the Del-Ton's but i have no experience with either.

yup... real prices..
$614, shipped + (you pay the tax at the end of the year with an online purchase so its another $50.66 later and not in this)

then you go and buy a stripped lower at $100 + tax = $109 + DROS $25 =$134.

one 10rd magazine $17

614+134+17= $765

even going as high as $130 for a lower = $166 out the door. or $800ish total.

Its a great deal.

There is nothing wrong with the DTI $505 deal. You are just paying $110 less and that may mean a less than pretty appearance.

heck I would do a DTi Kit and Plumcrazy lower = $715 rifle with an extra LPK, grip and Stock kit.

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 1:14 PM
buying an LPK and a lower implies building a firearm, which under the strict wording of the law requires a tax to be paid. Its uncommon to do, but its a CYA for a single transaction with both.



yup... real prices..
$614, shipped + (you pay the tax at the end of the year with an online purchase so its another $50.66 later and not in this)

then you go and buy a stripped lower at $100 + tax = $109 + DROS $25 =$134.

one 10rd magazine $17

614+134+17= $765

even going as high as $130 for a lower = $166 out the door. or $800ish total.

Its a great deal.

There is nothing wrong with the DTI $505 deal. You are just paying $110 less and that may mean a less than pretty appearance.

heck I would do a DTi Kit and Plumcrazy lower = $715 rifle with an extra LPK, grip and Stock kit.

Well if we're going apples to apples the Stag kit includes a chrome lined barrel and the DTI kit offers chrome lined for an additional $45, the Stag kit comes with a rear flip up sight and there is not an option for one with the DTI kit, but we can add one from their store.

So for the DTI kit plus the chrome lined barrel and shipping($25) it totals $535 plus a folding rear sight from DTI's website the MBUIS for a total of $603.06(total shipping now $36.11) plus that $109 lower and Dros at $25 you have $737.06 oh yeah plus $17 for the magazine = $754

So all told it is $765 for the Stag and $754 for the Del-Ton... Real enough prices?

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 1:23 PM
Well if we're going apples to apples the Stag kit includes a chrome lined barrel and the DTI kit offers chrome lined for an additional $45, the Stag kit comes with a rear flip up sight and there is not an option for one with the DTI kit, but we can add one from their store.

So for the DTI kit plus the chrome lined barrel and shipping($25) it totals $535 plus a folding rear sight from DTI's website the MBUIS for a total of $603.06(total shipping now $36.11) plus that $109 lower and Dros at $25 you have $737.06 oh yeah plus $17 for the magazine = $754

So all told it is $765 for the Stag and $754 for the Del-Ton... Real enough prices?

you did mention that flip up sight, but didnt mention its a $100 ARMS 40L.

even more I think the delton handguards are thinner plastic than the stag ones.

Of the two if cost was an issue over product, Id go with the DTi for $505.
If I had the extra $110 I would go with the Stag.
If I was saving for a good optic and was set on a strict budget I would have to write everything down before I bought either.

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 1:24 PM
Well if we're going apples to apples the Stag kit includes a chrome lined barrel and the DTI kit offers chrome lined for an additional $45, the Stag kit comes with a rear flip up sight and there is not an option for one with the DTI kit, but we can add one from their store.

So for the DTI kit plus the chrome lined barrel and shipping($25) it totals $535 plus a folding rear sight from DTI's website the MBUIS for a total of $603.06(total shipping now $36.11) plus that $109 lower and Dros at $25 you have $737.06 oh yeah plus $17 for the magazine = $754

So all told it is $765 for the Stag and $754 for the Del-Ton... Real enough prices?

I actually forgot about the sling adapter, pulls Stag ahead :D... On the build I am doing if I do not go 7.62x39 I will be getting this Stag kit- then I will actually have some real world experience to draw on when giving advice on the internet.

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 1:32 PM
I actually forgot about the sling adapter, pulls Stag ahead :D... On the build I am doing if I do not go 7.62x39 I will be getting this Stag kit- then I will actually have some real world experience to draw on when giving advice on the internet.

yeah for what you are getting by far the better deal is the Stag with all the swag gear you get.

That doesn't help a guy who has $600 MAX he can spend. The $505 kit + a BUIS + a Magazine + a cheap sling = $600.00. You can spin it any way you want, but in the end your wallet drives your purchase.

I can sell you a freaking awesome rifle for $4000.00, its worth over $6500.00 that doesn't help a guy who only has $3000.00 to spend. That guy needs to work inside of his budget and get what he can and not worry about the good deal he can't afford.

bluebird
05-06-2011, 2:37 PM
To anyone who doesn't know why I HAVE TO buy a complete:

I have to because I'm under 21...a kit is out of the question unfortunately =(

Before you give up on the 80%, figure out if anyone is doing group buys and build parties in Davis.

It might be easier to do than you think (CNC is your friend).

I'm not aware of any AR build parties near Davis right now. Given I won't buy it until at least next month (I'm leaving dorms in a month), I can wait.




What would you guys recommend between SW M&P 15 Sport and Spikes Tactical ST-15 M4 LE Carbine? I believe these 2 are the cheapest (and reasonably reliable?) complete AR I can buy in California? How would you compare these 2? I do plan to add/replace things like optics/grip/hand guard/stock etc when I have more budget so a milspec rifle is preferred.

Are there any cheaper/better options out there that I should look at?

I don't have any traffic tickets so I should be fine.

Thank you guys for your generous help and I truly appreciate your replies =)

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 2:53 PM
That Stag I was talking about is like $900 on their website in complete form plus the transfer fee and dros and shipping and sales tax http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=427986 .... How long until you are 21(20 right?)? Just buy the more expensive pieces for your upper one at a time(if money is an issue) until you have the complete upper of your dreams then on your 21st go DROS a stripped lower and 10 days later enjoy your new rifle. :D

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 2:54 PM
To anyone who doesn't know why I HAVE TO buy a complete:

I have to because I'm under 21...a kit is out of the question unfortunately =(



I'm not aware of any AR build parties near Davis right now. Given I won't buy it until at least next month (I'm leaving dorms in a month), I can wait.




What would you guys recommend between SW M&P 15 Sport and Spikes Tactical ST-15 M4 LE Carbine? I believe these 2 are the cheapest (and reasonably reliable?) complete AR I can buy in California? How would you compare these 2? I do plan to add/replace things like optics/grip/hand guard/stock etc when I have more budget so a milspec rifle is preferred.

Are there any cheaper/better options out there that I should look at?

I don't have any traffic tickets so I should be fine.

Thank you guys for your generous help and I truly appreciate your replies =)

The S&W has a solid company behind it. The Spikes has a good rep and is well accepted in the AR15 community.

I would go with the larger company S&W only for the past longevity of S&W. I like Spikes as much as the next guy so its a coin toss and a roll mark really.

which roll mark do you like more?

bluebird
05-06-2011, 3:18 PM
That Stag I was talking about is like $900 on their website in complete form plus the transfer fee and dros and shipping and sales tax http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=427986 .... How long until you are 21(20 right?)? Just buy the more expensive pieces for your upper one at a time(if money is an issue) until you have the complete upper of your dreams then on your 21st go DROS a stripped lower and 10 days later enjoy your new rifle. :D

I'm...18 right now.

The S&W has a solid company behind it. The Spikes has a good rep and is well accepted in the AR15 community.

I would go with the larger company S&W only for the past longevity of S&W. I like Spikes as much as the next guy so its a coin toss and a roll mark really.

which roll mark do you like more?

I like Spikes' roll mark just a tiny bit better but I'm not willing to pay an extra $100 for it LOL. Guess I'll try to look for S&W when I am buying it.

Do you guys have any recommendations on any FFLs around Davis area?

Thanks again!

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 3:33 PM
Here is a good place to start on the FFL search.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=320596

S&W is "on sale" at Turners right now.... http://turners.com/engage/displayads.php

bluebird
05-06-2011, 3:40 PM
Here is a good place to start on the FFL search.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=320596

S&W is "on sale" at Turners right now.... http://turners.com/engage/displayads.php

Wait a second...is S&W M&P 15 Sport actually $700? S&W website's price is way less than $900...

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 3:41 PM
Have an "of age" buddy DROS the lower, you buy the upper and slap it on the rifle... then have him sell it to you. PTP transfer fees are cheaper than incoming FFL transfer fees... Usually. Plus this way you can put off paying that sales tax if you buy the upper kit from an out of state website.

newglockster
05-06-2011, 3:43 PM
Awesome thread!
"tag"

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 3:45 PM
Here is a good place to start on the FFL search.


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=320596

S&W is "on sale" at Turners right now.... http://turners.com/engage/displayads.php

$929+$100 for sights=$1029+ tax = $1113.90 + $25 DROS = $1138.90.

There are better deals out there.

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 3:46 PM
$929+$100 for sights=$1029+ tax = $1113.90 + $25 DROS = $1138.90.

There are better deals out there.

Hence the "on sale" in quotation marks

bluebird
05-06-2011, 5:02 PM
Have an "of age" buddy DROS the lower, you buy the upper and slap it on the rifle... then have him sell it to you. PTP transfer fees are cheaper than incoming FFL transfer fees... Usually. Plus this way you can put off paying that sales tax if you buy the upper kit from an out of state website.

Unfortunately I don't currently know anyone that is willing to do that for me...

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 6:02 PM
Have an "of age" buddy DROS the lower, you buy the upper and slap it on the rifle... then have him sell it to you. PTP transfer fees are cheaper than incoming FFL transfer fees... Usually. Plus this way you can put off paying that sales tax if you buy the upper kit from an out of state website.

I just saw this....felony straw buy... do not do this.

It doesn't matter if he is legal or not to buy the rifle...if its illegal for him to buy the lower and someone buys the lower with the intent to sell it to him...thats illegal.

It doesn't matter WHY he can not buy the lower. The fact he can NOT and someone is not truthful on the Federal Form ATF 4473 Q12a
"Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.).

Please remember there is no defense for ling to the Federal government for any reason...don't believe me...ask Martha Stewart.

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 6:18 PM
buying an LPK and a lower implies building a firearm, which under the strict wording of the law requires a tax to be paid. Its uncommon to do, but its a CYA for a single transaction with both.



yup... real prices..
$614, shipped + (you pay the tax at the end of the year with an online purchase so its another $50.66 later and not in this)

then you go and buy a stripped lower at $100 + tax = $109 + DROS $25 =$134.

one 10rd magazine $17

614+134+17= $765

even going as high as $130 for a lower = $166 out the door. or $800ish total.

Its a great deal.

There is nothing wrong with the DTI $505 deal. You are just paying $110 less and that may mean a less than pretty appearance.

heck I would do a DTi Kit and Plumcrazy lower = $715 rifle with an extra LPK, grip and Stock kit.


I'm still gonna go with the build I showed earlier at around $675 including a lower with a stainless barreled upper. Way nicer specs than going stag or DTI IMO. I would just prefer the stainless 1:8 twist if nothing else, but still thats including a lower at around $675 or so.

Well if we're going apples to apples the Stag kit includes a chrome lined barrel and the DTI kit offers chrome lined for an additional $45, the Stag kit comes with a rear flip up sight and there is not an option for one with the DTI kit, but we can add one from their store.

So for the DTI kit plus the chrome lined barrel and shipping($25) it totals $535 plus a folding rear sight from DTI's website the MBUIS for a total of $603.06(total shipping now $36.11) plus that $109 lower and Dros at $25 you have $737.06 oh yeah plus $17 for the magazine = $754

So all told it is $765 for the Stag and $754 for the Del-Ton... Real enough prices?

Again, look at my post above. You can do a decent setup much cheaper, by a good $100 or so.

you did mention that flip up sight, but didnt mention its a $100 ARMS 40L.

even more I think the delton handguards are thinner plastic than the stag ones.

Of the two if cost was an issue over product, Id go with the DTi for $505.
If I had the extra $110 I would go with the Stag.
If I was saving for a good optic and was set on a strict budget I would have to write everything down before I bought either.

Cheap DTI non chrome-lined which doesn't make or break it, but for ease of cleaning I prefer SS or Chrome lined. Any way you cut it, you're within about a hundred bucks or so of the budget so he can eat some ramen for a month or choose whichever he wants, so its a win-win.

Arisaka
05-06-2011, 8:06 PM
delton

RawImpact
05-06-2011, 8:10 PM
$110 Plum complete lower
$399 complete upper from commercial sales section
$30 rear sight
-------------
$540 + taxes + shipping + dros/fees

you're looking at ~$600 for a light weight rig which is not bad.

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 9:19 PM
$110 Plum complete lower
$399 complete upper from commercial sales section
$30 rear sight
-------------
$540 + taxes + shipping + dros/fees

you're looking at ~$600 for a light weight rig which is not bad.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; stick with a mil-spec t7075 aluminum lower. For the extra $50 you may save, its not worth the headache in the long run. Just buck up and look at the build I threw out before around $650-675 or so including everything and a stainless steel bbl. So much better than what else is out there.

ThemBastards
05-06-2011, 10:00 PM
I just saw this....felony straw buy... do not do this.

It doesn't matter if he is legal or not to buy the rifle...if its illegal for him to buy the lower and someone buys the lower with the intent to sell it to him...thats illegal.

It doesn't matter WHY he can not buy the lower. The fact he can NOT and someone is not truthful on the Federal Form ATF 4473 Q12a
"Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? (See Important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.).

Please remember there is no defense for ling to the Federal government for any reason...don't believe me...ask Martha Stewart.

I will defer to DP on this one, if its illegal then don't mess with it. You don't have anybody to buy you beer in college? Come on guy... You ready for a man's rifle? Haha j/k

Obviously a Plant
05-07-2011, 9:38 PM
You might check-out DS Arms as well.... I've never handled their AR's, but their FAL's are some of the best around. Full rifles start at $775.

http://www.dsarms.com/AR15-M16%20Rifles/products/10/

MacDime
05-07-2011, 9:42 PM
Just buy one of mine :D

bluebird
05-07-2011, 9:56 PM
Just buy one of mine :D

Hahahaha I don't know yet. I'm not gonna start looking until next month.

I don't want to buy a used rifle because I don't know if the FFL I use will require me to have a second address proof or not (which I don't want to spend the time to get one). I don't want to not be able to buy it and create a hassle for the seller.

RawImpact
05-07-2011, 10:00 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again; stick with a mil-spec t7075 aluminum lower. For the extra $50 you may save, its not worth the headache in the long run. Just buck up and look at the build I threw out before around $650-675 or so including everything and a stainless steel bbl. So much better than what else is out there.

Show me some evidence of a plum crazy failing due to a difference in material. I've heard nothing but good things about it, light weight, crisp light trigger... And the difference is close to half the price for a metal complete lower.

bombadillo
05-08-2011, 6:58 AM
Show me some evidence of a plum crazy failing due to a difference in material. I've heard nothing but good things about it, light weight, crisp light trigger... And the difference is close to half the price for a metal complete lower.

I've seen a lot of photos coming out of things happening now after 500-1000 rounds being fired where a gun is being taken down and the takedown pin hole elongates, flat out expoloded PC lowers, and I can build a lower within about 30-50 bucks of the cost of a PC lower anyway.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1560.php

Lower $79 (you can get them down to $49.99 on group guys regularly)

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1633.php
Lower build kit: $99

There, you just built a lower for $179 Versus the $150 that the PC is going to run you from frontier which is the cheapest.

You also don't have to worry about them throwing a commercial stock on a Mil-spec tube and calling it "good enough" fitment for them. They have been a bit shady and for the couple of ounces you save, going with an aluminum will outlast your plastic lower hands down. There just isn't a comparison.

bartt
05-08-2011, 9:59 AM
Hahahaha I don't know yet. I'm not gonna start looking until next month.

I don't want to buy a used rifle because I don't know if the FFL I use will require me to have a second address proof or not (which I don't want to spend the time to get one). I don't want to not be able to buy it and create a hassle for the seller.

Take a drive over to rocklin and check out SacrementoBlackRifle store. You can put your hands on a few rifles there to see what fits you. No one has gone over that aspect yet. Since you're under 21, just get a complete rifle.

Assembling one is fun, and educational but in the end you want to shoot it.
Given a choice between spikes and s&w, go s&w no question.
HTH..

bluebird
05-08-2011, 10:57 AM
Take a drive over to rocklin and check out SacrementoBlackRifle store. You can put your hands on a few rifles there to see what fits you. No one has gone over that aspect yet. Since you're under 21, just get a complete rifle.

Assembling one is fun, and educational but in the end you want to shoot it.
Given a choice between spikes and s&w, go s&w no question.
HTH..

I now figure it'd be the cheapest for me to buy a complete rifle instead of assembling an 80% not only because it's a hassle but also because of the tools I might need to buy to install them.

Also, after yesterday's FIRST EVER range trip at YSA (Thanks to Davis Recreational Marksmanship Society at UC Davis:D), I realize it's impossible for me to live with iron sight (Both of my eyes are -6.00 and -1.75 astigmatism with my shooting eye). My contacts always dry out when I am aiming which is REALLY annoying because they don't really fit my eye perfectly. I tried a Bushnell red dot yesterday and it was easier on my eyes even with both eyes opened (which is what I should do).

Now I'm thinking of going for the cheapest AR possible with a good lower so I can just swap the upper out in the future. The M&P 15 sport doesn't have a forward assist nor a dust cover nor a M4 profile barrel(which I hope it's not a big deal?). The only few things I don't like about it are the integrated "enhanced" trigger guard and the M&P logo on the other side of the lower receiver.

Basically, my idea is that if I get a cheap AR I can learn to clean it or field strip it without worrying breaking it. I can also buy a good optic (if I'm crazy enough maybe I can go Aimpoint T1/H1 LOL) and LOTS of ammo (or reload), instead of buying a good rifle and not have money to buy other things else.

From what I've seen on the internet, Spikes Tactical has the cheapest milspec AR (MSRP 799.95 for the ST-15 M4 LE Carbine) among the entry level carbines. I might also consider the mid length version (which is MSRP 809.99) because when I was holding the rifle yesterday I used the "Magpul AFG style" to hold the rifle and I liked it because it gives me a lot more stability. For some reason when I tried to do that on a 7" rail it was a bit uncomfortable because it was too short.

One thing for me to consider is that I need to drive to an FFL to buy and DROS the rifle (and gas is so freaking expensive right now as you all know, although it should be cheaper by June). To also eliminate the FFL transfer fee I prefer buying something that is already IN the shop.

Any more suggestions will be appreciated thanks =) This should probably be my final questions (hopefully) LOL. Thanks everyone and I appreciate it :)

bombadillo
05-08-2011, 11:58 AM
Bluebird, I'd say you're right on track to getting exactly what you want. I did the same thing you are doing now a few years back and was weighing out going a cheap route or complete rifle, build my own, yada yada yada. Anyway, I did all of the above eventually and got a few rifles from a 16, 18, and 20" setup. I still have a 16 and 20 but sold my 18 not too long ago. Optics are definitely what you pay for most times with the exception of primary arms and Bushnell Holosight. Those two are fantastic little optics for the money. As to what you are going to get, go with what you want if you can afford it because if you do it half assed, you're going to end up buying the one you desired anyway somewhere down the road and sell the one you didn't want at a small loss more than likely. The spikes complete for $799 is a killer setup, and will be a great gun to get you in the game.

Field stripping one of these is a joke and seriously there is virtually nothing you can break unless you put some vice grips on the hammer and twist or something. Its really hard to screw one of these guns up and they make it so you can't put the bolt in backwards, and there are only about 6 or so moving parts.

You have the hammer, trigger, bolt/carrier, buffer, and firing pin that floats. These are the easiest things to take care of and when you first get it, run it wet wet wet. This helps break things in a lot easier and will keep your stuff from jamming up as often. Well, anyway hope some of this helps and good luck with what you buy.

bluebird
05-08-2011, 2:18 PM
I believe I've decided on Spike's Tactical ST-15 M4 LE Carbine or ST-15 Mid-length Carbine.

Sorry for making this thread so long LOL. One more question (hopefully), if I want to eliminate the FFL transfer fee (ie. not buying online from factory/online dealer and ship it to FFL), where do you think I can find it around the Davis area? Do I have to look for a dealer that sells Spike's Tactical products? How much should I be paying for the gun (including tax and DROS fee)? Thanks again.

wash
05-08-2011, 2:42 PM
If you find a good FFL, there may be one more option, you might be able to bring a stock, LPK, bullet button and upper, screw on the buffer tube, install the takedown pins, add the bullet button, pop on the upper and DROS it as a complete rifle.

That may save you some money and get around buying a "stripped" lower. Just ask before you show up with the parts, not every FFL will like that idea.

I've never bought complete (for ARs any way), mostly because I've never found exactly what I want on a factory built name brand AR at a reasonable price...

bombadillo
05-08-2011, 3:28 PM
I believe I've decided on Spike's Tactical ST-15 M4 LE Carbine or ST-15 Mid-length Carbine.

Sorry for making this thread so long LOL. One more question (hopefully), if I want to eliminate the FFL transfer fee (ie. not buying online from factory/online dealer and ship it to FFL), where do you think I can find it around the Davis area? Do I have to look for a dealer that sells Spike's Tactical products? How much should I be paying for the gun (including tax and DROS fee)? Thanks again.


People will argue and tell me how I'm the reason Cali is broke and all, but for $800, you're going to pay around $72 for just the tax, $25 for DROS, and the $800 for the gun itself. You just did this for $900 for the gun basically. I do mine from someone like Marksarmory.com or another place that can get you the rifle with BB installed (being that you have to have it anyway unless you go featureless) and have it transfered to a place that charges $50 to do a transfer. Now you're back at $850 and you get to stick it to the man! (Again, flame suit on) Or you could look back at the route I showed you and get the stainless build for around $675 or so plus transfer fee. My local FFL has me do enough transfers that he charges a flat rate of $50 for the whole thing, $25 DROS and $25 dealers fee. You could definitely save some moolah doing that.

NapaPlinker
05-08-2011, 3:36 PM
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm123/BwoodWheeler/bouncingkoreans2.jpg

Charlie50
05-08-2011, 3:50 PM
It the old, Quality Speed or Price pick two.

Seriously, for most of us, not going into battle anytime soon or ever. Most "mid quality" ARs are going to be a good choice. I know we all spent way too much on our particular favorite brand... Daniel Defence, Colt, Stag, etc. and we have a tendency to defend our choice. Because after you can't think yourself a fool spending too much for status and a name. So we defend to the bitter end.

Bang for the buck I'm going to go with DelTon. But get what ever blows your skirt up.

BTW I have AR choices and the Delton has never missed a beat. Maybe just luck of the draw.

Don29palms
05-08-2011, 4:04 PM
CHECK THESE OUT! CLICK HERE! (http://coldhandarms.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=29)

bluebird
05-08-2011, 4:31 PM
It the old, Quality Speed or Price pick two.

Seriously, for most of us, not going into battle anytime soon or ever. Most "mid quality" ARs are going to be a good choice. I know we all spent way too much on our particular favorite brand... Daniel Defence, Colt, Stag, etc. and we have a tendency to defend our choice. Because after you can't think yourself a fool spending too much for status and a name. So we defend to the bitter end.

Bang for the buck I'm going to go with DelTon. But get what ever blows your skirt up.

BTW I have AR choices and the Delton has never missed a beat. Maybe just luck of the draw.

I am going to pick Quality and Price. I can wait.

Sounds like you have an idea of a good FFL around my area. Any suggestions? Thanks.


CHECK THESE OUT! CLICK HERE! (http://coldhandarms.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=29)

Not sure if you are trying to show me the complete kit or the kit without lower. If it's the former, I'm under 21.

Charlie50
05-09-2011, 9:28 AM
You might try Triple A Sports in Vallejo, Aris is a good guy... no BS.

Hammertime
05-09-2011, 2:08 PM
wow, tagged. Lots of great information in here. Thank you all.

morrcarr67
05-09-2011, 2:19 PM
and there you have it.

Man I cant wait to have a kid, just so I can tell him no!
Im gonna tell him he cant do all sorts of stuff, even things I agree with!
I think its the only reason I would want a kid...

My dad taught me to talk just to tell me to shut up. :rofl2:


BTW - It didn't work. :laugh:

evidens83
05-09-2011, 2:47 PM
Del-Ton

FWIW, I used a Del-Ton carbine upper for my very first build. It ran 100% flawless for the entire time I owned it (+2 years). Not a single problem from such a cheap company dont cha think ;)

IIRC, I've seen Del-Ton/RRA AR15s at Turners going for around $700 complete. Check it out I highly reccomend them especially if you're just looking into a quality budget build.

sdearnest1981
05-09-2011, 4:59 PM
I don't think Stag gets enough praise considering its backed by a factory lifetime warranty. I've had mine for almost 3 years and have beaten the living hell out of it in competitions. My cousin was a weapons expert but now is Intel in the Green Beret and bought one right after throwing 500 rounds down range with mine and loves it. People say Stag bolts aren't staked right but that's BS. People say the 1/9 twist isn't as great as 1/7th but I buy cases and that usually means 55 or 62 grainer's, which marry up perfect. People say their uppers aren't to the quality of DD or BCM but that's BS as well.

I feel sorry for someone that comes in here looking for a unbiased opinion but gets one anyways from a bunch of Arm Chair Commando's. Buy Stag, not a damn thing wrong with it!

Sean

evidens83
05-09-2011, 5:11 PM
I don't think Stag gets enough praise considering its backed by a factory lifetime warranty

Oh trust me, it gets plenty. And aint nothing wrong with that :cheers2:

sdearnest1981
05-09-2011, 5:17 PM
Oh trust me, it gets plenty. And aint nothing wrong with that :cheers2:

Then I must not be looking hard enough because all I see is how great BCM and DD is.

evidens83
05-09-2011, 5:22 PM
Kidding me? We have a "How good is Stag?" thread every single week. No joke...

sdearnest1981
05-09-2011, 5:31 PM
I see you live in Oceanside. I'm going to Carlsbad in a couple weeks and heard there is a nice indoor range down there. Do you happen to know the name of it?

evidens83
05-09-2011, 5:33 PM
Iron Sights (http://iron-sights.com/) ;)

sdearnest1981
05-09-2011, 5:36 PM
Thank's man, appreciate it.

bluebird
05-09-2011, 5:45 PM
IIRC, I've seen Del-Ton/RRA AR15s at Turners going for around $700 complete. Check it out I highly reccomend them especially if you're just looking into a quality budget build.

Is that a one time item or do they build it regularly? If it's the former I don't think it will be a good idea since I am not buying the rifle in a month (3 months worst case scenario). I don't want to go to Turners and find out they don't have anything I want when I drove there for 1-2 hours.

cali_armz
05-09-2011, 5:50 PM
delton makes nice, affordable AR rifles

bluebird
05-09-2011, 5:58 PM
delton makes nice, affordable AR rifles

Thanks, but now the main question should be "Where I can find them in stock in a store?" because I don't want to have stupid arguments with the staff over whether I need a "second address proof" or not, since I don't have one and the law does not require it.

I don't want to order a rifle online and find out they want a second proof and I don't have it and I had a down payment on the rifle. I can always ask them before hand but you never know if they'll change their minds.

cali_armz
05-09-2011, 6:10 PM
Thanks, but now the main question should be "Where I can find them in stock in a store?" because I don't want to have stupid arguments with the staff over whether I need a "second address proof" or not, since I don't have one and the law does not require it.

I don't want to order a rifle online and find out they want a second proof and I don't have it and I had a down payment on the rifle. I can always ask them before hand but you never know if they'll change their minds.

man, FFL's are asking for two proofs of residence on a rifle purchase?

thats lame, rifle only requires one proof of residence. id say you might want to call your local FFL dealers and ask if they require one or two. then you could order a delton AR from atlantic, or one of the AR's from riflegear. both are great vendors.

cali_armz
05-09-2011, 6:15 PM
i purchased this exact rifle from atlantic about 8 months ago, and its functioned perfectly.

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/data/default/images/catalog/large/delton.jpg

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct794.aspx

cali_armz
05-09-2011, 6:21 PM
if you look at the page, the add to cart button is available, which means its probably in stock. youd have to call to make sure though

bluebird
05-09-2011, 8:35 PM
man, FFL's are asking for two proofs of residence on a rifle purchase?

thats lame, rifle only requires one proof of residence. id say you might want to call your local FFL dealers and ask if they require one or two. then you could order a delton AR from atlantic, or one of the AR's from riflegear. both are great vendors.

I've never went into any shops before, but I heard that some are (check previous posts in this thread, someone said it I think/ some other threads I read).

Thanks for your advice. I'll be sure to check out these vendors!