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View Full Version : Unmarked "CMMG" 20" upper..... pics


missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:03 AM
**Nicely Resolved**

So, I have been looking for a CMMG 20" govt profile upper for a while now. Battle Born Arms in NV just had a bunch hit their website 4/21. They have them advertised as "CMMG govt 20" upper", and last time I checked, CMMG only makes ONE style of 20" upper.

First, this IS NOT govt profile under the handguards, it's either HBAR, or medium profile. I can't find a medium or heavy profile 20" barrel OR upper on CMMG's website.
Second, there are NO barrel markings ANYWHERE under the handguards. CMMG has always had the caliber and material marking under the handguards.

Third... EVERY CMMG has had a Cerro Forge keyhole forge mark on the upper.... This one has the Brass Forging "square" forge mark.

Fourth, CMMG uppers usually have a "M" on the front of the upper next to the gas tube opening.

Fifth, EVERY CMMG I have seen has a SILVER crush washer behind the FH, NOT black.

What do you guys think this is?

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/c88470f4.jpg
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/271b8f71.jpg
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/75fa7a11.jpg
http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/2aa9ef6b.jpg

Lead Waster
05-05-2011, 11:06 AM
You should ask Battle Born Arms the exact same questions.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:12 AM
You should ask Battle Born Arms the exact same questions.

Ya, they are closed for Cinco de Mayo.... so I get to stare at this thing for a day wondering what in the hell they sent me.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 11:12 AM
How about you ask CMMG if this is something they would have made. My CMMG had a cardinal forge mark. I have seen Colts with the square too. My ASA had a keyhole mark.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 11:13 AM
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/govt.shtml

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:14 AM
How about you ask CMMG if this is something they would have made. My CMMG had a cardinal forge mark. I have seen Colts with the square too. My ASA had a keyhole mark.

The receivers can very I suppose. It's the medium profile barrel with NO stamp that bothers me.... CMMG always stamps under the handguard, and as I can see from their website- does not make a heavy or medium contour 20" barrel or upper.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:16 AM
http://www.ar15barrels.com/prod/govt.shtml

Exactly. This barrel is not govt profile.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 11:18 AM
The receivers can very I suppose. It's the medium profile barrel with NO stamp that bothers me.... CMMG always stamps under the handguard, and as I can see from their website- does not make a heavy or medium contour 20" barrel or upper.

the no mark would raise my eye brow as well. I know some Armalite/Eagles have no mark, I know ASA, DTi, M1S, Olympic and the deadly 3 have HAD no mark in the past. Most of the time all manufactures mark now, since they know everyone wants to see something stamped on the barrel.

I would want CMMG to say, it was possible since at one time they used un-marked barrels with that profile. At that point I would consider it one of theirs, just older then I expected to buy.

cmace22
05-05-2011, 11:31 AM
Could this have possibility been a special run by CMMG for them.

I'd give CMMG a call.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:37 AM
I can't get anyone on the phone at CMMG... so I sent them a detailed e-mail asking the questions.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:39 AM
I'm mostly pissed because it's not govt profile... I DID NOT want a heavier rifle.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 11:48 AM
Official word from CMMG:

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/8dac2044.jpg

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 11:50 AM
I'm mostly pissed because it's not govt profile... I DID NOT want a heavier rifle.

Talk to the seller to see if they will trade you.

Dhena81
05-05-2011, 11:55 AM
I'd get my money back. The shipper could have made a mistake I had a company send me a rifle in free state condition on accident they forgot to put the CA compliance parts in.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 11:57 AM
READ THE WHOLE THREAD PLEASE... LOOKS like these are or atleast could very well be CMMG no matter what a person at CMMG said.

If you paid by credit card, stop the funds. fraud it. Use the message from CMMG as proof of fraud. FORCE the seller to either provide you with what you paid for...THEIR dollar, not yours.

So shipping the new upper is on their dime.
Shipping the upper you have is on their dime.
Nothing is shipped to them, unless they give a 100% refund including shipping cost. (both shipping costs)

do it now.

The CC will charge back the money and hold on to it. When they sign for the upper back, that is proof you get your money back...so signature required on shipping it back.

If they want to handle with by making it right..they ship FIRST. You get the new upper and ship the old upper back to them in the same box. In that box will be the new shipping label postage paid.

mrvash
05-05-2011, 12:01 PM
If you paid by credit card, stop the funds. fraud it. Use the message from CMMG as proof of fraud. FORCE the seller to either provide you with what you paid for...THEIR dollar, not yours.

So shipping the new upper is on their dime.
Shipping the upper you have is on their dime.
Nothing is shipped to them, unless they give a 100% refund including shipping cost. (both shipping costs)

do it now.

The CC will charge back the money and hold on to it. When they sign for the upper back, that is proof you get your money back...so signature required on shipping it back.

If they want to handle with by making it right..they ship FIRST. You get the new upper and ship the old upper back to them in the same box. In that box will be the new shipping label postage paid.

+1

I would call your CC right now and do exactly what this man has stated.

shadow65
05-05-2011, 12:08 PM
Never mind, I thought I was in the Rimfire forum

a1fabweld
05-05-2011, 12:27 PM
I've had about 6 CMMG uppers over the last 4 years and every one of mine had barrel stampings with "CMMG", twist rate, and caliber. All had keyhole marked uppers. I wouldn't worry about the crush washer though. I just received 2 stainless 18" uppers from them a few weeks ago. They were marked as I stated above. I could be wrong, but I though that at one time they offered their 20" barrels in medium contour. Good luck.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 12:42 PM
I've had about 6 CMMG uppers over the last 4 years and every one of mine had barrel stampings with "CMMG", twist rate, and caliber. All had keyhole marked uppers. I wouldn't worry about the crush washer though. I just received 2 stainless 18" uppers from them a few weeks ago. They were marked as I stated above. I could be wrong, but I though that at one time they offered their 20" barrels in medium contour. Good luck.

Without a stamping, I don't even know if this is .223, or 5.56.

Sgt. Slaughter
05-05-2011, 1:02 PM
Battle born arms is obviously a reputable business run by a hard working american with sound values, I'm sure he'll respond to this thread and sort all of this out.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 1:18 PM
HOLD UP...just got my CMMG M4 upper and guess what....

yes the barrel is marked,

the crush washer is BLACK

the upper is a square.


This was ordered through Midway USA by a buddy of mine, which as you know is a major retailer and not one to screw people over. I just got the package and we will be building his AR15 this weekend.

So I guess CMMG does use square roll marks and Black washers. the barrel is marked though with electro-etching.
PICS TO FOLLOW



http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/2530/shawnsmd.th.jpg
(http://img560.imageshack.us/i/shawnsmd.jpg/)

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3118/shawnscmmgrollmark.th.jpg
(http://img18.imageshack.us/i/shawnscmmgrollmark.jpg/)

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/9376/shawnscmmg.th.jpg (http://img542.imageshack.us/i/shawnscmmg.jpg/)

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 1:18 PM
http://www.battlebornarms.com/product_info.php?products_id=606

BattleBornArms
05-05-2011, 1:32 PM
wow, first search by google and i mysteriously found this thread lol
no need to worry or file fraud charges
i just responded to the email and will HAPPILY refund the money.

I was told by my distributor that they were from CMMG. Im by no means an AR15 expert so i just kinda take his word for that sorta thing. I will have to ask him directly about this, and i promise i will get you an answer.

I was told that the difference between RSRs CMMG uppers and the ones im getting are that the barrels are not stamped. It saved the guy who im buying them from money by not having the stamp. He buys them in bulk and i get them a hair cheaper than RSR and that savings is passed along to people who buy them. Once again, im not an AR15 expert, and only going by what i was told by my distributor, so give me some time to ask him directly before anyone goes off the wall thinking that we are trying to defraud people.

also, when i bought the uppers, i was told they were government profile. I didnt even pull them out of the bag to see that they were anything more than 20 inches and complete uppers.

i will happily refund your money - please send it back and you will get refunded as soon as i get it.

I can assure you that we are not running a shady operation. We are small, and just getting started, and im currently running the shop by myself so the website doesnt ever seem to get updated much because im always busy with customers in the shop. That is why the website only has a few items on it, and not because we are trying to scam anyone.


and i do not have the shop shut down for cinco de mayo, i have the shop shut down cause im having outpatient surgery today and i have nobody to mind the shop while they cut on me.



My appologies to Mr. Ehlers, and no worries, i will be happy to refund your money.



Best regards

Mike

BattleBornArms
05-05-2011, 1:39 PM
and a quick search turns up that CMMG has used square forge marks on there uppers

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=145&t=182671


im still waiting for the distributor to email me. Im heading to docs office now, and will update when i get back if i have an answer

themailman
05-05-2011, 1:43 PM
stand up move by battle born arms!

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 1:44 PM
I say these are CMMG uppers, with non-marked barrels.

Joe
05-05-2011, 1:45 PM
^^ Sounds like the buyer will be taken care of

Joe
05-05-2011, 1:46 PM
I say these are CMMG uppers, with non-marked barrels.

That's probably what it is

Z.1
05-05-2011, 2:05 PM
Glad to see BattleBorn's response on this. I absolutely love seeing merchants respond directly to customers here on calguns. Seems like aside from this confusion, I would have no qualms dealing with them.

NorCalDustin
05-05-2011, 2:10 PM
Could this have possibility been a special run by CMMG for them.

I'd give CMMG a call.

Same...

thrillhouse700
05-05-2011, 2:14 PM
Kudos to battleborn, good luck with the cutting. Hope everything comes out for both parties.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 2:27 PM
Ya, got the e-mail, sounds logical on his part. Sounds like an honest mistake. I will say this though.... CMMG does not make a medium profile 20" barrel though..... 20" are Govt only from them. So who knows what kind of barrel it is, or what the true specs are. IMO, ALL barrels should at least be stamped with chamber type, and twist rate.

762.DEFENSE
05-05-2011, 2:53 PM
I just checked my CMMG to confirm: I also have the keyhole marking on my upper receiver, and it specifies what the the twist rate is, with CMMG's name in front.

Sorry to hear you got the short end of the stick with this vendor.

CSACANNONEER
05-05-2011, 3:02 PM
I just checked my CMMG to confirm: I also have the keyhole marking on my upper receiver, and it specifies what the the twist rate is, with CMMG's name in front.

Sorry to hear you got the short end of the stick with this vendor.

Huh? It sure doesn't appear that way to me. I suggest a little reading comprehension course before posting again.

motorwerks
05-05-2011, 3:15 PM
Woot another Calgunner done right but the powers of the interwebz!

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 3:19 PM
I just checked my CMMG to confirm: I also have the keyhole marking on my upper receiver, and it specifies what the the twist rate is, with CMMG's name in front.

Sorry to hear you got the short end of the stick with this vendor.

Well, I'm only out one way shipping...... I can live with that. Looks like I'm going to just buy a CMMG upper receiver from CD, and a Sabre 20" barrel from PK. I will build my own.

docsmileyface
05-05-2011, 3:55 PM
CMMG use to offer all kinds of barrel profiles, including a medcon 20" rifle - in fact, I can't think of any mfg who offered a medcon 20" besides CMMG.

mlevans66
05-05-2011, 4:00 PM
Wow, epic story, hope it jas a happy ending.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 4:01 PM
CMMG use to offer all kinds of barrel profiles, including a medcon 20" rifle - in fact, I can't think of any mfg who offered a medcon 20" besides CMMG.

Well, if the website would have said "MedCon", I would not be in this predicament, because I would not have bought it in the first place...... I don't want the extra weight of a MedCon..... There is a significant weight difference between MedCon and Govt due to the long length of the barrel. CMMG may have offered a MedCon once before.... but it's not offered on their website anymore.

sleepr66
05-05-2011, 4:05 PM
+1 for battleborn for actively approaching the problem, mistakes always happen. Next time im in the market for a firearm, ill keep them in mind.

a1fabweld
05-05-2011, 8:24 PM
I missed the boat when CMMG had 20" Med-Con barrels. I kick myself for not buying a few.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 9:02 PM
I found ONE marking on the barrel...... It's a "7" right infront of the barrel extension. I wonder if that means 1/7, and if so, what company marks their barrels like that. I would still like to know EXACTALY what it's chambered for, .223, or 5.56. If I
could prove that this is a real CMMG MedCon barrel, I would just keep the damn thing.

http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd451/dehlers1/40aa0eeb.jpg

motorwerks
05-05-2011, 9:49 PM
+1 for battleborn for actively approaching the problem, mistakes always happen. Next time im in the market for a firearm, ill keep them in mind.

Yup! :cheers2:

bombadillo
05-05-2011, 10:05 PM
Marksarmory.com for cmmg uppers. Either there or firearms for me.

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 10:08 PM
Marksarmory.com for cmmg uppers. Either there or firearms for me.

I have bought a complete factory CMMG M4 14.5" from Marks, and a CMMG upper.

bjl333
05-05-2011, 10:21 PM
IIRC the CMMG non-marked barrels have a 1 year warranty, the marked barrels with the WASP finish has a lifetime warranty!

missiontrails
05-05-2011, 10:33 PM
IIRC the CMMG non-marked barrels have a 1 year warranty, the marked barrels with the WASP finish has a lifetime warranty!

I had one WASP barrel, and it was clearly marked. I also have had around 4 midlength and carbine 4150 CMMG barrels, and they were ALL marked clearly.

Redchevyman
05-05-2011, 10:49 PM
I will have some new Del-ton 20" Government profile uppers available next week. I can give you a break on one if you want. PM me for details.

This barrel assembly has a 20" barrel with Government profile, 1x9 twist, CAR handguards with single heat shields, and A2 Flash Hider.
Barrel:

Chrome Moly Vanadium
M4 Feed Ramps
20" Length
1x9 Twist
A2 Flash Hider
Manganese Phosphated
Phosphated under Front Sight Base
Taper Pins on A2 Front Sight Base
Threaded Muzzle
Government Profile

Chamber:

5.56 X 45 mm

Bolt And Carrier:

Phosphated 8620 Steel Carrier Assembly
Carpenter 158 Bolt MP Tested
Heat Treated and Plated
Mil-Spec
Chrome Lined Carrier Interior
Carrier Key - chrome lined, attached with Grade 8 Screws
Properly Staked & Sealed Gas Key

Handguards:

Standard Length
Aluminum Delta Ring
Single Heat Shield

Upper Receiver:

Forged 7075 T6 Aluminum
A3 Flat Top With M4 Feed Ramps
Hard Coat Anodized
Mil-Spec
Ejection Port Cover and Round Forward Assist
Right Hand Ejection
Bore's surface is coated with dry film lube, over the anodized surface

Interfan
05-05-2011, 11:44 PM
I have dealt with a lot of companies and can say that CMMG is total ****. I made the mistake of buying a "two-stage" trigger from them. I didn't break in two stages, but would either light strike or fire unexpected bursts. Totally unpredictable POS.

After an incident at the range where an off-duty FBI agent witnessed burst fire from a non-NFA firearm and a very long discussion about malfunctions versus manufacturing an illegal machine gun, and a bit of horsetrading that kept me out of legal problems; I went home and called CMMG to inform them of the problem.

They told me that they shipped a few batches (not just a few units) of defective triggers and would issue a refund if I would return it. I shipped it back to them the same day.

Six weeks later and after a few phone calls about the refund, I got a personal check from one of the owners for $50 and a coupon (where trigger is spelled "trigre" and customer is spelled "constumer". A lot of care went in on that one) good for $50 off another trigger. This didn't add up to the $140 total for the first trigger as promised, and they never returned any calls or emails to explain why. It looks pretty pathetic.

A quality company runs its front office the same as its shop floor. CMMG runs both like ****. Your "fake" CMMG is probably better than the real thing.

missiontrails
05-06-2011, 12:27 AM
I just ordered the real deal from Ten Percent Firearms......this time with a lightweight barrel, and correct barrel marks: CMMG MPC 5.56 NATO 1/7

BattleBornArms
05-06-2011, 6:30 AM
Ok, got a reply

sorry i didnt respond yesterday, the anestesia they gave me was a bit more powerful than i expected it would be and when i got home i crashed.


Im being told that they are in fact CMMG uppers built under contract for my distributor. It has been confirmed that the barrels were not stamped to save money. I can buy them cheaper than i can from RSR partly because of this feature, and that allows me to sell them for a bit cheaper than i would from the ones bought from RSR.

the government profile error is MINE. i misunderstood my distributor, and i appologize for that.


Either way, i will be more than happy to refund your entire amount if you send it back, and i appologize for sending you the wrong thing in the mail.




I have shot with many Cal Gunners in the past, many of you guys have attended our Vegas machine gun shoots.
I can assure everyone here that any Cal Gunner (or anybody for that matter) who buys product from us will be taken care of properly should they find they are not happy with what they purchased. Customer service is all i have to offer because i certainly can't compete with the big guys on much of anything else.


Sorry for any inconveniences, and i will change our website to reflect the difference in the govt. profile, and contact the other customers who bought them when i get to work today. Unfortunately i have sold a bunch, but this is the first complaint ive heard.



Best


Mike

shark92651
05-06-2011, 6:56 AM
We have seen unmarked barrels on complete CMMG uppers before, that shipped to us straight from CMMG. I have a 20" CMMG MedCon barrel on one of my personal guns and I love it.

missiontrails
05-06-2011, 6:58 AM
Ok, got a reply

sorry i didnt respond yesterday, the anestesia they gave me was a bit more powerful than i expected it would be and when i got home i crashed.


Im being told that they are in fact CMMG uppers built under contract for my distributor. It has been confirmed that the barrels were not stamped to save money. I can buy them cheaper than i can from RSR partly because of this feature, and that allows me to sell them for a bit cheaper than i would from the ones bought from RSR.

the government profile error is MINE. i misunderstood my distributor, and i appologize for that.


Either way, i will be more than happy to refund your entire amount if you send it back, and i appologize for sending you the wrong thing in the mail.




I have shot with many Cal Gunners in the past, many of you guys have attended our Vegas machine gun shoots.
I can assure everyone here that any Cal Gunner (or anybody for that matter) who buys product from us will be taken care of properly should they find they are not happy with what they purchased. Customer service is all i have to offer because i certainly can't compete with the big guys on much of anything else.


Sorry for any inconveniences, and i will change our website to reflect the difference in the govt. profile, and contact the other customers who bought them when i get to work today. Unfortunately i have sold a bunch, but this is the first complaint ive heard.



Best


Mike

Sounds good Mike. I would also ask the distributor for the specs on those barrels and also list that on your site. CMMG has also built unmarked uppers for Fire For Effect (FFE), and those have also been less expensive uppers with 4140 steel and 1/9 twist. For the record, this upper looked to be good quality, the number "7" stamped on the barrel could mean 1/7, but it's the weight factor that excludes me..... this rifle that I'm finishing was intended to be lightweight. Also, having no exact caliber marking on the barrel tends to make people nervous, especially if they are .223 and people try to run 5.56 Ball loads through it.

a1fabweld
05-06-2011, 6:59 AM
I have dealt with a lot of companies and can say that CMMG is total ****. I made the mistake of buying a "two-stage" trigger from them. I didn't break in two stages, but would either light strike or fire unexpected bursts. Totally unpredictable POS.

After an incident at the range where an off-duty FBI agent witnessed burst fire from a non-NFA firearm and a very long discussion about malfunctions versus manufacturing an illegal machine gun, and a bit of horsetrading that kept me out of legal problems; I went home and called CMMG to inform them of the problem.

They told me that they shipped a few batches (not just a few units) of defective triggers and would issue a refund if I would return it. I shipped it back to them the same day.

Six weeks later and after a few phone calls about the refund, I got a personal check from one of the owners for $50 and a coupon (where trigger is spelled "trigre" and customer is spelled "constumer". A lot of care went in on that one) good for $50 off another trigger. This didn't add up to the $140 total for the first trigger as promised, and they never returned any calls or emails to explain why. It looks pretty pathetic.

A quality company runs its front office the same as its shop floor. CMMG runs both like ****. Your "fake" CMMG is probably better than the real thing.

That's unfortunate. I have 2 of their triggers and love them.

BattleBornArms
05-06-2011, 7:07 AM
Send it back, and i will refund

forgot to add earlier that chambers are 556 nato 1/7 twist



Best

Mike

missiontrails
05-06-2011, 7:19 AM
Send it back, and i will refund

forgot to add earlier that chambers are 556 nato 1/7 twist



Best

Mike

I will send it out Fedex today. Thanks for your help. Otherwise your ordering system worked well, and your shipping was FAST... that's just a FYI for everyone else that's on here. You might want to get a banner up on this site.... since you are in NV, shipped items get here fast, and you seem to care about making sure you do the right thing with customer service.

apbrian112
05-06-2011, 8:19 AM
glad to hear that everything is working out. There are always instances of miscommunication or human errors, it's how those mistakes are handled that make the difference. BBA/Mike sounds like a stand up vendor!

mike: hope you get all healed up from whatever surgury you underwent

cannon
05-06-2011, 9:27 AM
Sorry to hear you got the short end of the stick with this vendor.

Far from it.

The buyer is getting his money back quickly and with no problems.

The seller was stand up and a model for other vendors to follow.

All in all I'd buy with confidence from the seller because I know if something weren't right. It would be soon enough and with no hassle.

Interfan
05-06-2011, 9:33 AM
That's unfortunate. I have 2 of their triggers and love them.

It's good that you were lucky and didn't get on of the defective ones. I won't ever deal with tier 2 or lower companies for anything. I now have two Knight's Armament triggers and love them. I also know that KAC will stand behind what they sell and not try to pull something. I would never expect a personal check from C Reed Knight for a refund.

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 9:52 AM
Send it back, and i will refund

forgot to add earlier that chambers are 556 nato 1/7 twist



Best

Mike

they build a 556NATO 1:7 and didn't mark it? The industry is set up the other way. Times are changing I guess.

Its common to NOT see 223REM marked, you are to assume 223REM on any unmarked barrel. You mark 556NATO to tell people its safe to fire that cartridge.

If the industry started assuming an unmarked barrel could fire 556NATO, we would see injuries due to this.

This is a bad trend if its happening. Some seller and barrel manufacturer is going to get someone hurt.

If you are keeping that barrel, I would take it to a gunsmith and have a mold made of the chamber. Prove its safe to fire 556NATO before doing so.

bombadillo
05-06-2011, 10:32 AM
they build a 556NATO 1:7 and didn't mark it? The industry is set up the other way. Times are changing I guess.

Its common to NOT see 223REM marked, you are to assume 223REM on any unmarked barrel. You mark 556NATO to tell people its safe to fire that cartridge.

If the industry started assuming an unmarked barrel could fire 556NATO, we would see injuries due to this.

This is a bad trend if its happening. Some seller and barrel manufacturer is going to get someone hurt.

If you are keeping that barrel, I would take it to a gunsmith and have a mold made of the chamber. Prove its safe to fire 556NATO before doing so.


Nah, take it back and get a marked one just to be sure. I wouldn't spend another penny on it if it wasn't what he wanted, and/or paid for.

thrillhouse700
05-06-2011, 10:35 AM
Mission, you should prob update your first post to reflect the positive outcome. That way, people won't come in and read your first post and say, "Oh I'm never buying from them."

Good job Battle!

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Mission, you should prob update your first post to reflect the positive outcome. That way, people won't come in and read your first post and say, "Oh I'm never buying from them."

Good job Battle!

agreed. CWS got a bad rap as I read the other thread about not getting what you wanted. admittedly CWS did advertise the wrong upper, but it wasn't on purpose.

a1fabweld
05-06-2011, 1:53 PM
It's good that you were lucky and didn't get on of the defective ones. I won't ever deal with tier 2 or lower companies for anything. I now have two Knight's Armament triggers and love them. I also know that KAC will stand behind what they sell and not try to pull something. I would never expect a personal check from C Reed Knight for a refund.

That's too bad. They've still got my business. They've always treated me right.

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 2:08 PM
It's good that you were lucky and didn't get on of the defective ones. I won't ever deal with tier 2 or lower companies for anything. I now have two Knight's Armament triggers and love them. I also know that KAC will stand behind what they sell and not try to pull something. I would never expect a personal check from C Reed Knight for a refund.

My KAC RAS was warped...KAC sent me a new one after I sent it back to them. Your statement has no logic. Your statement is based on FUD, Snobbish reviews and has no bearing on the market place where different brands offer different gear.

FatalKitty
05-06-2011, 2:23 PM
Great work battle arms... browsing your site to see if there is anything I can get from you that I need/don't need :)

Interfan
05-06-2011, 2:58 PM
My KAC RAS was warped...KAC sent me a new one after I sent it back to them.

KAC took care of you. You got a replacement product for what you had. You didn't get shorted and offered a coupon that isn't worth ****.

Your statement has no logic. Your statement is based on FUD, Snobbish reviews and has no bearing on the market place where different brands offer different gear.

Your statement makes no sense. My statements are based on my own experience with CMMG, their service, their products in contrast to my own experience with Knight's and their service, their products. Relating to my experience, CMMG is ****. Sorry, but it is my experience.

Is this some contrived statement that you go to when you are trying to pull something out of your *** when someone doesn't like some company you do business with? Forgive me, but I won't ride CMMG's cock or buy their ****.

As far as snobbishness goes, I want anything I buy to work. I would rather save for a while longer and buy from a tier 1 company than to buy something sooner that is a compromise. You do get what you pay for...

missiontrails
05-06-2011, 3:21 PM
KAC took care of you. You got a replacement product for what you had. You didn't get shorted and offered a coupon that isn't worth ****.



Your statement makes no sense. My statements are based on my own experience with CMMG, their service, their products in contrast to my own experience with Knight's and their service, their products. Relating to my experience, CMMG is ****. Sorry, but it is my experience.

Is this some contrived statement that you go to when you are trying to pull something out of your *** when someone doesn't like some company you do business with? Forgive me, but I won't ride CMMG's cock or buy their ****.

As far as snobbishness goes, I want anything I buy to work. I would rather save for a while longer and buy from a tier 1 company than to buy something sooner that is a compromise. You do get what you pay for...

So...... you are basing your entire opinion of CMMG on one faulty trigger?

LOL

Maybe you can buy one of KAC's top-of-the-line .308 MK series rifles, and see if you can get it to even work on different types of .308 ammo...... except for the one brand they tell you to use...

Interfan
05-06-2011, 4:03 PM
So...... you are basing your entire opinion of CMMG on one faulty trigger?

LOL

Maybe you can buy one of KAC's top-of-the-line .308 MK series rifles, and see if you can get it to even work on different types of .308 ammo...... except for the one brand they tell you to use...

My opinion of CMMG was based on how they treated me. A defective product and crappy service don't tend to foster a great opinion. To promise a refund then short change me doesn't exactly inspire confidence of a first class operation, but rather the impression of a coupla' good 'ol boys working out of a shed someplace.

But hey, it's your money and your time. Do with it what you please.

My MK11 works fine with pretty much anything. The only ammo issue I have had with it was with some Norinco 7.62 that I got back in the '80's. Admittedly, it wasn't stored well and did get some moisture in it which caused some brass corrosion. Other than that, it's been fine. I have used it with any commercial ammo, cheap surplus .308, etc. The accuracy with the el cheapo stuff suffers, but not the function.

Keep it lubed and it will work with anything

Did Gene at LMT get you sorted out with your lower?

dieselpower
05-06-2011, 4:17 PM
^ man you said and I freaking QUOTE,

I won't ever deal with tier 2 or lower companies for anything

that statement tells me all I need to know about your life experiences, your understanding of the AR15 community, and the kind of information or review I would get from you. I would sooner ask a 16 year old playing a video game for advise than you.

Thats just my 2 pennies.

how about cleaning up your language in that post. I want everyone to see what you wrote without your post getting deleted.

21SF
05-06-2011, 4:31 PM
TIER 1 and 2 LMAO :rofl2:

BattleBornArms
05-06-2011, 5:01 PM
just spoke with the distributor on the phone regarding the 556 1/7 and im wrong on that also. He just said that they are 556 1/9 twist.

i was also told that anyone who has question about these being legit CMMG uppers may call CMMG and verify for themselves. ask to speak to Lucas. Tell him that these were purchased by Scott B. and they will confirm.


I am concerned with customer service, but i have no idea how to go about getting a banner. If the management would contact me at mike@battlebornarms.com i would love to learn more.

thanks

Mike

Interfan
05-06-2011, 11:14 PM
^ man you said and I freaking QUOTE,



that statement tells me all I need to know about your life experiences, your understanding of the AR15 community, and the kind of information or review I would get from you. I would sooner ask a 16 year old playing a video game for advise than you.

Thats just my 2 pennies.

how about cleaning up your language in that post. I want everyone to see what you wrote without your post getting deleted.

There is quality and there is ****. This is a fact of life. You can't compare a quality product to one that is built to a pricepoint. Yes, I guess I'm a snob because I think that milspec is better than hillbillyspec. I was young and broke once, but I saved longer and worked more hours to buy a Colt (this isn't a choice anymore, I know). In my experience, I would rather have one quality thing than ten cheap things. This isn't exclusive to firearms.

Rather than explaining how CMMG is so great and they have such quality control, manufacturing prowess, they meet the specs in the Colt TDP, etc.; you choose to make diversionary statements that don't refute my message. You can't refute that quality matters and I don't see how your statements support any real point of view.

As far as advice offered to you: How can anyone advise you? You seem to presume that you know everything.

So I guess that you are the AR15 community organizer? You can organize your community as you see fit. From my experience, I know that there are basically two communities: top tier and then everyone else. But hey, it's your money and you do with it whatever you please.

Regardless of that, I still think CMMG is garbage.

This is my experience with CMMG:
I bought something from them that turned out to be defective.
The defect created a real problem.
They acknowledged that they sent multiple batches of the same defective product out (great QC).
They offered a refund only to short me by basicallly 70% of the value.

That is why I won't do business with them or with companies like them. It is not that they are a small company. There are quite a few small companies out there that have a real commitment to quality.

As far as my language goes, grow up. This isn't Saudi Arabia and you are not the morality police. This is a firearms forum and we should all be adults here. If parents aren't supervising their kid, that really isn't my problem. The censor removes any cursing anyway, so what is your point?

dieselpower
05-07-2011, 12:17 AM
There is quality and there is ****. This is a fact of life. You can't compare a quality product to one that is built to a pricepoint. all true Yes, I guess I'm a snob because I think that milspec is better than hillbillyspec no, you just have no clue what mil-spec is. Take it from me, a 25 year Mil-spec QA Inspector, a Gunsmith, a ISO inspector and engineer... mil-spec is NOT what you think it is..period.. I was young and broke once, but I saved longer and worked more hours to buy a Colt (this isn't a choice anymore, I know). and again..you are wrong. In my experience, I would rather have one quality thing than ten cheap things. This isn't exclusive to firearms. very true, but again mil-spec normally is the cheapest way to do something, a way that only works for a military concept and works against what an LEO or civilian needs. In fact most of the time the freaking WORST thing you can do is ask for or follow a mil-spec as a civilian.

Rather than explaining how CMMG is so great and they have such quality control, manufacturing prowess, they meet the specs in the Colt TDP, etc.; you choose to make diversionary statements that don't refute my message. You can't refute that quality matters and I don't see how your statements support any real point of view.

I have just spent the last 20+ days researching and talking to engineers about CMMGs WASP process., I do not have any opinion other than that. I will not pre-judge based on a single experience...if that was true a Colt M16A2 would be the freaking worst firearm ever made...since my ISSUED M16A2 was complete crap. Colts TDP is again..not what you think it is. Its not the bible, its not the holy grail on how to build an AR15. Its a manufacturing requirement on how to MASS PRODUCE a rifle IAW a STRICT cost and inspection process that is counter-intuitive to producing a great firearm. Do you realize many of the "must have" items on the AR15 were and some still are AGAINST Colts TDP?

As far as advice offered to you: How can anyone advise you? You seem to presume that you know everything. By your "tier" statement, I do know what I need to about your views. I am sure you have a copy of the M4C "Chart". I am sure you believe Mil-B-11595E, written in 1966, is gods gift to barrel making. I am sure you think a Bolt needs to be shot peened, even when its raw steel exceeds the maximum possible stress the cycling action can induce on it. Believe me I have researched all your views and have all the information to disprove all your "tier" requirements. You are not the first mil-spec zombie I have encountered.

So I guess that you are the AR15 community organizer? You can organize your community as you see fit. From my experience, I know that there are basically two communities: top tier and then everyone else. But hey, it's your money and you do with it whatever you please. yeah...ok

Regardless of that, I still think CMMG is garbage. Then so is Glock, HK, Sig and Armalite...since everyone of those companies produce items of questionable quality while also enjoying the freedom to experiment and move the development of the product line past the point of being obsolete. In doing so those companies have changed the field, given us the best firearms and continue to advance the field. If it wasn't for companies like Armalite, Bushmaster, CMT, and CMMG pushing for better ways, better designs and thinking outside of the box the AR15 would be a sad excuse for a firearm. Colt only reacts, they are and have never been pro-active in development past items they can control. They would NEVER implement a change to the AR15 design if that change could be copied without paying them. This is why we spent over 10 years with fixed carry handles that were once only needed to shroud the CH. Your "tier 2" companies were experimenting with the flat top long before Colt.

This is my experience with CMMG:
I bought something from them that turned out to be defective.
The defect created a real problem.
They acknowledged that they sent multiple batches of the same defective product out (great QC).
They offered a refund only to short me by basically 70% of the value.

LOL...dude Colt screwed me. Bushmaster screwed me, KAC screwed me, S&W screwed me... Spikes screwed me...you live in a bubble if you think putting all your eggs into one basket gets you a better product. It limits you. All companies make mistakes. All companies what is in their best intrest...not what will make the customer happy. If they can do both, they will. No company is going to screw themselves just to make one guy happy. Companies have to deal with people like you all day. You can not please 100% of the people 100% of the time. You drink KAC coolaid..great, even though I was screwed by KAC I don't hold a grudge.

That is why I won't do business with them or with companies like them. It is not that they are a small company. There are quite a few small companies out there that have a real commitment to quality.

As far as my language goes, grow up. This isn't Saudi Arabia and you are not the morality police. This is a firearms forum and we should all be adults here. If parents aren't supervising their kid, that really isn't my problem. The censor removes any cursing anyway, so what is your point?

There is a effort here to allow our kids free access and a safe place to read about guns and gun laws.. While my kids are grown adults, others here have very young kids surfing and learning about guns here. I will ask you again to please watch your language. You don't want to go back and edit...fine. Just shows how little you care for our community here. We would probably be better off not to have to deal with you...but thats not my call. I will not report the post, because I feel we all need to take responsibility for our actions and how we present ourselves. We should be able to control ourselves without a Mod coming down on us. I myself have violated that rule, but if given the chance I would edit and apologies rather than thumb my nose at a community I want to be a part of...think it over man.

missiontrails
05-07-2011, 8:54 AM
Regardless of that, I still think CMMG is garbage.


Next time you pass a dumpster and find a rack of CMMG barrels or receivers..... shoot me a PM, I will pay top dollar.

Us3rName
05-07-2011, 9:25 AM
Interfan officially trolling this thread. You seriously have no idea what mil spec is exactly... mil spec is not the best... its a base like for acceptability via our military. everything you say sounds like a ten year old is speaking. diarrhea of the mouth.



than again. cant please everyone. way to judge a fine mfg by one defective trigger. maybe the response you got from them was a direct reflection of how you came about to them with it. this is gathered from your responses here.

missiontrails
05-07-2011, 9:43 AM
Interfan officially trolling this thread. You seriously have no idea what mil spec is exactly... mil spec is not the best... its a base like for acceptability via our military. everything you say sounds like a ten year old is speaking. diarrhea of the mouth.



than again. cant please everyone. way to judge a fine mfg by one defective trigger. maybe the response you got from them was a direct reflection of how you came about to them with it. this is gathered from your responses here.

+1............ We will never know, but judging by this guy's intellect on here...that is probably the case. I particularly like his "ridding CMMG's C_ _ _" reference.

FatalKitty
05-07-2011, 10:05 AM
There is a effort here to allow our kids free access and a safe place to read about guns and gun laws.. While my kids are grown adults, others here have very young kids surfing and learning about guns here. I will ask you again to please watch your language. You don't want to go back and edit...fine. Just shows how little you care for our community here. We would probably be better off not to have to deal with you...but thats not my call. I will not report the post, because I feel we all need to take responsibility for our actions and how we present ourselves. We should be able to control ourselves without a Mod coming down on us. I myself have violated that rule, but if given the chance I would edit and apologies rather than thumb my nose at a community I want to be a part of...think it over man.

the only thing I can think of to say is
OH SNAP!

just got told :)

shadow65
05-07-2011, 10:53 AM
The whole deal with this upper sounds to me like an upper is being built using CMMG parts, or at least some CMMG parts, then marketed as a CMMG complete upper. That does not sound right to me.

If I buy Colt parts, build an upper, that doesn't make it a Colt upper. That makes it an upper built with Colt parts.

For what it's worth, I have a CMMG 2 stage in one of my builds with over 12K on it.

I have had nothing but positive customer service experiences ove the last year. How it was before that, I have no idea.

I don't recall any manufacturer I have dealt with over the years that I didn't get at least one defective part from.
If it's man made, it can be bad.

How the company takes care of the problem is what makes the difference.
Sorry you seem to have had a bad experience, but I know this wasn't over the last year.
Dave

missiontrails
05-07-2011, 11:09 AM
The whole deal with this upper sounds to me like an upper is being built using CMMG parts, or at least some CMMG parts, then marketed as a CMMG complete upper. That does not sound right to me.

If I buy Colt parts, build an upper, that doesn't make it a Colt upper. That makes it an upper built with Colt parts.

For what it's worth, I have a CMMG 2 stage in one of my builds with over 12K on it.

I have had nothing but positive customer service experiences ove the last year. How it was before that, I have no idea.

I don't recall any manufacturer I have dealt with over the years that I didn't get at least one defective part from.
If it's man made, it can be bad.

How the company takes care of the problem is what makes the difference.
Sorry you seem to have had a bad experience, but I know this wasn't over the last year.
Dave
I know exactaly what it was, and in this case I can't actually blame Mike at Battle Born. CMMG makes some lesser expensive stuff for certain companies, and they don't stamp the barrels. They have made uppers for a place called FFE (Fire for Effect), and those were 4140 barrel steel, 1/9 twist barrels. Mike from Battle Born just found out from his distributor that these are indeed 1/9 uppers. For $500, is was a well made upper, I had it in my hands, mounted it to my CMMG lower, and it was GOOD. Chrome lined, nice feedramps, STRAIGHT FSP, FA BCG. It was just not what I was looking for, because it was a heavier barrel profile. The finished product looked so good, and fit my lower so well. The CMMG lightweight 20" that I just bought from Ten Percent firearms (I got the last one) will be WAY lighter, and that's what I was looking for for this setup.

motorwerks
05-07-2011, 11:57 AM
There is a effort here to allow our kids free access and a safe place to read about guns and gun laws.. While my kids are grown adults, others here have very young kids surfing and learning about guns here. I will ask you again to please watch your language. You don't want to go back and edit...fine. Just shows how little you care for our community here. We would probably be better off not to have to deal with you...but thats not my call. I will not report the post, because I feel we all need to take responsibility for our actions and how we present ourselves. We should be able to control ourselves without a Mod coming down on us. I myself have violated that rule, but if given the chance I would edit and apologies rather than thumb my nose at a community I want to be a part of...think it over man.

zing!

BattleBornArms
05-11-2011, 11:01 PM
I know exactaly what it was, and in this case I can't actually blame Mike at Battle Born. CMMG makes some lesser expensive stuff for certain companies, and they don't stamp the barrels. They have made uppers for a place called FFE (Fire for Effect), and those were 4140 barrel steel, 1/9 twist barrels. Mike from Battle Born just found out from his distributor that these are indeed 1/9 uppers. For $500, is was a well made upper, I had it in my hands, mounted it to my CMMG lower, and it was GOOD. Chrome lined, nice feedramps, STRAIGHT FSP, FA BCG. It was just not what I was looking for, because it was a heavier barrel profile. The finished product looked so good, and fit my lower so well. The CMMG lightweight 20" that I just bought from Ten Percent firearms (I got the last one) will be WAY lighter, and that's what I was looking for for this setup.

for the record, these were not made for fire for effect, these were made for my distributor under contract who does large volume with CMMG. His name is Scott and anyone who has question about them being legit can call CMMG and ask for Lucas, and tell them that they are for Scott Bs contract and they will confirm.

it was my fault for selling it as a government profile. I was asked if i wanted some 20 inch uppers and i said sure, and then i was told that they might be doing some government profile uppers soon, and in my mind i guess i heard that the ones i received were government profile so i advertised them as such. i will be honest with you, i never even pulled them out of the box, just pulled one or two out of the box to verify that they were 20 inch A3s with standard handguards, and slid them back into the box with the bag intact.

I have been told that these uppers are no different than the ones RSR (a major firearms distributor) got except that the barrels arent marked. CMMG offers these at $575.00 with marked barrels. I offer them at $500.00 without barrel markings. If you can live with no barrel markings to save a few bones then these uppers may be for you?

I'm at the mercy of my distributor for what he tells me on this stuff. Im by no means an AR15 expert, its about 50 years too new for my tastes so i couldnt tell you what color crush washer it should have, or what forge mark it should have on the upper, or whatever else, i just take my distributors word on that. He has shown me the slip from CMMG for these, and he has said to just call CMMG and ask for Lucas to verify it all for yourself. If it was a Browning Machine gun or a Vickers i would be a bit more in my comfort zone, but i will confess to being a NOOB on the M16/AR15 - trying to learn though.

anyways, this issue has been resolved. D.E.s money has been refunded and we should be square i hope.



Best regards


Mike

missiontrails
05-12-2011, 1:06 AM
for the record, these were not made for fire for effect, these were made for my distributor under contract who does large volume with CMMG. His name is Scott and anyone who has question about them being legit can call CMMG and ask for Lucas, and tell them that they are for Scott Bs contract and they will confirm.

it was my fault for selling it as a government profile. I was asked if i wanted some 20 inch uppers and i said sure, and then i was told that they might be doing some government profile uppers soon, and in my mind i guess i heard that the ones i received were government profile so i advertised them as such. i will be honest with you, i never even pulled them out of the box, just pulled one or two out of the box to verify that they were 20 inch A3s with standard handguards, and slid them back into the box with the bag intact.

I have been told that these uppers are no different than the ones RSR (a major firearms distributor) got except that the barrels arent marked. CMMG offers these at $575.00 with marked barrels. I offer them at $500.00 without barrel markings. If you can live with no barrel markings to save a few bones then these uppers may be for you?

I'm at the mercy of my distributor for what he tells me on this stuff. Im by no means an AR15 expert, its about 50 years too new for my tastes so i couldnt tell you what color crush washer it should have, or what forge mark it should have on the upper, or whatever else, i just take my distributors word on that. He has shown me the slip from CMMG for these, and he has said to just call CMMG and ask for Lucas to verify it all for yourself. If it was a Browning Machine gun or a Vickers i would be a bit more in my comfort zone, but i will confess to being a NOOB on the M16/AR15 - trying to learn though.

anyways, this issue has been resolved. D.E.s money has been refunded and we should be square i hope.



Best regards


Mike

I will back Mike on this... that WAS an nice quality upper... my MAIN issue was the heavier barrel profile.......... And also for the record, they are not HBAR's, they are Medcons.... which is at least lighter than HBAR...