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View Full Version : Did This Rifle Influence Kalashnikov?


Excelsior
05-02-2011, 4:58 PM
Does anyone happen to know if this Remington Model 8 Police Rifle which was introduced in 1906 (shown with LEO-only 15 round detachable magazine) had an influence on the designs of Mikhail Kalashnikov?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Rifles/Mdl8a.jpg

mrvash
05-02-2011, 5:01 PM
Perhaps, but according to Kalashinkov himself, he was actually inspired by the German STG-44 when he was recovering from his injures he received from his duties as a tank commander.

ElvenSoul
05-02-2011, 5:07 PM
I think the greatet influence to the Assault Rifle was Clyde B's sawed off Browning. The cops started carrying Tompsons and Clyde noticed that the Tompson would not allways go thru a car door. Clyde got a BAR and cut the barrel to make it fit in fight inspired by cut off shotguns. Cops of the day feared this rifle.

ant71992
05-02-2011, 5:08 PM
yes indeed, i have read that somewhere else too.

Scott Connors
05-02-2011, 5:09 PM
Does anyone happen to know if this Remington Model 8 Police Rifle which was introduced in 1906 (shown with LEO-only 15 round detachable magazine) had an influence on the designs of Mikhail Kalashnikov?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Rifles/Mdl8a.jpg

According to C. J. Chivers' The Gun, Kalashnikov's original rifle, the AK-46, used a small selector level. Changes to this and the trigger mechanism were introduced by a design bureau led by Major Vladimir S. Deikin. (Chivers considers that Kalashnikov's prominence as the acknowledged designer was due to political considerations, ie the need for a proletarian hero, and that his basic design was extensively modified into the form we all love/loath today.) Chances are that the Remington Model 8 influenced somebody who had a hand in designing the safety/selector mechanism.

Excelsior
05-02-2011, 5:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLtGc3dR-tQ&feature=player_embedded

I'm amazed this firearm did not have greater influence on the arms used in WWII given the model above (with removable magazine) is essentially a 1929 design. Seems like it would have been a strong competitor to the Thompson and perhaps the carbine.

rojocorsa
05-02-2011, 9:19 PM
I've always thought this was a cool rifle that I don't know enough about...

AJAX22
05-02-2011, 9:37 PM
Remington model 8 is a recoil operated action with more in common with the 1919 than the ak47.

Scott Connors
05-09-2011, 10:39 PM
I think that when the OP asked about any influence of the Rem 8 on the AK, he was specifically referring to the selector/safety mechanism, not the method of operation. (From the photo I'd guess that the mag release may also have been borrowed, but I haven't examined the Remington so can't say for sure.

rojocorsa
05-09-2011, 10:49 PM
Looking at the shape of the receiver, and seeing that the weapon is recoil operated---it is safe to assume it's related to the A-5/Rem 11, right?

762.DEFENSE
05-10-2011, 9:22 AM
German STG-44.
http://operatorchan.org/k/arch/src/k71755_German%20WW2%20MP-44%20Erstes%20Sturmgewehr%2044%20in%20Kaliber.jpg

dieselpower
05-10-2011, 9:34 AM
From a guy who knows nothing about AKs...seems to me the Kalashnikov saw, handled maybe even owned a Rem 8. He took the workings / action STG44 into account. It seems reasonable he merged several guns he knew of.

RodFromGod86
05-10-2011, 9:42 AM
From a guy who knows nothing about AKs...seems to me the Kalashnikov saw, handled maybe even owned a Rem 8. He took the workings / action STG44 into account. It seems reasonable he merged several guns he knew of.


And don't forget the locking system of the M1 Garand/ M1 Carbine!

JagerTroop
05-10-2011, 10:16 AM
I think the greatet influence to the Assault Rifle was Clyde B's sawed off Browning. The cops started carrying Tompsons and Clyde noticed that the Tompson would not allways go thru a car door. Clyde got a BAR and cut the barrel to make it fit in fight inspired by cut off shotguns. Cops of the day feared this rifle.

The stock was also cut down, and a shoulder sling was used. If I'm not mistaken, this was known as a "whippit". As in, they could keep in concealed under a coat, then quickly "whippit" (whip it) out and start blasting.

Erin
05-10-2011, 11:17 AM
i have seen an interview from Kalashnikov where he very adamently states his weapon has nothing to do with "that german weapon" refering to the stg 44. he got a little agitated and said it has a completely differant operating system and is a all new design. this was on the history channel on guns of the world.
but like larry vickers said on his show tactical arms, momma didnt raise no fool.

chicoredneck
05-10-2011, 11:48 AM
According to C. J. Chivers' The Gun, Kalashnikov's original rifle, the AK-46, used a small selector level. Changes to this and the trigger mechanism were introduced by a design bureau led by Major Vladimir S. Deikin. (Chivers considers that Kalashnikov's prominence as the acknowledged designer was due to political considerations, ie the need for a proletarian hero, and that his basic design was extensively modified into the form we all love/loath today.) Chances are that the Remington Model 8 influenced somebody who had a hand in designing the safety/selector mechanism.

This is what I have read and have come to understand as well.

Most of the features of the Ak47 came from previous firerams. They took the fetrues they liked from several firearms and combined them together. Kalashnikov was simply the lead of one of the teams that designed the AK47. Many of the ideas and final production came from other people and even other design teams. If you look at the early prototype guns that were submitted for testing there were several that were mechanically very similar to the AK47, but came from other design teams. It appears that the soviets took features they liked form the early prototypes and combined them into one gun. For political reasons and because of his involement in the projct, Kalashnikov recived recognition.

The safety selector borrowed directly from the remington 8 and was simply modified for the purpose.

gun toting monkeyboy
05-10-2011, 12:09 PM
Yes, the Model 8 is a Browning design. It, and it's more modern version, the Model 81, were decent guns for their time. But they had limitations that kept them from being considered for a serious combat weapon. There are a lot of places dirt and mud can get into them. And the Model 8 was limited to the 4 proprietary cartridges by Remington. .25, .30, .32, and .35 Remington. It wasn't until just before WWII that the Model 81 was upgraded to .300 Savage as well. The also had a fixed magazine. There were a couple of shops around the country that would convert them to use detachable 15 or 20 round magazines, but due to the costs involved, not many of these conversions were done, or survive to this day. Those that do are really, really expensive. I have a couple of model 81s, one in .35 and one in .300 Savage. I like them, but they have some quirks. They are heavy. Very heavy for their size. And they kick like a freakin' mule. Realize, I am a big guy. And I can shoot my M95 Stutzen carbines with full powered 8x56R rounds all day. So when I say they kick, I am not giving you some pansy, keyboard commando whine here. They are almost as punishing as the mannlicher straight-pull carbines, while using a round on par with .30-30 Winchester. The reason is the design. It has big springs in it which use the recoil to work the action. The only problem is that they also transfer a good chunk of that energy to your shoulder. I have other, lighter-weight rifles in both of those calibers, and I can tell you neither one of them is all that punishing in a regular gun. That added recoil was one of the things that cut into the sales of these rifles untile Remington replaced they in 1950.

All that being said, they were still very popular in some limited areas. Police and prisons used them frequently. As did predetor control hunters, when using them to shoot coyotes and wolves from the slow-flying aircraft of the day. The .35 caliber version saw some limited action in WWI with the French. They liked them, especially with the larger magazine. But that never turned into an official contract. And there were some areas of the country that seemed to have a small following for the 8 and later 81. Places where you had close in shots frequently, like the North East and far South. If you poke around online, you should be able to find a collection of photos from a Canadian trapper spanning almost 50 years. He used a Model 8 in .25 Remington for everything from rabbits to moose that whole time. I don't have the link anymore, but it was quite a sight.

-Mb

(edit) here is the link to an abreviated page with a few of the photos. I can't find the larger one yet...

http://vintagesemiautorifle.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=hunters&action=display&thread=12

1911su16b870
05-10-2011, 12:34 PM
Perhaps, but according to Kalashinkov himself, he was actually inspired by the German STG-44 when he was recovering from his injures he received from his duties as a tank commander.

+1 stg 44

Scott Connors
05-10-2011, 6:19 PM
+1 stg 44

Kalashnikov's narrative changed ("evolved") over time, which is perhaps to be expected considering we're speaking of a period of >50 years. It is true that the MP 43/StG 44 series uses a different mechanism (tilting block vs rotating bolt, although both rifles have relatively massive bolt carriers), but the very similarity of appearance--the pistol grip, relatively straight buttstock design, high line-of-sight--indicate that the Soviets decided that they wanted something similar. The original AK47 rifle even used a stamped metal receiver like its German predecessor, although this was quickly replaced by a milled receiver due to their lack of expertise in manufacturing firearms in this manner.

While the M1 Garand and Carbine both lent features to the AK, this thread specifically asks about the Remington Model 8. I think that there were two features of the Model 8's safety that appealed to the Soviet designers: the first was that the safety acted as a dust cover while in the safe position, preventing the entry of dust, mud and snow into the operating mechanism, and the size of the lever itself made it easier to use while wearing gloves. This isn't to deny the genius of the design: the Kalashnikov rifle is one of the greatest firearms ever built. However, it did not spring out of Mikhail Timofeyevich's forehead like Athena did from that of Zeus. It grew out of his study, and that of his uncredited collaborators, of various other designs, both indigenous and foreign.

C_1
05-10-2011, 7:01 PM
The Russians took a good look at the STG 44, and the M1 Garand/carbine, among other firearms, when designing the AK. All I know is that there were 2 trials (Small Arms and Mortar Research & Proving ground - NIPSMVO), and there was the Sudaev AS-44, Bulkin AB-46 & TKB-415 and Dementiev KB-P-410. Also, Hugo Schmeisser, Vladimir Fyodorov, Alexey Sudayev, were all there as well. But yet, credit was given to an injured tank commander, Mikhail Kalashnikov, for designing the AK. I guess the need for a national hero, a classic story of rags to riches, was in order.

Edit: Oh yeah, Sudaev's AS-44 had a safety selector/dust cover "inspired" by the Browning's Rem model 8.

supersonic
05-10-2011, 8:34 PM
When I got mine (it's for sale, BTW:D), I could definitely tell that the safety was an influence on the AK design. They are nearly identical.
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/DSCN3191.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/DSCN3193.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/DSCN3196.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb181/giftedgiver/DSCN3197.jpg

MrPlink
05-11-2011, 12:23 AM
The Russians took a good look at the STG 44, and the M1 Garand/carbine, among other firearms, when designing the AK. All I know is that there were 2 trials (Small Arms and Mortar Research & Proving ground - NIPSMVO), and there was the Sudaev AS-44, Bulkin AB-46 & TKB-415 and Dementiev KB-P-410. Also, Hugo Schmeisser, Vladimir Fyodorov, Alexey Sudayev, were all there as well. But yet, credit was given to an injured tank commander, Mikhail Kalashnikov, for designing the AK. I guess the need for a national hero, a classic story of rags to riches, was in order.

Edit: Oh yeah, Sudaev's AS-44 had a safety selector/dust cover "inspired" by the Browning's Rem model 8.

I thought Federov died before WWII?
His design, IMO is the grandfather of the assault rifle.