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TiMe_1
05-04-2011, 11:00 AM
Im getting closer to buying my upper and I need to know about sights. This will be my first AR. Ive had a few people tell me that I need an upper with a fixed iron front sight so I can get good with iron sights then switch to an optic. Ive thought about getting an upper without a fixed front sight and goin with flip ups front and rear. Is there anything wrong with that setup for a first timer? Should I listen to the people telling me to go with a fixed? I already have an optic (got a good deal on it) and this rifle will be just a "fun" gun range, plinker, etc.

crob
05-04-2011, 11:15 AM
I say do what you want. It's your gun and will be the one shooting it. If you are more comfortable with an optic and this will be a range plinker, there is nothing wrong with running it with an optic from the start. Knowing the irons will help if your optic fails in a situation where you will need to take a shot be it hunting or defensive purposes. I am shooting with my BUIS right now, but mainly because I am too broke to buy the scope I want.

TiMe_1
05-04-2011, 11:22 AM
Are flip up front/rear sights just as accurate as a fixed front sight with say a flip up rear?

CK_32
05-04-2011, 12:14 PM
Are flip up front/rear sights just as accurate as a fixed front sight with say a flip up rear?

Quality flips?? Yes...

Cheap flips... No...

Check out my YouTube channel. Mrmidnight32...

I have Troy flip sites and shot a 10"x 5" box of tannerite at 300 to 350 yards dead on first shot. The Troy di optics blow every other flip up sites out of the water in my opinion... Easier target/site aquisition and just a ton easier for your eye to pick up the 2 and give you proper alignment.

chicoredneck
05-04-2011, 12:25 PM
Good flip up sights are just as good as fixed irons. I have an Ar with a fixed front sight and it is just in the way all the time. A good flip up sight has way more use and versatility than a fixed one.

17+1
05-04-2011, 12:45 PM
Im getting closer to buying my upper and I need to know about sights. This will be my first AR. Ive had a few people tell me that I need an upper with a fixed iron front sight so I can get good with iron sights then switch to an optic. Ive thought about getting an upper without a fixed front sight and goin with flip ups front and rear. Is there anything wrong with that setup for a first timer? Should I listen to the people telling me to go with a fixed? I already have an optic (got a good deal on it) and this rifle will be just a "fun" gun range, plinker, etc.

Maybe stay away from the folding rear at first. I'd say go with the stand alone A2 style (or even a detachable handle) that has windage and elevation adjustments in the rear. The rear flip ups I've seen limit you to windage; some may offer elevation but I've never seen one. Part of 'learning on irons' is getting comfortable cranking the knobs and learning your 'come-ups' for different ranges as well as windage adjustments for different wind speed and direction.

There is also play in the front sight detent assembly, which will need to be addressed with a set screw locking the front post from the bottom.

TiMe_1
05-04-2011, 1:05 PM
Quality flips?? Yes...

Cheap flips... No...

Check out my YouTube channel. Mrmidnight32...

I have Troy flip sites and shot a 10"x 5" box of tannerite at 300 to 350 yards dead on first shot. The Troy di optics blow every other flip up sites out of the water in my opinion... Easier target/site aquisition and just a ton easier for your eye to pick up the 2 and give you proper alignment.

Define cheap flip ups so I know what to stay away from.

Thanks

ChrisTKHarris
05-04-2011, 1:07 PM
Get some Troy folding sights.

21SF
05-04-2011, 1:14 PM
I have a pair of samson flip ups that i like and have always been spot on.

santacruzstefan
05-04-2011, 3:20 PM
I really like the detachable fixed style LMT sights. I thought I would hate them, but they are actually pretty nice.

CK_32
05-04-2011, 3:31 PM
Define cheap flip ups so I know what to stay away from.

Thanks

Anything that normally runs cheaper than $80 new. IMO.

Iggy
05-04-2011, 3:38 PM
I'm new to irons, but aren't most rear flip ups fixed in terms of elevation? I know KAC has one for 600m that flips down, but most fixed A2 sights have elevation adjustment with markings for specific distances.

My guess is this is why flip ups are called backups? Because they are better than nothing?

rareair
05-04-2011, 3:40 PM
Define cheap flip ups so I know what to stay away from.

If the description reads "Airsoft use only" lol

tacticalcity
05-04-2011, 3:47 PM
Im getting closer to buying my upper and I need to know about sights. This will be my first AR. Ive had a few people tell me that I need an upper with a fixed iron front sight so I can get good with iron sights then switch to an optic. Ive thought about getting an upper without a fixed front sight and goin with flip ups front and rear. Is there anything wrong with that setup for a first timer? Should I listen to the people telling me to go with a fixed? I already have an optic (got a good deal on it) and this rifle will be just a "fun" gun range, plinker, etc.

There is nothing wrong with it, it is just that it can lead to spending a lot of money you do not need to spend.

It all depends on how you use your rifle.

If you are using a scope that has lots of magnification then the traditional front sight post can cause a slight shadow/glare and it is a nice bonus if it is not there.

If you are using a red dot, and you get some training, odds are they are going to teach you to keep your sights flipped up even though you are running a red dot. This is because electronic devices can and do fail. Both EoTechs and Aimpoints have failed on me personally in the past so I know first hand this is true. Having your sights flipped up means you can seemlessly transition them if you are facing a world of hurt right at the monent the red dot fails. If they are flipped down, then at that particular crunch time moment they might as well not even be there at all. There are techniques you can use, such as "shooting the tube". But they are a far cry from being as effective as having had the sights flipped up.

In other words, if your sights are going to be flipped up all the time why spend more on an upper without the front sight post? Traditional M4 uppers and other uppers with front sights are usually much cheaper than uppers with extended 4-Rail handguards that cover the low profile gas block, which is what I assume you are talking about. Usually a couple hundred dollars cheaper. So odds are you will end up spending a lot of money just to get a certain look, when the much less expensive upper might better suit your needs. If you are planning on getting a M4 upper with traditional handguards and the only thing different is it has a railed gas block, might as well go for the front sight post version instead. They don't bring anything extra to the table. The point of those uppers with the extended rails is that they usually have extended gas systems as well. That helps with recoil a little. So there is an argument in favor of them. But the normal uppers with the railed gas blocks just don't bring enough to the table to justify the added expense.

So in short, my answer is think about how you are using it and why you want what you want. If it is just for how it looks, I would spend more time learning about what each design feature brings to the table and what the downsides to those features are (some things add a lot of weight which is bad for CQB and running and gunning). That way you know you won't be replacing what you buy a year from now.

MY PERSONAL TAKE ON THE QUALITY OF THE MAJOR FLIP-UP BRAND SIGHTS

YHM **
ARMS metal **
ARMS polymer *
GG&G AZ ***
KAC 300MM **
KAC 600MM **** (if you are running a variable scope the low height and small foot print of this one is ideal but is critical for red dots)
Magpul MBUS *
Matech ***
Midwest Industries **
TROY **** (most people's favorite - I run them myself)

Anything on ebay that has one of these brand names and the word "Style" after it...in orderwords knockoffs or airsoft parts are a no go. You can get great deals on ebay on the real deal. I have an ebay store myself and only sell genuine parts. But you also have to be careful to avoid the knockoffs. It will be EXTREMELY obvious they are not the real deal because the seller will tell you so. You just have to pay attention and read.

Mr.Caketown
05-04-2011, 3:50 PM
Anything that normally runs cheaper than $80 new. IMO.

Matech rear sight runs about $40 new :p

RONIN.
05-04-2011, 3:56 PM
imho http://www.botachtactical.com/maba60si.html that is my favorite flip up rear site.. windage and elevation adjustment.. i have one on all of my ar's.. works great with the stand a2 front sight base, and also works great with the pri flip up front sight i have on my spr..

seeing as you said this is your first ar.. alot of ppl have said learn to use the irons.. and i 100% agree.. then after you understand windage and elevation adjustment.. then spend your money on an optic..

ronin.

TiMe_1
05-04-2011, 4:01 PM
Thanks for the input fellas, its greatly appreciated.

This rifle will be a "fun" gun and a SHTF gun if it ever comes about. I know rifles are suppose to be function over form but I really like the looks of a 12" handguard on a 16" midlength setup. :D Thats why im asking about flip up sights.

Iggy
05-04-2011, 4:05 PM
you can always do what i did...

http://iggycorp.com/gun/woad1.JPG

Bigbird19
05-04-2011, 4:09 PM
I'm new to irons, but aren't most rear flip ups fixed in terms of elevation? I know KAC has one for 600m that flips down, but most fixed A2 sights have elevation adjustment with markings for specific distances.

My guess is this is why flip ups are called backups? Because they are better than nothing?

Alot of flip-up sights such as the troy has elevation built into the front post, So you turn the front post and it goes up or down while the rear is fixed.

Differes from sight to sight

tacticalcity
05-04-2011, 4:10 PM
imho http://www.botachtactical.com/maba60si.html that is my favorite flip up rear site.. windage and elevation adjustment.. i have one on all of my ar's.. works great with the stand a2 front sight base, and also works great with the pri flip up front sight i have on my spr..

seeing as you said this is your first ar.. alot of ppl have said learn to use the irons.. and i 100% agree.. then after you understand windage and elevation adjustment.. then spend your money on an optic..

ronin.

It depends on how much space you have. If you are running a variable power scope the footprint and height are usually too big to fit under it. For red dots, it is a great rear sight.

tacticalcity
05-04-2011, 4:11 PM
Alot of flip-up sights such as the troy has elevation built into the front post, So you turn the front post and it goes up or down while the rear is fixed.

Differes from sight to sight

I agree that is a non issue. Every front sight I have ever seen has an adjustable front sight post, even the cheap polymer ones. Once you get the rifle sighted in at your desired distance (which varies depending on whether the rifle is for CQB, Open Field, or Precision) you don't mess with it ever again. Not unless you had to do some major gunsmithing and completely changed the upper in a way that affected point of aim / point of impact.

Iggy
05-04-2011, 4:14 PM
Alot of flip-up sights such as the troy has elevation built into the front post, So you turn the front post and it goes up or down while the rear is fixed.

Differes from sight to sight

I don't think so. A2 fixed sights also have this and it is so you can zero your rifle. Fixed rear A2 sights have a large knob right under the peep hole with markings on it so you can quickly adjust elevation and back. You can't do that with the front site, well I guess you could but it would negate the practicality of adjusting for changing distances.

Mr.Caketown
05-04-2011, 4:15 PM
Just buy the KAC URX rail with a built in Front Sight :43:

Bigbird19
05-04-2011, 4:16 PM
Agreed, Not saying its not nearly as practical as the a2 handle, Maytech, and KAC sights. But thats how it is( in my understanding)

evidens83
05-04-2011, 4:17 PM
+1 for TROY. Quality, fit, and finish is 2nd to none IMHO...

Iggy
05-04-2011, 4:18 PM
Agreed, Not saying its not nearly as practical as the a2 handle, Maytech, and KAC sights. But thats how it is( in my understanding)

No, that is there to adjust elevation for zeroing the rifle, not to adjust elevation for targets. Thats why it's adjustable, otherwise how do you zero a rifle when the front and rear sights have fixed elevation?

tacticalcity
05-04-2011, 4:19 PM
Thanks for the input fellas, its greatly appreciated.

This rifle will be a "fun" gun and a SHTF gun if it ever comes about. I know rifles are suppose to be function over form but I really like the looks of a 12" handguard on a 16" midlength setup. :D Thats why im asking about flip up sights.

They look very sexy. I personally own one of those (I refer to it as my Recon Rifle) and an M4. When it comes time to take a course, or head to the range for some running and gunning I reach for the M4. Why? It is much lighter and a lot more fun when training all day long on those hot summer days.

When people look at my rifles they always drool over the Recon Rifle with the longer handguards. After an 8 hour course in the summer heat they want to swap with me and use my M4 for the next day's course. You really begin to feel the weight after the first couple of hours.

This is one of those things you need to learn first hand. I know I did. I just HAD to build the rifle with the extended handguards. I spent over $1500 on the upper alone. It never gets used. I reach for the M4 over it every time.

I eventually plan to put a nice variable power scope on it and use it as range whore. The stainless steel barrel is much more suited to precision shooting than CQB anyway. If my M4 goes into the shop for some reason, I can always put a red dot on the Recon Rifle and use it as my backup.

My shotgun, however, is an even bigger red headed step child. I put way more attention into my ARs and my 1911.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/IMG_0642.jpg

MrPlink
05-04-2011, 4:23 PM
I'm also a lmt fixed fan.
Of course I also prefer to run 100% cowitness all the time, with sights deployed if applicable.

The lmt rear is great though, full adjustment, doesent take up too much space and plenty tough.
Of course, really only makes sense with a reflex, won't work with an acog or magnified scope.

tacticalcity
05-04-2011, 4:28 PM
I'm also a lmt fixed fan.
Of course I also prefer to run 100% cowitness all the time, with sights deployed if applicable.

The lmt rear is great though, full adjustment, doesent take up too much space and plenty tough.
Of course, really only makes sense with a reflex, won't work with an acog or magnified scope.

I like it as well. Nice solid sight. Like everything LMT makes it is very well made. I've used them in the past and will probably use them again.

But the flip-ups give you the option of variable optics should you change up the roll that rifle serves.

justbill5789
05-04-2011, 4:30 PM
I second some of what is being said. If you’re going to be using optics then the BUIS flip up sights will be just that a back up. If you have the cash buy the best. If not, then buy the best you can afford. I went with ARMS composite (plastic) flip up sights. I am a bench shooter and will put the money into my optics not my BUPS (back up plastic sight). If for some reason I need my back up sights, I have them.

Someone mentioned buying from this company http://www.botachtactical.com/maba60si.html. I do not want to prejudice you with my “wonderful” (said sarcastically) experience. However, before you hit the send button. Try calling their customer service number for some help and see if you get a real person or send them an e-mail with a question and see if you get a response back. Also, do a search on reviews on the company, there are about four dedicate sights (yes, yelp is one of them) to people who have ordered from them. I failed to take this advice. DUH!!!!

TiMe_1
05-04-2011, 4:37 PM
They look very sexy. I personally own one of those (I refer to it as my Recon Rifle) and an M4. When it comes time to take a course, or head to the range for some running and gunning I reach for the M4. Why? It is much lighter and a lot more fun when training all day long on those hot summer days.

When people look at my rifles they always drool over the Recon Rifle with the longer handguards. After an 8 hour course in the summer heat they want to swap with me and use my M4 for the next day's course. You really begin to feel the weight after the first couple of hours.

This is one of those things you need to learn first hand. I know I did. I just HAD to build the rifle with the extended handguards. I spent over $1500 on the upper alone. It never gets used. I reach for the M4 over it every time.

I eventually plan to put a nice variable power scope on it and use it as range whore. The stainless steel barrel is much more suited to precision shooting than CQB anyway. If my M4 goes into the shop for some reason, I can always put a red dot on the Recon Rifle and use it as my backup.

My shotgun, however, is an even bigger red headed step child. I put way more attention into my ARs and my 1911.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh183/tacticalcity/IMG_0642.jpg

That makes a lot of sense. I dont want a heavy rifle.

tacticalcity
05-04-2011, 4:47 PM
That makes a lot of sense. I dont want a heavy rifle.

If you have buddies that own ARs of different styles then plan a group range trip and spend some time shooting them. Not just with the rifle resting on the bench. Stand up, feel the weight. Try and picture what it would be like during an 8 hour course with spartan water breaks an no where or time to sit down and rest in the summer sun.

There are a lot of things you can do to reduce the weight of a rifle.

Government profile barrels cut down on weight. You can buy the lightest 4-rail hand guard in the class your desire for looks will allow (the lighter ones are usually 2 -4 more times expensive). You can use MOE hand guards instead like an above poster did (believe it or not they are as popular as four rail handguards especially amongst the AR snobs like myself). You can use a Micro style red dot rather than a full size one. If you look at those rifles with the extended hand guards there are a lot of other accessory choices that had cutting down the weight as a major priority.

So I am not trying to force you not to get the upper in the style you want. I am just pointing out that if you do it might be smart to think about the weight of that handguard and your other accessories and make choices accordingly. There are lots of light weight options out there for just about every type of accessory.

You have to think about the end result when buying your parts. The end result being will it be fun to shoot the way you plan to shoot it.

Bench rest shooting and plinking, weight is no big deal at all. Build a beast and it will still do the job. If the bench will be supporting the weight, then it doesn't matter.

Long range precission shooting, added weight can help control felt recoil and barrel lift so it can actually be a good thing.

If you plan on taking lots of carbine courses, weight will be something you'll notice...unless you are 18 and in perfect shape. You can still get the extended rail upper, at least half the rifles you see at the course will be the extended rail uppers, but think about the weight when adding your other accessories and you will be doing yourself a favor.

NHP1127
05-04-2011, 4:49 PM
My preference, fixed front sight and removable handguard. Works well for the military.
Regardless, good gun basics to learn how to shoot well with iron sights.