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pwnage
05-05-2011, 9:25 AM
First off I want to thank BobbyZ and r6raff for their help from earlier posts.

I just picked up my lower and am ready to start building. I got my lower from JD Machine Tech. It's nice and light, plus it has a nice finish. I'm wanting to build this rifle to last forever, and I want to make sure that I do this right the first time.

While I was there I asked a few questions. The first being about gas piston systems. I had 2 different people tell me don't waste your time. One guy explained that they were ammo sensitive, and the other guy offered no explanation beyond that. Is this right?

I also mentioned that I was planing on going with a DD lower parts kit and the guy gave me the "why, are you crazy" look. He proceeded to say that all the parts they use are made in the USA and that if something went wrong with my lower that DD would probably not warranty it. I think this is a load, and from everything I have seen/read DD makes some good quality stuff. Is there any reason why I shouldn't go with DD?

One of the guys also mentioned that chrome lining could/most likely decrease accuracy. Is there any weight to this?

If I get a DD CHF Chrome barrel and a BCM BCG will I have to worry about head spacing? Should I be looking someplace else for a complete upper or barrel and BCG?

Does the upper receiver housing matter all that much?

I would like to get a good red dot sight or optic but I don't want to spend too much--$450 would be my max. What is the general opinion on the EoTech 516? Should I look somewhere else?

Anyone know of a hand guard rail system that will extend the almost the full length of a 16" barrel, like 14" or so?

Thanks in advance

Bigbird19
05-05-2011, 9:46 AM
Daniel defense makes a 14 and larue and others make 13.2's

wash
05-05-2011, 9:55 AM
Are you going to shoot crap ammo?

Gas piston systems are good for keeping your action cleaner because it doesn't pipe hot burning powder in to your bolt and upper.

If you shoot decent ammo it isn't much of a concern.

A DD LPK should be fine, what were they trying to sell you?

In my opinion, just about any LPK should be fine. I've had good luck with cheapo DPMS and beside the pistol grip and trigger guard, there is nothing that I think needs changing/upgrading. The hammer and trigger seem like the only parts that would wear and I haven't seen any evidence of them wearing out.

I would go with any reputable company for an LPK: DPMS, DD, RRA, White Oak, Armalite, Colt, Doublestar, etc. Probably steer clear from no name kits from small distributors.

Buying a complete upper from BCM or DD with BCG is probably your safest bet for headspace but bolts are built to spec and barrels are chambered for that so mixing is probably safe.

The upper receiver doesn't matter unless it doesnt fit or doesn't work. Buying complete should eliminate those issues.

In my opinion, super long rails on ~short barrel carbines are kind of lame, what are you going to mount way out there? It will also limit your access to the gas block which is kind of important if you use a gas piston system.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 10:12 AM
First off I want to thank BobbyZ and r6raff for their help from earlier posts.

I just picked up my lower and am ready to start building. I got my lower from JD Machine Tech. It's nice and light, plus it has a nice finish. I'm wanting to build this rifle to last forever, and I want to make sure that I do this right the first time. Good choice.

While I was there I asked a few questions. The first being about gas piston systems. I had 2 different people tell me don't waste your time. One guy explained that they were ammo sensitive, and the other guy offered no explanation beyond that. Is this right? Sorta, but there are systems out there that are very reliable, you just need to research those away from the AR15. I would never buy a piston system from a company that just got into it. They maybe good, they may need time to work the bugs out...its best to go with a company who has already worked the bugs out. Since each company has its own way to do things, you are NOT getting an AR15..you are forever investing in that company. Parts availability depends on them.

I also mentioned that I was planing on going with a DD lower parts kit and the guy gave me the "why, are you crazy" look. He proceeded to say that all the parts they use are made in the USA and that if something went wrong with my lower that DD would probably not warranty it. I think this is a load, and from everything I have seen/read DD makes some good quality stuff. Is there any reason why I shouldn't go with DD? DD is standard stuff...I have no idea WTF they were talking about. Its no better or worse then CMT, Colt, LMT,...

One of the guys also mentioned that chrome lining could/most likely decrease accuracy. Is there any weight to this? Yes slightly, but you gain a barrel that will last longer. Look to CMMG and their Melonite Treated Chrome Moly to be a step above the rest. Its untested but a sound process used by Glock with their Tefinner coating...same thing, different name.

If I get a DD CHF Chrome barrel and a BCM BCG will I have to worry about head spacing? Should I be looking someplace else for a complete upper or barrel and BCG? No problem mixing the two, its a good idea to get from the same place for ease of shipping cost.

Does the upper receiver housing matter all that much? Yes and No. Some cheaper ones use thinner coatings and some even PAINT!! You want 6061-T6 with type III anodizing, or for an even stronger 7075-T6. But billet can be 6061-T651 and be better than 7075-TX cast upper. Some companies use type I which is thinner and cheaper.

I would like to get a good red dot sight or optic but I don't want to spend too much--$450 would be my max. What is the general opinion on the EoTech 516? Should I look somewhere else? C-more ATAC, save and get a used accupoint 1.5-4x24, both of these are better than an older model EOtech in my book. You can look into a older aimpoint M2 also.

Anyone know of a hand guard rail system that will extend the almost the full length of a 16" barrel, like 14" or so?

Thanks in advance

Its your firearm...don't let others tell you that you MUST follow what they do. Research the living hell out of any thing anyone tells you. Don't settle on one source...use multiple sources and read for yourself....use common sense and good judgment. Your rifle will be fine.

AeroEngi
05-05-2011, 10:36 AM
First off I want to thank BobbyZ and r6raff for their help from earlier posts.

I just picked up my lower and am ready to start building. I got my lower from JD Machine Tech. It's nice and light, plus it has a nice finish. I'm wanting to build this rifle to last forever, and I want to make sure that I do this right the first time.

While I was there I asked a few questions. The first being about gas piston systems. I had 2 different people tell me don't waste your time. One guy explained that they were ammo sensitive, and the other guy offered no explanation beyond that. Is this right?

I also mentioned that I was planing on going with a DD lower parts kit and the guy gave me the "why, are you crazy" look. He proceeded to say that all the parts they use are made in the USA and that if something went wrong with my lower that DD would probably not warranty it. I think this is a load, and from everything I have seen/read DD makes some good quality stuff. Is there any reason why I shouldn't go with DD?

One of the guys also mentioned that chrome lining could/most likely decrease accuracy. Is there any weight to this?

If I get a DD CHF Chrome barrel and a BCM BCG will I have to worry about head spacing? Should I be looking someplace else for a complete upper or barrel and BCG?

Does the upper receiver housing matter all that much?

I would like to get a good red dot sight or optic but I don't want to spend too much--$450 would be my max. What is the general opinion on the EoTech 516? Should I look somewhere else?

Anyone know of a hand guard rail system that will extend the almost the full length of a 16" barrel, like 14" or so?

Thanks in advance

Everything that diesel said but I'll add one thing regarding your optic question. If you want an Aimpoint style red dot, you might wanna look into the Aimpoint PRO. Last I heard, Aimpoint was only selling those to law enforcement but you might still be able to get one if you're not LE. They run about $400 but they come with a mount.

If you want an Eotech, then I personally would go for the 517 just because it uses standard AA batteries. You also might want to look around on here for Eotech group buys.

mlevans66
05-05-2011, 10:37 AM
Its your firearm...don't let others tell you that you MUST follow what they do. Research the living hell out of any thing anyone tells you. Don't settle on one source...use multiple sources and read for yourself....use common sense and good judgment. Your rifle will be fine.

Calgun Master Jedi has spoken :D

Anywho you could get a Eotech on the cheap if you look through the market thread by the way. My two cents!

pwnage
05-05-2011, 12:12 PM
I'm not sure which one they were trying to sell me. I think it was a no name though.

Who are good manufactures of piston systems? I know stag makes them but I'm not quite sure if I want one of their uppers.

Is it possible to get a receiver, barrel, etc... and upgrade to a piston system? Is that recommended?

What are your guys impression of Spikes?

Thanks for the parts info guys I'm going to hunt for some reviews and see what I come up with.

pwnage
05-05-2011, 5:18 PM
I've done some looking around and I want to get opinions on these parts.

The 3 BCM uppers don't have a BCG. So I will have to buy one.

BCM BCG /w ionbond
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-ionbond-p/bcm%20bcg%20auto%20ib.htm

BCM Standard 16" M4 Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense LITE 7" Handguard
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Carbine-Upper-Receiver-daniel-defense-p/bcm-urg-m4-16%20ddl7.htm

BCM Standard 16" M4 Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense Lite 10" Handguard
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-m4-16%20ddl10.htm

BCM Standard 16" M4 Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense OmegaX 7 Handguard
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-m4%2016%20ddox7.htm

Daniel Defense 16" M4 Upper Half - LITE 9.5 FSP (w/ BCG & Rear Sight)
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-16-M4-Upper-Half-LITE-9-5FSP-p/dd%209021%20upper%20half.htm

wash
05-05-2011, 5:49 PM
Adams arms makes a very popular and often copied gas piston retrofit kit.

I have one but the upper isn't together enough to try out. The fit and finish seem fine. It is pretty heavy with that tall steel gas block...

I have a few Spikes products and I like them.

rattlesnake_nm
05-05-2011, 6:01 PM
The osprey ops-416 is better than Adams. Just kidding, they are both great :) No heavy gas block, and no unnecessary spring, and valve. I have over 20,000 rounds down range using the ops-416, mostly 5.45x39. Zero problems. All types of ammo.

r6raff
05-05-2011, 6:21 PM
I've done some looking around and I want to get opinions on these parts.

The 3 BCM uppers don't have a BCG. So I will have to buy one.

BCM BCG /w ionbond
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-ionbond-p/bcm%20bcg%20auto%20ib.htm

BCM Standard 16" M4 Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense LITE 7" Handguard
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Carbine-Upper-Receiver-daniel-defense-p/bcm-urg-m4-16%20ddl7.htm

BCM Standard 16" M4 Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense Lite 10" Handguard
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-m4-16%20ddl10.htm

BCM Standard 16" M4 Upper Receiver Group w/ Daniel Defense OmegaX 7 Handguard
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-M4-Upper-Receiver-Daniel-Defense-p/bcm-urg-m4%2016%20ddox7.htm

Daniel Defense 16" M4 Upper Half - LITE 9.5 FSP (w/ BCG & Rear Sight)
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-16-M4-Upper-Half-LITE-9-5FSP-p/dd%209021%20upper%20half.htm

I have a 16" with a 12" handguard and even though my rail is pretty lite for a 12" it makes the weapon pretty front heavy, if I did it again I would go with a 7" or a 9", most likely will be my next build if I get another 16". Thats from my experience.

As far as all the listed BCMs and DD, they are all real good choices imo but all out of stock :( I really like the ion bound BCG but I dont think its available in the package, so the cost will be higher since you have to buy it ala carte style. BCMs standard BCG is pretty awesome though so I would recommend that one as an alternative hands down.

Have you considered the BFH barrels? or the Pencil LW barrels? LW barrel with a 7" Rail = light as crap.

Chrome Lined will yield better longevity with a slight hit to accuracy, but I doubt few would notice and if you were looking into a precision build anyways you would be barking up the SS tree if that was your flavor.

I have a DD lpk myself and have installed a few for friends and I love them. Nothing fancy mind you but quality, much better then say DPMS.

You can mix and match bcg with other manufactures, people do it all the time. Lots of people I know have (insert brand) uppers with BCM bcg, never heard of any issues there.

Red dots, I Saw an eotech XPS on the market place for 350 I think. I have an eotech 511 and I absolutely love it. Otherwise, I would go for an older aim point. If you look and have patience you can definitely get a great red dot for 300-400 bucks.

Have fun man, looks like you got the right idea for a sweet build.

pwnage
05-05-2011, 8:13 PM
Guys much thanks again.

Yeah it seems that many of the parts are out of stock including the DD LPK. Precision Arms has one but after tax and shipping it would be about 85 bucks. That seems a bit high?

Have you considered the BFH barrels? or the Pencil LW barrels? LW barrel with a 7" Rail = light as crap.

I haven't I'll take a look at them though. I must admit that lightness isn't a huge priority. I'm one of those guys who likes the weight of the M1 Garand, and that's a heavy gun. :p

supersonic
05-05-2011, 8:28 PM
Its your firearm...don't let others tell you that you MUST follow what they do. Research the living hell out of any thing anyone tells you. Don't settle on one source...use multiple sources and read for yourself....use common sense and good judgment. Your rifle will be fine.

^^ That is the most valuable advice you are going to get, OP. Don't be swayed be "tier-boys"/"fanboiys" only to have buyer's remorse later on down the road. As DP mentioned, research the holy living mother of HELL out of it until you are sure of your choice(s). Another thing that I agree on from the above is the (almost overlooked) GOODNESS of CMMG. Anyone that attempts to bash them on any level has never had any experience with their kit. Plus, their C.S. is top-notch.:thumbsup:

EDIT: Unless you are a competitive shooter & are going to try shaving fractions of an inch off your groups, you will never notice an accuracy difference between a CL and a non-CL bore. That's a fact.

dieselpower
05-05-2011, 8:53 PM
^^ That is the most valuable advice you are going to get, OP. Don't be swayed be "tier-boys"/"fanboiys" only to have buyer's remorse later on down the road. As DP mentioned, research the holy living mother of HELL out of it until you are sure of your choice(s). Another thing that I agree on from the above is the (almost overlooked) GOODNESS of CMMG. Anyone that attempts to bash them on any level has never had any experience with their kit. Plus, their C.S. is top-notch.:thumbsup:

EDIT: Unless you are a competitive shooter & are going to try shaving fractions of an inch off your groups, you will never notice an accuracy difference between a CL and a non-CL bore. That's a fact.

my buddy just picked up the CMMG 16" LE WASP 556NATO 1:9 @ Midway USA for like $600 thats with a BCG and CH. Its blacker than black, deep rich color. I was expecting more of a Glock finish since its just like a Glocks Tefiner coating. Can't wait to help him track how this coating works over time.

subijitsu
05-05-2011, 9:29 PM
Its your firearm...don't let others tell you that you MUST follow what they do. Research the living hell out of any thing anyone tells you. Don't settle on one source...use multiple sources and read for yourself....use common sense and good judgment. Your rifle will be fine.

Diesel nailed it. /\ This will help you more than anything.

One thing about the upper that I pay attention to, from a strictly cosmetic standpoint, is how the finish on an upper and lower match. That beautiful JD lower paired with an upper thats finish contrasts it could make your rifle not look like you may want. Again, strictly personal preference and cosmetic, but I have built an AR that I pulled apart and bought a new stripped upper for it because I was going for a more cohesive look (if any of that makes sense). On the other hand the AR I shoot the most was built from leftover parts and doesnt match for ****. :laugh:

pwnage
05-05-2011, 9:31 PM
I'm looking at CMMG for a complete .22LR upper. The seem like a good co.

I've looked around and I can't seem to find an answer to this. For buffer tubes there are commercial and mil-spec. Are both okay on a CA AR /w a 16" barrel? It would make life easier if I could find a full stock kit from Magpul.

wash
05-05-2011, 11:33 PM
I suggest a mil spec buffer tube.

Commercial always plays second fiddle in product development and does not have any advantages.

The other option is a fixed stock. I like the ACE Skeleton, it's light and strong, you get to use a rifle buffer so it smooths things out a little compared to the Carbine stuff.

I just got a Vltor A5 buffer for a project, it looks like the best setup for a telescoping stock but it does need a longer buffer tube.

If you are not in a hurry, what I would do is lay out all your options, create lists of wants and needs, then figure out what the rifle will be like if you get everything. You might not like it as a whole even though you like all the parts, so refine your lists until the rifle fits your budget and is something you will like. If some wants break the budget, think about leaving an upgrade path to eventually get what you want but still have a useable rifle the whole time.

Once you are clear on what you want, shop. Look at total cost involved including shipping and tax. I try to buy as much locally as possible. I spend an extra $20 or $30 here and there but that's the cost of having a nice local gun shop.

My best advice is be patient. If a part takes two weeks to arrive or is back ordered a month, you are probably only delayed 2 weeks from the time you get your other parts, so just work on the hard to find items first and everything else will fall in place.

pwnage
05-12-2011, 9:01 AM
I now have most of the parts to build sadly I'm unable to find a DD LPK and a BCM BCG /w ionbond.

Any suggestions on alternate parts?

wash
05-12-2011, 9:43 AM
ITS bolt carrier groups with their "Super Bolt" should be nice, I think they might even have titanium boron nitride coating available.

I just bought a Rock River LPK with their 2 stage trigger and it seems fine.

pwnage
05-12-2011, 11:40 AM
okay mlevans66 just posted that BCM BCGs are in stock at bravocompanyusa. Question now becomes ionbond v. no ionbond. Is it worth the extra cost?

Lead Waster
05-12-2011, 12:20 PM
My (possibly useless to you) opinion;

Making a lower receiver from a block of aluminum requires specialized machinery (CNC mill) and attention to detail. You can't just make some piece of crap and sell it. If the specs are wrong, it just won't work and you couldn't sell ANY of them. The lower does one thing ... it holds the parts together in a very specific alignment. If something is off, they adjust the design and make ones that work. Quality control is important, but I think the CNC machine is very repeatable and will churn out quality items, unless the block of aluminum is f'ed up.

The point here being that you can't just slap together a lower to sell if you don't have at least some skill in running a CNC machine, these things are not made in a sweatshop by 8 year olds. So pretty much any lower is going to "work".

Parts kits... to my un- experienced eye it's a jumble of pins and springs, probably most of them come from the same factory. Hammers and triggers might be different in a parts kit. The grip might also be different. ie; Any "brand name" parts kit will probably work well. If there is a bad parts kit, you'll hear about it on calguns!

Gas Piston Upgrade - My suggestion is that if you plan to upgrade a standard upper to gas piston, then get the upper and shoot it for a while THEN decide if you think you want the upgrade. Don't buy a DI upper and gas piston upgrade kit at the same time, in case you decide not to bother with the GP kit.

My two trains of thought were this when I was building my AR.

1) Do a crapton of research and hand pick parts that other people gave the OK on, or said were exceptional
2) I have no idea what I want/need, so just build something using reasonably priced parts, then go shooting.

I opted for #2, in part because that way, I can figure out what I want/need and don't want/need. Yeah, it's more expensive that way to re-buy a better part...but it's also cheaper if I decide that, yeah, I don't need Gas piston, or hey, this barrel works pretty good, or hey, I like this trigger.

Well, good luck and keep us up to date on what happens!

pwnage
05-12-2011, 12:49 PM
Lead thanks for the input. I was initially playing both the budget build and best parts fields and I ended up, inadvertently, going all best parts. :P

Here is the build as of now:

JD Machine LR
BCM upper group /w 16" BFH barrel
Ergo grip
Stag buffer kit
EoTech 516
BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle

Parts still needed:
Stock: Probably going with a Magpul CTS milspec
LPK: Would like DD kit because I have heard good things but am open to going with someone else.
BCG: Like I mentioned I would like the BCM BCG /w ionbon but I'm not sure it's worth the price. Plus it's not in stock.

So far I'm at ~$1500 with parts purchased (includes tax, DROS, and shipping). I would love to keep this below 2K preferably $1700 but I don't think that is likely with the parts I have already and parts that I still need.

wash
05-12-2011, 7:05 PM
BCM bolt carrier groups are good because they are assembled right with mil-spec parts that have been tested.

With that said, beside any fancy coating you get, it's a pretty standard piece.

The ITS I mentioned has superior design and good materials on it's side. It's also in stock (and on sale).

If you want the best and are willing to spend a little more (~$200 BCG with titanium boron nitride coated carrier), the ITS is something to consider.

evolixsurf
05-12-2011, 7:13 PM
you want a rifle to last a while? Any lower will work. lmt, colt, dd or bcm bcg will work. I would suggest a hammer forged bcm upper(or DD, ect)... do your research on a trigger and your good to go(meaning, figure out what your going to do with the rifle). Try to get advice and research what all the guys are training with, not the guys who go to the range to shoot. Im even running a standard bcm upper and it will last a long time..........

evolixsurf
05-12-2011, 7:18 PM
Lead thanks for the input. I was initially playing both the budget build and best parts fields and I ended up, inadvertently, going all best parts. :P

Here is the build as of now:

JD Machine LR
BCM upper group /w 16" BFH barrel
Ergo grip
Stag buffer kit
EoTech 516
BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle

Parts still needed:
Stock: Probably going with a Magpul CTS milspec
LPK: Would like DD kit because I have heard good things but am open to going with someone else.
BCG: Like I mentioned I would like the BCM BCG /w ionbon but I'm not sure it's worth the price. Plus it's not in stock.

So far I'm at ~$1500 with parts purchased (includes tax, DROS, and shipping). I would love to keep this below 2K preferably $1700 but I don't think that is likely with the parts I have already and parts that I still need.

I would not buy the eotech 516. Its old technology. They are known to fail MUCH MORE than aimpoints. I got a xps and love it. I want to switch it for a aimpoint PRO though. Do it once and just get the PRO.

the rest of your build looks great.

Dont waste money on ionbond. If you research, they all start to have failures at about 2500 rounds(not lubed). Just keep a regular bolt lubed and its going to do just fine.

pwnage
05-12-2011, 7:42 PM
I would not buy the eotech 516. Its old technology. They are known to fail MUCH MORE than aimpoints. I got a xps and love it. I want to switch it for a aimpoint PRO though. Do it once and just get the PRO.

Already got one. :P

I would suggest a hammer forged bcm upper...

That's what I got. It's a BCM upper reviver with a 16" BFH barrel.

I decided to go with the std BCM BCG. I plan on keeping my rifle in really good condition so I suppose that I don't need the ionbonding. I also picked up the last of my parts (raddlock, stock, and LPK). I still need mags. I think I'm going to check out the regional gun show that is coming up.

So here is the build (parts that I have and parts that are inbound)

JD Machine LR
BCM upper group /w 16" BFH barrel
Ergo grip
Stag buffer kit
EoTech 516
BCM Gunfighter Charging Handle
Magpul CTR Milspec
Raddlock
DD LPK

I got the final total in and I'm just over $1900 /w DROS, shipping and tax. I still need mags, an armorers kit, and a BUIS, but at least one of those items can come further down the line. ;)

Anyone know of a good barrel/stock combo wrench?

For the parts listed does $1900 seem like a fair price?

evolixsurf
05-12-2011, 7:53 PM
I found that my precision rifle LOVED the bushmaster 5 and 10 round mags(and so would any other rifles) Put the magpul followers in them though.

For the battle rifle though you cant go wrong with 10/30 pmags. Midwestpx.com is all you need from here...

Don29palms
05-12-2011, 10:46 PM
Sounds like a good build. If you want a GPU later plan on building one from the beginning. I have one I built with an Adams Arms kit and it works flawlessly with any ammo I put through it including any steel case ammo I've used.

Top rifle is a GPU and the lower rifle is DI.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg164/don29palms/NewSignature.jpg