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1911RONIN
04-27-2011, 12:39 PM
Just FYI for those buying through Buds: local GSs are hiking (in some cases doubling) their fees if you buy a gun through Buds. At this point, I think Turner's is no longer taking transfers from Buds, and Ades in Anaheim is hiking their fees. Both items were gleaned while overhearing (clearly) conversations that took place with an employee at one of these locations...

Soon we'll all be paying more insane local prices...call your local GS before you transfer, even it you have done so fairly recently...

As if California could get any worse...:rolleyes:

IPSICK
04-27-2011, 12:56 PM
So it's better the local gun shop go out of business because you insist on buying from Bud's because they can undercut your local gun shop.

Without the local gun shops staying in business, how else will you do a transfer?

Lead Waster
04-27-2011, 1:00 PM
There are lots of non-gunshop FFLs around. Many many "kitchen top" FFLs. They will just get more business.

Gunshops still have many things (aside from guns) that you wouldn't bother getting off the net. Some reloading stuff (primers, powders) are not worth it with the hazmat fees, etc. Also many guns sold on conscription.

Anyway, check the FFL transfer fees before blindly using a gunshop for a Bud's purchase.

I'll keep using Buds.

1911RONIN
04-27-2011, 1:15 PM
So it's better the local gun shop go out of business because you insist on buying from Bud's because they can undercut your local gun shop.

Without the local gun shops staying in business, how else will you do a transfer?

I don't think this is the point...this a case where one particular business is being targeted because of its ability to offer more competitive rates. As such, if the local GS cannot compete, then so much the worse for it. This is American capitalism and free markets at work...

I realize this is tantamount racking the "sacred cow" (the folkloric glories of the local GS), but as others have stated there are other ways to do transfers...

And perhaps local GSs need to rethink their business models, but I cannot speak affirmatively in that which I am ignorant of, in this case...

G60
04-27-2011, 1:20 PM
Bud's isn't that great anyhow. I paid $20 more going through my local FFL than if i were to have gone through buds, and the FFL that would have done my transfer from bud's wasn't going to charge me a transfer fee.

Ripon83
04-27-2011, 1:24 PM
If my local gun shop is competitive I'd rather buy from them. My recent experience though was "no" in any circumstance to them accepting a transfer from an online dealer. It wasn't buds, but it didn't matter. Even though my local gun shop could not get me the gun from any of their distributors they would not accept it from an online dealer - I had to go elsewhere and did. Their loss.

dmacintyre
04-27-2011, 1:33 PM
I was on good terms with my FFLs back in MD but they all refused to accept incoming transfers from Buds. In fact it was the only source they did not accept incoming firearms from. Their prices appear good but add sales tax and DROS and I'd bet that you could get close enough with your local store to make the difference negligible. Also, remember Buds best prices are for "cash" so add a bank wire transfer fee or suchlike to the overall cost of the transaction. The only situation in which I would use Buds would be if there was a substantial price difference or my dealer could not source the gun for me.

MontClaire
04-27-2011, 1:35 PM
So it's better the local gun shop go out of business because you insist on buying from Bud's because they can undercut your local gun shop.

Without the local gun shops staying in business, how else will you do a transfer?

you don't need a shop to transfer. I transfer through home based FFL.:D

morfeeis
04-27-2011, 2:20 PM
I can understand a LGS fighting to make a profit but I will not support one that uses underhanded tactics such as charging more fee for no reason. @ the end of the day it's like the LGS is saying I'm charging you more just cause you are a smart shopper....

Dark Mod
04-27-2011, 2:23 PM
So it's better the local gun shop go out of business because you insist on buying from Bud's because they can undercut your local gun shop.

Without the local gun shops staying in business, how else will you do a transfer?

Actually yes, Survival of the fittest, supply and demand and all that. Im sick of paying double at Fowlers, so i dont go there. I would prefer they lose all their PPT business to someone who does it better, like OC armory for one. Just saying.

Sacramento Black Rifle
04-27-2011, 2:27 PM
I will take all transfers from BUD's I make my money no matter what. $75.00 total fee most the time my prices would be the same as if you bought from us directly after the fees.

21SF
04-27-2011, 2:37 PM
One thing is if the prices are close.

Have you guys been to canyon sports.

The have magical guns there, 3200 for a Daniel Defense M4. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Everything there is over priced, as if to say, " haha were the only ones, bend over".

Plisk
04-27-2011, 2:38 PM
and Ades in Anaheim are hiking their fees.

Anaheim? We're in Orange.

It is true we are raising our transfer rates on transfers only coming from Bud's Gun Shop/ Bud's Police Supply. They have unintentionally become a conflict of business. Too many times; customers have made a purchase with us being paid in full or placed on lay-away. Then they back-out of the purchase with us (paired by a sob story about being laid off), only to have the same firearm show up from Bud's with their name on it 2 weeks later. It's an interesting conversation to ask them why they purchased the same firearm from Bud's that they had from us when they had supposedly been laid off the previous month.

This is a necessary business move on our part. When we have 7-9 packages from Bud's showing up EVERYDAY and most of the firearms are ones we carry or regularly order... something isn't right. If you guys want to hunt for your best deal possible, that's fine it's your money. But we're not going to let it bleed us dry anymore.

Effective May 1st any firearm transfers coming from Bud's dated 5/1/11+ will be subject to a transfer rate of $100 (LEO/Mil discount still applies). Transfers from anywhere else will be under the regular fees.

-Kevin
Ade's Gun Shop

erejota
04-27-2011, 2:40 PM
Check with Davidson's Gun Gallery,good prices and a lifetime
guarantee for any gun you buy.

sniper4usmc
04-27-2011, 2:41 PM
I bought CZ SP-01 at Turners for $749.00 OTD it was on sale..If I buy Same pistol from Bud $575+$75 (transfer+DROS)=$650
$99 Saving

SVRider
04-27-2011, 3:01 PM
Too many times; customers have made a purchase with us being paid in full or placed on lay-away. Then they back-out of the purchase with us (paired by a sob story about being laid off), only to have the same firearm show up from Bud's with their name on it 2 weeks later.

Sounds like layaway cancellation fees are in order then....I don't think it is unreasonable to be compensated for your time and efforts if someone later backs out....

Sacramento Black Rifle
04-27-2011, 3:08 PM
Sounds like layaway cancellation fees are in order then....I don't think it is unreasonable to be compensated for your time and efforts if someone later backs out....

This is true!

dmacintyre
04-27-2011, 3:17 PM
I bought CZ SP-01 at Turners for $749.00 OTD it was on sale..If I buy Same pistol from Bud $575+$75 (transfer+DROS)=$650
$99 Saving

Add the sales tax to the Buds price and possibly wire transfer fee or certified check fee and how close is it? I presume Turners will let you have that price for CC or Debit Card purchases too. It all costs money.

sniper4usmc
04-27-2011, 3:21 PM
Add the sales tax to the Buds price and possibly wire transfer fee or certified check fee and how close is it? I presume Turners will let you have that price for CC or Debit Card purchases too. It all costs money.

My Local FFL ,which is Riflegear Dont charge Sales Tax from Out of state Transfer..and I always send Money Order payment to Buds..;);)

dmacintyre
04-27-2011, 3:22 PM
My Local FFL ,which is Riflegear Dont charge Sales Tax from Out of state Transfer

I don't think that collecting sales tax on out of state purchases is discretionary but I may be wrong. They / you may be breaking the law with that one.

EDIT : I meant the above in relation to purchases from dealers, not private individuals. I am led to believe that as the transaction is all recorded it is the one area which is audited.

Lead Waster
04-27-2011, 3:23 PM
Yeah, I would think just take a small non-refundable deposit or make it clear that you have a $30 restocking fee (or whatever).

However, I'd think that turning away transfers is simply turning away money. I think I would welcome each of those 7-9 daily packages from Buds because each one meant a $75 transfer fee. How is transfer fee profit different from gun sale profit? If you p/o enough customers then you'll get NO transfer fee profits at all and maybe that will affect gun sales as well.

Lead Waster
04-27-2011, 3:24 PM
I don't think that collecting sales tax on out of state purchases is discretionary but I may be wrong. They / you may be breaking the law with that one.

I think it's up to the purchaser to declare and pay the CA tax when they do their state tax returns, just like when you buy stuff off Amazon.

sniper4usmc
04-27-2011, 3:25 PM
I don't think that collecting sales tax on out of state purchases is discretionary but I may be wrong. They / you may be breaking the law with that one.

EDIT : I meant the above in relation to purchases from dealers, not private individuals. I am led to believe that as the transaction is all recorded it is the one area which is audited.

I dont pay Sales Tax from Amazon.com either;):D

dmacintyre
04-27-2011, 3:26 PM
I think it's up to the purchaser to declare and pay the CA tax when they do their state tax returns, just like when you buy stuff off Amazon.

So technically you should include it in any price comparisons?

shooterdude
04-27-2011, 3:30 PM
My Local FFL ,which is Riflegear Dont charge Sales Tax from Out of state Transfer..and I always send Money Order payment to Buds..;);)

They are supposed to and they will start after their next audit....

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=83728

You are going to pay the tax one way or the other.

On the other hand, why do people spend so much time trying to save $50 on a gun when you will spend $thousands shooting it over the long run? Isn't your time worth something?

sanjosebmx
04-27-2011, 3:39 PM
I checked Bud's on a recent purchase (SR9) they wanted $398 no shipping compared to Bass Pro Shop $519 (which is retail).

Luckilly I shop at Barnwood Arms, they sold it to me for (somewhere in between - closer to the Buds price) but save any transfer fees etc.. plus they treat me right there...

SkyStorm82
04-27-2011, 3:43 PM
Not knowing what it's like to run a gun shop....my first thought is that it's chicken **** to raise fees on transfers from Buds. Those shops that do are making it harder on us who are trying to make the most of our money.

dmacintyre
04-27-2011, 3:54 PM
Not knowing what it's like to run a gun shop....my first thought is that it's chicken **** to raise fees on transfers from Buds. Those shops that do are making it harder on us who are trying to make the most of our money.


I'm the cheapest S.o.B. around but look at it from their perspective. They have all sorts of overheads and probably want to have a decent wage left so they can make the most of their money, just like you. If one supplier is constantly taking away their business they can't be blamed for trying to attenuate that source or compensate for the loss incurred.

SkyStorm82
04-27-2011, 4:00 PM
Do shops make the bulk of thier money from gun sales or all the smaller things like ammo and accessories?

gripdad
04-27-2011, 4:10 PM
If a company can sell a gun, make a profit and ship it out of state for $100 less than you can sell it locally then maybe you have to reconsider your business model. Granted business is more expensive in CA but you have a large local customer base and no final sale shipping expenses. Maybe you could meet the customer half way and increase profits through greater volume while putting the "out of state" competition out of business. I'm not an expert but I'm betting it would work. I remember the old B&B Gun Sales in North Hollywood had good prices and always had customers waiting in line. I bought many guns from them.

FatCity67
04-27-2011, 4:12 PM
Vote with your feet people. Also remember pennywise pound poor.

If you dont like one gun shops policies. Move on down the line.

shooterdude
04-27-2011, 4:34 PM
Here is the complete CA list of FFL Holders:

http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/download/ffl-list-2011/03/0311-ffl-list-california.xls

Start dialin'....

Dark Mod
04-27-2011, 4:50 PM
Im not gonna tell you to change your business model, it obviously works for you. But no way in hell am i paying a premium for the privelage of doing business with you. Somehow Buds is able to sell guns with free shipping for $100 cheaper than anyone in california, I want them to have my money. I want to see businesses like these proliferate, earn a profit, push out competitors, dominate the market place. Im voting for buds on this one, i just feel theyve "earned" my business

Lead Waster
04-27-2011, 5:03 PM
I'm the cheapest S.o.B. around but look at it from their perspective. They have all sorts of overheads and probably want to have a decent wage left so they can make the most of their money, just like you. If one supplier is constantly taking away their business they can't be blamed for trying to attenuate that source or compensate for the loss incurred.

This is known as "Protectionism" The US (and every other country) does it all the time. You want steel? Sure buy some US steel...oh, you want (country X) steel, well, OK, but you know there is a %20 tariff on it, right?

How about this from a few years back ... "Oh, you're bringing your car from another state into CA? Well, give us $300 bucks because you didn't buy it here".

Lead Waster
04-27-2011, 5:08 PM
Oh yeah, there is a reason Buds can sell for so cheap.

Bob's Gun Shop - customer base = everyone within say, 100 miles of Bob's Gun Shop who wants to buy a gun, and for pistols, only every 30 days.

Bud's Gun Shop - customer base = Everyone who wants to buy a gun and has Internet access.

I'd say Bob's gun shop, with his potentially 100 customers can't compete with the tens of thouseands or more potential customers that Buds has, so Buds can sell for less.

ZX-10R
04-27-2011, 5:09 PM
I have bought local so far. I will pay a little more to have brick and mortar. That is me.

12voltguy
04-27-2011, 5:10 PM
There are lots of non-gunshop FFLs around. Many many "kitchen top" FFLs. They will just get more business.

Gunshops still have many things (aside from guns) that you wouldn't bother getting off the net. Some reloading stuff (primers, powders) are not worth it with the hazmat fees, etc. Also many guns sold on conscription.

Anyway, check the FFL transfer fees before blindly using a gunshop for a Bud's purchase.

I'll keep using Buds.

I don't think this is the point...this a case where one particular business is being targeted because of its ability to offer more competitive rates. As such, if the local GS cannot compete, then so much the worse for it. This is American capitalism and free markets at work...

I realize this is tantamount racking the "sacred cow" (the folkloric glories of the local GS), but as others have stated there are other ways to do transfers...

And perhaps local GSs need to rethink their business models, but I cannot speak affirmatively in that which I am ignorant of, in this case...

exactly!
this isn't a socialist usa yet...mumble gov bailouts for GM & gov, maybe they will bail out local gunshops next....NEVER guns are evil
I have bought several through BUds & through my local guy, & the other locals that think they can price these transfers way higher, well at least one is gone, & I don't shop AT any that pull that crap, they will be gone too.
vote with your $$

12voltguy
04-27-2011, 5:13 PM
Anaheim? We're in Orange.

It is true we are raising our transfer rates on transfers only coming from Bud's Gun Shop/ Bud's Police Supply. They have unintentionally become a conflict of business. Too many times; customers have made a purchase with us being paid in full or placed on lay-away. Then they back-out of the purchase with us (paired by a sob story about being laid off), only to have the same firearm show up from Bud's with their name on it 2 weeks later. It's an interesting conversation to ask them why they purchased the same firearm from Bud's that they had from us when they had supposedly been laid off the previous month.

This is a necessary business move on our part. When we have 7-9 packages from Bud's showing up EVERYDAY and most of the firearms are ones we carry or regularly order... something isn't right. If you guys want to hunt for your best deal possible, that's fine it's your money. But we're not going to let it bleed us dry anymore.

Effective May 1st any firearm transfers coming from Bud's dated 5/1/11+ will be subject to a transfer rate of $100 (LEO/Mil discount still applies). Transfers from anywhere else will be under the regular fees.

-Kevin
Ade's Gun Shop

CHARGE A $100 CANCELL FEE OR $200 OR?

SGGear
04-27-2011, 5:15 PM
I have no idea where some of the posters are getting their info. I purchased two from budsgunshp with free shipping and charged on credit card. Also they don't charge you for tax at buds where as a local gunshp in would. Also those local gunships can't charge you fOr tax because it's a transfer and not a purchase. If they do then go somewhere else. It's up to the purchaser to do taxes at the end of the year and if you accidentally forgot, they won't find you.

dmacintyre
04-27-2011, 5:23 PM
Well, I'll keep paying my local dealer a few extra bucks in order to be able to continue handling the guns I want before I buy them, order guns Buds might not have in stock, have a friendly store who doesn't tell me to pound sand when I come in for yet another PPT and have a high street with at least one business on it which isn't going down the pan.

I bet a lot of people that went into their now defunct local Borders for a browse before ordering their books from Amazon will regret they didn't give their local store more support than just going in to use the free Wi-Fi. I don't think that is a million miles away from the same situation.

Having said that I expect gun stores to appreciate I have options and choose to do business with them. I would also draw the line at more than about $100 net difference between the two sources.

Rukus
04-27-2011, 5:25 PM
I have no idea where some of the posters are getting their info. I purchased two from budsgunshp with free shipping and charged on credit card. Also they don't charge you for tax at buds where as a local gunshp in would. Also those local gunships can't charge you fOr tax because it's a transfer and not a purchase. If they do then go somewhere else. It's up to the purchaser to do taxes at the end of the year and if you accidentally forgot, they won't find you.

Unless policy has changed very recently, those CC payments incur a 3% fee. Also Buds recently sent out an email to CC customers saying they had temporarily disabled that option due to a hack in their database, and that if you purchased within a certain time frame to check your bank statements for fraudulent charges. Ask me how i know...:(

IPSICK
04-27-2011, 5:28 PM
I don't think this is the point...this a case where one particular business is being targeted because of its ability to offer more competitive rates. As such, if the local GS cannot compete, then so much the worse for it. This is American capitalism and free markets at work...

I realize this is tantamount racking the "sacred cow" (the folkloric glories of the local GS), but as others have stated there are other ways to do transfers...

And perhaps local GSs need to rethink their business models, but I cannot speak affirmatively in that which I am ignorant of, in this case...

This is not free market capitalism. This is approaching predatory pricing which is anathema to free market capitalism. Next thing you know, you'll tell me large corporations and the Federal Reserve system is free market capitalism.

drifts1
04-27-2011, 5:29 PM
Oh yeah, there is a reason Buds can sell for so cheap.

Bob's Gun Shop - customer base = everyone within say, 100 miles of Bob's Gun Shop who wants to buy a gun, and for pistols, only every 30 days.

Bud's Gun Shop - customer base = Everyone who wants to buy a gun and has Internet access.

I'd say Bob's gun shop, with his potentially 100 customers can't compete with the tens of thouseands or more potential customers that Buds has, so Buds can sell for less.

Here's an idea; Bob's gun shop starts an online-store in addition to his brick & mortar store to compete with Bud's. :D I would so support Bob's!

If not it will be like Blockbuster(Bob's) vs. Netflix (Buds's). And i think we all know how that turned out.

Rob454
04-27-2011, 5:36 PM
I don't think this is the point...this a case where one particular business is being targeted because of its ability to offer more competitive rates. As such, if the local GS cannot compete, then so much the worse for it. This is American capitalism and free markets at work...

..

you are right it is american capitalism that at least in California is impeded by the government and its rules on firearms, and add that along with higher taxes and a unfriendly attitude towards business of ANY kind yeah its pretty hard to stay competitive. Don't get me wrong I like a deal as much as the next guy but I can see the brick and mortar gun store point of view.
And since the out of state transfers do not fall under the 35$ PPT fee rules I can't say i blame them for charging higher prices.



My Local FFL ,which is Riflegear Dont charge Sales Tax from Out of state Transfer..and I always send Money Order payment to Buds..;);)

you are either supposed to pay the use tax or the store is supposed to collect it for you. Either way the state will eventually fix that small oversight.



If a company can sell a gun, make a profit and ship it out of state for $100 less than you can sell it locally then maybe you have to reconsider your business model. Granted business is more expensive in CA but you have a large local customer base and no final sale shipping expenses. Maybe you could meet the customer half way and increase profits through greater volume while putting the "out of state" competition out of business. I'm not an expert but I'm betting it would work. I remember the old B&B Gun Sales in North Hollywood had good prices and always had customers waiting in line. I bought many guns from them.

If you are talking about LEVEL field competition yeah everyone can keep cutting prices, BUT you are dealing with state regulations in a VERY VERY unfriendly towards business state government. So the deck is literally stacked against you from the start
I can guarantee you that the overhead in California is a lot higher than most other states. And that is just the basic monthly lease payment to occupy the place you are at. No counting the higher cost of living, EDD taxes and all other taxes and fees that a business has to pay. back when I had my business just a basic phone line was 150$ a month with Verizon. And for the most part you NEED a shop phone. Electrical bill for my little 800 sq ft shop was about 700$ a month. Forget the basic lease, the 1 million dollar insurance policy that was required I had when i moved in, and the many other small expenses that you had to watch for. Coffee, toilet paper, cups, soap, paper butt condoms, napkins, paper towels, all the EDD and Cal employment posters, s*8t i forgot but this should give you a idea of minimum stuff to run a business. lets not forget the advertizing, the tax on material that you did not sell that year ( yeah you gotta pay tax on it) and all the million little things besides customers who got mad at you cause they made the mistake but prefer to blame you for their oversight or f**k up. .

The large local customer base is STILL a customer base within a limited driving area. Say within 10-15 miles maybe stretch it to 20 but after that you better have some dedicated customers. And then in that 20 mile circle how many are actually gonna buy enough guns to really matter. I doubt they make as much as you think they do on a gun sale. The internet allows you to sell to a INSANELY large group. At that point its all about the lowest price. I bet there are people who literally go for the bottom lowest price and they would screw bud's over if they could get it somewhere else for $5 less.

B&B guns? yeah they had great prices. When was that? back before 2000. yeah when you could get a AK for $299 and a SKS for $85. Where are they now? I guess the prices were so good they closed up shop.

Like i said before I always look for the best price i can getand I will ask for a discount if possible. Lots of times I get the discount if i am buying. how many of you guys ask for a discount? I love having money saved in my pocket as much as anyone else.

I purchased one gun through online and that was because the local stores at the time did not carry it (Saiga 12) and my ONLY option was to get it online. When they started selling here the difference between my purchase price and the local purchase price was $40-$50. For $40-$50 i would of bought locally. Now if you are talking substantial savings 150+ even then go talk to the manager or owner. They may not be able to meet or beat the online price but they may be willing to drop the price to make the sale. If you have a problem then maybe they would be more willing to step up and see if they can help you.

Either way i cannot blame the FFLs for raising their rates. Say all the brick and mortar FFLs go out of business and all you have is the kitchen FFls. What happens when they raise their prices? I can understand the dog eat dog mentality but both dogs need to start on a level playing field.

This is no different than when customers would ask me for bids and then call me back to tell me that Xyz was able to give them a bid 3-4K less and they wanted to know why i was so high in my price. First thing I asked was if the other bidder was licensed and bonded. When the answer was no then I told them good luck getting him to finish the job or getting him to warranty the work.

shooterdude
04-27-2011, 6:13 PM
Oh yeah, there is a reason Buds can sell for so cheap.

Bob's Gun Shop - customer base = everyone within say, 100 miles of Bob's Gun Shop who wants to buy a gun, and for pistols, only every 30 days.

Bud's Gun Shop - customer base = Everyone who wants to buy a gun and has Internet access.

I'd say Bob's gun shop, with his potentially 100 customers can't compete with the tens of thouseands or more potential customers that Buds has, so Buds can sell for less.

Bob's gun shop COULD join the 21st century and sell online just like Bud's. They SHOULD be punished (lose business) for NOT being savvy enough to expand their business beyond customers within walking distance.

Plisk
04-27-2011, 6:26 PM
Sounds like layaway cancellation fees are in order then....I don't think it is unreasonable to be compensated for your time and efforts if someone later backs out....

We do have our fee policy for lay-away cancellations. What had been happening were people would give us a sob story about how they needed the money for whatever reason and we did them a favor and either didn't charge them a fee or reduced the fee. After doing that they buy the same gun from Buds.

CHARGE A $100 CANCELL FEE OR $200 OR?

I don't understand...

1911RONIN
04-27-2011, 7:58 PM
This is not free market capitalism. This is approaching predatory pricing which is anathema to free market capitalism. Next thing you know, you'll tell me large corporations and the Federal Reserve system is free market capitalism.

the vast majority of economists across the ideological spectrum believe "predatory pricing" is a fiction...even if it were a valid concept, it is notoriously difficult to prove. thus, your point is moot...the rest of your comment is merely a red herring...

I'm glad Kevin has weighed in, but I think it is unfortunate that ordinary transfer customers--those who don't pull these layaway shenanigans--are punished for the "sins" of another. As it always seems to be, a few jack*****e$ ruin it for everyone.

If California GSs have problems competing, however, something must change; either the business model or the legislation and regulation thwarting the existing model must go...or both. Perhaps GSs should form a coalition of sorts to lobby members of congress. the status quo is clearly onerous at the least, and at the very worst, a form of harassment...

Personally, I have gotten Web deals that have saved me $200 on a gun purchase, not to mention the huge inventory some like Buds have. Given how much I make now versus two years ago, $$$ is an issue...

ke6guj
04-27-2011, 8:15 PM
If a company can sell a gun, make a profit and ship it out of state for $100 less than you can sell it locally then maybe you have to reconsider your business model..

Somehow Buds is able to sell guns with free shipping for $100 cheaper than anyone in california,one thing to realize is that Bud's is basically a distributor, not a normal gun shop. Many/most of there inventory is at the distributor (Sports South, or something like that) and is drop shiped directly from the distributor, not Buds. Other FFLs have tried to set up with Sports South to do the same thing, without success. Bud's is selling in volume, and by dropshipping, doesn't have to pay double shipping on orders like other resellers do. BEcause of that, they can set pricing below what other shops can even buy the same firearm from Sports South.

Rob454
04-27-2011, 8:43 PM
Bob's gun shop COULD join the 21st century and sell online just like Bud's. They SHOULD be punished (lose business) for NOT being savvy enough to expand their business beyond customers within walking distance.

Yeah but Bud is a distributor while Bob is a dealer. The difference is Bob buys from a distributor like Bud. Basically the manufacturer sells his guns to Bud to get the item in the country. Bob buys his items from Bud to sell to the customer. Bud is the middle man between the manufacturer and the dealer. pretty hard to be competitive when the guy you get your items from not only sells to you at a mark up to make his nut he also cuts the legs from under you by selling at cheaper prices than you can sell the guns for without taking a loss on every sale. So unless Bob is able to become a distributor bob is always gonna be priced higher. Unless Bob want's to sell his guns at a loss to compete with Bud and then Bob will be on the street in no time.
So yeah Bud will pretty much put bob out of business. At this point Bob pretty much depends on local customers to keep his doors open or Bob can be a distributor unless the manufacturers do not allow more distributor applications which maybe a possibility.

Munk
04-27-2011, 8:44 PM
I'll support a local gunstore that justifies the extra price with extra value. Do you offer a free cleaning/inspection/installation on nightsights(nightsights not included) with purchase? Do you offer the ability for us to have visitation rights with our 10-day victims at your onsite range? Do you throw in a cleaning tip and a sample-sized bottle of hoppes? Do you offer discounted products/services to those who buy guns from you, or a set number of guns from you? How are you justifying the extra cost to the consumer?

Where's the value?

If the value proposition is such that I get the same exact product, within a reasonable timeframe (about the same as if you had to order it for me, or get it from your off-site warehouse), and I save money, why would I not do it?

"Support your local shops", yeah that's a nice sentiment, and great emotional appeal. It still doesn't explain why the customer is expected to make up for a store's shortcomings. Go to community college, take a marketing class, and figure out what the value proposition is that are offering your customers to justify the price.

morfeeis
04-27-2011, 8:46 PM
Sounds like layaway cancellation fees are in order then....I don't think it is unreasonable to be compensated for your time and efforts if someone later backs out....

Buds charges %20 they say if your not paid in full after 90 days say bye bye to your deposit......

Plisk
04-27-2011, 8:48 PM
I'll support a local gunstore that justifies the extra price with extra value. Do you offer a free cleaning/inspection/installation on nightsights(nightsights not included) with purchase? Do you offer the ability for us to have visitation rights with our 10-day victims at your onsite range? Do you throw in a cleaning tip and a sample-sized bottle of hoppes? Do you offer discounted products/services to those who buy guns from you, or a set number of guns from you? How are you justifying the extra cost to the consumer?

Where's the value?

If the value proposition is such that I get the same exact product, within a reasonable timeframe (about the same as if you had to order it for me, or get it from your off-site warehouse), and I save money, why would I not do it?

"Support your local shops", yeah that's a nice sentiment, and great emotional appeal. It still doesn't explain why the customer is expected to make up for a store's shortcomings. Go to community college, take a marketing class, and figure out what the value proposition is that are offering your customers to justify the price.

I personally will do everything in my power to help out someone who has purchased from us, unless I'm swamped with other customers I'll take the time to sit down and answer any questions I can about the gun. Talk about accessories, go through a take-down walk-through, recommend places to go or products to try. Hell, lately I've been offering to take new/newer shooters over to a local range to give them a free lesson with their gun.

If you're our customer, then we'll work with you.

-Kevin
Ade's Gun Shop

Bud11
04-27-2011, 8:54 PM
Only two gun dealers near me, both very high prices. Bud's (no sales tax or shippping) is still $140 cheaper on my probable next purchase, after the $50 fee from a local FFL woking out of his house. Big difference. Plus neither local guy has hardly any inventory, and nothing close to what I want. Score one for Bud's. Bud

navraster
04-28-2011, 12:34 AM
First off - I have ordered from Bud's, and it was a fine experience. But I wouldn't have gone through all the hassle if any local gun store had the gun I wanted in stock for a reasonable price. $40-$50 isn't a bad markup for being able to see the exact gun I am purchasing and being able to ask questions about it.

But my 1911 was $350 cheaper from Bud's (after the transfer fee even!!) than from the only local gun store that could even say they would order it for me. When I told them to order it, they told me it would be a 3-4 month delay, yet the gun was in stock at Bud's. I hadn't even heard of Bud's until I got frustrated trying to find my gun locally.

I feel sorry for the local gunstores who have to mark up their guns just to make a profit. I LIKE having local gunstores open. I just don't like it enough to pay an extra $350 and wait 3-4 months. The difference in price would probably be less on a Glock or Sig, but we still aren't talking peanuts. It's a significant difference, even taking into account received value and not pure price.

If Bud's can do it, so can other dealers. There are, in fact, about 10 other online stores that run nearly neck and neck with Bud's for pricing, though none have the same comprehensive selection. If a group of local gunshops were to partner up with them, I do think prices could come down. But it would require local gunstores to get their heads out of their *behinds, which very few seem to be able to do with regards to customer service, let alone pricing. (I do want to give credit to Annie's Get Your Gun in Corona. They have consistently been nice and helpful. I have visited almost all the gunstores in LA and OC and they stand above for service. Prices aren't great, but I almost don't mind. The OC Armory is great too, but I am not interested in black rifles and they carry little else.)

Blackhawk556
04-28-2011, 12:46 AM
Here's what bothers me. People says California gun stores have to pay for this and that, well guess what, other types of businesses have to pay for some of that stuff too. Here's what drives me crazy, yesterday I went to a gun store and they wanted $1150 for the EMP. About five miles down the road a much bigger gun store wanted $1350 for the exact same gun. What the heck is that all about??? Also, why is it that alquist arms is able to offer awesome prices (IMO) and gun stores in Madera, Fresno, Clovis, chowchilla and Visalia sell at a much higher price??? I seriously think some gun stores sell at a higher price and hide behind "that's the cost of being a gun owner in california" without it being true all the time. Some times yes it might be true, but not always like some make it seem.

Blackhawk556
04-28-2011, 12:51 AM
@ROB454................A lot of the things you mentioned have to be purchased by other businesses as well. People who are opening up a gun store these days should know about the costs of opening up a shop. If they think its too much then may be they shouldn't open a business. ......I can guarantee you that the overhead in California is a lot higher than most other states. And that is just the basic monthly lease payment to occupy the place you are at. No counting the higher cost of living, EDD taxes and all other taxes and fees that a business has to pay. back when I had my business just a basic phone line was 150$ a month with Verizon. And for the most part you NEED a shop phone. Electrical bill for my little 800 sq ft shop was about 700$ a month. Forget the basic lease, the 1 million dollar insurance policy that was required I had when i moved in, and the many other small expenses that you had to watch for. Coffee, toilet paper, cups, soap, paper butt condoms, napkins, paper towels, all the EDD and Cal employment posters, s*8t i forgot but this should give you a idea of minimum stuff to run a business. lets not forget the advertizing, the tax on material that you did not sell that year ( yeah you gotta pay tax on it) and all the million little things besides customers who got mad at you cause they made the mistake but prefer to blame you for their oversight or f**k up. . "

AlliedArmory
04-28-2011, 1:02 AM
I don't think that collecting sales tax on out of state purchases is discretionary but I may be wrong. They / you may be breaking the law with that one.

EDIT : I meant the above in relation to purchases from dealers, not private individuals. I am led to believe that as the transaction is all recorded it is the one area which is audited.


It's no different than making a purchase on amazon.com. The buyer is responsible for paying the use tax on it when doing your taxes at the end of the year.

Falstaff
04-28-2011, 2:58 AM
Tracy Rifle and Pistol is collecting sales tax on bud's transfers now, which makes it almost a wash after the transfer fee ($65.00)
I only buy things from Bud's that the local stores don't carry/can't get. (Bud's does have incredible prices and policies though... free shipping, cash discount huge selection)
Bud's has pretty good ammo/gear prices too.

shooterdude
04-28-2011, 6:02 AM
one thing to realize is that Bud's is basically a distributor, not a normal gun shop. Many/most of there inventory is at the distributor (Sports South, or something like that) and is drop shiped directly from the distributor, not Buds. Other FFLs have tried to set up with Sports South to do the same thing, without success. Bud's is selling in volume, and by dropshipping, doesn't have to pay double shipping on orders like other resellers do. BEcause of that, they can set pricing below what other shops can even buy the same firearm from Sports South.

Based on your description, Buds is a retailer not a distributor. Distributors make an inventory investment from the manufacturer so if another distributor is drop shipping for Bud's then they are a retailer.

kblack583
04-28-2011, 6:11 AM
One of the great things about Buds is the Buds GE Capital card. Basically, you use it like a credit card (3% extra) and you get 6 months 0% interest. I keep waiting for a local shop to do soemthing like this.

ZNinerFan
04-28-2011, 6:34 AM
I gave up on buying new guns in general. Most of the local shops in my area don't have large enough inventories to carry what I am looking for. The guns they do have in stock are sometimes $200 - $300 more than what I can find online. I do my best to support local shops by buying magazines or other accessories but have pretty much stopped buying guns.

I find the buy/sell here on Calguns will usually have the gun I am looking for in slightly used condition every few months if I am willing to wait for something to pop up. You usually get a few extra's that you normally wouldn't get buying new since folks are moving away from a platform altogether.

daveinwoodland
04-28-2011, 6:45 AM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently purchased a Weatherby from Bud's and saved a little over 200.00. My local store which is awesome about transfers spent about 10 minutes total with me filling out the paper work and made 70.00.

This is pure profit with the exception of the 10 minutes spent. Why wouldn't a store want that? What am I not seeing here?

Z.1
04-28-2011, 7:46 AM
Interesting discussion. I have bought from Buds before, but used my local shop for my most recent gun purchase. Why? I could have gotten the same rifle (Winchester Model 70) cheaper from Buds... BUT Sportsmans Arms here in Petaluma was able to offer me additional value, i.e. accessories and ammo for my rifle for his COST as long as I own the gun! Wow!
What happened? Gabe was able to find a way to DIFFERENTIATE his business. Maybe he couldn't compete based solely on price, but his PRODUCT (store atmosphere, expertise, added value) was sufficient to sway my decision.
Those that want to buy locally, great! I think its good to keep local gun shops alive, they help us fight the good fight. However, whining and complaining that its sooo hard to be a gun shop in CA isn't going to get you anywhere. There are ways of competing with the market leader (Buds), but you have to be CREATIVE and sell your customers something they can't get elsewhere. Selling the exact same product (guns) at a higher price is a losing model. Add value to that same product, and you're in business.
Sounds like giving people a lesson with their new toy is a good start ;)

x_ray
04-28-2011, 8:06 AM
There are lots of non-gunshop FFLs around. Many many "kitchen top" FFLs. They will just get more business.

Gunshops still have many things (aside from guns) that you wouldn't bother getting off the net. Some reloading stuff (primers, powders) are not worth it with the hazmat fees, etc. Also many guns sold on conscription.

Anyway, check the FFL transfer fees before blindly using a gunshop for a Bud's purchase.

I'll keep using Buds.

"Kitchen top" FFL's? How does one find out if there are in in their area?

eltorito
04-28-2011, 8:06 AM
Gotta love strong arm tactics...

If you dont like Ade's scheme just simply dont shop there anymore. They will suffer in loss of revenue. Every time I walk into my local gun shop I buy something. If they put in place a policy that I did not agree with, I would simply stop shopping there.

This aint my first hobby. It is the same story for just about ALL hobbies out there. Local stores complaining about online sales and coming up with "take it or leave it" policies.

Me and many others spend too much time of our lives breaking a sweat to make sure we all have choices. And then have some store try guilt me into spending more money just cause... dont think so.

Donny1
04-28-2011, 8:14 AM
On two occasions I found guns online that I wanted that were significantly cheaper than the local shops. But after discussing the transfer (in person) with a local shop they said that they would match the price.

When you consider say $50-$75 for the transfer plus the shipping, $15-$25, I don't see why a local FFL could not match the price. If they can't simple math tells me that there are making more than the $100 difference on the local sale. Seems kind of greedy to me. So really, you can't cut the price a little so the end figure comes out the same? There are FFL's that have done this for me and it has paid off for them by gaining a loyal customer that buys ammo, accessories and gear.

a1c
04-28-2011, 8:17 AM
I'd rather pay 10-20% more and give my business to a local, friendly, competent mom-and-pop FFL, rather than buy something from the WalMart of firearms, and then ask my local FFL for a service where they are not going to make any money and basically have some big outlet take business away from them.

Keep in mind that the transfer "business" is the result of cumbersome state and federal laws. It's got nothing to do with free market. It's like buying your booze from out-of-state, and then have it shipped to your local liquor store, and pick it up there for a small fee. It doesn't make any sense for the local business.

They only reason it works that way is because FFLs are required to provide that service. But not only are they not making any money out of it, they are seeing larger companies take business away from them. This is not about brick-and-mortar vs. online retail. That's not the right analogy, since when I buy tools, gear or ammo online, I don't have to go through a local shop to pick it up.

I only buy firearms from local FFLs or individuals, with the exception of some C&R long guns I can get shipped to my doorstep. But I like giving my business to local shop owners I know by name, even if it means paying a few extra bucks, just like I like to shop at the farmer's market for my produce, or get my grassfed beef and lamb from the local ranchers. I believe in supporting my local community and businesses, as long as they run a good business.

shooterdude
04-28-2011, 8:20 AM
"Kitchen top" FFL's? How does one find out if there are in in their area?

Go here: http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/ffl-list.html

Download the latest list.

Steve G
04-28-2011, 8:29 AM
It's my $$$. More in my pocket=smart decision. There are plenty of kitchen table FFL's around to do transfers, just take a look. $100 for a transfer is gouging. Educate yourselves and save $$.

Z.1
04-28-2011, 8:35 AM
It's great if you're willing to pay extra to support your community. I wish all of us could afford to do that. Unfortunately, most people will make a purchase based primarily on price unless they receive better value for their money. Especially these days.

Fact is, Buds created a smart business model and it's becoming tougher and tougher to compete based on price. Amazon dominates the book marketplace. Does that mean I can't open a local bookstore? Not at all. But I'd better think up a way to offer something more than just the same books that Amazon sells, because chances are, I'm not going to be able to beat their price.

I'm more than happy to support my local shop, and I do. But not just because they're there. They need to earn my business, if they can't, they cant. If they can meet the total cost (transfer, tax, dros, etc.) of ordering from Buds, local shops should be proactive and let customers know. If not, they need to think up a way to add more value to what they can offer.

sniper4usmc
04-28-2011, 8:38 AM
I rather buy from bud and save $100....$$ toward ammo,extra mags or TLR-1s

707electrician
04-28-2011, 8:41 AM
Here's what bothers me. People says California gun stores have to pay for this and that, well guess what, other types of businesses have to pay for some of that stuff too. Here's what drives me crazy, yesterday I went to a gun store and they wanted $1150 for the EMP. About five miles down the road a much bigger gun store wanted $1350 for the exact same gun. What the heck is that all about??? Also, why is it that alquist arms is able to offer awesome prices (IMO) and gun stores in Madera, Fresno, Clovis, chowchilla and Visalia sell at a much higher price??? I seriously think some gun stores sell at a higher price and hide behind "that's the cost of being a gun owner in california" without it being true all the time. Some times yes it might be true, but not always like some make it seem.

THIS!

There is a gunshop right down the street from me that I have spent a good amount of money at and also directed a lot of business to that they would have not otherwise gotten and they are good people so I try to buy from there when I can. So I was in there the other day and I took a look at the EMP they had that was listed at $1300, that is $1450 out the door. Target Masters in Milpitas has the same gun listed at $1147 and if you include the gas it would take to get there and back twice I would still only be paying about $1370 out the door but these gun shops are so unwilling to price match because they "are already barely making any money on the gun"

What does that mean, is the shop selling it for $150 less losing money?

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 9:00 AM
It means that most gun stores operate on bad business models. Think about all the FUD most B&M Gun stores float. Think about the attitudes most people find in small B&M Gunstores.

Lets take a look at winning business model vs failing one for B&M.
Winning:

Valkyrie Arms- hole in the wall size to save on frontage square foot costs. Specifically targets a strong market that exists due to something called The Roster. Offers something you just can't get anywhere else, unless you PPT. They back that up with "the complete package" covering conversion and reconversion to ensure their customer gets it all done. The result? More business than they can handle which says one thing. The market is so large that the few stores also in said specific market are unable to meet demand. By exploiting an unserved or underserved market they have carved out a profitable existence for their business where expansion is the future outlook. Good growth potential.

Failing: Joe Gun Shop: Business model of "guns are cool, I want to sell guns". Enters a market that is cutthroat and heavily served. Operates on 1980's style business. Struggles to make it, and can't price competitively because he lacks the ability to. Gets angry at a successful business model like Buds and ends up driving away even more business.

Let me put it another way. If you business is selling guns, you need to sell them. However selling a gun is a transaction full of red tape and an inventory item. In california INVENTORY IS BAD!

So comes Buds Gun Shop. You have a customer that won't buy your overpriced inventory that is sitting there COSTING YOU MONEY but gets a gun shipped from Buds and wants to do the transaction there.
You A: Being a small minded grumpy and overly greedy frakker and you tell the customer to piss off because he isn't buying your crappy over priced product. You lose any money you COULD have made on the transaction, you lose the customer forever, you also probably lose all the customers friends. You just killed your business.

OR
You B: Realize that it takes time (yours or an employee's) to order, stock, track, negotiate with distributors etc Guns and a light bulb goes on in your head and you realize that for all of about 5 minutes of your time you can transact for customers via Bud's. You check around and see what everyone else is charging on transfer fee's and undercut them. You then advertise that you give special discounts to those doing transfers from Bud's, you contact Bud's and maybe try to negotiate a deal that is benefitial to both. You now do 10-15 transactions a day that take no time and make the equiv of about 300 400 an hour if you factor income vs time per transaction. You only keep on hand small stock lowering your overhead. You facilitate transfers for you customers but keep a few guns on hand as demos or possible sales. Word gets around, people start flocking to your door to get a good deal on out of state transfers. You get more business. You offer accessories to go with their new Bud's Gun. You advertise on the internet with a 21st century webpage that allows people to schedule to come in and do their Bud's Transfer. You maybe even link up with Buds so they can buy complete get redirected to you, schedule and be happy. Your business grows. You have happy customers, you reduce overhead. You are no profitable, stable, you are on the leading curve of the gun sales market. Rather than fighting the current you are cruising with it in full control. Exploiting every opportunity with a mobile and flexible business model that adapts to changing conditions in your market.

triplestack3
04-28-2011, 9:05 AM
Maybe they don't have the same overhead expenses.
Maybe they didn't pay the same price for the item.
Lots of variables, even though things might look similar on the front end.

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 9:15 AM
similar does not matter. Business Model of the store has to be competitive. In a tight economy you have to be even MORE competitive because people are hyper price sensitive.

You can look at it as an opportunity and profit by it or be hostile to it and lose out by your own actions. Capitalism is not "soft fluffy protective bunnies" economic system. It is more Darwinian. Strong survive, the weak perish. Most gun stores have horrible business models and are not run by people with any kind of business savvy.

One local store decided that selling guns was more of a side thing and instead found that it was more profitable offering lessons and an indoor range and accessories. Their price for guns are often 150-300 more than other places (before tax and you will pay even more tax because of the higher base price). For whatever reason, it does not matter consumer is price sensitive and 150 alone is a ton of $$. So they expanded into range and training. They make good money everywhere except gun sales. Hmmm.....

Another local store sells guns for reasonable prices (still high though) but makes their money by expanding their business into all things outdoorsy and specialized. Things you can't get except at hunting stores. In addition they added on a Bar and Grill. The bar and grill is PACKED just about every night with a line out the door and people crammed in parking round the entire building. Huge profit through the Bar and Grill.

From a Brick and Mortar perspective selling physically inventoried guns is a losing game. What totally horks me off is that I have yet to see a professional web site for most B&M gun stores. If they have on its old or out of date or lacks features, does not list prices or what is stocked. They need to get out of the 20st century business model and into the future if they want to continue to exist. No one "deserves" business success, they earn it. My family lost a business in 91, so I know how this works and what makes or breaks one.

Z.1
04-28-2011, 9:26 AM
Meaty, you are exactly right on all counts. :thumbsup:

Swoop
04-28-2011, 9:35 AM
+$15 big deal , if you save hundreds who cares??

Dealers should take a cut $ if you back out of a lay away and it should be substantial.

The only reason I wouldn't buy at my local / preferred shop (Ade's/EM&M) is if I'm saving $150+ and I still xfer there because at least they make $60 off it I think total fee is $85. On another note turners is worthless I'd never do a xfer there and even try to avoid it for ppt thanks to 90% of the worthless employees they have.

triplestack3
04-28-2011, 9:40 AM
similar does not matter. Business Model of the store has to be competitive. In a tight economy you have to be even MORE competitive because people are hyper price sensitive.

When I said similar on the front end, I'm talking about retail space, number of employees, etc. Two shops can look the same, but can have different business models and different back end costs - this is the point that I am trying to illustrate to explain why two similar appearing stores can have pricing variances. This set aside, I'm in agreement with the rest of the points that you make, especially with web sites. It's not 1996 anymore!

MaHoTex
04-28-2011, 9:46 AM
It's no different than making a purchase on amazon.com. The buyer is responsible for paying the use tax on it when doing your taxes at the end of the year.

Yeah... Right... :rolleyes: I am sure EVERYONE is doing that... no wait... maybe 50%... hmmm no... 10%? Doubtful... How about NONE. Yeah... that is more like it.

FUBAR
04-28-2011, 10:02 AM
It means that most gun stores operate on bad business models. Think about all the FUD most B&M Gun stores float. Think about the attitudes most people find in small B&M Gunstores.

Lets take a look at winning business model vs failing one for B&M.
Winning:

Valkyrie Arms- hole in the wall size to save on frontage square foot costs. Specifically targets a strong market that exists due to something called The Roster. Offers something you just can't get anywhere else, unless you PPT. They back that up with "the complete package" covering conversion and reconversion to ensure their customer gets it all done. The result? More business than they can handle which says one thing. The market is so large that the few stores also in said specific market are unable to meet demand. By exploiting an unserved or underserved market they have carved out a profitable existence for their business where expansion is the future outlook. Good growth potential.

Failing: Joe Gun Shop: Business model of "guns are cool, I want to sell guns". Enters a market that is cutthroat and heavily served. Operates on 1980's style business. Struggles to make it, and can't price competitively because he lacks the ability to. Gets angry at a successful business model like Buds and ends up driving away even more business.

Let me put it another way. If you business is selling guns, you need to sell them. However selling a gun is a transaction full of red tape and an inventory item. In california INVENTORY IS BAD!

So comes Buds Gun Shop. You have a customer that won't buy your overpriced inventory that is sitting there COSTING YOU MONEY but gets a gun shipped from Buds and wants to do the transaction there.
You A: Being a small minded grumpy and overly greedy frakker and you tell the customer to piss off because he isn't buying your crappy over priced product. You lose any money you COULD have made on the transaction, you lose the customer forever, you also probably lose all the customers friends. You just killed your business.

OR
You B: Realize that it takes time (yours or an employee's) to order, stock, track, negotiate with distributors etc Guns and a light bulb goes on in your head and you realize that for all of about 5 minutes of your time you can transact for customers via Bud's. You check around and see what everyone else is charging on transfer fee's and undercut them. You then advertise that you give special discounts to those doing transfers from Bud's, you contact Bud's and maybe try to negotiate a deal that is benefitial to both. You now do 10-15 transactions a day that take no time and make the equiv of about 300 400 an hour if you factor income vs time per transaction. You only keep on hand small stock lowering your overhead. You facilitate transfers for you customers but keep a few guns on hand as demos or possible sales. Word gets around, people start flocking to your door to get a good deal on out of state transfers. You get more business. You offer accessories to go with their new Bud's Gun. You advertise on the internet with a 21st century webpage that allows people to schedule to come in and do their Bud's Transfer. You maybe even link up with Buds so they can buy complete get redirected to you, schedule and be happy. Your business grows. You have happy customers, you reduce overhead. You are no profitable, stable, you are on the leading curve of the gun sales market. Rather than fighting the current you are cruising with it in full control. Exploiting every opportunity with a mobile and flexible business model that adapts to changing conditions in your market.

One of the smartest posts I've read on this forum. This got me thinking...

USMC VET
04-28-2011, 10:12 AM
There are lots of non-gunshop FFLs around. Many many "kitchen top" FFLs. They will just get more business.

Gunshops still have many things (aside from guns) that you wouldn't bother getting off the net. Some reloading stuff (primers, powders) are not worth it with the hazmat fees, etc. Also many guns sold on conscription.

Anyway, check the FFL transfer fees before blindly using a gunshop for a Bud's purchase.

I'll keep using Buds.

This

762.DEFENSE
04-28-2011, 10:18 AM
you don't need a shop to transfer. I transfer through home based FFL.:D

So do I. Plus my FFL works closely with buds. Lol

mlgs00
04-28-2011, 11:01 AM
From what I have heard, Bud's Guns is a distributor who sells directly to the public. They purchase from the manufacturers in large quantities at distributor prices. Local gun stores buy their guns from distributors. Distributors make their profit by marking up the price for the product that they are reselling. By the time the local gun shop can acquire the gun you want, there has already been an extra layer of profit added into the price the customer will have to pay. Buds can sell guns for less because they pay less for them. Don't blame your local gun store because they can't match Buds prices.

Munk
04-28-2011, 11:15 AM
I personally will do everything in my power to help out someone who has purchased from us, unless I'm swamped with other customers I'll take the time to sit down and answer any questions I can about the gun. Talk about accessories, go through a take-down walk-through, recommend places to go or products to try. Hell, lately I've been offering to take new/newer shooters over to a local range to give them a free lesson with their gun.

If you're our customer, then we'll work with you.

-Kevin
Ade's Gun Shop

I love this attitude. This is the kind of thing that adds the value to a brick and mortar purchase that justifies a minor markup. For a gun under 1000$, i'd accept a markup of up to 40$ for this kind of service.

Z.1
04-28-2011, 11:25 AM
From what I have heard, Bud's Guns is a distributor who sells directly to the public. They purchase from the manufacturers in large quantities at distributor prices. Local gun stores buy their guns from distributors. Distributors make their profit by marking up the price for the product that they are reselling. By the time the local gun shop can acquire the gun you want, there has already been an extra layer of profit added into the price the customer will have to pay. Buds can sell guns for less because they pay less for them. Don't blame your local gun store because they can't match Buds prices.

Why not? It's called streamlining or managing your supply chain. There are ways to bypass middlemen. You may not be able to match Bud's prices exactly, but with some effort and ingenuity you should be able to get close enough that you can make up the difference with some other service, etc. that is of value to the consumer. I'm not saying it would be easy, but if you're running a business and your supplier isn't performing to adequately suit your needs, you find a new supplier. There's enough competition in the industry to rely on market value for the inputs you need to operate.

Now, if their overhead or labor costs are too high, and they're marking up their prices to cover these, thats a different story. Also the shop's fault though. Find a cheaper retail location or find cheaper labor. Either way, saying they can't possibly compete is a lame excuse, it's possible just not easy.

Lead Waster
04-28-2011, 11:35 AM
OK, so a local gun shop with GOOD EMPLOYEES is worth the extra money if you walk in there and say "I'm looking for something for Home Defense, OR target shooting, OR whatever" and the employee says "Well, OK, I tihnk that a gun of caliber X will fit your needs, here are my suggestions. Try holding it and see how it feels". If the employee then goes and answers your questions, etc, etc, then definitely buy from that gun store, why ... because they provided a service for you. Yes, it's crappy if you then say "Thanks!" then leave and order the gun from Buds.

If on the other hand, you know what you want and simply want to order the gun, then Buds and a home-based kitchen table top FFL is the best way to save money.

Often though, you go into LGS, speak to some crusty old condescending coot and leave with a bad taste in your mouth. Go elsewhere then.

Oh, I should point out that I think Impact Arms is another online store that seems to be quite competitive with Buds. They might have a different relationship with their suppliers though. I ordered a CZ-75 from them, it wasn't in stock, they were looking to many suppliers, not just the CZ warehouse. In the end their customer service reps told me two things. The first said "2 months" the second said "Oh, why did you cancel, we found one at Bob's gun shop"...well whatever, I ordered it from Buds instead because if it's on their site and you can click the "buy" button, then it's in stock.

goldengate
04-28-2011, 11:37 AM
To Meaty-btz, if I am opening a gun shop, you will be hired as an consultant. I cannot agree more with what you said.

Btw, alot of these websites that has great prices actually have a store front. So, they are double dipping. In California, we have the Roster, so why not start a website for your shop and start selling non-roster guns to other States. There you go, you just expanded your business. And with your new customers online, you can offer lower price locally because you can afford a lower margin of profit due to high volume of customers. Local shops, please think about it.

707electrician
04-28-2011, 11:39 AM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently purchased a Weatherby from Bud's and saved a little over 200.00. My local store which is awesome about transfers spent about 10 minutes total with me filling out the paper work and made 70.00.

This is pure profit with the exception of the 10 minutes spent. Why wouldn't a store want that? What am I not seeing here?

I also fail to see what the issue is as well. That employee is standing behind the counter getting paid whether you are there or not so why complain about doing OOS transfers when it is essentially a service making ~$280/hr ($70 for 15 min of paperwork)

IPSICK
04-28-2011, 12:00 PM
I also fail to see what the issue is as well. That employee is standing behind the counter getting paid whether you are there or not so why complain about doing OOS transfers when it is essentially a service making ~$280/hr ($70 for 15 min of paperwork)

Just to confirm, but you're talking about $95 for the transfer correct? $70 for the shop and $25 for the state. Sounds reasonable to me, but I thought people around here will believe that is too expensive for a transfer fee.

Blackhawk556
04-28-2011, 12:10 PM
I have a question, how hard is it for a gun store to order guns from different distributors? Can't a gun store just call up a bunch of distributors and order from who ever has the best price? Also, why is it that very few stores offer GSSF? If some stores can offer great prices on glocks, why don't other stores do what is necessary to take part in this program??

Plisk
04-28-2011, 12:15 PM
I have a question, how hard is it for a gun store to order guns from different distributors? Can't a gun store just call up a bunch of distributors and order from who ever has the best price? Also, why is it that very few stores offer GSSF? If some stores can offer great prices on glocks, why don't other stores do what is necessary to take part in this program??

It's not very hard, some distributors have online inventory that they can usually check while I'm on the phone with you. If not, it's usually a phone call or two away to get price and availability.

707electrician
04-28-2011, 12:17 PM
Just to confirm, but you're talking about $95 for the transfer correct? $70 for the shop and $25 for the state. Sounds reasonable to me, but I thought people around here will believe that is too expensive for a transfer fee.

That is just the example I was quoting. I don't know if that included dros or not but even if it didn't that is still a reasonable transfer price. Most of the shops near me are $125-150 for the transfer not including dros

IPSICK
04-28-2011, 12:23 PM
That is just the example I was quoting. I don't know if that included dros or not but even if it didn't that is still a reasonable transfer price. Most of the shops near me are $125-150 for the transfer not including dros

$100 and below is reasonable to me, but I got the impression people thought they are being gouged if the fee total was above $50.

gorenut
04-28-2011, 12:24 PM
I also fail to see what the issue is as well. That employee is standing behind the counter getting paid whether you are there or not so why complain about doing OOS transfers when it is essentially a service making ~$280/hr ($70 for 15 min of paperwork)

How I see it as well. I mean.. I get it that shops are charging more because they see Buds as a competitor and taking away their sales.. but unless they can get every shop and FFL to do the same.. I don't see any impact other than potential money they could have made out the door. On top of less bodies entering the store - you never know.. someone coming in to do an FFL may purchase other things, on top of bringing friend(s) with them when they do the paperwork. Someone looking to save money will just go to another FFL. If anything, it causes negative publicity to discriminate a single seller and makes them come off as seemingly like they're just trying to rip off the buyer.

Nothing against Ades of course. I purchased my first P226 from there (at its old location) and it was at a very reasonable price (only $75 more than online site counting FFL).

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 12:59 PM
The ideal is you want MORE buds gun transactions. Someone here mentioned a store was upset about doing 10-15 a day. OMG! Pure profit transaction 10-15 times a day. Hell I would see that and think.. how can I make that 100 times a day. The margin is way better so the goal will be to up volume so that the gross is high enough to start to lean on for the mainstay of shop profit.

LGS or B&Ms should focus on Value Added Sales.
-To move local product they should price competitively and value add with accessories at a good price and most of all Expertise. When someone talks to a salesman they are not looking to be "sold" they are looking to tap the salesman's expertise. That's why you pay the sales staff. Otherwise you can populate your store with trained monkeys that can run the register just as well.

As for the other suggestion here in this thread, someone mentioned off-roster weapons to out of state people. You do know you can do that, right? California FFLs can import off-roster but can only sell to california residents who are exempt (LEO) or back to out of state persons.

And remember, volume volume volume! IF margins are tight run for volume, if margins are fat still run for volume. The more you sell the more you make. SELL SELL SELL.

A note for those thinking .. hehe eeeeassssy money. Running your own business is a ton of work. Harder than working for someone else, all the stress is yours to own just like the store. You will work long hours for almost no pay until the business gets off the ground. Then you will work even longer hours for a little more pay till the business grows to the point you hire a manager and then you sit back and enjoy the rest of your life. It will RULE YOUR LIFE! Days off? Not for you for a while, expect 7 days a week of work, with you wishing for an 8th day to get more done. Everyone looks at the 50 something wealthy small business owner who never works, lives well, and rakes it in and thinks that is what owning your own business is like. It isn't, you missed the previous 15-20 years he spent getting to this point.

kemasa
04-28-2011, 1:15 PM
I think it's up to the purchaser to declare and pay the CA tax when they do their state tax returns, just like when you buy stuff off Amazon.

Think again. This is incorrect.

It's no different than making a purchase on amazon.com. The buyer is responsible for paying the use tax on it when doing your taxes at the end of the year.

Also Incorrect, the CA business (aka FFL) is required to collect the sales tax.

I have no idea where some of the posters are getting their info. I purchased two from budsgunshp with free shipping and charged on credit card. Also they don't charge you for tax at buds where as a local gunshp in would. Also those local gunships can't charge you fOr tax because it's a transfer and not a purchase. If they do then go somewhere else. It's up to the purchaser to do taxes at the end of the year and if you accidentally forgot, they won't find you.

The CA FFL is required by the CA BOE to collect sales tax on firearms coming from out of state and which comes from a business.

It is not a transfer, it is a purchase. While you might pay directly, you do not own the firearm unless and until the paperwork is done. That is considered the sale.

See: CA Sales Tax Firearms Information 495.0843 & 495.0848

Also, if the shipping is not broken out, then you (the customer) get to pay additional sales tax on that amount.

BTW, not all of the Bud's prices are so good. They also hit you up with insurance for shipping and due to how they work, they firearm can take a couple of weeks to ship. One question is exactly how they can sell firearms for the price that they do as some of their prices are below wholesale, then add the free shipping.

I had one customer who ordered a firearm from Bud's (before Bud's had my FFL) and it turned out that the firearm was not on the certified list. In less than 24 hours, the order was canceled, but the person was charged $100. Yeah, that is good customer service. There has been other issues with Bud's as well.

Also, others can't do the same thing as Bud's as they have a deal with a distributor, which bypasses the advertising the low prices limitations from manufacturers.

I can see FFLs being annoyed with Bud's, but I don't see the point in charging more money just because it comes from a particular place. If the FFL does not want to deal with a place because of problems, that is a valid reason to not deal with some place. But what difference if the customer buys from Fred's at $500 or Bud's at $300 and has it transferred? If customers are lying about the reason for canceling the layaway and then ordering it from Bud's, personally I would refuse to do the transfer for them at all or charge them additional money for the lies.

As to B&B, I heard that both the owners ended up in jail, for different reasons.

IPSICK
04-28-2011, 1:39 PM
...
LGS or B&Ms should focus on Value Added Sales.
-To move local product they should price competitively and value add with accessories at a good price and most of all Expertise. When someone talks to a salesman they are not looking to be "sold" they are looking to tap the salesman's expertise. That's why you pay the sales staff. Otherwise you can populate your store with trained monkeys that can run the register just as well...

And remember, volume volume volume! IF margins are tight run for volume, if margins are fat still run for volume. The more you sell the more you make. SELL SELL SELL.

A note for those thinking .. hehe eeeeassssy money. Running your own business is a ton of work. Harder than working for someone else, all the stress is yours to own just like the store. You will work long hours for almost no pay until the business gets off the ground. Then you will work even longer hours for a little more pay till the business grows to the point you hire a manager and then you sit back and enjoy the rest of your life. It will RULE YOUR LIFE! Days off? Not for you for a while, expect 7 days a week of work, with you wishing for an 8th day to get more done. Everyone looks at the 50 something wealthy small business owner who never works, lives well, and rakes it in and thinks that is what owning your own business is like. It isn't, you missed the previous 15-20 years he spent getting to this point.

Are you the 50-something old business owner? Sounds like you really know what you're talking about. I do like the idea about value added sales.

kemasa
04-28-2011, 1:43 PM
BTW, one thing that people need to realize is that if they order a firearm from someone other than the FFL, they run the risk of dealing with the expenses if there is a problem.

If there firearm is damaged, the FFL can charge you for the time and effort to ship it back. If it is not what you ordered, same thing and don't expect the place that you buy it from to be willing to pay a dime to the FFL.

You are taking a risk (and perhaps have not thought of it) and while it does not happen often, it can.

Rob454
04-28-2011, 1:46 PM
@ROB454................A lot of the things you mentioned have to be purchased by other businesses as well. People who are opening up a gun store these days should know about the costs of opening up a shop. If they think its too much then may be they shouldn't open a business. ..... "



I assume this is your response cause your quote was sort of garbled up. The only problem is that gun store business is a very customer limited business. its not like a regular retail store ( necessities type of store) gun stores are what i consider a luxury item type of store. It's not something that is "needed" as a day to day necessity like food, clothing, auto care, home repair things like that so your customer base is somewhat limited. I don't think its a matter of being 'too much $ to start a business" as you put it. Anyone who opens a business needs to have a business plan and a target audience. The price in the store is what it is. like anything else you can either buy it or not. Complaining about how the local store can't compete with a out of state dealer really makes no sense. They have their price and that's that. Either buy it, see if they will play lets make a deal or walk and go buy somewhere else. I seriously can't blame these brick FFls for charging for the services.

All I have to say is put yourself in the FFLs shoes. If you go in business you go in business to make money and if you can't understand that then the whole point is lost IMO.


If you want to be truthful its pretty simple IMO. There are people who always look for the cheapest price possible any time all the time who will go to great lengths to save $10 shoppers, and there are people who prefer a face to face i want to see what i am purchasing I want the whole sales experience shoppers. If people want to complain about gun prices, how the stores in California are crappy and they don't do this and do that to their satisfaction then open your own shop. I can guarantee you it will be a eye opening experience. its easy to say yeah i know what a store has to pay when you are reading down a list of things that a store owner has to go through, its another thing when you gotta whip out your check book and actually write those checks to various others.

i for the most part support local stores. I do buy online but not as a rule. As for supporting local stores i support the stores that give good customer service. IMO that's what makes a store. If i wanted a no name email only correspondence buy sight unseen i would buy online all the time.

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 2:00 PM
BTW, one thing that people need to realize is that if they order a firearm from someone other than the FFL, they run the risk of dealing with the expenses if there is a problem.

If there firearm is damaged, the FFL can charge you for the time and effort to ship it back. If it is not what you ordered, same thing and don't expect the place that you buy it from to be willing to pay a dime to the FFL.

You are taking a risk (and perhaps have not thought of it) and while it does not happen often, it can.

You would roll that into your risk-assements for your business plan. You then would create a system of Value Added Sales by which you actually offer to help the customer solve the transaction. The goal is creating a loyal customer and yet not losing out on profit. It can be done but you REALLY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO THINK FFS.

Think:
Customer- Hi I was going to buy a gun from Bud's and would like to ship it here to do the Transfer.
Salesman- Sure our prices are the lowest in the area for transfer fee's. We charge $70 for an out of state transfer, that includes the DROS!
Customer- That is a good deal, everyone else wanted $100 or more. How can you charge so much less?
Salesman- For one, volume. Two because we value you as a customer and are not here to take you for as much as possible. You are an asset to us. Because you are such an asset we do offer an additional paid service that in the case of any problems we can help you solve them. Such as gun-damage or similar issue.
Customer- How much?
Salesman- $15 a firearm. That is complete coverage. We will be with you till it is sorted. However, we wave the $15 charge and offer the insurance free if you purchase the gun here at the shop through Bud's.
Customer- How is that?
Salesman- We have an ordering KIOSK right over here you can place the order and we can verify that it is on the Roster and that it is something that we can legally transfer to you. Also, we are keen on offering our customers the best service and that means price. So we keep a list of some other out of state sales sites where you might get a better price on the gun you want. Bud's, while they have great prices, are not always the best price. Would you like to take a look?
Customer- Sure..
*customer uses KIOSK and when he is ready get the Salesman's attention*
Customer- I found the gun I want.
Salesman- Excellent, did you see the button on the lower left of the screen. That instantly cross references the alternate order sites prices.
Customer- Yes, it was clearly marked and for in-stock only Bud's has it at this price.
Salesman- Ok, lets take a look and make sure this is something we can legally do here in California. Looks good. Ok, go ahead and order it and have it shipped to us, we will let you know when it comes in and we can complete the transaction.
Customer- *orders gun, salesman makes sure all is on order* I need a holster for this gun, do you have any in stock?
Salesman- Yes I do, lets go over here and why don't you tell me the purpose intended for your holster.



I could go on....

Also, no I am not the 50 something. My life is pretty damn bad right now but back during the .com boom days I was a Technology Consultant. Made mess tons of money. Right now my finances are abysmal. Lost almost 50% of my yearly income and things are tough. But that is life, it goes up, it goes down, sometimes it goes sideways. Right now, I am working up a new business plan. These things take time to do RIGHT, they also take money. The old adage is true: It takes money to make money. We will be launching the new business when we are able.

dmacintyre
04-28-2011, 2:05 PM
A lot of responses in this thread explain the reason why the US economy is in the crapper. Lowest price at any expense - don't care where it comes from as long as they are getting the absolute rock bottom price. Probably the same people who lament the loss of US industry while refusing to pay the modest premium for quality domestically produced goods.

When all the local gunstores are out of business and there is nowhere nearby to do a PPT what then?

I reiterate: all the people who went in to Borders and treated the magazine stand like a library, used the free Wi-Fi and browsed for books before buying them from Amazon probably thought the same way until they lost their local store.

Buy it online if necessary but at least give your local store a chance to source it first.

Cyc Wid It
04-28-2011, 2:07 PM
Hmmm I don't think I'm using any FFL (home based or otherwise) that charges more than $50 + DROS for transfers.

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 2:12 PM
A lot of responses in this thread explain the reason why the US economy is in the crapper. Lowest price at any expense - don't care where it comes from as long as they are getting the absolute rock bottom price. Probably the same people who lament the loss of US industry while refusing to pay the modest premium for quality domestically produced goods.

When all the local gunstores are out of business and there is nowhere nearby to do a PPT what then?

I reiterate: all the people who went in to Borders and treated the magazine stand like a library, used the free Wi-Fi and browsed for books before buying them from Amazon probably thought the same way until they lost their local store.

Buy it online if necessary but at least give your local store a chance to source it first.

No, the market changes. You change or you DIE. Period. End of Report. This has taken out mom and pops and has taken down some of the largest corporations in history. You don't "deserve" to survive just because you are local. Consumers are extremely price oriented and have more information at their fingertips than ever (smart phone price scanners for instance). You cannot stop the change, but you can adapt, improvise, and over come. Marine motto works for a successful business as well as it does for the Marines in Combat. Also markets grow and die, if your market dies, so to does your business no matter how good you are. So you pay attention and close doors before you lose the ability to unwind your corporation gracefully. Meanwhile you diversify and grow into new markets so that you are growing one part while unwinding the falling part.

The problem with American corporate culture is the fixation on profit and that a reduction (even if temporary) is viewed as a loss. Instead one should view profit with more flexibility where you are willing to give up some profit for a better position or a strong profit in a specific future time scale. If you are not good enough to generate reasonable predictions, get out of business because you do not belong there. Market Fixation and Market Rape are very destructive to our economy and we have that in spades. The quick view on profit for the shareholders is myopic and destructive at best.

If your customers have smartphones with price scanners, you had better be doing the same thing in anticipation. You now need to be on top of pricing so that you can harness those tools for your own ends. Turtling up and hoping it all goes away won't work.

I hope that whomever was thinking about a gun store or owns one wrote down what I talked about. You just got about $4000 worth of informal consulting (yes it really used to cost that much, my going rate in the late 90s was $200 an hour + expenses+printed materials costs and I was cheap).

STAGE 2
04-28-2011, 2:19 PM
When all the local gunstores are out of business and there is nowhere nearby to do a PPT what then?

The some enterprising individuals will recognize the gap in the market and fill it just as has always happened.

That and the products being purchased are being bought from an american company, so thats not an issue either.

triplestack3
04-28-2011, 2:20 PM
LGS or B&Ms should focus on Value Added Sales.
-To move local product they should price competitively and value add with accessories at a good price and most of all Expertise. When someone talks to a salesman they are not looking to be "sold" they are looking to tap the salesman's expertise. That's why you pay the sales staff. Otherwise you can populate your store with trained monkeys that can run the register just as well.

I agree, but there is a significant portion of the customer base that will solicit said expertise at a given location and then make their purchase online to save $10...

What stinks for CA based B&M's is responsibility for collecting up to 10.25% sales tax on the purchase, so trying to price match v. online makes huge cuts into margins. The problem is that if you're going to be filling out tons of paperwork, so there is no need to have an expert salesman, just a monkey that is trained to fill out paperwork. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 2:28 PM
I agree, but there is a significant portion of the customer base that will solicit said expertise at a given location and then make their purchase online to save $10...

What stinks for CA based B&M's is responsibility for collecting up to 10.25% sales tax on the purchase, so trying to price match v. online makes huge cuts into margins. The problem is that if you're going to be filling out tons of paperwork, so there is no need to have an expert salesman, just a monkey that is trained to fill out paperwork. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

If your salesman is worth anything he will generate return customers. It is an adage that a bird in the hand is worth 10 in the bush. However it is better to have 10 in the bush producing eggs than 1 in the hand. You can eat the eggs for an extended period and as long as you do it right you can grow the number of birds and still eat and then start selling birds and eggs...

That is, high pressure selling does not work on most consumers, those that it will work on are not worth having. If you must send someone somewhere else then do it. They will remember who helped them and who didn't. Sales is about husbandry, not predation. Predation is a short-sighted and harmful system and its what most operate on today and it shows.

This comes from direct experience. Not theory. I have tended customer bases while forced to work Retail sales to make ends meet. TENDED is the right term. I made huge sales with huge margins and I didn't sell every time. Instead I made sure my customer got exactly what they wanted at the best deal for them. I had repeat and return customers, people who would drive out of there way to come to my store to ask me about something they saw somewhere else and if our price was similar would buy from me because I was "trusted seller". It takes more work, more knowledge, and more patience than predatory selling but it actually pays bigger dividends over a longer period. Since the Internet will always beat you on price, you have to work on husbanding your market till they value you more than that $10 savings. That, is B&M core sales are all about.

Super Spy
04-28-2011, 2:28 PM
I will take all transfers from BUD's I make my money no matter what. $75.00 total fee most the time my prices would be the same as if you bought from us directly after the fees.

It's nice to hear the voice of reason and fair business speak up. I remember who put the screws to customers, and I reward those that don't with my hard earned dollars.

Dark Mod
04-28-2011, 2:36 PM
Lets look at 2 different business models for reloading equipment:

Angeles range reloading store: Has 1 employee, who is rude and a little weird, and a rundown location out in the middle of nowhere.

Price for 1000 CCI Large pistol primers: $22.90
500 copper plated .38 bullets: $41.99
1lb of IMR 4895: 21.99
50 pack of Sierra 7.62 150 grn bullets: $21.49

Now lets look at Fowlers: has 15 polite employees standing around doing nothing, a huge location on a major street.

Price for 1000 CCI Large pistol primers: $37.90
500 copper plated .38 bullets: $67.99
1lb of IMR 4895: $28.95
50 pack of Sierra 7.62 150 grn bullets: $32.99

When i went shopping there for guns, their price for berretta was $738, and buds price was $598. I am so sick of paying more at fowlers, to pay for their huge expert staff and nice location. I am willing to drive a little more, hang out in a rundown shop, and deal with the weird long haired hillbilly looking guy at Angeles range to save some money on my reloading supplies. I am also willing to not see what i buy before i buy it to save some money by buying from buds. Folwers knows this, which is why their Ship in Transer fee is like $125. Fowlers business model is just all screwed. I have NO idea who they cater to, since any competent reloader is gonna buy online, except when it comes to powder and primers, even then they would go somewhere else. They really must be just ambushing first time gun buyers who dont really care about price since they probably havent shopped around for their gun anyway.

I would love to see some of these kitchen counter FFl's make a killing by earning my business, and the business of everyone who would have done an FFL at fowlers but ended up not going through them because they charge $125.

It would be nice to see some of them thrice, expand, and begin to offer more services and merchandise as well, since they know what their customer base wants

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 2:44 PM
Fowlers: Too much overhead, too many staff. Bad model all round, result is lower sales, predatory selling, higher prices.

The only thing that would make that model work is a large enough base of premium customers that could support that model. Since you say they stand round all the time, then they obviously have staffing issues for their volume.

a1c
04-28-2011, 2:49 PM
It's great if you're willing to pay extra to support your community. I wish all of us could afford to do that. Unfortunately, most people will make a purchase based primarily on price unless they receive better value for their money. Especially these days.

Fact is, Buds created a smart business model and it's becoming tougher and tougher to compete based on price. Amazon dominates the book marketplace. Does that mean I can't open a local bookstore? Not at all. But I'd better think up a way to offer something more than just the same books that Amazon sells, because chances are, I'm not going to be able to beat their price.

Listen, I'm completely with you here. I'm a guy who has a side business selling honey from his bees, and I sell it for much more than my local competitors because I play the "natural beekeeping" card (which, for me, is not BS, since I don't like to use chemicals or antibiotics on my bees).

Then again, with books you didn't use a very good analogy, since I believe paper is pretty much dying as a medium for books. :D

I do however agree with you on the concept of a "smart" business. You've got to offer value. The local gun shop I patronize the most offers great service, is incredibly friendly, and has a sister self-defense/firearms education business which I think is very smart. They get it. And they always try to match the price I saw somewhere else. They're not one of those crusty gun shop owners who propagates FUD and tells me (like one in Ukiah I won't name) that "AR 15s are illegal in California."

I'm more than happy to support my local shop, and I do. But not just because they're there. They need to earn my business, if they can't, they cant. If they can meet the total cost (transfer, tax, dros, etc.) of ordering from Buds, local shops should be proactive and let customers know. If not, they need to think up a way to add more value to what they can offer.

I'm with you there, and if the price Bud's suggests+the transfer fee and taxes from the local kitchen top FFL are significantly lower than my local mom-and-pop FFL, I'll go with that solution. But usually, that's not the case. I always go to my favorite local FFL and try to get him to match the lowest I can find. If the difference is below 10% total, I go with them. If not, I'll definitely do Bud's (or equivalent) with the kitchen counter FFL.

Hasn't happened yet. The only time I almost went with a nearby kitchen counter FFL was when AIMSurplus had those P1s, but something unfortunate came up and I couldn't make it happen.

Right now my wife really wants a 9mm P239 with night sights (hey, if anyone out there is selling one, PM me!). I'm just going to go to my favorite local FFL and ask him for his best deal. I'm pretty sure he'll match closely what I have in mind.

triplestack3
04-28-2011, 2:51 PM
That is, high pressure selling does not work on most consumers, those that it will work on are not worth having. If you must send someone somewhere else then do it. They will remember who helped them and who didn't. Sales is about husbandry, not predation. Predation is a short-sighted and harmful system and its what most operate on today and it shows.

This comes from direct experience. Not theory. I have tended customer bases while forced to work Retail sales to make ends meet. TENDED is the right term. I made huge sales with huge margins and I didn't sell every time. Instead I made sure my customer got exactly what they wanted at the best deal for them. I had repeat and return customers, people who would drive out of there way to come to my store to ask me about something they saw somewhere else and if our price was similar would buy from me because I was "trusted seller". It takes more work, more knowledge, and more patience than predatory selling but it actually pays bigger dividends over a longer period. Since the Internet will always beat you on price, you have to work on husbanding your market till they value you more than that $10 savings. That, is B&M core sales are all about.
I agree.



And remember, volume volume volume! IF margins are tight run for volume, if margins are fat still run for volume. The more you sell the more you make. SELL SELL SELL.
I also agree.

Herein lies the conundrum. Generally speaking, greater volume dictates that each customer is allotted less time/resources. Ideally, the business would be able to grow in order maintain the same level of customer service (value added sales) along with increasing volume, but this is where we run into diminishing returns and profitability is negatively affected.

Z.1
04-28-2011, 3:00 PM
I hope that whomever was thinking about a gun store or owns one wrote down what I talked about. You just got about $4000 worth of informal consulting (yes it really used to cost that much, my going rate in the late 90s was $200 an hour + expenses+printed materials costs and I was cheap).

No kidding. Not to mention all the free market research here. The preceding posts are basically the transcripts of an impromptu focus group. In fact, probably even more useful because it's voluntary. You couldn't buy info this valuable if you wanted it. Hopefully someone is listening and thinking of ways to apply these lessons.

Recap:

Price is a HUGE consideration for most gun buyers, but not the end-all be-all.

Don't be afraid to evaluate several suppliers. Not just on price: if a supplier can offer you JIT (just in time) delivery, you may be able to save a pretty penny on inventory carrying costs, then pass some savings on to the consumer, for example.

If you can't compete on price, find an under-served niche market and adapt your operations to serve it OR find some other way to provide added value to your consumers.

If something you try doesn't work (and it probably won't right away), keep trying! Remaining stagnant is the kiss of death.

Service is a good start...

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 3:02 PM
I agree.


I also agree.

Herein lies the conundrum. Generally speaking, greater volume dictates that each customer is allotted less time/resources. Ideally, the business would be able to grow in order maintain the same level of customer service (value added sales) along with increasing volume, but this is where we run into diminishing returns and profitability is negatively affected.

Its not an unsolvable puzzle, but it does take some work and there will be risks involved with any new and creative solution.

Usually when looking at the cusp of that issue you start looking at ways to reduce your sales time per sale without reducing sale quality. A single good salesman can handle multiple sales at once. It is quite the juggling act though! Implementation of Self-Service is one key system used to assist the salesman when volume grows but has not yet reached the point where additional sales staff is rational. Technology is your friend here, that is, after all what it was designed for. Which is where I would come in, the company would call me up because they were looking for solutions, time savings, cost savings, overhead savings of some sort for some reason or another. They often would turn to new technologies to support new services or expand volume while not expanding overhead (employees). I would run the numbers for them, offer them quotes on various solution packages, etc. Show long term analysis of costs and growth potential and savings potentials.

tuna quesadilla
04-28-2011, 3:03 PM
Hmmm I don't think I'm using any FFL (home based or otherwise) that charges more than $50 + DROS for transfers.

Yup.

I'm no economics major, but it seems to me that FFLs that raise their fees to counteract Bud's Gun Shop are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Within minutes of Ade's Gun Shop, there's another local gun shop that only charges $25+DROS. And there's a shooting range a few minutes in the other direction that only charges $50+DROS. And they WILL accept from Bud's. Sorry but you'd have to be pretty silly to go to Ade's and get charged $100 for a service when you can get on the freeway for just a few minutes and get exactly the same service for $50.

Z.1
04-28-2011, 3:07 PM
Then again, with books you didn't use a very good analogy, since I believe paper is pretty much dying as a medium for books. :D

Touche :blush5: Haha

Although Amazon might still be a good example of what to do... they noticed an underserved market and created a valuable product to fill that void, i.e. kindle + e-books

meaty-btz
04-28-2011, 3:09 PM
Touche :blush5: Haha

Although Amazon might still be a good example of what to do... they noticed an underserved market and created a valuable product to fill that void, i.e. kindle + e-books

Though I am dubious about Amazon's pricing system for E-books. They are leveraging their name power for their product at a higher pricepoint. However sales don't lie. They are doing great volume on E-books so their pricepoint is consumer acceptable.

triplestack3
04-28-2011, 3:13 PM
Its not an unsolvable puzzle, but it does take some work and there will be risks involved with any new and creative solution.

Usually when looking at the cusp of that issue you start looking at ways to reduce your sales time per sale without reducing sale quality. A single good salesman can handle multiple sales at once. It is quite the juggling act though! Implementation of Self-Service is one key system used to assist the salesman when volume grows but has not yet reached the point where additional sales staff is rational. Technology is your friend here, that is, after all what it was designed for. Which is where I would come in, the company would call me up because they were looking for solutions, time savings, cost savings, overhead savings of some sort for some reason or another. They often would turn to new technologies to support new services or expand volume while not expanding overhead (employees). I would run the numbers for them, offer them quotes on various solution packages, etc. Show long term analysis of costs and growth potential and savings potentials.

Definitely not unsolvable... but then try to get the managers and bean counters on the same boat with you. There are a lot of owners and managers who don't see this. I've been in commissioned sales where management has told me that I made too much money. I'm still scratching my head over that one... my sales paid for his Porsche.

Back on topic... helps to shop and do a lot of background research to find out what works best. Usually if you fail to do proper research before a transaction, you "pay a little extra" whether it be monetary, time, or otherwise. It's up to a private business to do what is in their best interest to survive and compete. If you don't like it, we are lucky to have plenty of choices and we can vote with our money.

Plisk
04-28-2011, 3:13 PM
Yup.

I'm no economics major, but it seems to me that FFLs that raise their fees to counteract Bud's Gun Shop are just shooting themselves in the foot.

Within minutes of Ade's Gun Shop, there's another local gun shop that only charges $25+DROS. And there's a shooting range a few minutes in the other direction that only charges $50+DROS. And they WILL accept from Bud's. Sorry but you'd have to be pretty silly to go to Ade's and get charged $100 for a service when you can get on the freeway for just a few minutes and get exactly the same service for $50.

What shop would you be referring to? If they truly are charging only $25 for a transfer, then by all means go to them.

pc_load_letter
04-28-2011, 3:37 PM
This thread reminds me a lot of the local computer store and consumer electronics. Up until a few years ago, the local computer shops were the best places for computer parts if you didn't want to buy a system from HP, Dell etc. You could find good prices and generally friendly service.

Along comes Newegg (and a host of other sites) and the local computer shop is gone. Just the other day I was in Best Buy to check out cameras before I actually made the purchase from Amazon. Low and behold, they have a HUGE sign at the entry way stating how they now match Internet prices.

Looks like Best Buy is tired of losing out to Amazon as well.

MP

dedub
04-28-2011, 3:44 PM
Not that I haven’t already chimed in on this topic before (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=416892), but to build on Meaty-btz’ comments, here is my scenario on how a B&M shop can beat anybody else:

“Hi, welcome to <insert gun shop name>. Have you shopped with us before? No? Well then, let me spend a minute telling you about what it’s like to buy a gun from us and then we’ll look at guns, OK?

The first think you should know that is regardless of whatever gun you buy, one of our experts is available to spend a few minutes with you to show you how to operate it as well as how to field strip your particular gun and how to best keep it maintained.

Second, with every gun purchase, we give you two vouchers to attend our Saturday morning gun safety class. If this is your first gun purchase, I highly recommend you attend along with your spouse. The vouchers are transferable, so if you’re already an expert, then feel free to give them to anybody you know who could benefit from taking a safety class.

Third, when you buy from us, we offer you a 10% discount on any (not already on sale) accessories you buy from the date of your purchase through the day you pick up your gun. Also, we’ll sign you up for our members loyalty club, which gives you access to member’s only sales and special pricing events we have throughout the year. In addition, we keep track of how much you spend with us, and at the end of the year, we send you a store voucher equal to 10% of the total amount you’ve spent with us (on non-sales items).

How does that sound to you? Great, now, what kind of gun did you have in mind?”

If I ever experienced this, I would leave an imprint of credit card on file to save some time on account of how much I’d be buying from them.

Khram
04-28-2011, 4:20 PM
Buds is bleding us dry, hahahahah! I gaze in to my crystal ball and see a mass exodus of transfer customers going to other shops without this policy against Buds. If tryulu Ades is getting 7-9 guns a day from Buds that loss Of $60 each transfer is going to be a major chunk of cash.

Just like On Target and their thumbprint policy to use their range is seems a poor business descision by a gunshop is causing me to spend elsewhere. Plenty of other options folks within the area.

$60 plus dros transfers are higher than Riflegear,Straightline(even after the price increase),T&A and OC armory and Ammo Bros.

All shops that are close that have good reps for the most part on CGN. AFAIK none discriminate against Buds.

T&A Armory
04-28-2011, 4:36 PM
I accept transfers from Bud's Gun Shop. I am on file with them.

My Fees are
40$ for Pistol
50$ Rifle
30$ Stripped Lowers
15$ for additional firearms

+ 25$ DROS

Do 4 Transfers and the 5th is Free (DROS fee still applies)

kemasa
04-28-2011, 4:56 PM
One thing that people need to consider is the Walmart mentality. Do you really think that things are better with a company like that around? Yeah, there are low prices, until they drive the competition out, just like what happened in my area when the Kmart closed down. Look at the midwest for further examples. Also it seems like quality products are harder to find as cheap is in. Customer service is not much of a consideration as well.

To me, it would be more "honest" to just refuse shipments from Bud's than to charge extra. I have wasted quite a bit of time dealing with Bud's, but still accept firearms from them. If a place is going to charge extra, there really should be a better reason than Bud's prices are too low.

FUBAR
04-28-2011, 5:00 PM
What's wrong with Walmart? I love that store.

ninjawho?
04-28-2011, 5:10 PM
I accept transfers from Bud's Gun Shop. I am on file with them.

My Fees are
40$ for Pistol
50$ Rifle
30$ Stripped Lowers
15$ for additional firearms

+ 25$ DROS

Do 4 Transfers and the 5th is Free (DROS fee still applies)
now theseguys are in business,i would buy from them...seen thier ads.....wish they were in norcal.....bayarea...have alot of stuff i

glock7
04-28-2011, 5:14 PM
part of the problem is...for example my lgs is also the only indoor range in the county. for example a glock 19 3rd gen sells there for $695. a ruger p95 sells there for 595, a sig 226 9mm sells for $1200, a sig 2022 sells for $600 and they don't negotiate....as much as i'd like to buy from them...why should i if i can get it cheaper....

JaeOne3345
04-28-2011, 5:18 PM
My issue with most local shops is they just do not have a lot of stuff I like. "We can get it for you in a few weeks." No thanks.

On the other hand there are just some typical old minded businesses still running around who are just stubborn.

I got an FN SLP Mk1 rom SGCusa.com back in January. I tried to support a local mom n pop guy first. I told him "Look I can get this gun for 915 shipped, and I have a DROS+Transfer deal for 68 from a local FFL." I asked if he could get anywhere near that out the door. He said the best he could do was 1200. An extra 215? You're smoking crack.

kemasa
04-28-2011, 5:19 PM
Do some searches and see how much you really like what Walmart does. Low prices at any cost are not good, except in the short term. You should be aware of their business practices.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/independent_business/walmart_eminent_domain.html

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/walmart/index.html

http://www.dailycampus.com/2.7438/employee-abuse-at-wal-mart-intolerable-1.1059560

A bit of a Union attack:

http://www.labortribune.com/Wal-Mart%20articles%20for%20web!.pdf

FUBAR
04-28-2011, 5:21 PM
I still like Walmart.

railroader
04-28-2011, 5:26 PM
If the local shop is reasonable I will buy there. I bought a RIA tactical not to long ago from Turner's because the price was fair. I then was looking for a cz compact. The only compact Turner's had was in 40 cal for $659. At the same time Bud'd was selling them for $430 shipped. That's a no brainer where to buy it. I wound up buy a compact in 9mm for $465 shipped from bud's with a $70 transfer and no tax. Now if I could have found it locally with in reason I would have bought it locally.

glock7
04-28-2011, 5:36 PM
Here's what bothers me. People says California gun stores have to pay for this and that, well guess what, other types of businesses have to pay for some of that stuff too. Here's what drives me crazy, yesterday I went to a gun store and they wanted $1150 for the EMP. About five miles down the road a much bigger gun store wanted $1350 for the exact same gun. What the heck is that all about??? Also, why is it that alquist arms is able to offer awesome prices (IMO) and gun stores in Madera, Fresno, Clovis, chowchilla and Visalia sell at a much higher price??? I seriously think some gun stores sell at a higher price and hide behind "that's the cost of being a gun owner in california" without it being true all the time. Some times yes it might be true, but not always like some make it seem.

i have that beat...1495 at my lgs....ridiculous...

pc_load_letter
04-28-2011, 5:45 PM
I don't think the walmart comparison of putting mom and pop shops out of business really applies.

We are buying guns, that are made by companies we know and sell the same across the nation. Build quality is going to be consistent no matter the price point.

Now, if Mexico and China were allowed to sell $250 handguns here, then yes, Walmart would sell them and could put some shops out of business if people perceived the 250 gun as "good enough".

MP

glock7
04-28-2011, 5:49 PM
One of the smartest posts I've read on this forum. This got me thinking...

i agree...

glock7
04-28-2011, 5:52 PM
I accept transfers from Bud's Gun Shop. I am on file with them.

My Fees are
40$ for Pistol
50$ Rifle
30$ Stripped Lowers
15$ for additional firearms

+ 25$ DROS

Do 4 Transfers and the 5th is Free (DROS fee still applies)

very reasonable. my lgs charges $150. i could drive to your place and still save $.

pdugan6
04-28-2011, 6:06 PM
This isn't new. of course gun shops are going to add on a fee of 100 dollars or more to accept a gun that they most likely stock or can get. people aren't in business to do favors. they are in business to make a profit. Also they have to charge the tax on the firearm once accepting it from somewhere else if tax hasn't been paid. For accessories like mags,optics and gear i will use online vendors but will always buy from a shop when it comes down to a lower or handgun or rifle.

a1c
04-28-2011, 6:24 PM
Touche :blush5: Haha

Although Amazon might still be a good example of what to do... they noticed an underserved market and created a valuable product to fill that void, i.e. kindle + e-books

True. But the laws don't require you to pick up your books or other items you buy from them from the local bookstore.

When that happens, the analogy will be valid.

Until then, it's not.

gorenut
04-28-2011, 7:16 PM
What's wrong with Walmart? I love that store.

I still like Walmart.

:D

Love the Walmart defense. I too love Walmart for at least still providing us cheap ammo. Honestly.. thats the only reason why I ever step into the store nowadays. Admittedly, while I'm there, I buy a lot of other stuff too.. so it works out.

GILMORE619
04-28-2011, 8:24 PM
:D

Love the Walmart defense. I too love Walmart for at least still providing us cheap ammo. Honestly.. thats the only reason why I ever step into the store nowadays. Admittedly, while I'm there, I buy a lot of other stuff too.. so it works out.
to Walmart
+ 1 When ever I go walmart to check for ammo I always see something I need or think that I need. As consumers we get raped at the gas pumps by the power company the water district our goverment. We work hard for our money so whats wrong for searching for the best deal out there? Ive purchased 10+ guns from buds when I lived in nevada the FFL I transferd through would charge 20$ + 25 dros for up to three guns.

DiscoBayJoe
04-28-2011, 8:52 PM
I'll gladly support the local guy when they are polite and not over priced.

$499 glocks? That's what i'm talking about (Turlock).

If I can't find a resonable price locally, I have no problem with using the Internet + Home FFL. $25 transfers (plus dros) are out there if you keep your eyes peeled. These home FFL's are typically super nice/accomodating as well.

I'm definitly not going to give the Fud/Gouger' (nothing black or $199 stripped lowers) my $$.

jwkincal
04-28-2011, 8:53 PM
BTW, one thing that people need to realize is that if they order a firearm from someone other than the FFL, they run the risk of dealing with the expenses if there is a problem.

If there firearm is damaged, the FFL can charge you for the time and effort to ship it back. If it is not what you ordered, same thing and don't expect the place that you buy it from to be willing to pay a dime to the FFL.

You are taking a risk (and perhaps have not thought of it) and while it does not happen often, it can.

Ken, how can you order from someone who is NOT an FFL? I'm not clear on what you are saying?

Cyc Wid It
04-28-2011, 9:05 PM
Ken, how can you order from someone who is NOT an FFL? I'm not clear on what you are saying?

If you buy from a private seller on say Gunbroker or shipped from another part of CA, tax isn't involved. The transaction still has to go through an FFL of course, but it's different from ordering from a store.

SPaikmos
04-28-2011, 9:05 PM
One thing that people need to consider is the Walmart mentality. Do you really think that things are better with a company like that around? Yeah, there are low prices, until they drive the competition out, just like what happened in my area when the Kmart closed down. Look at the midwest for further examples. Also it seems like quality products are harder to find as cheap is in. Customer service is not much of a consideration as well.

I don't necessarily equate low price with low quality. I think if people don't want a high quality item and are willing to pay less for a lower quality one, then that's their decision to make. As an example, you can buy a cheap folding knife for $5 on a random street corner, or you can buy a Benchmade for $100. Which one will you choose?

Now, if you can get that same Benchmade for $80 online, it's a no brainer to get the cheaper product of the SAME quality.

Hence, I buy my kid's bicycle at WM (he'll use it for 3 years before growing out of it) cause I don't need a well made bike. I'd even pick one up used if I could, cause I know most bikes will last long enough to do this. In this case, a no-name generic is fine for me. I think I'm a pretty good judge of the quality of a product, and can decide whether I can live with it or not.

meaty-btz broke it down pretty well... times are changing and whether you like it or not, BM/LGS is gonna go extinct unless they change their tactics. Driving people OUT of the store by charging higher fees from one particular vendor seems awfully discriminatory and contradictory to what freedom and capitalism are all about. I can also imagine the tons of headaches when this happens:

customer calls LGS: How much is your transfer fee?
LGS: It's $80. (forgets to mention the Bud's tax)
<1 week later>
package from Buds arrives.
customer in LGS: Sweet, let's get this DROS started!
LGS: That'll be $150 + DROS (or whatever the fee is)
customer in LGS: WTF?!?! I called last week and you told me $80.
<customer now flames LGS on every forum known to man>

The truth is, customers are hyper price sensitive, and yeah, they're willing to spend hours of their time online trying to save an extra $10. You need to accept this and embrace it, instead of trying to fight it. If that means hooking people up through Buds, then so be it.

If it were me, and I were getting this much business through Buds, I'd try to consolidate all their packages and ship them all at once, either once a day or once a week to save even more on shipping. Maybe Buds will give me a little kickback for that. Then, I'd also set up a program where if a customer buys multiple handguns, I'll hold the 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) one for them and DROS them every 30 days. I know when I buy from Buds, I've usually got my eye on multiple pieces and if I can make one large order and pick them up on a rolling basis, it'd make me stoked.

The one thing I do find unfair is that purchases made out of state don't necessarily get taxed, and it is hard for a LGS to compete when it's already losing 10% to the state. I guess the only thing I can say about that is they need to set up an online presence and do the same, i.e. sell out of state to other states.

But the bottom line is, the internet is changing the way people shop. People enjoy shopping for stuff from the comfort of their home, and it's driving the malls across america insane. Buy stock in UPS and FedEx. :)

ke6guj
04-28-2011, 9:15 PM
Ken, how can you order from someone who is NOT an FFL? I'm not clear on what you are saying?

I think Ken meant taht if you were ordering from someone who is not THE ffl you are doing you transfer at.

For instance, I walk into my LGS and tell them I want a Shiloh Sharps or something. I don't tell them where to get it. They give me a price, I pay it , and they order it. When it comes in, it has a big scratch on the stock. I tell the FFL to get me another one, I'm not taking that one. It is on the FFL to get me an undamaged rifle since they are the one making the sale.

As opposed to, I call up Shiloh Rifles and place my order with them. I pay Shiloh for the rifle and it shows up one day at the dealer that Shiloh ships it to. If, when I open the box, I find a scratch on the stock, it is between Shiloh and myself, the dealer has no part of the transaction except to do the DROS/4473.

Or, I find a used Shiloh on gunbroker and win the auction and pay for it. When it arrives at the dealer, I'm not satisified in its condition. My beef is with the seller, not the dealer. If I have the dealer send it back, I need to pay the dealer for his time in receiving it, and then shipping it back out.

Mercureality
04-28-2011, 9:25 PM
There are a lot of products which I'll buy from the cheapest possible dealer - take hiking/camping equipment, for example. REI isn't having any problems staying solvent.

Guns? That's something else completely. In case you haven't noticed, there isn't exactly a thriving gun buying populace. Justify clasping your wallet closed all you like, but personally, I like that there are local gun shops, and I chose to buy my USP at a local shop, even though it cost me more.

That said, I still called around and bought it from the cheapest local shop. Just cuz you buy local doesn't mean that you need to pay unreasonable prices. =D

glockwise2000
04-28-2011, 9:50 PM
As much as I wanted, my local FFLs can't find the exact same model that I wanted. 1 FFL found the item but is charging $150+ more out the door and I have to wait 30+ days. If I have compared the shotgun from Bud's + user tax + DROS? Item from Bud's is still cheaper by $157. $157 that would go to feed my 12G shotty.

NotEnoughGuns
04-28-2011, 10:06 PM
I love my LGS, CASH talks. Buds can't compete after all the B.S.

JaeOne3345
04-28-2011, 10:33 PM
As much as I wanted, my local FFLs can't find the exact same model that I wanted. 1 FFL found the item but is charging $150+ more out the door and I have to wait 30+ days. If I have compared the shotgun from Bud's + user tax + DROS? Item from Bud's is still cheaper by $157. $157 that would go to feed my 12G shotty.

That was my situation as well. Pay 215 extra for the same gun and have to wait for you to order it? I think not.

707electrician
04-28-2011, 10:39 PM
The one thing I do find unfair is that purchases made out of state don't necessarily get taxed, and it is hard for a LGS to compete when it's already losing 10% to the state. I guess the only thing I can say about that is they need to set up an online presence and do the same, i.e. sell out of state to other states.

FFL's are now being required to collect the sales tax on firearms purchased from out of state dealers so the tax must be factored in either way

maxima
04-28-2011, 11:01 PM
FFL's are now being required to collect the sales tax on firearms purchased from out of state dealers so the tax must be factored in either way

1. How the FFL know the firearm being transferred is from FFL inventory or from private party who just uses the out of state FFL for shipping purpose?

2. How the FFL know who paid the firearm? If someone(you girlfriend, for example) paid it at out of state FFL and shipped here for you as a gift, you are not suppose pay the sales tax. You girlfriend may already paid the local tax @out of state FFL.

3. The transfer FFL's has no knowledge for how much the firearm is paid at out of state also.

BOE's letter ruling is not enforceable.

User tax is another story, our own business.

8200rpm
04-28-2011, 11:07 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently purchased a Weatherby from Bud's and saved a little over 200.00. My local store which is awesome about transfers spent about 10 minutes total with me filling out the paper work and made 70.00.

This is pure profit with the exception of the 10 minutes spent. Why wouldn't a store want that? What am I not seeing here?

+1

If the LGS is competent, they can have you out within 10 minutes for a Buds transfer.

LGS that's selling from their own inventory incurs costs such as stocking an inventory, displaying inventory, showing inventory to "potential" customers, answering questions and wasting time with looky-loos, dealing with looky-loos fingering your inventory, having your store over run with looky-loos, etc.

When I buy from Buds, I'm in my LGS for less than 10 minutes to start the DROS and less than 5 minutes to pick up. For 15 minutes of customer transaction time and the few minutes it took them to log the firearm in and out of their BATF "bound book", they made $50 without having to deal with stocking tens of thousands of dollars of firearms, d!p***** questions, looky-loos finger-banging their stagnant inventory, hoping to make a sale from a broke deadbeat, and having their store packed with mouth-breathing morons with bad hygiene.

Some LGS are truly incompetent, completely disorganized, and staffed with employees who are prone to making mistakes, easily confused, have trouble focusing, and misfile paperwork. These are the shops to avoid for transfers. You know which shops these are, because it takes them nearly an hour to DROS sh&t from their own inventory!

Cyc Wid It
04-28-2011, 11:08 PM
1. How the FFL know the firearm being transferred is from FFL inventory or from private party who just uses the out of state FFL for shipping purpose?

2. How the FFL know who paid the firearm? If someone(you girlfriend, for example) paid it at out of state FFL and shipped here for you as a gift, you are not suppose pay the sales tax. You girlfriend may already paid the local tax @out of state FFL.

3. The transfer FFL's has no knowledge for how much the firearm is paid at out of state also.

BOE's letter ruling is not enforceable.

User tax is another story, our own business.

1. Generally they ask the seller to disclose whether or not they are an FFL (if it's not some obvious place like Bud's).

2. Don't think it has to do with local tax, and the fact that it's a gift probably doesn't matter.

3. Usually invoices are included.

maxima
04-28-2011, 11:14 PM
1. Generally they ask the seller to disclose whether or not they are an FFL (if it's not some obvious place like Bud's).

The seller has no obligation to tell the transfer dealer.

2. Don't think it has to do with local tax, and the fact that it's a gift probably doesn't matter.

You did not pay the firearm, should you still pay the sales tax?

3. Usually invoices are included.
How about the invoices are mailed to the buyer directly


I can not find the official answers, BOE needs to clear those question. Otherwise, the letter ruling is still not enforceable.

Cyc Wid It
04-28-2011, 11:39 PM
I can not find the official answers, BOE needs to clear those question. Otherwise, the letter ruling is still not enforceable.

Every FFL I have worked with for a private party transfer (3) has asked for the seller to disclose if they are a FFL or not (if nothing is stated then tax is collected)... YMMV. Usually this comes in the form of a short letter from the seller stating that they are not a dealer and this is an private sale. Most FFL's include a copy of the invoice with the gun.

maxima
04-28-2011, 11:51 PM
Every FFL I have worked with for a private party transfer (3) has asked for the seller to disclose if they are a FFL or not (if nothing is stated then tax is collected)... YMMV. Usually this comes in the form of a short letter from the seller stating that they are not a dealer and this is an private sale. Most FFL's include a copy of the invoice with the gun.

If you buy a firearm from gun broker.com, the seller(not FFL) may use his/her FFL to ship it to the transfer FFL here. That is also FFL to FFL transfer in the eye of the local FFL. There is no such requirement ask the out of state FFLs to include the invoice or statement in the shipment, they may or may not. If someone else paid the firearm, the invoice has to be sent to them, not with the shipment.

BTW, I do not want thread hijack.

kemasa
04-29-2011, 11:24 AM
1. How the FFL know the firearm being transferred is from FFL inventory or from private party who just uses the out of state FFL for shipping purpose?

2. How the FFL know who paid the firearm? If someone(you girlfriend, for example) paid it at out of state FFL and shipped here for you as a gift, you are not suppose pay the sales tax. You girlfriend may already paid the local tax @out of state FFL.

3. The transfer FFL's has no knowledge for how much the firearm is paid at out of state also.

BOE's letter ruling is not enforceable.

User tax is another story, our own business.

1) If there is no documentation to show otherwise, sales tax has to be collected.
2) It does not matter who paid, but again, if it is a gift, then you need documentation, otherwise sales tax has to be collected.
3) True, which is a problem and if the person refuses to show a receipt, then the FFL can charge sales tax on MSRP or refuse to do the transfer.

The BOE can cause problems for a FFL business. If they revoke the sales tax permit, then the FFL is basically out of business until it can be cleared up. Argue with the BOE and/or get it changed if you don't like it, don't attack the FFL.

tuna quesadilla
04-29-2011, 12:14 PM
What shop would you be referring to? If they truly are charging only $25 for a transfer, then by all means go to them.

Ooh, I stand corrected. I just double-checked their website (it's Straightline Tactical) and they increased their fee to $45+DROS. Must have happened somewhat recently because I always remember them being "home of the $50 transfer"

Straightline Tactical in Anaheim: $45+DROS
OC Indoor range: $50+DROS (unless they too have jacked their fees up in the recent past...)

gorenut
04-29-2011, 12:17 PM
Ooh, I stand corrected. I just double-checked their website (it's Straightline Tactical) and they increased their fee to $45+DROS. Must have happened somewhat recently because I always remember them being "home of the $50 transfer"

Straightline Tactical in Anaheim: $45+DROS
OC Indoor range: $50+DROS (unless they too have jacked their fees up in the recent past...)

yea, changed a few months ago. It was costing them too much for other sides of the party messing up on paper work. Still, I'd gladly pay $70 for their transfer. Always fast and hassle free. Plus Don goes out of his way to make sure I get out of state stuff ironed out (like them sending rebuilds).

kemasa
04-29-2011, 12:42 PM
to Walmart
Ive purchased 10+ guns from buds when I lived in nevada the FFL I transferd through would charge 20$ + 25 dros for up to three guns.

There is no DROS in Nevada, that is a CA thing. I do not believe there is any charge for the NICS.

Rob454
04-29-2011, 3:45 PM
Fowlers: Too much overhead, too many staff. Bad model all round, result is lower sales, predatory selling, higher prices.

The only thing that would make that model work is a large enough base of premium customers that could support that model. Since you say they stand round all the time, then they obviously have staffing issues for their volume.
This^^^^

Some stores will adapt to the changing market conditions others wont and will go by the wayside. The problem how many threads are there on I was treated like crap at xyz gun store. So even when they treat customers like crap and the customer has a righteous complaint and they can complain to the DOJ the post usually states somewhere i am not gonna be a rat and call the DOJ. So all these crappy gun stores still stay in business because the same people that got treated like crap WILL go back in to buy whatever because its close or convenient or were the only store that had it etc.

IF i were a FFL I would have a little different business model than the way most shops have them. For me PPTs and out of states would be just icing on the cake.

shafferds
04-29-2011, 4:07 PM
Its simple math people: Buds online buys 500 of one model with lgs buys 2 or 5 - who is gonna get a bigger volume discount?

kemasa
04-29-2011, 4:16 PM
I do not believe that Bud's is doing what you think that they are. From what I hear, they have a deal with the distributor. The distributor basically has a retail outlet with Bud's, so they make a deal that others can't get. Bud's does not stock much, they have it shipped from another location, which saves them money.

760knox
04-29-2011, 4:19 PM
called a local gun shop in Orange, they are bumping it from 85 to 100 for the fees, they gun I asked about was coming from Buds.

jw112
04-29-2011, 6:47 PM
i went to STRAIGHTLINE TACTICAL today in anahiem and he said accepts transfers from Buds! No problem. $45+25 dros. It was my first time at the shop and the guy was super friendly and helpful

shooterdude
04-29-2011, 9:03 PM
I was searching for my next gun and found this site:

http://www.grabagun.com/ (http://grabagun.com/)

The gun I bought was less expensive than Bud's and with coupon code "shootcentermass" the shipping was waived. They didn't charge a fee for using my credit card so all around this is a winner!

KExXZ6P_w9k

DISCLAIMER: I am not affiliated with this site. I came across it and wanted to share with my fellow Calgunners.

I am going to DROS at T&A Armory in Santa Ana for $40 + $25(dros)

target
05-05-2011, 11:28 PM
i'm going to try my next transfer with t&a armory. their prices are too good to pass up. buds + t & a = more ammo .

dllma70
05-06-2011, 12:28 AM
Just to put my personal experience to it, I love bud's prices. The difference between buds and my local dealers, including tax, transfer fees, shipping, etc (out the door pricing), was $100-200 on a $630 msrp weapon. However, I visit my local FFLs just to pop-in, say hi and get to know the guys, look at some product. So the local guy, who couldn't compete with Buds because of volume sales, made up the difference in range time, something I would be spending my money on anyways. Just talk to your local FFLs, they want your business and are often willing to negotiate prices, bonuses outside of the price of the weapon. Some might even offer X amount of reloads/new ammo. Just get to know them, they're usually great guys and once you get on their good side, they're willing to bend a little, knowing you'll come back the next time for ammo, supplies, range time.

HPGunner
05-06-2011, 6:21 AM
I recently did my first Buds transfer and it worked out great. They ship for free or you can pay the flat $12 to have it insured. They don't charge you sales tax and their cash discount price can be had by paying with a personal check (If your not in a big rush, they won't ship until your check clears which is usually under 5 business days). They have guns that I just don't see at my local FFL at great prices. For me it was a new Dan Wesson PM7. They also have a great 90 day layaway plan, so if you want to put something on hold because you just did a new gun DROS, you could. Also you have a chance to inspect the gun prior to accepting it. If it's not to your liking you dont have to accept it and buds would have it shipped back for full refund (not exactly sure how this part works). Just find a good FFL that has a reasonable transfer fee and doesnt charge sales tax (there a few threads on this topic already). FFL makes a little extra cash for the fee and they get foot traffic in the door. I typically buy other things and supplies while I'm there to do the transfer.

PanchoVilla
05-06-2011, 10:51 AM
I use Bud's for my target price. Then I go haggle with the local shop. If I can get the same gun somewhere reasonably close to the local shop then I buy there. They guys at my nearest shop are actually really great at service. PPT's at any hour they are open with no grief or making you wait. I recently bought a 590A1 from them even though their price wasn't the best. I was already there doing a PPT, so way less hassle than ordering, and making extra trips. Plus I get to help keep the best local shop in business, and pay in cash which means the wife might not notice the new toy......

So if you are in Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, mountain view area give US firearms a try. Waaaaaay more friendly than Reed's or Bay Area Gun Vault in my experiences. They don't have the same inventory levels, but they can order stuff.

kemasa
05-06-2011, 11:31 AM
Just find a good FFL that has a reasonable transfer fee and doesnt charge sales tax (there a few threads on this topic already).

CA FFLs are required to collect sales tax when the firearm comes from an out of state business who is not registered in CA. This means that your "good" FFL is violating the law.

See: CA Sales Tax Firearms Information 495.0843 & 495.0848

It is an insult to law abiding dealers who do what they are supposed to do when you act like they are ripping you off and claim that a good FFL does not collect sales tax.

markw
05-06-2011, 12:19 PM
I picked up an XD40 from a local shop, their cash price was only 15 bucks higher than buds for the same gun, plus they only charge $25 for the dros paperwork plus sales tax. In the end I maybe spent around 30 bucks more than had I done it through buds. I don't mind paying a few bucks extra and supporting the local guy. It's when the local guy is an a___ and is priced 50-100 more for the same item that I'll walk. Local shops can compete, they just can't act like they're the only show in town.

kemasa
05-06-2011, 12:55 PM
How do you compete with Bud's when some, not all, of the firearms are priced less on Bud's than what the manufacturer sells it directly to the dealer for and less than all other distributors?

DiscoBayJoe
05-06-2011, 1:08 PM
How do you compete with Bud's when some, not all, of the firearms are priced less on Bud's than what the manufacturer sells it directly to the dealer for and less than all other distributors?

Sell at a loss.... make it up in Volume!

You laugh, but that's what we do in Technology. Sell enough and you get back end incentives that make it worth while. If you don't hit your targets you take a big loss. It's a screwed up world out there!

kemasa
05-06-2011, 3:47 PM
There are no incentives in this case, other than to get out of the business. Bud's won't give is discount to FFLs either, I asked. The joke is that some of their prices are good, others are not, so it really depends on a specific firearm as to whether the FFL can beat their price or not, but the question comes as to whether it is worth it for the FFL to do so. The customer is taking the risk when they have a firearm shipped in, the FFL can charge for all the time it takes if it needs to be returned.

707electrician
05-06-2011, 4:05 PM
I was searching for my next gun and found this site:

http://www.grabagun.com/ (http://grabagun.com/)

The gun I bought was less expensive than Bud's and with coupon code "shootcentermass" the shipping was waived. They didn't charge a fee for using my credit card so all around this is a winner!

KExXZ6P_w9k

DISCLAIMER: I am not affiliated with this site. I came across it and wanted to share with my fellow Calgunners.

I am going to DROS at T&A Armory in Santa Ana for $40 + $25(dros)

Let us know how they work out for you