PDA

View Full Version : FFL charging sales tax on out of state purchase?


genesis121
05-02-2011, 6:50 AM
I am interested in purchasing a handgun online and having it transfered to my local FFL. He told me that I would still have to pay CA sales tax on it. So I would pay him sale tax on something that he didn't sell me that I bought online out of state? Anybody else hear of this?

paul0660
05-02-2011, 6:55 AM
Yes, it is proper.

JagerTroop
05-02-2011, 6:55 AM
Yep. It's the law. California has essentially turned Ca gun dealers into tax collectors.

By law, you must report all online purchases (that you didn't pay tax on) on your tax return. It's called "use tax".

The penalties for the Ca dealers imposed by the BOE for not collecting sales tax on out of state transfers/purchases are pretty severe.

bcpucky
05-02-2011, 6:56 AM
Yeah, I've heard and read that thats pretty typical. OTOH I've heard that SOME FFL"s don't charge tax, just a flat rate. You may want to ask around for other FFL's charges, etc.

Oceanbob
05-02-2011, 7:08 AM
Yeah, I've heard and read that thats pretty typical. OTOH I've heard that SOME FFL"s don't charge tax, just a flat rate. You may want to ask around for other FFL's charges, etc.

These days 'most' charge the Sales Tax.

All charge a flat rate.

Mine charges $75 to receive the weapon
Plus the tax.

shooterdude
05-02-2011, 7:12 AM
I am interested in purchasing a handgun online and having it transfered to my local FFL. He told me that I would still have to pay CA sales tax on it. So I would pay him sale tax on something that he didn't sell me that I bought online out of state? Anybody else hear of this?

You are not paying HIM the tax, he is just collecting it for the state and sending it to them.

yzernie
05-02-2011, 7:20 AM
The dealers who are not collecting the sales/use tax will be in for a rude awakening here very soon. The BoE does not take kindly to businesses who do not follow their rules.

Onlyincali
05-02-2011, 7:27 AM
So when they send the taxes in "for you" do they send it with your name linked to it? IE: will it show up on your tax papers at the end of the year? How do you know they are even sending them in?

Also, how can they legally be forced to collect the tax? They aren't selling the item......how can they be FORCED to collect tax on it? Just curious...

Does this apply to good purchased from a PERSON and sent to an ffl?

halifax
05-02-2011, 7:48 AM
See this STICKEY (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=366781)

dfletcher
05-02-2011, 8:17 AM
Isn't one of the goals of the CFLC program to track which FFL gets which gun and allow the state to go back & check for their compliance on various state laws? Using CFLC won't the state be able to say to a particular CA FFL "show us transaction # 12345" and then pick apart whether they followed every CA law known to man on the sale?

biker777
05-02-2011, 8:19 AM
So when they send the taxes in "for you" do they send it with your name linked to it? IE: will it show up on your tax papers at the end of the year? How do you know they are even sending them in?

Also, how can they legally be forced to collect the tax? They aren't selling the item......how can they be FORCED to collect tax on it? Just curious...

Does this apply to good purchased from a PERSON and sent to an ffl?


My FFL told me it does not apply to private party transfers from out of state...

JDW67
05-02-2011, 8:22 AM
Find a different vendor

brianm767
05-02-2011, 8:46 AM
Do you ever notice when you do your state taxes, it specifically ask you if you bought any thing over the internet Buds, Ebay etc.. ? they want to know if your buying new stuff on line from out of state , because you are supposed to pay taxes on it, if the dealer doesn't collect it, you are legally required to declare it on your taxes and pay it your self, but most dealers do it for us, I believe they are required to .

Taxes should not be collected if gun is purchased through a private party, unless a dealer arranged the price/purchase.

advocatusdiaboli
05-02-2011, 9:18 AM
You are supposed to pay California State Sales Tax those on-line out-of-state transactions just like you are supposed to pay sales tax when you buy on Amazon or other on-line retail site. But many people dont pay in either case because they are not forced to by the out-of-state seller or the in-state agent (FFL in this case).

But the State of California legitimately (they get to make the rules) claims you must pay. As desperate states search for low hanging revenue fruit, expect this to become heated between the state and brick and mortar retailers and the on-line merchants.

It all amounts to your view on the likelihood of enforceability and your appetite for risk. If you want to be safe, pay your taxes.

Hell hath no fury like a women, oops I mean tax collector scorned.

HatersLOVEme : )
05-02-2011, 10:02 AM
I was looking for a new shotgun and considered buying it out of state or Socal but between the FFL to FFL transfer and tax it killed any deal I'd have got : (

8 out of 10 places I called made mention they would charge me tax if I got a weapon from out of state .

One even tried if I was getting a shotgun shipped from another part of CA. lol .

c483125117
05-02-2011, 11:39 AM
"Use tax" should be reported and paid for by the consumer when they file their state taxes, not collected by the business. However, I understand that the BOE is threatning dealers as being "liable" for unpaid taxes, so I understand why the dealers are collecting it.

Bobby Ricigliano
05-02-2011, 11:45 AM
File this under "More Reasons to Hate California". Funding for welfare, WIC, EBT has got to come from somewhere.

edlegault
05-02-2011, 12:05 PM
I just read some of the notes on the BOE site regarding out of state firearms purchases. A 1995 response letter to a dealer or purchaser requesting this info said that, yes, the transferring dealer must include the other out of state seller's sales on his CA sales tax form and charge sales tax to the buyer because the CA dealer is acting as an "agent" of the out of state dealer.:(

On the other hand, a letter in 200x told the calif purchaser/dealer that if all the dealer did was transfer the gun in regards to a ppt or out of state purchase and the firearm was not on consignment sale here in CA, then the buyer was responsible for the use tax at state income tax time.:confused:

Confusing to say the least. Either way a buyer of an out of state purchase is required to pay the sales/use tax.:rolleyes:

scootle
05-02-2011, 12:13 PM
yeah, it sucks, but at this point, what can we do... our state is broke, they want every cent they can get!

glock7
05-02-2011, 6:28 PM
File this under "More Reasons to Hate California". Funding for welfare, WIC, EBT has got to come from somewhere.
^ uh huh you've got that right...

LibertySympathizer
05-02-2011, 7:31 PM
Does it still apply if you are purchasing from an out of state dealer but the item is used?

a1c
05-02-2011, 7:35 PM
Does it still apply if you are purchasing from an out of state dealer but the item is used?

Yes. This isn't Europe - we pay sales taxes, even on previously used items. Remember - the tax is on the sale.

Kanester
05-02-2011, 8:06 PM
To me this is just another reason to buy from a LGS. I am BIG on buying stuff from the net (200+ deals on ebay, amazon, etc.), but even with the bargains on sites like buds, etc. when you add transfer fees, setting up with a local FFL, and have to pay the sales tax in most cases anyway, I just dont see the effort worth saving the extra $30-40. I just picked up my brand new G17 from Faith Armory in Temecula a couple weeks ago (Nate is great to deal with btw) for $539 +fees, tax etc. Ended up around $615 out the door. I could have maybe saved a few bucks buying online, but its also nice to be able to see/hold the gun you are actually purchasing. Also something to be said for supporting the local guys who took to time to show a newbie like me the basics of choosing a firearm.

Rudolf the Red
05-02-2011, 8:06 PM
I have had only one customer balk at paying sales tax on a new gun from an out-of-state dealer. I simply told him to keep doing what he was doing....somewhere else. I shipped his gun back to where it came from. That was the easiest $12 to toss away ever. :)

Q619
05-02-2011, 8:19 PM
The only times I'll get a gun out of state is if I'm saving over $100, I couldn't find the gun anywhere else or ordered something custom built. I just placed an order on an LRB build so that'll be my next :D

Paying taxes is just part of doing business (you were going to pay them if buying from brick and mortar anyhow, TINSTAAFL...for MOST of us)....after all: How else are we going to pay for the medical treatment of illegals birthing their anchor babies and all the lovely social programs :D?

Cyc Wid It
05-02-2011, 8:33 PM
Why does every thread remotely involving tax devolve into political rambling? Keep that crap in off-topic.

Lc17smp
05-02-2011, 8:34 PM
Is this really a "USE" tax? If one is buying rare/expensive guns that won't be used does the tax still apply? A dumb question for a dumb law.:rolleyes:

yzernie
05-02-2011, 10:03 PM
"Use tax" should be reported and paid for by the consumer when they file their state taxes, not collected by the business. However, I understand that the BOE is threatning dealers as being "liable" for unpaid taxes, so I understand why the dealers are collecting it.
Sections 495.0843 and 495.0848 of the tax code.

Noobie
05-02-2011, 10:38 PM
Will there be tax collected on a transfer if it is a trade and not a sale? If so, what value is used to figure the tax? If no, why can't an ffl list your transfer as a trade and then charge no tax, even if it is a sale, thereby making more $$$ off you? What if I have a stupid friend who sells me a gun worth $2k for one hundred dollars, I only pay tax on the purchase price right?
Anyone have thoughts on these scenarios?

Q619
05-02-2011, 11:21 PM
Will there be tax collected on a transfer if it is a trade and not a sale? If so, what value is used to figure the tax? If no, why can't an ffl list your transfer as a trade and then charge no tax, even if it is a sale, thereby making more $$$ off you? What if I have a stupid friend who sells me a gun worth $2k for one hundred dollars, I only pay tax on the purchase price right?
Anyone have thoughts on these scenarios?

Private party transactions aren't supposed to be taxed even if from out of state (to my understanding). Only guns bought from a business/internet dealer are supposed to be subject.

a1c
05-03-2011, 1:04 PM
Private party transactions aren't supposed to be taxed even if from out of state (to my understanding). Only guns bought from a business/internet dealer are supposed to be subject.

Depends on the amount. If you start selling stuff in the five figure range on a yearly basis, expect to be hit with a sales tax if you ever get audited, even if you're not a registered business or individual.

BillPear
05-03-2011, 3:58 PM
The only thing I will say on this subject is that 2 of 2 of the FFL's I spoke to about receiving the Les Baer I bought last month said no to sales tax. When the gun arrived the price on the invoice was blank, whic left them less options on knowing what I actually paid.

Noobie
05-03-2011, 6:24 PM
Private party transactions aren't supposed to be taxed even if from out of state (to my understanding). Only guns bought from a business/internet dealer are supposed to be subject.

I DRoS'd a LRB M25 receiver last month that I purchased from a private party from out of state and was charged tax. At the time it was a good deal (LRB has since lowered prices), but it was not cheap. Unfortunately, the ffl I used charged me tax, and somehow they knew what I paid the other party.
On the 11th day I went to pick up my receiver, armed with this info "This is why I collect sales tax when the firearm is coming in from a business out of state (not a private individual).", and "FFLs should not be collecting SALES TAX on transfers of occasional or private party sales.".
from this thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=366781

In the end I paid the tax, and the ffl still believes they were acting lawfully. If I buy a used firearm again I will get info from other local ffls as to their practices before I spend/give over $100.00 based upon un-clear information. I'll work just as hard to save my money as I did to earn it.

yzernie
05-03-2011, 7:20 PM
This is the process, if you purchase fron an out of state business sales tax has to be charged. If you purchase from a private party that is considered an occasional sale and not subject to the tax.

Please remember, the FFLs do not do this by choice as this is a mandate set forth by the California Board of Equalization. FFLs who do not collect the sales/use tax will regret that decision when (not if, but when) they get audited by the BoF.

gatdammit
05-03-2011, 9:33 PM
Wait so... I'm confused... someone mentioned Amazon up there. We are SUPPOSED to pay taxes on the stuff we buy online? I thought people bought stuff online to specifically save on the tax. I'm not just talking about gun related stuff. You mean it's OUR responsibility to pony up the taxes on the stuff we buy over the internet?

BigRich
05-03-2011, 10:27 PM
Wait so... I'm confused... someone mentioned Amazon up there. We are SUPPOSED to pay taxes on the stuff we buy online? I thought people bought stuff online to specifically save on the tax. I'm not just talking about gun related stuff. You mean it's OUR responsibility to pony up the taxes on the stuff we buy over the internet?

Yup.

mroels
05-04-2011, 12:21 AM
What amount do we pay taxes on? What msrp for a gun is in CA or what the seller claims to be charging us for it? What if the vendor does send an invoice and you tell your local ffl you only paid $150 for a $500 gun?

Taxes are getting crazy. Picked up a new cell phone the other day on a promotion and with contract extension, favored customer status etc...phone ended up costing me $60 but I guess in CA you have to pay sales tax based on full retail price of the phone. Tax ended up being almost the same as was I paid for the phone.

PlacerTactical
05-04-2011, 6:59 AM
What amount do we pay taxes on? What msrp for a gun is in CA or what the seller claims to be charging us for it? What if the vendor does send an invoice and you tell your local ffl you only paid $150 for a $500 gun?

Taxes are getting crazy. Picked up a new cell phone the other day on a promotion and with contract extension, favored customer status etc...phone ended up costing me $60 but I guess in CA you have to pay sales tax based on full retail price of the phone. Tax ended up being almost the same as was I paid for the phone.

Tax is on the purchase price. If an invoice is included, the price on the invoice is what is taxed. If no price is given on an invoice, generally MSRP is used.
I have bought vehicles from out of state and DMV collects the sales tax on them when transferring the papers too. It just really sucks that the state makes us the tax collectors on out-of-state transfers.

Rafale
05-04-2011, 7:17 AM
This is the process, if you purchase fron an out of state business sales tax has to be charged. If you purchase from a private party that is considered an occasional sale and not subject to the tax.

Please remember, the FFLs do not do this by choice as this is a mandate set forth by the California Board of Equalization. FFLs who do not collect the sales/use tax will regret that decision when (not if, but when) they get audited by the BoF.

My FFL told me that his tax attorney told him that he did not have to collect sales tax on guns and he has been in business for 10+ years.

JDW67
05-04-2011, 8:12 AM
Wait so... I'm confused... someone mentioned Amazon up there. We are SUPPOSED to pay taxes on the stuff we buy online? I thought people bought stuff online to specifically save on the tax. I'm not just talking about gun related stuff. You mean it's OUR responsibility to pony up the taxes on the stuff we buy over the internet?

Yep, but the state can't prove anything so don't worry about it. The main reason I buy on-line is to avoid the state taxes.

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 8:29 AM
So, what I don't get is why are we not sabotaging the tax by having buds/outofdatetransferer simply list the transaction as $10 bucks on the invoice. Sure, I will pay a sales tax on $10.

Considering this is what people have been doing to the DMV for decades. Is it against the law? Sure, good luck trying to prove it. Our goal as citizens should be to starve the state of its taxes. Why? Its like a retroactive vote of the people, we can't get them to behave through the ballot box, or the courts, and since we don't want a revolution yet we can do a bloodless one and start finding every way we can remove their tax base from them. Starve the bastards out.

I am still waiting for the day they take a page from the Middle Ages and start sending armed tax collectors door to door to "forcibly" take "taxes" from people.

By the way, fighting taxes or the concept of 'starving the government' is a form of social objection to the action of the government. A protest. There is a reason why we have Conscientious Objector status in this country. Read up on Tax Resistance. I am saying this because of the "you should pay your taxes" people here on this site. Tax Resistance is a recognized form of social protest, it should be exercised. Somehow, the sheep in this country have had that part trained out of them. Its not just about war, the so called Tea Partiers say they protest taxes and make a big stink but then they just go about paying them. If they don't agree with taxes they should work to undermine them in every way they can get away with. I see Tax Resistance as one step to always take before having to resort to the Ammo Box.

HPGunner
05-04-2011, 8:38 AM
I say find a different FFL - I know of two in and around LA/OC that I would do out of state transfers for a flat fee (one charges $75 and the other one charges $10 more but is a little closer drive for me). No sales tax is collected. They both tell me it's the buyer's responsibility to report sales tax to the great state of California. All they do is the transfer.

How's it different from buying a new flat screen TV online at Amazon from a non-California vendor to avoid sales tax? Online vendors only charges sales tax to sales within the state they are operating in. The buyer is suppose to report the use tax on these items. I do every year on my tax return. :shifty:

halifax
05-04-2011, 8:43 AM
My FFL told me that his tax attorney told him that he did not have to collect sales tax on guns and he has been in business for 10+ years.

The CPA (a friend) I talked to a few years back also told me I didn't have to collect sales tax on out-of-state retail sales. Then I printed-out the relevant BOE annotations and showed them to her. She was very surprised but changed her opinion. Gun dealers are between a rock and a hard place on this and are being singled-out by the BOE (because they can, I suppose).

I hope your FFL's tax attorney will stand by him when the time comes.

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 8:44 AM
I do every year on my tax return. :shifty:

And you got such a smashing deal, how could you pass up that new flatscreen TV for 10 cents? I loved mine at that price. Of course the bastards charged me $1200 in shipping and handling.

ZirconJohn
05-04-2011, 8:49 AM
So, what I don't get is why are we not sabotaging the tax by having buds/outofdatetransferer simply list the transaction as $10 bucks on the invoice. Sure, I will pay a sales tax on $10.

Considering this is what people have been doing to the DMV for decades. Is it against the law? Sure, good luck trying to prove it. Our goal as citizens should be to starve the state of its taxes. Why? Its like a retroactive vote of the people, we can't get them to behave through the ballot box, or the courts, and since we don't want a revolution yet we can do a bloodless one and start finding every way we can remove their tax base from them. Starve the bastards out.

I am still waiting for the day they take a page from the Middle Ages and start sending armed tax collectors door to door to "forcibly" take "taxes" from people.

By the way, fighting taxes or the concept of 'starving the government' is a form of social objection to the action of the government. A protest. There is a reason why we have Conscientious Objector status in this country. Read up on Tax Resistance. I am saying this because of the "you should pay your taxes" people here on this site. Tax Resistance is a recognized form of social protest, it should be exercised. Somehow, the sheep in this country have had that part trained out of them. Its not just about war, the so called Tea Partiers say they protest taxes and make a big stink but then they just go about paying them. If they don't agree with taxes they should work to undermine them in every way they can get away with. I see Tax Resistance as one step to always take before having to resort to the Ammo Box.

No. no, no, no, no... that is NOT the way to fight CA Use Tax... NO!

Here's what you do... :thumbsup:

Get your own FFL Class 1 License, start your own firearms business... file a
fictitious business name, file with the CA State Board of Equalization etc,
etc, etc... believe me... there is MUCH more to do than this, then...

Then advertize your business (your money) and indicate that you DO NOT
charge out of State shipments of CA Sales Tax...!

Why HALE... I'll buy from you... :yes:

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 8:52 AM
No. no, no, no, no... that is NOT the way to fight CA Use Tax... NO!

Here's what you do... :thumbsup:

Get your own FFL Class 1 License, start your own firearms business... file a
fictitious business name, file with the CA State Board of Equalization etc,
etc, etc... believe me... there is MUCH more to do than this, then...

Then advertize your business (your money) and indicate that you DO NOT
charge out of State shipments of CA Sales Tax...!

Why HALE... I'll buy from you... :yes:
Except that if the state has a law requiring you to collect you have to take that into account. The goal is to avoid collisions with the government. Taking them on head on usually results in a messy situation. It is better to simply side-step rather than "out right violate". Think single-shot conversion. Eventually they close all the loopholes and become so odeus and oppressive that you have to violate. However, at that point, you have a Revolution on your hands anyways...

Remember, as a business, I can sell my pistols for 10 Cents but charge a "labor and stocking fee" of whatever I want as long as the customer is informed up front of the existence of such a fee. Fex in the advertisement: Glock 30 on sale now for $450.00! (ask about our special pricing when you pay our Labor and Restocking Fee!!! Members Only!). In fact businesses do this every day when running specials and adds. Sometimes freebie specials when bought with something else are rung up as 1 cent when bought with.... said other item, while normally the item sells for $10 if bought separately. You do not get charged the sales tax on the item worth $10 when you get it for 1 cent, you pay on the 1 cent.

So your Glock lists as $450 shelf price.
Membership Card costs 1 Cent.
Members agree to pay a Labor and Stocking Fee on all Purchases.
Members get special prices on all purchases!
Today's Member Special, Glock 30 for 10 CENTS!!!!!!! subject to Labor and Stocking Fee.... (Labor is not taxable)

For an online dealer it is membership fee + Special Members Only Pricing and Members Special Shipping and Handling Fee.
Online Store:
Glock 30 $450 list price
Members get special Price
Membership is good for one purchase only
Membership card costs 1 cent
Members agree to Special Shipping and Handling Fee.
Member special price today on Glock 30s 10 cents + Member Priced Shipping and Handling... which happens to be $450.
California FFL gets my gun in for his customer and the Invoice Read Legally Correct that he must collect sales tax on 10 cents for that glock.......

DVSmith
05-04-2011, 9:05 AM
Except that if the state has a law requiring you to collect you have to take that into account. The goal is to avoid collisions with the government. Taking them on head on usually results in a messy situation. It is better to simply side-step rather than "out right violate". Think single-shot conversion. Eventually they close all the loopholes and become so odeus and oppressive that you have to violate. However, at that point, you have a Revolution on your hands anyways...

Remember, as a business, I can sell my pistols for 10 Cents but charge a "labor and stocking fee" of whatever I want as long as the customer is informed up front of the existence of such a fee. Fex in the advertisement: Glock 30 on sale now for $450.00! (ask about our special pricing when you pay our Labor and Restocking Fee!!! Members Only!). In fact businesses do this every day when running specials and adds. Sometimes freebie specials when bought with something else are rung up as 1 cent when bought with.... said other item, while normally the item sells for $10 if bought separately. You do not get charged the sales tax on the item worth $10 when you get it for 1 cent, you pay on the 1 cent.

So your Glock lists as $450 shelf price.
Membership Card costs 1 Cent.
Members agree to pay a Labor and Stocking Fee on all Purchases.
Members get special prices on all purchases!
Today's Member Special, Glock 30 for 10 CENTS!!!!!!! subject to Labor and Stocking Fee.... (Labor is not taxable)

I just don't get the penchant some gun owners and 2A advocates have for out and out breaking the law.

Frankly you guys worry me. Your credibility is completely demolished as far as I am concerned and I have to wonder what other rules and laws you break on a regular basis.

I wonder if being convicted of sales tax evasion is grounds for losing your right to own firearms? I can pretty much guarantee that at some point it will be if it isn't already if this is this is seen as the prevailing attitude amongst gun owners.

wu_dot_com
05-04-2011, 9:07 AM
Except that if the state has a law requiring you to collect you have to take that into account. The goal is to avoid collisions with the government. Taking them on head on usually results in a messy situation. It is better to simply side-step rather than "out right violate". Think single-shot conversion. Eventually they close all the loopholes and become so odeus and oppressive that you have to violate. However, at that point, you have a Revolution on your hands anyways...

Remember, as a business, I can sell my pistols for 10 Cents but charge a "labor and stocking fee" of whatever I want as long as the customer is informed up front of the existence of such a fee. Fex in the advertisement: Glock 30 on sale now for $450.00! (ask about our special pricing when you pay our Labor and Restocking Fee!!! Members Only!). In fact businesses do this every day when running specials and adds. Sometimes freebie specials when bought with something else are rung up as 1 cent when bought with.... said other item, while normally the item sells for $10 if bought separately. You do not get charged the sales tax on the item worth $10 when you get it for 1 cent, you pay on the 1 cent.

So your Glock lists as $450 shelf price.
Membership Card costs 1 Cent.
Members agree to pay a Labor and Stocking Fee on all Purchases.
Members get special prices on all purchases!
Today's Member Special, Glock 30 for 10 CENTS!!!!!!! subject to Labor and Stocking Fee.... (Labor is not taxable)

For an online dealer it is membership fee + Special Members Only Pricing and Members Special Shipping and Handling Fee.
Online Store:
Glock 30 $450 list price
Members get special Price
Membership is good for one purchase only
Membership card costs 1 cent
Members agree to Special Shipping and Handling Fee.
Member special price today on Glock 30s 10 cents + Member Priced Shipping and Handling... which happens to be $450.
California FFL gets my gun in for his customer and the Invoice Read Legally Correct that he must collect sales tax on 10 cents for that glock.......

question? would the government consider those "fees" as part of the purchasing price? if they dont, why not throw a big FU to the government and have the gun dealer invoice the gun to be as low as 1 cent, and a stocking feeds of $999.99.

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 9:13 AM
I just don't get the penchant some gun owners and 2A advocates have for out and out breaking the law.

Frankly you guys worry me. Your credibility is completely demolished as far as I am concerned and I have to wonder what other rules and laws you break on a regular basis.

I wonder if being convicted of sales tax evasion is grounds for losing your right to own firearms? I can pretty much guarantee that at some point it will be if it isn't already if this is this is seen as the prevailing attitude amongst gun owners.
Explain to me directly what LAW I am supposedly breaking in the above scenario? I may have missed them closing the loophole already of course...

So you think it is ok to NOT actively PROTEST a state that wants to take all your money and give it to some Illegal or other such people?

What if the Law stated all male babies had to be castrated or given hormones that Feminized them? Would you then break that Law? It is all good and well to claim.. I FOLLOW THE LAW but you do not. I assure you that 100% each and every day you have committed at least 1 infraction and likely a misdemeanor as well. Do you know every law in this state? Do you have them memorized? Be very careful when you start trying to go Ivory Tower on people because you will find your tower is built on sand and the internet is the flood that will wash away your foundation for haughtiness. If you really are as foolish and idiotically lawful as you claim to be you need to go down and turn yourself in and start paying back for all the infractions with late fees and time in jail for the crimes you have committed every day to this point. Also, don't try to claim absurdum for my example law. Currently in SF they are trying to ban Circumcision, if your religion required you to be circumcised would you violate that Law? Or is Law all there is in your life? Remember in every Dictatorship and Totalitarian Empire the Law of the Land stated what those people did was lawful. Stalin's mass murders of tens of millions was legitimate and legal. Freedom and Natural Rights trump Law of the Land and Law of the State every day of the week. You Sir, have lost all credibility as an American in my eyes. See here the words of our Founders.


IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.



@Wu.
As long as the invoice breaks out S&H from the cost *here is a hint, it should be added to a line AFTER tax on the invoice* it is perfectly legal.

Why have they not? They are not creative enough? They possibly have closed the loophole already? Take your pick. As shown in this thread even Tax Attorneys do not fully understand the tax law.

ZirconJohn
05-04-2011, 9:22 AM
Except that if the state has a law requiring you to collect you have to take that into account. The goal is to avoid collisions with the government. Taking them on head on usually results in a messy situation. It is better to simply side-step rather than "out right violate". Think single-shot conversion. Eventually they close all the loopholes and become so odeus and oppressive that you have to violate. However, at that point, you have a Revolution on your hands anyways...

meaty-btz,
I see what you posted; I read it, however this is what you wrote says to me...
"Except that if a rattlesnake has a rattles requiring you to be warned you have to take that into account. The goal is to avoid collisions with the fangs of a rattlesnake. Patting them (rattlesnakes) on head on usually results in a messy situation. It is better to simply side-step rattlesnakes than "out right violate". Think single-bite penetration. Eventually rattlesnakes close all the loopholes and become so nasty and deadly that you have to shat your pants. However, at that point, you have a snake-bite on your hands anyways."
:rolleyes:

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 9:24 AM
meaty-btz,
I see what you posted; I read it, however this is what you wrote says to me...

:rolleyes:

Hey, I actually like the way that reads. Except, let me alter it a bit more. It should be noted that word replacement, while fun, does not constitute an argument in full unless the context be completely the same. As Rattlesnakes, while dangerous, do not hold counsels to determine how long fangs can be or how many bites you are required to take in a year on their behalf. Therefor the amusing way it reads does not apply and seems absurd because the contextual nature of the two are fundamentally different.


Except that if a rattlesnake has a rattles requiring you to be warned you have to take that into account. The goal is to avoid collisions with the fangs of a rattlesnake. Patting them (rattlesnakes) on head on usually results in a messy situation. It is better to simply side-step rattlesnakes than "out right violate". Think bite-proof gloves as allowed by the current Rattle Snake Counsel. Eventually rattlesnakes close all the loopholes and become so nasty and deadly that you have to shat your pants. However, at that point, you have a snake-bite on your hands anyways.

wu_dot_com
05-04-2011, 9:30 AM
I just don't get the penchant some gun owners and 2A advocates have for out and out breaking the law.

Frankly you guys worry me. Your credibility is completely demolished as far as I am concerned and I have to wonder what other rules and laws you break on a regular basis.

I wonder if being convicted of sales tax evasion is grounds for losing your right to own firearms? I can pretty much guarantee that at some point it will be if it isn't already if this is this is seen as the prevailing attitude amongst gun owners.

i personally agree with his side-stepping method to the stupidest laws out there. im pretty sure that most of us agreed that the logic behind cal gun roster is a joke. that roster is conceive by sub humans with no sense of intelligence. yet, because its the law, we have no choice but to live by it.

this sales tax issue is really a desperate attempt to recover the CA budget crises. however, this budget crises is a systemic problem, superficial fixes hike like increasing tax revenue will not solve anything. excess and uncontrollable spending is the root cause of our problem. cave in to the states by allowing them more ways to collect taxes would send the wrong message to the legislators. it would allow them to continue the negative spending trend.

by the same line of thought, it seems like you can possibly be a supporter of the recently failed ab962 ammo law.

i am personally tired of all the gimmicks and tricks that our government do to further reduce our individual rights. did any of us ever seen this tax collection law in any ballet? did any of us ever seen the AB962 on the ballet? did any of us seen the Obama medical reform on the ballet? the answers is no. Our government will pass unfavorable laws w/o the consent of its major stake holders i.e. the citizens because they know the majority of us does not have the resources to fight back. i think finding loopholes in those ridiculous laws are guerrilla tactics we as citizens can do to keep our government in check.

damn this message made me sound like i believe in major conspiracy by the government :TFH:.

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 9:34 AM
damn this message made me sound like i believe in major conspiracy by the government :TFH:.

Every Animal has a nature. Government as an Animal has its own nature. Calling it what it is is not TFH but simply how things work. So rest assured its not a conspiracy, its just nature.

DVSmith
05-04-2011, 9:58 AM
Explain to me directly what LAW I am supposedly breaking in the above scenario? I may have missed them closing the loophole already of course...

So you think it is ok to NOT actively PROTEST a state that wants to take all your money and give it to some Illegal or other such people?

What if the Law stated all male babies had to be castrated or given hormones that Feminized them? Would you then break that Law? It is all good and well to claim.. I FOLLOW THE LAW but you do not. I assure you that 100% each and every day you have committed at least 1 infraction and likely a misdemeanor as well. Do you know every law in this state? Do you have them memorized? Be very careful when you start trying to go Ivory Tower on people because you will find your tower is built on sand and the internet is the flood that will wash away your foundation for haughtiness. If you really are as foolish and idiotically lawful as you claim to be you need to go down and turn yourself in and start paying back for all the infractions with late fees and time in jail for the crimes you have committed every day to this point. Also, don't try to claim absurdum for my example law. Currently in SF they are trying to ban Circumcision, if your religion required you to be circumcised would you violate that Law? Or is Law all there is in your life? Remember in every Dictatorship and Totalitarian Empire the Law of the Land stated what those people did was lawful. Stalin's mass murders of tens of millions was legitimate and legal. Freedom and Natural Rights trump Law of the Land and Law of the State every day of the week. You Sir, have lost all credibility as an American in my eyes. See here the words of our Founders.


Nice rant, but trying to justify violating state law with bizarre hypothetical examples is meaningless and is evidence that you have no good reason other than personal greed for not paying your taxes. If you don't like the law, challenge it in court, elect representatives that will change it or move out of state.

ZirconJohn
05-04-2011, 10:04 AM
Hey, I actually like the way that reads. Except, let me alter it a bit more. It should be noted that word replacement, while fun, does not constitute an argument in full unless the context be completely the same. As Rattlesnakes, while dangerous, do not hold counsels to determine how long fangs can be or how many bites you are required to take in a year on their behalf. Therefor the amusing way it reads does not apply and seems absurd because the contextual nature of the two are fundamentally different.

Exactly! The operative word here is absurd... either side of the same fence.

Therefore, let me know when you get your FFL and business licence, and you
have established your BOE account. We shall at that time continue this discussion.

Take care man... nice talking with you... (jd)

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 10:10 AM
Exactly! The operative word here is absurd... either side of the same fence.

Therefore, let me know when you get your FFL and business licence, and you
have established your BOE account. We shall at that time continue this discussion.

Take care man... nice talking with you... (jd)

Cool :D
However, while I will be getting a business license, an FFL, and incorporating. It won't be in this state and it won't be to "sell" consumer firearms. More specifically it involves the words "class" and "3".

genesis121
05-04-2011, 10:47 AM
Another question I had about online purchases and paying sales tax, which is the main topic I started here just incase you got side tracked by some rattlesnake story or dozed off while reading the declaration of the USA, was why am I charged CA sales tax when I purchased it online from a store in Idaho? Didn't the Idaho business take my money just like I physically purchased the firearm in their store? Also at what CA sales tax rate am I going to be charged? I live in a different city than my FFL and there are 2 different tax rates.

meaty-btz
05-04-2011, 10:54 AM
Nice rant, but trying to justify violating state law with bizarre hypothetical examples is meaningless and is evidence that you have no good reason other than personal greed for not paying your taxes. If you don't like the law, challenge it in court, elect representatives that will change it or move out of state.

What LAW am I violating... wait for it.. NONE! Just as single shot conversions are not violating the LAW.

As for challenging law in court. It works so well doesn't it. Oh wait, it only sort of works, well not really at all unless you are lucky. Didn't know the justifiability of a law was based on luck.

You are either a fool or a troll, either way I am done with you. You cannot defend your position. Cannot even tell me what law I am violating.

DVSmith
05-04-2011, 11:25 AM
Try the BOE. They really are a wealth of info. For example:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/lawguides/business/current/btlg/vol2/suta/495-0843.html

495.0000 SALE
Annotation 495.0843
(e) RETAIL SALE OR SALE FOR RESALE—DELIVERY BY OWNER, FORMER OWNER, FACTOR OR AGENT
495.0843 Deliveries by California Firearm Dealers for Out-of-State Retailers. California residents order firearms from out-of-state retailers and the retailers ship the firearms to an authorized California firearm dealer for delivery to the customer. The California firearm dealer charges a fee to register each firearm in California.

When the California firearm dealer completes the registration paperwork and delivers a firearm to a California purchaser for an out-of-state retailer not registered with the Board as a retailer engaged in business in this state, it is presumed that the firearm dealer is the retailer of the firearm under the second paragraph of section 6007. In such a case, the firearm dealer would owe sales tax on the total amount of the retail sales price of the gun to the customer, including the Department of Justice fee if passed on to the customer, and including any service charge made by the firearm dealer.

If the firearm dealer establishes to the satisfaction of the Board that the out-of-state retailer was engaged in business in this state under section 6203, its deliveries for that retailer will not be considered taxable retail sales by the firearm dealer, even if the out-of-state retailer has not registered with the Board as a retailer engaged in business in this state. In such cases, as well as in situations in which the retailer is in fact registered as a retailer engaged in business in this state, the out-of-state retailer has a duty to collect the use tax under section 6203. The retailer should collect use tax on the invoice price of the firearm, plus the service fee, even if paid directly to the firearm dealer by the customer. Also, the Department of Justice fee passed onto the customer should be included in the measure of tax. 12/7/95. (Am. 99–2).

(Note: On and after January 1, 1999, the Department of Justice fee is not includible in the measure of tax, but all other charges remain subject to tax.)

ZX-10R
05-04-2011, 2:19 PM
CA and their laws...I paid taxes this year again...A lot of it to support the poor, lazy, illegal, and stupid. I respect the shops that do not collect because obviously they do not think it is right either...Reap what you sow CA.

HPGunner
05-04-2011, 4:00 PM
Another question I had about online purchases and paying sales tax, which is the main topic I started here just incase you got side tracked by some rattlesnake story or dozed off while reading the declaration of the USA, was why am I charged CA sales tax when I purchased it online from a store in Idaho? Didn't the Idaho business take my money just like I physically purchased the firearm in their store? Also at what CA sales tax rate am I going to be charged? I live in a different city than my FFL and there are 2 different tax rates.

I think you would likely be charged the state sales tax rate and county rate that of where your FFL is located, but I'm not 100% sure. It's upto the FFL to decide whether or not it will collect the sales tax from you, not the store in Idaho. The store in Idaho could only charge you sales tax if it has a business located in the state of California and if that's the case the FFL wouldn't collect sales tax from you again.

yzernie
05-05-2011, 1:14 AM
My FFL told me that his tax attorney told him that he did not have to collect sales tax on guns and he has been in business for 10+ years.
All I can say is this, the BoE has told FFLs they need to collect the tax and there are rules mandating we do it. If an chooses not to collect the tax, that is his decision and it will eventueally haunt him. Then, he will be required to pony up all of the taxes owed out of his pocket.

Again, please remember the FFLs are doing what we are told to do by the BoE tax code the BoE. If an FFL chooses not to follow the rules that is on them and when the BoE and CaDoJ come knocking. I'd rather lose a sale or two than have those folks banging on my door. Just my couple of cents!

JDW67
05-05-2011, 8:55 AM
All I can say is this, the BoE has told FFLs they need to collect the tax and there are rules mandating we do it. If an chooses not to collect the tax, that is his decision and it will eventueally haunt him. Then, he will be required to pony up all of the taxes owed out of his pocket.

Again, please remember the FFLs are doing what we are told to do by the BoE tax code the BoE. If an FFL chooses not to follow the rules that is on them and when the BoE and CaDoJ come knocking. I'd rather lose a sale or two than have those folks banging on my door. Just my couple of cents!

So, you think the BOE is going to go to the different states and demand taxes? :confused:

DVSmith
05-05-2011, 9:04 AM
So, you think the BOE is going to go to the different states and demand taxes? :confused:

No. What the BOE does is they come into your local FFL's place of business. They audit their sales records. When they see a transfer, they ask for the details. When they determine that the transaction was taxable they ask for evidence the taxes were collected and paid. If the FFL does not have sufficient evidence, they assess the taxes to the FFL. Stop and think about that point for a minute. They assess the taxes to the FFL! Not the buyer, not the seller, the FFL. The guy who charged you a few bucks is now responsible for the taxes on the retail value of the gun you bought and took home. So that $1000.00 gun you bought costs the FFL between $80 & $90. If he has a bunch of them, he is screwed. Oh, and don't forget the penalties and interest he will be assessed as well.

Onlyincali
05-05-2011, 12:58 PM
Few questions.

1. What happens if the FFL says the customer stated they were claiming the taxes on their returns? In other words, how would they know they arent double taxing? What if the customer REALLY does pay the tax at the end of the year, and then they charge the FFL again?

2. How do they know how much the gun sold for? The ffl usually doesnt keep track of what the buyer paid for the gun.

By no means am I suggesting anyone try to get out of paying taxes. Just curious about the above.

halifax
05-05-2011, 1:17 PM
Few questions.

1. What happens if the FFL says the customer stated they were claiming the taxes on their returns? In other words, how would they know they arent double taxing? What if the customer REALLY does pay the tax at the end of the year, and then they charge the FFL again?

The BOE doesn't care if the end user pays the use tax on it. They only care that the dealer (who is being held resposible) collects and remits the tax.


2. How do they know how much the gun sold for? The ffl usually doesnt keep track of what the buyer paid for the gun.

Again, the dealer is the responsible party here and had better be prepared to show the BOE how the sales tax was determined. Too many $1 firearm sales would certainly be a big red flag.

DVSmith
05-05-2011, 1:31 PM
Few questions.

1. What happens if the FFL says the customer stated they were claiming the taxes on their returns? In other words, how would they know they arent double taxing? What if the customer REALLY does pay the tax at the end of the year, and then they charge the FFL again?

2. How do they know how much the gun sold for? The ffl usually doesn't keep track of what the buyer paid for the gun.

By no means am I suggesting anyone try to get out of paying taxes. Just curious about the above.

1. The BOE does not give the FFL that option. The FFL is responsible for collecting the tax. In California, the sales tax is a tax on the transaction that must be paid by the retailer or, in this case, the FFL. They are not required to charge you the tax, they are just required to pay it.

2. If I were your FFL and you had a firearm shipped to me I would want a copy of the invoice and/or receipt for payment with a description of the firearm and a S/N. The BOE may have other guidelines, but that would be my policy.

xrMike
05-05-2011, 1:33 PM
I am interested in purchasing a handgun online and having it transfered to my local FFL. He told me that I would still have to pay CA sales tax on it. So I would pay him sale tax on something that he didn't sell me that I bought online out of state? Anybody else hear of this?You should call around and ask ALL of your local FFLs and see what their policies are...

Mine does NOT charge me the tax (not yet anyway). $50 transfer fee and that's it.

And if I buy from Bud's I get free shipping too.

HPGunner
05-05-2011, 1:59 PM
Here's a general publication from the BoE on Purchase from Out of State Vendors

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub112.pdf

It seems its the consumer or reseller that is responsible to report the sales/use tax. It maybe different for firearms and FFL's, but my FFLs tell me that reporting and paying the sales/use tax is between me and the state of California seems to be inline with the publication.

wu_dot_com
05-05-2011, 2:07 PM
Again, the dealer is the responsible party here and had better be prepared to show the BOE how the sales tax was determined. Too many $1 firearm sales would certainly be a big red flag.

when happens when the CA FFL have an invoice (written evidence) from out of state gun dealer indicating the gun was indeed sold for $1 (with a separate line item of $999 for shipping and handling / stocking)?

thus CA FFL have done their part legally because they've shown proof that taxes were collected on that $1 firearm. meanwhile CA BOE does not have jurisdiction to impose their sales price requirements on out of state seller .

EDIT:

NVM, that scheme wont work

The retailer should collect use tax on the invoice price of the firearm, plus the service fee, even if paid directly to the firearm dealer by the customer. Also, the Department of Justice fee passed onto the customer should be included in the measure of tax

so, from the way it reads, tax will be calculated based on a percentage of the price + fees (shipping and handling, restocking) + DOJ DROS?

i didnt know DROS is taxable.

halifax
05-05-2011, 2:09 PM
Here's a general publication from the BoE on Purchase from Out of State Vendors

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub112.pdf

It seems its the consumer or reseller that is responsible to report the sales/use tax. It maybe different for firearms and FFL's, but my FFLs tell me that reporting and paying the sales/use tax is between me and the state of California seems to be inline with the publication.



And, for the third time in this thread, here is the pertainent BOE link for FFLs:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/lawguides/business/current/btlg/vol2/suta/495-0843.html

halifax
05-05-2011, 2:17 PM
Bottom line here is:

If you can find an FFL who will not collect sales tax on out of state transfers, use him.

wu_dot_com
05-05-2011, 2:34 PM
humm,

now i am totally confuse...

http://sam.dgs.ca.gov/TOC/8700/8722.htm

Nontaxable sales will be supported by exemption certificates, resale certificates, shipping documents, or other evidence. Nontaxable sales include, but are not limited to, sales (1) to the United State Government and its instrumentalities, (2) for resale by the purchaser, (3) made in interstate commerce, and (4) of food products for human consumption or

so which takes precedence

wu_dot_com
05-05-2011, 2:55 PM
found a loop hole for sales tax exemption.

according to Article 1. General Exemptions Section 6379.5; Printed sales messages for goods and services printed to the special order of the purchaser are tax except. thus have the dealer print out a special page just for you and tag that sales page with the remainder amount.

http://www.boe.ca.gov/lawguides/business/current/btlg/vol1/sutl/6379-5.html

thus on the invoice it reads: gun = $1, special gun ad order = $999. FFL can only tax the $1 gun part because the ad is non-taxable.

wu_dot_com
05-05-2011, 3:02 PM
here is another loophole,

according to CHAPTER 4, Article 1, Section 6364; Containers. There are exempted from the taxes imposed by this part.

Items such as twine, gummed tape, and wrapping materials are considered to be included in the term “container.’’

http://www.boe.ca.gov/lawguides/business/current/btlg/vol1/sutl/6364.html

thus tagging the container cost would qualify it to be non-taxable.

wu_dot_com
05-05-2011, 3:07 PM
here is another fee,

1 day membership fee is also tax exempt.

CONSUMER COOPERATIVES—Tax does not apply to membership fees, and labor performed in lieu of such fees, for organizations engaged in business for the mutual benefit of its shareholders, and which are composed of ultimate producers or consumers. Certain other restrictions apply.
REVENUE: N/A �SECTIONS: 6011.1 and 6012.1

Cyc Wid It
05-05-2011, 3:16 PM
You do realize that most places aren't going to willing to make special invoices etc. right? Should be interesting too if you ever need to dispute any credit card charges.

wu_dot_com
05-05-2011, 3:31 PM
You do realize that most places aren't going to willing to make special invoices etc. right? Should be interesting too if you ever need to dispute any credit card charges.

well, this is only for huge cost items like firearm sale. in which case, most dealers will require you to call them and place an order. so when i call them, i would ask them to see if they are willing to create the special invoice. as far as CC charge, all the sum of the charges should be the same as if you were purchasing it normally. since we can only DROSE 1 new HG each month, i think the CC charge wont be too big of an issue.

the only downside would be to use those invoice to proof the value of the gun in insurance clams.

personally, i am willing to take the risk.

halifax
05-05-2011, 3:38 PM
humm,

now i am totally confuse...

http://sam.dgs.ca.gov/TOC/8700/8722.htm



so which takes precedence

(3) made in interstate commerce refers to sales delivered from CA to an out-of-state recipient.

Don't believe that call the BOE yourself. I just did. 1-800-400-7115

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 9:40 AM
WU - If you can find an FFL that is willing to go along with those corrupt schemes you are talking to an FFL that isn't planning to stay in business very long.

Bottom line is pay the sales tax. If you can't afford the tax you can't afford the gun. Arguments that you should withhold taxes from the government as a protest are ridiculous.

By the way, just to show you how serious the BOE is, I am involved with a 501c3 that is being run through the ringer over a $40.00 mistake on a sales tax return for selling food items at a local carnival. Our accountant has spent about 10 hours on this project so far. If she was billing us at her standard hourly rate of $210.00 we would be upside down on the fundraiser. They wouldn't even let us just write them a check, we had to file an amended return. You think they are going to roll over on one of these aforementioned cockamamie schemes? Think again.

thomasanelson
05-06-2011, 10:28 AM
I am interested in purchasing a handgun online and having it transfered to my local FFL. He told me that I would still have to pay CA sales tax on it. So I would pay him sale tax on something that he didn't sell me that I bought online out of state? Anybody else hear of this?

Very common. In addition, there is a usage tax in CA for any item you buy out of state (interenet or in person) that will be used in CA. Essentially you are require to pay sales tax regardless of where or how you buy any items to be used in CA. Big Brother (CA edition) is actually considering a "policing entity" to crack down on big internet buyers who fail to pay their taxes to the Nanny State.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 12:33 PM
WU - If you can find an FFL that is willing to go along with those corrupt schemes you are talking to an FFL that isn't planning to stay in business very long.

Bottom line is pay the sales tax. If you can't afford the tax you can't afford the gun. Arguments that you should withhold taxes from the government as a protest are ridiculous.

By the way, just to show you how serious the BOE is, I am involved with a 501c3 that is being run through the ringer over a $40.00 mistake on a sales tax return for selling food items at a local carnival. Our accountant has spent about 10 hours on this project so far. If she was billing us at her standard hourly rate of $210.00 we would be upside down on the fundraiser. They wouldn't even let us just write them a check, we had to file an amended return. You think they are going to roll over on one of these aforementioned cockamamie schemes? Think again.

my thinking is, the scheme does not require FFL compliance. by definition, FFL is require to report the cost of goods and service fee. if proof of cost and service is provided by the gun dealer, FFL is not breaking any laws by reporting the taxable amount from what is on that invoice. which also means, the FFL cannot charge beyond the invoice value. thus no laws were broken.

now from my understanding, its up to the seller to sell their product at the price that they want, the BOE have no rights telling them how much a gun dealer can sell their guns because it would of otherwise consider price fixing. in addition, the out of state gun dealer can will be out of the jurisdiction of CA BOE, thus, there is nothing to worry about.

either way, the only thing that is corrupted is our government and our taxation without representation. by percentage, i paid more in tax then i am represented from my tax contribution. meanwhile, i have no other way of protest other than doing what i can to fight against this corrupt system. this is not an issue of affordability, its an issue of principle.

BTW your 501C3 is an income related federal issue, not a state level sales tax issue. i am specifically talking about a interstate commerce which is out of the jurisdiction of the CA BOE. judging from lack of information, i am assuming your issue stems from lack of proper supporting documentation paperwork. however, in the case i am talking about, if all the paperwork are in place, there is really nothing that the BOE can object to unless they amend their requirements. even when they do amend their requirements, by law, they cannot back charge for what have taken place before the laws were amended.

if you want to convince us, you really need to proof your point by illustrating the specific laws that were broken rather than posting your bigoted remarks as substantiation.

Cyc Wid It
05-06-2011, 1:03 PM
Can we all just agree that it is in the best interests of FFL's to correctly report sales and to collect tax when required and be done with it?

shooterdude
05-06-2011, 1:37 PM
If a business person is supposed to collect tax and fails to do so then it is his problem however, if YOU are scheming to find a way to not pay your taxes then you are not a citizen.

1911RONIN
05-06-2011, 1:51 PM
So, what I don't get is why are we not sabotaging the tax by having buds/outofdatetransferer simply list the transaction as $10 bucks on the invoice. Sure, I will pay a sales tax on $10.

Considering this is what people have been doing to the DMV for decades. Is it against the law? Sure, good luck trying to prove it. Our goal as citizens should be to starve the state of its taxes. Why? Its like a retroactive vote of the people, we can't get them to behave through the ballot box, or the courts, and since we don't want a revolution yet we can do a bloodless one and start finding every way we can remove their tax base from them. Starve the bastards out.

I am still waiting for the day they take a page from the Middle Ages and start sending armed tax collectors door to door to "forcibly" take "taxes" from people.

By the way, fighting taxes or the concept of 'starving the government' is a form of social objection to the action of the government. A protest. There is a reason why we have Conscientious Objector status in this country. Read up on Tax Resistance. I am saying this because of the "you should pay your taxes" people here on this site. Tax Resistance is a recognized form of social protest, it should be exercised. Somehow, the sheep in this country have had that part trained out of them. Its not just about war, the so called Tea Partiers say they protest taxes and make a big stink but then they just go about paying them. If they don't agree with taxes they should work to undermine them in every way they can get away with. I see Tax Resistance as one step to always take before having to resort to the Ammo Box.

here here!

halifax
05-06-2011, 2:41 PM
Wu, how does this fit into your scheme?

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub100.pdf

Seems CA considers some services & handling to be taxable. You might want to get the sellers to devise a very well worded invoice.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 2:45 PM
If a business person is supposed to collect tax and fails to do so then it is his problem however, if YOU are scheming to find a way to not pay your taxes then you are not a citizen.

this view is too polarize, the statement you've made have an all or nothing tone to it. perhaps its not your intention, but it sure read that way.

either way, as a citizen, i am for taxation with proper representation. however, this interstate commerce tax have always been a gray area that was never fully define. as a result, sales tax were not traditionally charge since the time of sears catalog. it is only due to recent poor budgeting of the local government with their uncontrollable spending that cause this need to look for a new source of tax revenue.

i as a citizen who care for the future spending trend of CA and US will not enable this negative spending behavior by allowing them to impose this additional taxation without the public consent. rather than doing those useless marches around the capital, i am using their rules against them. there is nothing sinister going on here. so far, from my understanding, no tax laws were broken unless proven otherwise.

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 2:51 PM
my thinking is, the scheme does not require FFL compliance. by definition, FFL is require to report the cost of goods and service fee. if proof of cost and service is provided by the gun dealer, FFL is not breaking any laws by reporting the taxable amount from what is on that invoice. which also means, the FFL cannot charge beyond the invoice value. thus no laws were broken.

now from my understanding, its up to the seller to sell their product at the price that they want, the BOE have no rights telling them how much a gun dealer can sell their guns because it would of otherwise consider price fixing. in addition, the out of state gun dealer can will be out of the jurisdiction of CA BOE, thus, there is nothing to worry about.

either way, the only thing that is corrupted is our government and our taxation without representation. by percentage, i paid more in tax then i am represented from my tax contribution. meanwhile, i have no other way of protest other than doing what i can to fight against this corrupt system. this is not an issue of affordability, its an issue of principle.

BTW your 501C3 is an income related federal issue, not a state level sales tax issue. i am specifically talking about a interstate commerce which is out of the jurisdiction of the CA BOE. judging from lack of information, i am assuming your issue stems from lack of proper supporting documentation paperwork. however, in the case i am talking about, if all the paperwork are in place, there is really nothing that the BOE can object to unless they amend their requirements. even when they do amend their requirements, by law, they cannot back charge for what have taken place before the laws were amended.

if you want to convince us, you really need to proof your point by illustrating the specific laws that were broken rather than posting your bigoted remarks as substantiation.

You truly are not seriously expecting the BOE to see this as anything short of a fraudulent attempt to evade sales tax are you?

Try this from the BOE website:

Under the California Revenue and Taxation Code, any person who evades the reporting, assessment or payment of sales taxes that would otherwise be due may be guilty of sales tax evasion. Violators are subject to fines and/or jail time.

As for the non-profit, I simply use 501c3 as descriptive. Yes the issue relates to one of our volunteers assembling incorrect data before filing. The CPA is only involved to help communicate with the state because mere mortals seem to annoy them.

The whole story was intended to be illustrative of the resolve the BOE has in collecting sales and use tax.

Do let us know if you find someone who went through all of the trouble and expense to become an FFL that is willing to go along with your scheme.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 2:53 PM
Wu, how does this fit into your scheme?

http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub100.pdf

Seems CA considers some services & handling to be taxable. You might want to get the sellers to devise a very well worded invoice.

yes it does,

there are other none taxable line items that i've posted to allow the invoice to appear the full amount for the purpose of charging your credit card.

i think the container cost is one of the best example. though if anyone with half a brain can see through the flaw logic behind it when they do an audit, but the paper trail is clear and no tax laws were violated.

Darklyte27
05-06-2011, 2:55 PM
FFL's dont have to collect the tax if you are going to pay it yourself.

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 2:57 PM
FFL's dont have to collect the tax if you are going to pay it yourself.

Really?

And, for the third time in this thread, here is the pertainent BOE link for FFLs:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/lawguides/business/current/btlg/vol2/suta/495-0843.html

I guess that makes it the 4th time...

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 3:14 PM
You truly are not seriously expecting the BOE to see this as anything short of a fraudulent attempt to evade sales tax are you?

Try this from the BOE website:

Under the California Revenue and Taxation Code, any person who evades the reporting, assessment or payment of sales taxes that would otherwise be due may be guilty of sales tax evasion. Violators are subject to fines and/or jail time.



BOE can and may see it as a fraudulent attempt, but they have no way of proven it. with the container method, sure they may question my sanity of spending $999 on the tapes and popcorns (container) and $1 on the gun, but they have no way of proven that i am violating any written laws. also BOE cannot price fix the product, thus the out of state gun dealer can sell it for how ever much they want.

now lets explore the possibility of what the BOE really stick me with. the key word i read here are evading the reporting, assessment or payment.

consider the example invoice for out of state purchase will read:

1 gun SN:XXX $1.00
2 shipping and handling: $1.00
3. container fee (non-taxable): $998.00

total 1000.00
taxable amount: $2.00 plus DROS

our CA FFL can only charge Tax for a total of $27; which i will pay gladly.
it should be obvious that i am not evading either the reporting or payment.
i am also not evading (by definition = avoiding) the assessment because all the taxable charges are clearly listed. evading the assessment will be a gray area argument at best, which the BOE really dont have any substantial proof base on technicality.

halifax
05-06-2011, 3:19 PM
my thinking is, the scheme does not require FFL compliance. by definition, FFL is require to report the cost of goods and service fee. if proof of cost and service is provided by the gun dealer, FFL is not breaking any laws by reporting the taxable amount from what is on that invoice. which also means, the FFL cannot charge beyond the invoice value. thus no laws were broken.

...

Lack of "compliance" from the FFL may come in the form of "I have the right to refuse service to anyone, take your games elsewhere"

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 3:30 PM
BOE can and may see it as a fraudulent attempt, but they have no way of proven it. with the container method, sure they may question my sanity of spending $999 on the tapes and popcorns (container) and $1 on the gun, but they have no way of proven that i am violating any written laws. also BOE cannot price fix the product, thus the out of state gun dealer can sell it for how ever much they want.

now lets explore the possibility of what the BOE really stick me with. the key word i read here are evading the reporting, assessment or payment.

consider the example invoice for out of state purchase will read:

1 gun SN:XXX $1.00
2 shipping and handling: $1.00
3. container fee (non-taxable): $998.00

total 1000.00
taxable amount: $2.00 plus DROS

our CA FFL can only charge Tax for a total of $27; which i will pay gladly.
it should be obvious that i am not evading either the reporting or payment.
i am also not evading (by definition = avoiding) the assessment because all the taxable charges are clearly listed. evading the assessment will be a gray area argument at best, which the BOE really dont have any substantial proof base on technicality.

The BOE is simply going to get industry standard pricing and apply it to the obviously modified pricing you provided. They will do that by having one of their lawyers contact the out of state retailer and obtain an affidavit that you requested this special handling and their normal price for said gun is X. The reason the out of state retailer is gong to play along with the BOE is because they want to stay out of a legal tussle that could very well include criminal penalties for conspiring with you to defraud the State of California.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 3:32 PM
Lack of "compliance" from the FFL may come in the form of "I have the right to refuse service to anyone, take your games elsewhere"

its the right of every FFL to refuse to serve a customer. but here in SOCal, we have plenty FFLs. :)

so im sure there will be many FFL that can understand the laws and feel conformable with it.

its not a game, its not evil, its just operating within the boundary of laws yet thinking outside the box. i do not expect stubborn and do things by the book type to understand.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 3:45 PM
The BOE is simply going to get industry standard pricing and apply it to the obviously modified pricing you provided. They will do that by having one of their lawyers contact the out of state retailer and obtain an affidavit that you requested this special handling and their normal price for said gun is X. The reason the out of state retailer is gong to play along with the BOE is because they want to stay out of a legal tussle that could very well include criminal penalties for conspiring with you to defraud the State of California.

you have made an assumption that the out of state dealer will face criminal penalties even though its out of CA BOE's jurisdiction. if anything, CA BOE can try to sue them in civil court, but on what ground? you have also assume that the out of state dealer will provide the affidavit, but why should they. unfortunately, both are just assumption, and your assumptions are slippery slope.

by law, BOE can only use industry standard if the invoice price is unavailable. (yes, i've have actually did my homework on reading how the sales tax is being calculated based on BOE publication, this is how i found the loopholes)

if what you said were true, than you would have to always paid the full tax on special promotion items when they were being discounted for 50 to 90% off. however, in reality, you only pay tax based off of the actual invoice/ advertize price. the fact of the matter is, sales tax is not calculated based on the worth or cost of the product, but rather the sales/ invoice price of the goods.


BTW, you keep on referring to words like defrauding and conspiring... but you have not shown any legal litterateurs or regulations supporting that the plan is in clear violation of the sales tax rule. assumptions and hunches does not work in the legal system.

RenegadeRebel
05-06-2011, 4:09 PM
So who are the FFL's in San Diego area that charge no sales tax? Last time I bought a gun I got into a verbal argument with Gusslers about this very issue...That guy is extremely rude...

Cyc Wid It
05-06-2011, 4:32 PM
Very few FFL's are going to risk their business over <$100 in most cases. If you find one that's willing to, more power to you and them but it's not the norm and people should not expect it to be.

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 4:35 PM
you have made an assumption that the out of state dealer will face criminal penalties even though its out of CA BOE's jurisdiction. if anything, CA BOE can try to sue them in civil court, but on what ground? you have also assume that the out of state dealer will provide the affidavit, but why should they. unfortunately, both are just assumption, and your assumptions are slippery slope.

by law, BOE can only use industry standard if the invoice price is unavailable. (yes, i've have actually did my homework on reading how the sales tax is being calculated based on BOE publication, this is how i found the loopholes)

if what you said were true, than you would have to always paid the full tax on special promotion items when they were being discounted for 50 to 90% off. however, in reality, you only pay tax based off of the actual invoice/ advertize price. the fact of the matter is, sales tax is not calculated based on the worth or cost of the product, but rather the sales/ invoice price of the goods.


BTW, you keep on referring to words like defrauding and conspiring... but you have not shown any legal litterateurs or regulations supporting that the plan is in clear violation of the sales tax rule. assumptions and hunches does not work in the legal system.

It is as simple as wire and mail fraud... federal offenses. Tell you what, just do it and I'll run your transaction past the BOE and let's see how it turns out. That would settle the whole thing, now wouldn't it? I seem to recall that the BOE has a fraud reporting incentive... I'll split anything I make off of it with you. I promise!

halifax
05-06-2011, 6:28 PM
its not a game, its not evil, its just operating within the boundary of laws yet thinking outside the box. i do not expect stubborn and do things by the book type to understand.

:rofl2:

Your thinking is definitely "outside [of] the box" Wu

Noobie
05-06-2011, 6:58 PM
Is everybody getting hot because you don't like how Wu is willing to contest taxation and collection, or because you believe he has no right to try to contest it? I'm sure ffls hate having this responsibility.

yzernie
05-06-2011, 7:54 PM
Do I like the BoE's rule for the sales tax?...nope. Am I willing to risk the monetary penalties and the loss of my licenses/permits by not being truthful about the purchase price of a gun?...nope. Whether I like it or not, I run my business in accordance with the rules that are set in place. As I said in a previous post, I'd rather lose an occassional sale or two by playing within the rules rather than having the CaDoJ and the BoE kicking in my door with search and arrest warrants.

LBDamned
05-06-2011, 8:38 PM
I keep seeing this subject come up - which sucks, because I have a feeling the more its talked about the more attention it will get and the more FFL will start charging tax.

As of now, I havent paid tax on the last three out of state transfers... I hope it stays that way.

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 8:42 PM
Do I like the BoE's rule for the sales tax?...nope. Am I willing to risk the monetary penalties and the loss of my licenses/permits by not being truthful about the purchase price of a gun?...nope. Whether I like it or not, I run my business in accordance with the rules that are set in place. As I said in a previous post, I'd rather lose an occassional sale or two by playing within the rules rather than having the CaDoJ and the BoE kicking in my door with search and arrest warrants.

This ^ is exactly what Wu and the others that are trying to subvert the CA tax regs do not understand. They can be as subversive as they like, but it requires the complicity of others.

On top of that it is morally repugnant. Pay your freeking taxes like a man and vote for politicians that support your view of the world. If you are in the minority, those are the spoils of politics. Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

DVSmith
05-06-2011, 8:45 PM
I keep seeing this subject come up - which sucks, because I have a feeling the more its talked about the more attention it will get and the more FFL will start charging tax.

As of now, I havent paid tax on the last three out of state transfers... I hope it stays that way.

Keep in mind that not ALL out of state purchases are subject to tax. Research and educate your FFL. Some FFL's will take the approach that EVERYTHING is taxable because they don't want the liability. Find one who understands the rules and you will be better off.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 9:14 PM
It is as simple as wire and mail fraud... federal offenses. Tell you what, just do it and I'll run your transaction past the BOE and let's see how it turns out. That would settle the whole thing, now wouldn't it? I seem to recall that the BOE has a fraud reporting incentive... I'll split anything I make off of it with you. I promise!

actually its not as simple as wire and mail fraud...

under U.S.C.title 18 part 1 chapter 63 does not cover the propose method as fraud. so nice try.

also, do not attempt to be sarcastic just because you cannot give any legal reference as to why the container / membership method is illegal.

so nice try, but do play again.

Noobie
05-06-2011, 9:38 PM
Keep in mind that not ALL out of state purchases are subject to tax. Research and educate your FFL. Some FFL's will take the approach that EVERYTHING is taxable because they don't want the liability. Find one who understands the rules and you will be better off.

That is the saddest part about this. BoE is such a bully, and depending on the county the GS is in, most GS will err on the side of caution, and pass that on to the consumer.
I don't think anyone here is saying let's be criminals, maybe just saying let's push back. I got charged tax when I shouldn't have. Why, because I wasn't about to put the seller through crap because of where I live, and possibly lose the item. Is it worthwhile to claim I paid extra taxes next April and try to get the credit? I'll let you tell me if you would try. This is less about taxes, and more about "putting on the big girl panties" and standing up for ourselves. If I can be trusted to report all other out of state purchases for all other merchandise at year end, then I should be able to do the same for firearms. And let's be real honest here, BoE enforcing a GS to collect taxes for transfers has very little to do with the income part, and more to do with the deterrent aspect of enterring a firearms sales business due to one more agency having the ability to exert regulatory pressure.
It takes innovative minds, and thinking outside the box sometimes to get the majority to recognize the obvious ignorance of some of our laws, regulations, etc. Look at Gene and the hi-cap issue, he's trying a work around within the law to try make the hi-cap law obsolete, is Wu proposing anything different?
Wu I commend you for trying

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 9:38 PM
This ^ is exactly what Wu and the others that are trying to subvert the CA tax regs do not understand. They can be as subversive as they like, but it requires the complicity of others.

On top of that it is morally repugnant. Pay your freeking taxes like a man and vote for politicians that support your view of the world. If you are in the minority, those are the spoils of politics. Put your big girl panties on and deal with it!

i dont think this subject have anything to do with any morally related issue. its the same concept as grouping the expenses under the right deductible section when you file your taxes. smart people who understand the definition of the law can get more deductibles because they group it correctly, meanwhile, those who file the EZ form or those who were not familiar with the tax law will get less deductibles.

do you think those people who get more tax return because they file it correctly is fraudulent or morally repugnant? if so, than you my friend are just over zealous and lack the basic understanding of how things really work.

i dont know how familiarize are you with some of the common laws in the US and how contradicting they really are. i spent a good amount of my free time finding those contradiction as a form of pass time. throughout my research, i was able to use my knowledge and dispute some of the ridiculous excuse for taxation such as tinted window ticket.

wu_dot_com
05-06-2011, 9:46 PM
That is the saddest part about this. BoE is such a bully, and depending on the county the GS is in, most GS will err on the side of caution, and pass that on to the consumer.
I don't think anyone here is saying let's be criminals, maybe just saying let's push back. I got charged tax when I shouldn't have. Why, because I wasn't about to put the seller through crap because of where I live, and possibly lose the item. Is it worthwhile to claim I paid extra taxes next April and try to get the credit? I'll let you tell me if you would try. This is less about taxes, and more about "putting on the big girl panties" and standing up for ourselves. If I can be trusted to report all other out of state purchases for all other merchandise at year end, then I should be able to do the same for firearms. And let's be real honest here, BoE enforcing a GS to collect taxes for transfers has very little to do with the income part, and more to do with the deterrent aspect of enterring a firearms sales business due to one more agency having the ability to exert regulatory pressure.
It takes innovative minds, and thinking outside the box sometimes to get the majority to recognize the obvious ignorance of some of our laws, regulations, etc. Look at Gene and the hi-cap issue, he's trying a work around within the law to try make the hi-cap law obsolete, is Wu proposing anything different?
Wu I commend you for trying

thank you sir, i appreciate your support.

i want to expose the loophole within our current law system and develop a legal method for us to fight back against those ignorant and idiotic laws.


the more we rolled over, the more our government will continue to take our rights away.

good thing we are being protected by free speech.

LBDamned
05-07-2011, 11:10 AM
people must realize internet tax is not just for firearms purchases... so we can debate all day long about FFL changing tax - but I'm against it... for those that want to whine about "it's not right" and foolish imply "man-up and pay"... I could go on a seven page dissertation about why paying MORE taxes in this state is ludicrous.

The bottom line is - if internet sales (for all goods) result in being taxed, purchases will decline and many retailers will suffer - it's a stupid idea - period. and for liberal yahoos that want to whine about it, take it up wit your idiotic legislators that think economic recover requires additional taxes to the highest paying society in the country.

My idea of a good FFL and dealer are ones that provide quality customer service and dont financially rape their clients. If you arent one of them, no problem - but you dont get my business and I dont need to hear from you (so save it).

LBDamned
05-07-2011, 11:13 AM
Keep in mind that not ALL out of state purchases are subject to tax. Research and educate your FFL. Some FFL's will take the approach that EVERYTHING is taxable because they don't want the liability. Find one who understands the rules and you will be better off.

I don't understand your reply to my post. I dont pay taxes to my FFL (just as my post states). Why would I need to research and educate them?

jtmkinsd
05-07-2011, 12:12 PM
So who are the FFL's in San Diego area that charge no sales tax? Last time I bought a gun I got into a verbal argument with Gusslers about this very issue...That guy is extremely rude...

I'll give you a hint...Gussler's used to be one who didn't. So the next time you decide to "get into a verbal argument" about the tax you're trying to avoid paying...consider who you're asking to join you in your criminal behavior. I know Don...and he's one of the best in the business...be glad he's still in business.

Librarian
05-07-2011, 2:46 PM
Keep the discussion on topic, please.