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View Full Version : Do you carry a copy of your single-shot exemption DROS?


carnelianbay
05-05-2011, 5:08 PM
If this was already asked then I apologize in advance.

Do any of you carry a copy of your DROS or other paperwork as proof of legality if questioned? Specifically for those AWís that came in under a single-shot exemption?

762.DEFENSE
05-05-2011, 5:15 PM
I don't. I shoot with a handful of LEO's on a regular basis and they seem pretty up to date. For the most part you should carry a copy of the AW/OLL flow chart on your person to avoid range FUD, or LE harassment.

762.DEFENSE
05-05-2011, 5:17 PM
Honestly I doubt most LEOs know half of the guns on the roster. I'm sure they'd be more concerned with "high capacity" magazines, or the manner in which you're carrying the weapon, or your intent.

rromeo
05-05-2011, 5:38 PM
There is no law against possession of an off-roster handgun.

HK Dave
05-05-2011, 5:41 PM
Honestly I doubt most LEOs know half of the guns on the roster. I'm sure they'd be more concerned with "high capacity" magazines, or the manner in which you're carrying the weapon, or your intent.

The vast majority of LEO i know haven't a clue there even is a "high capacity law".

wash
05-05-2011, 5:56 PM
I wouldn't carry that.

Some less than intelligent officer with a hard on for making a gun bust might think it's evidence of manufacturing an unsafe handgun or something.

It's much more important to carry the phone number of a good gun lawyer because the type of cop that will arrest or detain you for a legal gun probably can not be convinced that you have done nothing wrong.

MrPlink
05-05-2011, 8:22 PM
It's much more important to carry the phone number of a good gun lawyer because the type of cop that will arrest or detain you for a legal gun probably can not be convinced that you have done nothing wrong.

yep, this says it all

knowing the laws is crucial so you yourself do not create or operate a firearm in an illegal manner. Citing them to an officer (or giving them a presentation with the AW chart) isnt going to help if the LEO is intent on arresting/detaining.

Gunfighter420
05-05-2011, 8:24 PM
Me and my buddy from high school found each other on Facebook a few months ago. We haven't talked to each other for 24 years. I heard rumors he became a cop from freinds and after we found each other on Facebook he told me he's been with LAPD for over 16 years now. Yesterday we were texting each other about hunting and I sent him a nice pic of my new XDM-9. He said "Oh nice....how much did you pay for it?" I told him "$725". I didn't tell him it was off roster but I did tell him it came with 19 round mags and I blocked them to 10 rounders. I then asked him if he buy's at Proforce in Brea, CA. that only caters to LEO and public service like Firefighters and such at ridiculously low LEO prices. I told him "Man you guys can get Gen4 Glocks starting at $398 brand new over there while we civilian type have to pay over $500 for them!!!". He said "Yeah they have pretty good prices, hey...... if you want just give me the cash and I'll get you one then we can do a transfer after I get it!!! Not once did he mention anything about off roster and I didn't want to. He's a good freind and we had our share of heavy partying back in the day and I sort of feel guilty if I knew something he didn't, OR maybe he does know and knows the loopholes and choose not to tell me about it. Either way I told him "Dude if you did that I'd probably give you a big fat hug!!!! Haha!!" He said "No problem homeboy!!! just let me know when".

So with that little conversation maybe they aren't educated about off list handguns but then maybe he does know and doing it for me as a freind.

1911su16b870
05-05-2011, 8:32 PM
IMO no need to.

tonelar
05-05-2011, 8:43 PM
The percentage of LEOs who are knowledgable about the nuances of CA gun laws is probably = the percentage of California gunnys who are knowledgable about the nuances of CA gun laws.

I own too many off roster pistols to bother keeping track of dros papers etc.
Definitely have the flowchart handy and (if youre prone to getting the attention of local LEOs) def have the number of a good attorney.

carnelianbay
05-05-2011, 9:39 PM
Thanks for the advise. My question comes in the wake of comments I’ve read about officer patrols on BLM land. Amazing what you can find with the search function once you register :)

I’ve never been questioned on BLM land so I don’t know what to expect. I doubt I’d show the flow chart because if it gets to the point where I have to explain it I’m probably in for a long haul regardless.

chad68
05-05-2011, 10:14 PM
I don't carry a copy on mine. I would rather make the cop look stupid in a courtroom, than one on one.

JaeFern
05-05-2011, 10:33 PM
What's the point? What if you didn't get it through a single shot exemption? What if you bought it from an LEO or something? I don't see a need to carry it.

Baconator
05-05-2011, 10:47 PM
Thanks for the advise. My question comes in the wake of comments Iíve read about officer patrols on BLM land. Amassing what you can find with the search function once you register :)

Iíve never been questioned on BLM land so I donít know what to expect. I doubt Iíd show the flow chart because if it gets to the point where I have to explain it Iím probably in for a long haul regardless.

There would have to be a law on the books making it illegal to modify your weapon in the way that it is modified from single shot to normal. There is no such law.

G1500
05-05-2011, 10:54 PM
Me and my buddy from high school found each other on Facebook a few months ago. We haven't talked to each other for 24 years. I heard rumors he became a cop from freinds and after we found each other on Facebook he told me he's been with LAPD for over 16 years now. Yesterday we were texting each other about hunting and I sent him a nice pic of my new XDM-9. He said "Oh nice....how much did you pay for it?" I told him "$725". I didn't tell him it was off roster but I did tell him it came with 19 round mags and I blocked them to 10 rounders. I then asked him if he buy's at Proforce in Brea, CA. that only caters to LEO and public service like Firefighters and such at ridiculously low LEO prices. I told him "Man you guys can get Gen4 Glocks starting at $398 brand new over there while we civilian type have to pay over $500 for them!!!". He said "Yeah they have pretty good prices, hey...... if you want just give me the cash and I'll get you one then we can do a transfer after I get it!!! Not once did he mention anything about off roster and I didn't want to. He's a good freind and we had our share of heavy partying back in the day and I sort of feel guilty if I knew something he didn't, OR maybe he does know and knows the loopholes and choose not to tell me about it. Either way I told him "Dude if you did that I'd probably give you a big fat hug!!!! Haha!!" He said "No problem homeboy!!! just let me know when".

So with that little conversation maybe they aren't educated about off list handguns but then maybe he does know and doing it for me as a freind.

Good friend, but all kinds of bad there.

Fishslayer
05-05-2011, 11:22 PM
If that was the case everybody with an older S&W revolver would need paperwork...

Cyc Wid It
05-06-2011, 12:16 AM
The OP says "AWs". You can't have any AW's...

MontClaire
05-06-2011, 12:37 AM
I don't carry a copy on mine. I would rather make the cop look stupid in a courtroom, than one on one.

This Plus 1! The man said it right.;):thumbsup:

Cokebottle
05-06-2011, 1:02 AM
There is no law against possession of an off-roster handgun.
This.

There are more legal ways to come into possession of an off-roster handgun than there are illegal ways.

Legal: PPT, imported as new CA resident, owned before it fell off of the roster, single shot exemption...

Illegal: Manufacture or purchase from a dealer.

G1500
05-06-2011, 1:48 AM
This.

There are more legal ways to come into possession of an off-roster handgun than there are illegal ways.

Legal: PPT, imported as new CA resident, owned before it fell off of the roster, single shot exemption...

Illegal: Manufacture or purchase from a dealer.

You can manufacture an off roster pistol as long as it is in exempt form when you manufacture it. Perfect example, AR pistol. Pretty much one of the only examples though.

Swift Justice
05-06-2011, 8:55 AM
In my experience, the average beat cop is not going to take the time to read anything that looks like a legal document that you give them (except for a copy of a restraining order), so I don't bother.

loose_electron
05-06-2011, 9:32 AM
Dude - that's called a "straw purchase" and could cost him his job and land you in jail.:mad:

If you want to do that legally, he has to purchase it and then re-sell it to you at a later date. :D

Now, if you loan him some money because hes a little short till his next paycheck, and he buys a gun, quickly doesn't like it, and sells it to you shortly after he buys it, then that's legal. ;)

Keep it legal, just got to learn to dance around the law properly and legally. :eek:

Me and my buddy from high school found each other on Facebook a few months ago. We haven't talked to each other for 24 years. I heard rumors he became a cop from freinds and after we found each other on Facebook he told me he's been with LAPD for over 16 years now. Yesterday we were texting each other about hunting and I sent him a nice pic of my new XDM-9. He said "Oh nice....how much did you pay for it?" I told him "$725". I didn't tell him it was off roster but I did tell him it came with 19 round mags and I blocked them to 10 rounders. I then asked him if he buy's at Proforce in Brea, CA. that only caters to LEO and public service like Firefighters and such at ridiculously low LEO prices. I told him "Man you guys can get Gen4 Glocks starting at $398 brand new over there while we civilian type have to pay over $500 for them!!!". He said "Yeah they have pretty good prices, hey...... if you want just give me the cash and I'll get you one then we can do a transfer after I get it!!! Not once did he mention anything about off roster and I didn't want to. He's a good freind and we had our share of heavy partying back in the day and I sort of feel guilty if I knew something he didn't, OR maybe he does know and knows the loopholes and choose not to tell me about it. Either way I told him "Dude if you did that I'd probably give you a big fat hug!!!! Haha!!" He said "No problem homeboy!!! just let me know when".

So with that little conversation maybe they aren't educated about off list handguns but then maybe he does know and doing it for me as a freind.

rromeo
05-06-2011, 11:22 AM
You can manufacture an off roster pistol as long as it is in exempt form when you manufacture it. Perfect example, AR pistol. Pretty much one of the only examples though.
The other that comes to mind is a 1911.


That brings up something that has probably been answered thousands of times. An off roster frame cannot be imported in a non-exempt configuration. Can a rostered frame be imported, or must it be a complete handgun?

jdberger
05-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Dude - that's called a "straw purchase" and could cost him his job and land you in jail.:mad:

If you want to do that legally, he has to purchase it and then re-sell it to you at a later date. :D

Now, if you loan him some money because hes a little short till his next paycheck, and he buys a gun, quickly doesn't like it, and sells it to you shortly after he buys it, then that's legal. ;)

Keep it legal, just got to learn to dance around the law properly and legally. :eek:

No. It's not.

The transfer would be a PPT - the transferee would have to DROS the gun just as if he'd bought it new.

There's no law suggesting that an LEO cannot buy and then transfer a non-rostered handgun to a non-LEO. I would suggest that making a habit of it is a bad idea, though.

Cokebottle
05-06-2011, 11:46 AM
The other that comes to mind is a 1911.

That brings up something that has probably been answered thousands of times. An off roster frame cannot be imported in a non-exempt configuration. Can a rostered frame be imported, or must it be a complete handgun?
Must be complete.

A "rostered frame" does not exist... and it's one of the more stupid aspects of the law, since the frame IS the legal firearm.

Cokebottle
05-06-2011, 11:52 AM
You can manufacture an off roster pistol as long as it is in exempt form when you manufacture it. Perfect example, AR pistol. Pretty much one of the only examples though.
My point was simply that there are only 2 ways to obtain one illegally, and at least 4 legal ways. No reason to carry any paperwork.

Of course, there are legal ways to handle even the two illegal ways, but I wanted to stick to 100% clear legal pathways that no gun shop employee in the state would be able to say "That's illegal!"

Not everyone believes that home-building from an 80% does not constitute a "zip gun" or manufacturing without a license, and not everyone believes that the single shot exemption is a legal exemption.... and for those people, carrying your DROS paperwork is not going to make a difference. Better to let them think that you got it through one of the non-controversial pathways than to get into a debate.

rromeo
05-06-2011, 12:06 PM
Must be complete.

A "rostered frame" does not exist... and it's one of the more stupid aspects of the law, since the frame IS the legal firearm.

You understand my question though? A frame of a rostered pistol, say a 3rd Gen Glock.

That sucks. Why would I think the law isn't stupid?

Cokebottle
05-06-2011, 12:15 PM
You understand my question though? A frame of a rostered pistol, say a 3rd Gen Glock.

That sucks. Why would I think the law isn't stupid?
I agree 100%.

The other stupid thing (and perhaps a legal angle to throw out the roster) is that the law states that a gun that is functionally equivalent to a rostered gun is also legal... yet the bi-tone XD45 is not on the roster (it was submitted for testing after the mag disconnect requirement was enacted), and by definition, no new 1911 models may be added because they lack both the LCI and mag disconnect.

SupportGeek
05-06-2011, 12:33 PM
No. It's not.

The transfer would be a PPT - the transferee would have to DROS the gun just as if he'd bought it new.

There's no law suggesting that an LEO cannot buy and then transfer a non-rostered handgun to a non-LEO. I would suggest that making a habit of it is a bad idea, though.

Yes, it is a straw purchase from what Ive read.

That cop suggested the poster GIVE him the money to buy the pistol, THAT is the straw purchase, not the later PPT, that part is perfectly legal.

Now if his cop friend had $400 of his own money to buy the gun, then later did a PPT where the purchaser pays the $400 for the gun (plus PPT/DROS) to the cop because he doesnt want it anymore, thats all perfectly legal.
Its a stupid rule and wouldnt be an issue if there was no damn "safe handgun" list.

G1500
05-06-2011, 12:46 PM
Yes, it is a straw purchase from what Ive read.

That cop suggested the poster GIVE him the money to buy the pistol, THAT is the straw purchase, not the later PPT, that part is perfectly legal.

Now if his cop friend had $400 of his own money to buy the gun, then later did a PPT where the purchaser pays the $400 for the gun (plus PPT/DROS) to the cop because he doesnt want it anymore, thats all perfectly legal.
Its a stupid rule and wouldnt be an issue if there was no damn "safe handgun" list.

I believe the way it is read to be a straw purchase. Now, it is all in how it is worded, as you said, if the friend buys it and decides he doesn't want it, or want's to try a different model, then he is free to sell it to whoever he wants who is legally allowed to own a pistol. But specifically giving someone cash to buy something for you and having it transferred is a straw purchase. Just because the party is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm does not make it ok to do.

ap3572001
05-06-2011, 12:50 PM
If this was already asked then I apologize in advance.

Do any of you carry a copy of your DROS or other paperwork as proof of legality if questioned? Specifically for those AW’s that came in under a single-shot exemption?

Don't want to sound stupid.....But what is a single-shot exemption? And why would I want to carry it?

Cokebottle
05-06-2011, 12:55 PM
A gun may be legally purchased as a gift.
A "straw purchase" is when the question on the 4473 (Are you the actual purchaser) is not answered truthfully.

A cop can not legally walk into a shop, buy a gun, and then walk across the street a PPT it to a non-exempt person. That is two issues, the straw purchase, and the officer is acting as an unlicensed dealer.

All of the ;) is BS. While the violations of the law may never be discovered, the violations still took place.
It's the same with all of the ;) in the high cap threads, and it needs to stop.
This forum is monitored by the BATFE, DOJ, and groups like the LCAV and the Brady bunch. Talk like this only draws attention that could be exploded in the media "Gun owners find yet another loophole in reasonable gun control laws!"

Cokebottle
05-06-2011, 1:01 PM
Don't want to sound stupid.....But what is a single-shot exemption? And why would I want to carry it?
There are a number of exemptions to the roster. These were put in place in exchange for support for the law from "Cowboy" groups like SASS.

A couple of the exemptions are:

Single action revolver, cylinder capacity at least 5 rounds, barrel length at least 3", overall length at least 7.5"

Single-shot, minimum barrel length 6", minimum overall length 10.5"

Example: The RIA 1911 9mm is not on the roster. If the dealer (must be an 07FFL) installs a zero-round "sled" in the magwell and locks it in place with a 1" long grip screw, and replaces the barrel with one that is over 6" long, and long enough to bring the gun's overall length to at least 10.5", that pistol is no longer subject to the roster.

After purchase, the buyer (or his gunsmith) remove the sled and reinstall the original barrel. The gun has been modified into a semiautomatic configuration, identical to the non-rostered 9mm.
This act is no different than purchasing the RIA 38-super, which is on the roster, and replacing the barrel and other parts needed to convert it to 9mm.

stix213
05-06-2011, 1:08 PM
If this was already asked then I apologize in advance.

Do any of you carry a copy of your DROS or other paperwork as proof of legality if questioned? Specifically for those AWís that came in under a single-shot exemption?

AW's are a felony. Buying a firearm under a single shot exemption doesn't exempt you from the AW laws.

If this is an AR pistol for example, you'd have to run it only with 10 round magazines and using a bullet button, which would make it NOT an AW.

tacticalcity
05-06-2011, 1:10 PM
Nobody who you are going to be having face time with knows about, understands, or even cares about single shot exemptions or even the handgun roster itself. If they question you at all, which is highly unlikely unless you are already on your way to jail, it will be whether or not you are SB23 compliant or not.

Single shot exemptions are about getting around the handgun roster that FFLs are required to comply with. The department in the DOJ that regulates FFLs care about it only to the extent that FFLs are following the rules. The rest of law enforcement is not worried about enforcing it. Odds are they are not even aware of it.

Focus on staying SB23 compliant. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be.

G60
05-06-2011, 1:39 PM
I don't even have a copy of my DROS.

carnelianbay
05-06-2011, 2:41 PM
AW's are a felony. Buying a firearm under a single shot exemption doesn't exempt you from the AW laws.

If this is an AR pistol for example, you'd have to run it only with 10 round magazines and using a bullet button, which would make it NOT an AW.

Thanks for correcting my terminology. I should have said "AR Pistol".

davek8s
05-06-2011, 6:46 PM
Thanks for the advise. My question comes in the wake of comments Iíve read about officer patrols on BLM land. Amassing what you can find with the search function once you register :)

Iíve never been questioned on BLM land so I donít know what to expect. I doubt Iíd show the flow chart because if it gets to the point where I have to explain it Iím probably in for a long haul regardless.

I was on BLM land south of King City once. I was shooting my GSG-5 and 10/22. A department of fish and game officer rolled up on me. He asked a lot of questions about my guns and hi cap mags. In the end he told me to be safe and clean up. Never asked to see any paper work for guns.

12voltguy
05-06-2011, 7:59 PM
I keep the org dros on my ar15 pistol & mpa mac 10-45 in my wallet, haven't takin it out to shoot, but have it there, going to get those 2 on my ccw, got a 5.7 upper for ar & 9mm, indoor range for ccw in my county & no shooting 5.56 indoors,lol
can't see them asking to many questions about is ar pistol legal if it's on my CCW:D