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View Full Version : Is it legal to *find* hi cap magazines?


Mag_Rat
11-25-2006, 7:51 PM
[stupid example]Say I go to a dumpster find some ak 30 rd mags could I keep them?[/stupid example]:D

jumbopanda
11-25-2006, 7:56 PM
No.


word minimum.

SemiAutoSam
11-25-2006, 7:56 PM
Finding Magazines can be a religious experience.

I found a C MAG back in 1995 in "my truck" that I didn't even know I owned. As it turned out a gun buddy that owed me a bill left it with me when we loaded up after a gun show at the Reno Hilton.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/C-MAG2.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/C-MAG11.jpg

C.G.
11-25-2006, 8:01 PM
Finding Magazines can be a religious experience.

I found a C MAG back in 1995 in my truck that I didn't even know I owned. As it turned out a gun buddy that owed me a bill left it with me when we loaded up after a gun show at the Reno Hilton.

I wish I would find a truck that I didn't know I owned (especially now, since mine started to burn oil).:D

EBWhite
11-25-2006, 8:02 PM
As long as you say that you found then prior to 2000.

Mag_Rat
11-25-2006, 8:03 PM
Finding Magazines can be a religeous experience.

I found a C MAG back in 1995 in my truck that I didnt even know I owned. As it turned out a gun buddy that owed me a bill left it with me when we loaded up after a gun show at the Reno Hilton.

:eek: That's cazy, lucky you.


Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

Nothing about finding mags but oh well kalifornia is crazy like that.thnx

SemiAutoSam
11-25-2006, 8:05 PM
HA HA HA C.G.

Sam has 3 trucks for sale 1989 4wd toyota, 1981 1 ton chevy van /W350 eng T400 trans, 1986 chevy 1 ton 4wd 6.2D T400 Trans.

I wish I would find a truck that I didn't know I owned (especially now, since mine started to burn oil).:D

colossians323
11-25-2006, 8:07 PM
Yes as the law is written, it is 100% legal to find High Capacity magazines, see above to see that the prohibition of hi-caps, is not lent to finding.

SemiAutoSam
11-25-2006, 8:09 PM
SO are there any mags in the Calguns lost and found box?

LOL just make sure you lose it where I can find it.

cornholio1
11-25-2006, 8:22 PM
the word "generally" in the SB23 clause, is pretty grayish. So maybe its okay! =)

Pulsar
11-25-2006, 8:23 PM
What about when you buy a mini storage unit in auction, which often times all you can do is open the door and see the first layer of junk. And you load up all this stuff into your truck. Get home and start opening boxes and low and behold, you find a few hi-caps... just hypothetical of course.

SemiAutoSam
11-25-2006, 8:24 PM
WOW I have to go check a trailer that I never unpacked.

Thanks for the tip.

What about when you buy a mini storage unit in auction, which often times all you can do is open the door and see the first layer of junk. And you load up all this stuff into your truck. Get home and start opening boxes and low and behold, you find a few hi-caps... just hypothetical of course.

Mag_Rat
11-25-2006, 8:28 PM
Seriously I remember my dad buying a tool box at a yard sale the guy said somehting like " take it i'm not even gona look what is in it" . I remember a couple of mags being in there. So if it's legal to *find* i might have to do a FOD walk down in my dad's garage

Mud
11-25-2006, 8:31 PM
SO are there any mags in the Calguns lost and found box?

LOL just make sure you lose it where I can find it.

I know I left one of my M14 20rd mags at a 3-Gun Match at Chabot earlier in the year, didn't know about it till I cleaned out the Range back a week later.:mad: Now I count and re-count after every stage.

C.G.
11-25-2006, 8:37 PM
What about when you buy a mini storage unit in auction, which often times all you can do is open the door and see the first layer of junk. And you load up all this stuff into your truck. Get home and start opening boxes and low and behold, you find a few hi-caps... just hypothetical of course.

Where do you buy the mini storage unit? In an auction in Nevada?:D

five.five-six
11-25-2006, 8:56 PM
my understanding is that it is not ilegal to buy them.. according to the law.. if memory serves me.. it is ilegal to sell, import, manufacture, cause to manufacture or cause to import.... but nothing about buying or finding for that matter

Mag_Rat
11-25-2006, 8:57 PM
my understanding is that it is not ilegal to buy them.. according to the law.. if memory serves me.. it is ilegal to sell, import, manufacture, cause to manufacture or cause to import.... but nothing about buying or finding for that matter


He is right....:eek:

M. Sage
11-25-2006, 9:11 PM
the word "generally" in the SB23 clause, is pretty grayish. So maybe its okay! =)

"Generally" in that useage basically means "in pretty much every situation" you can't manufacture sell, import or cause to be imported, lend or borrow...

Since FINDING is none of the above... Hmm. I think I'm gonna have to keep my eyes open for M1 Carbine mags. I'm surprised a lot of the time the stuff I trip on in daily life.

cornholio1
11-25-2006, 9:22 PM
"Generally" in that useage basically means "in pretty much every situation" you can't manufacture sell, import or cause to be imported, lend or borrow...

It still implies there are exceptions. Anyways I was joking.

M. Sage
11-25-2006, 9:24 PM
Ahh. Didn't catch it. The laws are so crappy and easy to misunderstand...

hoffmang
11-25-2006, 9:28 PM
It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, cause to be manufactured, import into the state, keep for sale, or offer or expose for sale, or give or lend, any large-capacity magazine. (Penal Code § 12020(a)(2).)

There are a lot of holes in that definition.

-Gene

NeoWeird
11-25-2006, 9:37 PM
So I guess the ideal way to get mags would be to walk to the border of our state, have someone in the other state offer to sell, then they drop them, they roll into state lines, and then you pick them up.

- Nothing against the law with purchasing new magazines.

- The other person is not in the state, which is a requirment, so them offering for sale is not a crime.

- Gravity and/or inertia imported them.

- You acquired them through non-illegal means into your personal property.



The only person doing something bad was Gravity/Inertia. So everyone can go free, except Sir Isaac Newton!

icormba
11-25-2006, 9:46 PM
[stupid example]Say I go to a dumpster find some ak 30 rd mags could I keep them?[/stupid example]:D

as others said... No.
But on another note... I found that my AK mags (and a couple other mags) got all rusty while in storage these past few years! They clean up good though & thank goodness for bakelite.

hoffmang
11-25-2006, 10:16 PM
I would posit that its not entirely clear that it isn't ok to find them if you honestly found them.

Also note that if you have a corroded magazine, you can replace all the parts with new replacement parts serially without manufacturing a new high capacity magazine.

-Gene

11Z50
11-25-2006, 10:51 PM
Funny we should be talking about this....

Just the other day, I went to visit dear old Mom, and she told me I needed to get my stuff out of her storage shed. I had completely forgotten that I had anything there at all....

When I got out of the Army in 1978 I had left some of my stuff there. I opened up a box, and dang! A bunch of gun stuff I had forgot all about.

Those 30's fit right in my SU-16 nicely.

VeryCoolCat
11-25-2006, 10:54 PM
Beta C-Mags were pretty rare before 2000.... It wasn't until the sunset of the AW ban that everyone realized... if its banned that they really want it. :D

SemiAutoSam
11-25-2006, 10:57 PM
Maybe rare to you as you might not have hung in the same circles that I did. haven't you always lived in the PRC? I have about 15 years of my life that I have lived in free states.

Being a MG dealer I was buying and selling Beta's for a long time before they were popular. They are the only mag that functions good in Full auto fire.

Beta C-Mags were pretty rare before 2000.... It wasn't until the sunset of the AW ban that everyone realized... if its banned that they really want it. :D

Spiggy
11-25-2006, 11:19 PM
so in the hypothetical situation that you're gardening and dig up these magazines that were buried there long before the ban, this would be entirely legal? -Hypothetically of course :confused:

Hunter
11-25-2006, 11:38 PM
Beta C-Mags were pretty rare before 2000.... It wasn't until the sunset of the AW ban that everyone realized... if its banned that they really want it. :D


Rare??? Some, not all. One could buy all of the Ar-15 Cmags they wanted up to 1994 ban, they were not hard to fine at all. The hard to get ones were the Aug towers, Colt 9mm towers, MP5 towers but not the AR-15/M-16 units. Now the prices were another thing, they had hit the $500/ea in lots of places by 9/94, but in early '94 one could still get quite a few in the $275-$300 range.

grammaton76
11-25-2006, 11:41 PM
I always thought it would be funny if folks were to get a (grumbling) answer back from the DOJ that it's legal to have an "easter egg hunt" for mags.

Including that it wouldn't be illegal for there to be an entry fee to the easter egg hunt area.

That's so tainted and gray and probably prosecutable that it's not even funny, but I imagine if it were viable, that AM and Iggy would find new reasons to stay awake at night... :)

NeoWeird
11-25-2006, 11:44 PM
No, AM would just get a job with Websters to change the definition of "find" without giving us an oppotrunity to register our newly identified assault dictionary and thesarus.

The SoCal Gunner
11-26-2006, 3:18 AM
What if someone were to purchase a magazine that was advertised as a 10 rounder but when it arrived, it actually held 30 rnds. Lets say that the mag came from out of state, would I... I mean the buyer be in any trouble or just the seller?

Not saying that this has happened but it could have happened and its too bad that when it could have happened it was a cheapie mag.

M14Gunman
11-26-2006, 5:42 AM
As long as you say that you found then prior to 2000.

This can be dangerous because now that the AW ban lifted they have magazines on the market that were made after 2004... and they can prove it...

Be carefull. Make sure you keep the magazines you "found" before 2001 do not mix with the magazines your buddies took the the Nevada gun shooting event.....

Rascal
11-26-2006, 7:57 AM
This can be dangerous because now that the AW ban lifted they have magazines on the market that were made after 2004... and they can prove it...

Be carefull. Make sure you keep the magazines you "found" before 2001 do not mix with the magazines your buddies took the the Nevada gun shooting event.....

It is perfectly OK to replace your old beat up mag body with a new mag body, if need be.

It's up to them to prove that you didn't have them before the cutoff date, not you.

colossians323
11-26-2006, 8:04 AM
as others said... No.
But on another note... I found that my AK mags (and a couple other mags) got all rusty while in storage these past few years! They clean up good though & thank goodness for bakelite.

So where do you get the answer of no, by using the current law?

Diablo
11-26-2006, 9:29 AM
M14Gunman
This can be dangerous because now that the AW ban lifted they have magazines on the market that were made after 2004... and they can prove it...

How can they prove this?

SemiAutoSam
11-26-2006, 9:32 AM
Maybe by the dates of mfg that are stamped into the mags.

How can they prove this?

Diablo
11-26-2006, 9:33 AM
What if no dates or numbers are on them?

NorCal MedTac
11-26-2006, 9:46 AM
Maybe by the dates of mfg that are stamped into the mags.

You mean the date that was stamped on the replacement body for the standard capacity magazine that you found?

SemiAutoSam
11-26-2006, 9:47 AM
Well in that case the only way to tell what the age is would be by the firearm that they fit.

And or if the mag was a colt ar15 vintage one we know what the old vintage mags look like and if it had those characteristics like the horse in the circle or specific other markings that weren't made any more could most likely know that it was older than 2000.

But in the case of a new weapon that wasn't produced until after 2000 we then know that most likely the mag is of the same age as the weapon it fits.

Not like some of my old 30, 40 round grease gun mags.

And there is always the replacement part angle. But as to myself I wouldn't own mags that were mfg prior to 2000 even if they are replacement parts I just don't need the hassle from the Man.

What if no dates or numbers are on them?

M. Sage
11-26-2006, 10:52 AM
Ahh, but if you were dumpster divin' and found a couple of standard-cap mags for a gun that was designed after 2000, it'd still be legal. :P Awesome. :D

They still have to prove importation or manufacture. If you FIND the mags, you did neither.

Wulf
11-26-2006, 11:10 AM
Sounds like maybe someone needs to open a gun store on a hill overlooking california. You call give a credit card number and pay the shot owner to throw away a couple of high caps for you. He could then walk to a window clearly labeled "trash" and throw the mags away. Well, they'd probably try to prosecute you for some kind of illegal dumping operation.

blackberg
11-26-2006, 12:54 PM
... Well, they'd probably try to prosecute you for some kind of illegal dumping operation.

But you are not the dumper....You are helping "Keep California Clean"!

Poohgyrr
11-26-2006, 2:26 PM
They'd just arrest you and say you bought them. Then let you pay an att'y to fight it out in court.

Dont Tread on Me
11-26-2006, 2:44 PM
I know I left one of my M14 20rd mags at a 3-Gun Match at Chabot earlier in the year, didn't know about it till I cleaned out the Range back a week later.:mad: Now I count and re-count after every stage.

I do the same thing. Be careful you come home with the same mags. I once did a final check in my trunk at Chabot and found I had the right number but one was a stray stamped "LEO only" with a 2003 date of manufacture on it. Had to walk around the range to find my mag. I left the LEO mag on a bench.

This is why I have that girly blue tape on all my mags...

I would hate to loose a M14 mag. Those things are expensive!

Mag_Rat
11-26-2006, 2:46 PM
They'd just arrest you and say you bought them. Then let you pay an att'y to fight it out in court.


Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

I think it's legal to buy them lol

hoffmang
11-26-2006, 3:29 PM
This is one of those laws where selling them or importing them is illegal, but buying them is not. I love it when legislators don't draft well.

-Gene

SemiAutoSam
11-26-2006, 3:33 PM
The first thing that came to mind was a politician in the water about to capsize.

This is one of those laws where selling them or importing them is illegal, but buying them is not. I love it when legislators don't draft well.

-Gene

RANGER295
11-26-2006, 3:45 PM
I am not comfortable with “finding” preban mags. Though the storage container thing could easily happen. Back in the late 1990’s I bought a couple of rolling tool chests and some smaller tool boxes at an auction. They were locked so I had no idea what was in them. When I got them home and opened them up I found that they were full of nothing but gun parts. There was one drawer that had just mags. I still haven’t figured out what a few of them are for. One tool box had a bunch of AK parts that I wish I had kept but I traded them for other stuff. I did keep the mags though and a lot of the parts though. I can’t tell you how many gun related things I have picked up at estate sales and yard sales.

xenophobe
11-26-2006, 3:57 PM
This is silly and splitting hairs. "finding" them. lol. Someone really needs to write a DOJ letter. I'd love to hear the response.

"So, your buddy lost these 20rnd M1A mags, and you just happened to find them and keep them"...

But yeah, all you need to do is look around a little harder than most folks... you'll find them. High capacity mags are littered around the streets of America like a war zone. lmao

hoffmang
11-26-2006, 4:13 PM
It is unlawful for any person to manufacture, cause to be manufactured, import into the state, keep for sale, or offer or expose for sale, or give or lend, any large-capacity magazine. (Penal Code § 12020(a)(2).)

It is really hard to be guilty of this. The best a DA can do is by inference show that you had to have imported post 2000 high capacity magazines. Note that unless it can be proved that you didn't buy them from someone else who illegally imported them, you are not guilty. The key issue here is that it is not illegal to possess any magazine. The issue is only the inference that you imported them - not the possession of them.

-Gene

M14Gunman
11-27-2006, 2:47 PM
Well in that case the only way to tell what the age is would be by the firearm that they fit.

And or if the mag was a colt ar15 vintage one we know what the old vintage mags look like and if it had those characteristics like the horse in the circle or specific other markings that weren't made any more could most likely know that it was older than 2000.

But in the case of a new weapon that wasn't produced until after 2000 we then know that most likely the mag is of the same age as the weapon it fits.

Not like some of my old 30, 40 round grease gun mags.

And there is always the replacement part angle. But as to myself I wouldn't own mags that were mfg prior to 2000 even if they are replacement parts I just don't need the hassle from the Man.

Purchase date of the rifle really does not matter. They can prove it in the manufacturing. You can replace the parts of the magazine but one of the parts has to be original. Through metalergy analysis and manufacturer tooling analysis it is possible to trace the origins of a magazine and its parts. I am not saying that it is probable. The chances are very remote but don't think that it is impossible... do you not watch forensics files? ;)

Just be careful. If you buy replacement mag parts made after 2004, be sure to keep at least one of your original parts on the magazine.

Aluisious
11-27-2006, 2:48 PM
[stupid example]Say I go to a dumpster find some ak 30 rd mags could I keep them?[/stupid example]:D
I'm guessing no...

Aluisious
11-27-2006, 2:54 PM
What if someone were to purchase a magazine that was advertised as a 10 rounder but when it arrived, it actually held 30 rnds. Lets say that the mag came from out of state, would I... I mean the buyer be in any trouble or just the seller?

Not saying that this has happened but it could have happened and its too bad that when it could have happened it was a cheapie mag.
I once bought USP .45 magazines that were supposed to be ten rounders. They were ProMags and the follower design was so flimsy and cheap one or two of them easily fit 11 rounds. I figured that out at the range as I was absentmindedly loading them and noticed my neat little rows of 10 rounds in the ammo boxes were getting messed up.

I promptly returned those to the seller in Oregon and informed him that the next time he tried to foist a felony on me I'd be happy to let California know he was up to.

Dont Tread on Me
11-27-2006, 3:12 PM
If you buy replacement mag parts made after 2004, be sure to keep at least one of your original parts on the magazine.

Can you point me to the source of this information please? I've not read this requirment myself. There is a good FAQ letter floating around calguns from AM on the mag issue.

megavolt121
11-27-2006, 3:19 PM
Mods,

Can you lock/delete this thread? This is putting up too many hypothetical situations that's going to get people into trouble.

Legalities of Mags have been discussed to death here.

blkA4alb
11-27-2006, 3:38 PM
Just be careful. If you buy replacement mag parts made after 2004, be sure to keep at least one of your original parts on the magazine.
No.

I second the motion for a lock (I don't moderate here.) These threads always turn out like this.

gose
11-27-2006, 4:00 PM
Even if I really found a mag at the range, I'm not sure that I would want/dare to keep it. Since I didn't live in California when the ban took effect the potential side effects wouldn't be worth it.
I'd rather spend my money on practicing mag changes than on lawyer fees ;)

bwiese
11-27-2006, 4:03 PM
No.

I second the motion for a lock (I don't moderate here.) These threads always turn out like this.

Yeah. It's one thing to discuss what laws don't cover or prohibit (like OLL stuff)
and thus are entirely legal, vs. these kinda situations, "well, they can't prove XX...".

BTW, Lukas, pleasure meeting you again at the CG ShootNQ. Nice trigger on that rifle!

stator
11-27-2006, 4:04 PM
So I guess, in reading all of this thread, we need to get Santa to lose a whole bunch of high cap mags over the side of his sleigh while over California so we can find them??????

EBWhite
11-27-2006, 4:06 PM
So I guess, in reading all of this thread, we need to get Santa to lose a whole bunch of high cap mags over the side of his sleigh while over California so we can find them??????


Just make sure you say it was Xmas '99...

RANGER295
11-27-2006, 4:09 PM
Does anyone actually know of anyone being prosecuted for any hi-cap related charges other than being caught bringing them back from an out of state gun show?

megavolt121
11-27-2006, 4:10 PM
So I guess, in reading all of this thread, we need to get Santa to lose a whole bunch of high cap mags over the side of his sleigh while over California so we can find them??????

LOL, But than AM will go after Santa!!

mltrading
11-27-2006, 4:37 PM
If I were to "find" some standard-cap mags, I would not let anyone know. :)

Happy holidays!!!

EBWhite
11-27-2006, 4:39 PM
If I were to "find" some standard-cap mags, I would not let anyone know. :)

Happy holidays!!!


that was the best advice of the year... :cool:

blkA4alb
11-27-2006, 5:16 PM
BTW, Lukas, pleasure meeting you again at the CG ShootNQ. Nice trigger on that rifle!
You too, thanks! What you didn't see was me shoot a fly off my target ;) .

Jicko
11-27-2006, 5:30 PM
Can some mod CLOSE this non-sense!?

IF YOU own some "more than 10 rounds" capacity magazine before 2000, then, continue to own them, use them, repair them....

IF NOT.... then FORGET about them.... as simple as that....

chickenfried
11-27-2006, 8:30 PM
Or is it?

hmmm (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=42804)

:p
.... as simple as that....

Matt C
11-27-2006, 9:20 PM
Heck no, this is my favourite thread of the month.

SemiAutoSam
11-27-2006, 9:32 PM
This is alot more fun than 10 10 round mags anyday

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/C-MAG2.jpg
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/C-MAG12.jpg

And I just found this item to make the Spring stay in its hole one step better than a SRB hmmmmmmmmmm

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/mag-lock/dd_pulldowels.jpg

Got Stuff?
11-27-2006, 9:49 PM
I think this is a good topic.

In all seriousness, I'm sure we have all been amazed at what can be found in the desert or mountains while hunting/shooting! Not to mention the stuff people throw away because they simply don't know, don't care or are mis-informed!

...Robert...

.50DE
11-27-2006, 10:03 PM
Mods,

Can you lock/delete this thread? This is putting up too many hypothetical situations that's going to get people into trouble.

Legalities of Mags have been discussed to death here.

I agree, we have given enough info to DOJ. Its common for them to troll here, why give them more topics for future regs or the pot stiring they like to do :rolleyes:

colossians323
11-28-2006, 5:50 AM
Am: Did you see thread 428028 on cal guns?

Brady bunch: Yes, can you believe what those gun nuts are talking about?

AM: We're going to put a stop to allo this by using SB23.

Brady bunch: How are you going to accomplish that?

AM: Well, we're going to have another regulatory meeting, and define the definition of purchasing to encompass finding. Jeff really appreciates all the emails that these generate. We'll get hese gun nuts once and for all.

Brady bunch: Who is this AM that they keep reffering to as having her career ended?

AM: I don't know, but you know how those gun nuts are, wouldn't be suprised if they had a secret code, and it meant SAS.

M. Sage
11-28-2006, 6:07 AM
Even if I really found a mag at the range, I'm not sure that I would want/dare to keep it. Since I didn't live in California when the ban took effect the potential side effects wouldn't be worth it.
I'd rather spend my money on practicing mag changes than on lawyer fees ;)

Well, if I found a mag at the range, I'd have to turn it in to lost and found.

If I found it on BLM land... Woot for me!

Big LOL @ Colossians' post!

I don't see where this can cause any trouble. The law plainly does NOT say anything keeping you from posessing or FINDING a standard capacity magazine.

Dont Tread on Me
11-28-2006, 7:28 AM
Am: Did you see thread 428028 on cal guns?

Brady bunch: Yes, can you believe what those gun nuts are talking about?


You have to read this with Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy voices in mind. It cracked me up.

DOJ/Brady gun banning team.
http://www.neu-bybarny.de/oli2.jpg

xenophobe
11-28-2006, 10:20 AM
You have to read this with Stan Laurel and Oliver Hardy voices in mind. It cracked me up.

Funny you should post that, I heard the voices of Bud Abbott and Lou Costello while I was reading it... lmao

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8485/side18yv4.gif