PDA

View Full Version : ARís in 9mm


Michael303
11-22-2006, 9:58 AM
I was thinking about building up yet another fixed AR lower, and saw that Rock River has 9mm conversions available.

Is there a benefit to having an AR in 9mm? It does look kind of neat, but Iím not sure whether itís worth it in the end. Any thoughts on this?

NeoWeird
11-22-2006, 10:17 AM
I was thinking about building up yet another fixed AR lower, and saw that Rock River has 9mm conversions available.

Is there a benefit to having an AR in 9mm? It does look kind of neat, but I’m not sure whether it’s worth it in the end. Any thoughts on this?

Pistol caliber carbines have been around for a LONG time (I know of pistol caliber rifles as old as WWII) and they all have their purpose. With the AR, it probably started more as a novelty, a way to get a good suppressed AR, or possibly as a way to plink cheaply but it really has filled in a nice place amoung people's collections. One of the biggest benefits for owning one is that indoor ranges that allow ONLY pistol ammo will allow you to use your AR there. You also get better ballistics from the round (well in most cases) than through a handgun.

Generally speaking (ourside of suppressor use), pistol caliber carbines are used where over penetration needs to be avoided but the accuracy and capacity of a rifle is wanted. You'll see military/police forces that need to operate in urban populated areas using them and this generally is the role that they fill. They would make a great home defense rifle (although there are probably better choices, in terms of a rifle they are a good choice) and they would probably fair very well as a large city SHTF weapon or even a trunk gun.

If you really want one, go for it. If you want a toy, go for it. If you are just now finding out about them and not sure, try someone elses. I will admit though, I never understood the obsession with pistol caliber carbines until I shot a (registered) HK94 at a range and I instantly knew what the rage was and I knew I had to have one. I would probably suggest getting a real AR and getting a good grasp of it before anyone moves on to pistol caliber ARs as it IS a modification and while it is not permanent, they frequently need tweaking and a good udnerstand of how the AR functions.

luvtolean
11-22-2006, 10:35 AM
Generally speaking (ourside of suppressor use), pistol caliber carbines are used where over penetration needs to be avoided but the accuracy and capacity of a rifle is wanted. You'll see military/police forces that need to operate in urban populated areas using them and this generally is the role that they fill.

That is the "old" paradigm, and by it, you are correct.

But further testing has shown this assumption to be poor; a 9mm through a Glock (or AR)will penetrate more wallboard than a .223.

I own my 9mm AR as an extremely enjoyable, easy shooting firearm. Is there any other reason necessary?

It has less recoil than the .223 version, and as mentioned by Neo, has the ability to be used on more ranges.

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 11:16 AM
I personally am very interested in getting ahold of an Olympic 9mm upper (they don't offer them for sale on their website, but I dropped a request for pricing in). The reason for this, is that Kurt's Custom Firearms has a magblock available for Olympic uppers that'll accept unmodified 32rd Sten mags. I happen to have a few, and I don't want to go cutting notches or something on them.

Side note, I've been told the RRA uppers will accept Sig 226 mags.

Sydwaiz
11-22-2006, 11:40 AM
Personally, I would stay away from Oly uppers. I had one and didn't like the design. While it does work, the spring ejector places upward pressure on the bolt carrier and causes excessive wear on the upper receiver where the BC rides. It's also mag dependant. I was using unmodified Sten mags and a Socom block. It does bumpfire like crazy though!!! And about that bumpfiring. It will fire slightly out of battery. Maybe if it had an enhanced BC, it wouldn't but mine did. Nothing major happened. Ruptured brass and hot powder out the ejection port onto my arm. It buffed out!

Michael303
11-22-2006, 11:59 AM
Thanks for the heads up. I had seen a few pictures of 9mm variants on the Rock River site. Although I'm usually at outdoor ranges, it would be nice to have that option. And, of course, they do look pretty slick...

I figure I'll look around, see whatís out there, and eventually take the plunge and buy the upper.

etruscan
11-22-2006, 12:01 PM
i love my 9mm AR. first, its just a ball to shoot. not much accuracy past 50yrds, but its my favorite for plinking. second, the ammo is cheap and available. third, i think it just looks cool...tacticoolish. im not going to be storming a crack house with it, just assaulting some threatening soda cans. i dont think you need us to justify the build. if you want one, then do it!

luvtolean
11-22-2006, 12:07 PM
Side note, I've been told the RRA uppers will accept Sig 226 mags.

I have a full RRA built AR.

It will actually feed rounds from the Sig 226 mag, but the mag catch has nothing to grab and hold it in the magwell.

Definitely a "field expedient" option only.

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 12:14 PM
I have a full RRA built AR.

It will actually feed rounds from the Sig 226 mag, but the mag catch has nothing to grab and hold it in the magwell.

Definitely a "field expedient" option only.

Very nice to know. I guess you'd have to get into some really crazy mods in order to make it work "natively", then.

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 12:17 PM
Side note, Olympic wrote back to me. Looks like the price on an Oly 9mm upper is $615. However, they'd have to leave the modded Sten mag behind, unless you were to get them to strip it down as a replacement part for a pre-owned Sten mag. I've got some Sten mags, but I don't wanna do any perm. mods to them as I'm pretty sure they're WW2 bring-backs from my grandfather. Unless, of course, he acquired 'em later on... not sure when he obtained 'em and he's not around to ask anymore. :(

The standard K9 Upper Receiver (part number is, oddly enough, K9-UR) sells for $594, plus $21 shipping, for an out-the-door cost of $615. It will come with one of our modified Sten magazines, but it ought to work fine with Kurt's mag-well block, although I must admit that I personally have never played with one. (The Hahn block is available through Brownell's-- I believe it requires a screw to be inserted into the upper spine of the mags.) Pre-ban (or No-ban) is now the common standard, unless your State has laws which forbid it-- in that case we can build you one in Post-ban configuration with no problem. Flat-top uppers are available at the same price as the A2 models.

luvtolean
11-22-2006, 12:25 PM
HMMMMMM...you know, this got me thinking.

I believe you could machine a slot into the 226 mags making them catch in the RRA maglock, AND still function properly.

krim
11-22-2006, 12:33 PM
you may want to wait til C Products releases the 10 rd colt patterned mags before you start your new build. It'll suck to have everything except for some mags ... it's what im waiting for... of course, if you had some pre-ban Uzi mags, that's a different story.

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 12:39 PM
of course, if you had some pre-ban Uzi mags, that's a different story.

Pre-ban Sten mags are the main reason I'm still leaning in the Olympic direction, although grumbling that it's, well, Olympic.

Sydwaiz
11-22-2006, 12:55 PM
Holy Crap! I just sold my Oly upper with mag black for $350 on arfcom! It was a bull barrel flat top and I included a crappy clamp on front sight too. Oh well, sorry guys. I did keep my mags though! You just never know when they might be needed again.....

I forgot, I have some steel mag blocks that I copied from the Socom block. They need a mag release lever to be finished. And they are in the white. They are heavy though even with as much machining as I did on them. You could probably machine some more weight out of it if you want. The lever is simply a piece of quarter inch key stock with a hole drilled in it for the roll pin. You would need to figure out how long to cut it to hold your mag in tight but its not that difficult. I'll list them for $25 each in the for sale forum if anyone is interested.

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 1:05 PM
Holy Crap! I just sold my Oly upper with mag black for $350 on arfcom! It was a bull barrel flat top and I included a crappy clamp on front sight too. Oh well, sorry guys. I did keep my mags though! You just never know when they might be needed again.....

I forgot, I have some steel mag blocks that I copied from the Socom block. They need a mag release lever to be finished. And they are in the white. They are heavy though even with as much machining as I did on them. You could probably machine some more weight out of it if you want. The lever is simply a piece of quarter inch key stock with a hole drilled in it for the roll pin. You would need to figure out how long to cut it to hold your mag in tight but its not that difficult. I'll list them for $25 each in the for sale forum if anyone is interested.

Hmm. So, if you're into finishing and machining things, any chance that you could work on a no-mods Sten magblock for an RRA 9mm upper? I would be thrilled to buy that!

krim
11-22-2006, 1:06 PM
Pre-ban Sten mags are the main reason I'm still leaning in the Olympic direction, although grumbling that it's, well, Olympic.

i wouldve went w/ the Oly upper too, but i dont have any sten mags... but it would've saved me the trouble of getting a large pin 9mm hammer for my Horsey lower.


HMMMMMM...you know, this got me thinking.

I believe you could machine a slot into the 226 mags making them catch in the RRA maglock, AND still function properly.

Does that mean i could test my upper w/ my 228 mags? I got a pill of preban mags for my 228, the (5) 20 rd'rs would be very good for this.

Kiowa782
11-22-2006, 1:07 PM
Hello everyone,

I was the guy talking to grammaton the other day about the Sig P226 mag. It works perfectly. No jams or misfeads. Is it fun to load, no a little rough on the fingers but it beats paying $50.00 for an UZI mag from RRA that may never come out. I have had an RRA set up for a while now and got sick of waiting for the UZI Mag. so with some playing around I noticed my SIG P226 mag fit and fed perfectly. So I ordered a factory SIG P226 10round mag off e-bay and drilled & filed a slot for the mag catch and fixd the mag and works great.

luvtolean
11-22-2006, 1:08 PM
Grammaton, unless I don't understand it, it's not the magblock design that necessitates the mods.

It's the distance from the bolt to the mag lock.

RRA could've chosen to either increase the size of the slot for the maglock, or drop the rear lip of the mag down a bit so the bolt could strip the round.

It is a VERY minor mod, and in your shoes, I wouldn't hesitate to do it.

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 1:12 PM
Ok, can someone list a bunch of types of full capacity 9mm mags? I'm thinking mostly SMG and 20+ handgun mags.

I'd like to run a muliple choice poll, as it seems we have some folks with machining abilities around here, and do a little market research to make it more tempting for some machinist to make a zero-mods magblock for that particular mag family.

Zero mods, for me, is non-negotiable. I would much rather just spend the extra money for a perfect mag block, than go cutting up a magazine that can't be replaced.

I personally have Sten mags, and would be very happy to get an RRA-compatible no-mod magblock to use them with.

I can think, so far, of:

Uzi 9mm
Sten 9mm
CZ-75 20rd mags (they exist, but probably impractical for this - and 10rd mags are readuly available)

grammaton76
11-22-2006, 1:15 PM
Grammaton, unless I don't understand it, it's not the magblock design that necessitates the mods.

It's the distance from the bolt to the mag lock.

If you look at the zero-mods-required version from Kurt's Custom Firearms, it actually uses a paddle style mag release. While it would be nice to use the AR's mag release button, if it means any kind of mod to those mags, I would rather not do it.

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/catalog/item/29585/386988.htm

RRA could've chosen to either increase the size of the slot for the maglock, or drop the rear lip of the mag down a bit so the bolt could strip the round.

It is a VERY minor mod, and in your shoes, I wouldn't hesitate to do it.

Well, I can see that it's minor, but the main thing is that I don't wanna mod the mags for sentimental reasons (grandfather's mags and all that). I'm cool with USING them, but I don't want to go removing material.

Besides, RRA takes Uzi or Colt mags; if you have Sten, so far you're stuck with Olympic as far as I can tell.

Kiowa782
11-22-2006, 1:32 PM
There is a very long thread about using Sten mags in a RRA set up over on AR15.com under the pistion and rimfire section, but it requires modifing the Mag block. One of the guys offers to send you the instructions in there somewhere. I think this might be a setup you were looking for to keep your Sten mags intact.



http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=136191

Sydwaiz
11-22-2006, 1:34 PM
I'm sure I could machine something if I had an upper to work with. hint hint! The problem with the Sten mags is since they are the same width as the AR magwell, it would take a two piece mag block. One in front and one in back. Somebody was making an UZI two piece block that uses set screws to hold it into the mag well for Colt type uppers. Bad design IMO because it puts outward pressure on your mag well from the set screws. Not sure if it's even made anymore.

CWM4A1
11-22-2006, 2:12 PM
I used to work at a range where they had a AR with Oly 9mm upper for rent. Experience told me Oly 9mm design really sucks. The problem is with the ejector. The ejector is basically a spring that is installed on a pin across the lower part of upper receiver (below the bolt). When bolt opens, the spring ejector raise and act as ejector to knock the casing out; then when bolt closes the bolt will force the ejector down again. Depends on how often you shoot, eventually this spring will break and during that rifle's service, ejector broke way too often (at least once a month, and that gun didn't get use all that much). For grammaton76, since your reason is to use those Sten mags, I guess there isn't much of other choice; for those of you who have colt or UZI mags, it would be much better off going with RRA 9mm upper, then that piece of crap Oly 9mm upper.

tenpercentfirearms
11-22-2006, 11:17 PM
I think I will take out my RRA 9mm rifle tomorrow and shoot it. The main problem with any of these builds right now is the lack of 10 round magazines. I had to order some high caps with my high cap permit and permanently modify them just so we could shoot our rifles. C Products is suppose dto have 10 round 9mm mags out starting December 12. I will most certainly be selling them and I can't wait!

Now I just need to see if I have another multi marked lower so I can put a muzzle brake on my 9mm upper and then I can switch back and forth between fixed and detchable. I can't get high cap 9mm magazines but the gun shop certainly can!!! :D

NRAhighpowershooter
11-23-2006, 9:32 AM
ok,, this begs to be asked... which would be the better mag to use on a 9mm AR? Uzi or Sten mags?

tenpercentfirearms
11-23-2006, 1:40 PM
I just got back from my range session and oh do I love my RRA 9mm carbine. I had zero failures with it today and I had to have shot at least 100 rounds. I am using the RRA 25 round UZI mags that I welded to only accept 10 rounds. Man is this a nice set up. Low recoil, not very loud, this is the way to shoot an AR15.

mremmate
11-23-2006, 1:48 PM
Here is a cool article about .223 to 9mm conversion

http://ninthstage.com/index.php/2006/03/02/build-your-own-9mm-ar-15-lower/

6172crew
11-23-2006, 2:12 PM
I have everything needed for my build cept the OLY upper, the socom block and sten mags are plenty around here.

Damn, $350...:(

Michael303
11-23-2006, 2:52 PM
Sweet, thanks again for all the help. I think I may build this one up in the near future. Good news with it is that my girlfriend would probably like using it. Low recoil, lightweight build. Sounds like something she would get a kick out of (of course, so would I).

Lambchop
11-23-2006, 8:03 PM
grammaton76 I would be very interested in a 9mm ar using beretta mags. I have some legally purchased 15rnd mags that would be perfect for this.

DANGERCLOSE
11-29-2006, 8:31 PM
all right guys, i am confused as i have been thinking about building a 9mm ar. at work we use the colt smg in 9mm and we have 30rd mags. what is really the difference between this, oly, and rra mags. is there three different types of kits. how can i make a 10 rounder that will have fit and function as my work toy. what kind of mag is used by the colt. i have looked at the cmmg uppers that they have on their site for a 9mm. that upper and bolt assembly appears to be the same as the colt? can someone please break this down to me, keep it simple please, im a grunt.

jrhglock99
11-29-2006, 9:33 PM
How about these Glock ones from Olympic Arms? http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view=cat&ids=gl

Sydwaiz
11-29-2006, 10:00 PM
DANGERCLOSE: I believe all but the Oly are copies of the Colt design. Colt design uses Colt or modified UZI mags. Oly uses Sten submachine gun mags. Colt mags are left and right feed while Sten mags feed from the center. Read some of our earlier posts about the Oly design and decide for yourself which is right for you. They both work, one better than the other.

krim
11-30-2006, 4:00 AM
there's a rather long thread on ar15.com's pistol caliber AR section.. it's got some good info on the differences.

tenpercentfirearms
11-30-2006, 5:48 AM
C Products should have our 10 round Colt/RRA pattern 9mm magazines in less than two weeks. I will most certainly let you guys know when that happens.

I shot the heck out of my RRA 9mm on Thanksgiving without a single issue.

Red Flag
11-30-2006, 8:22 AM
I have a RRA upper on a Stag lower using a 10% 10 round mag. So far I have had zero issues with this rilfe.

Here are some pics and movies of my daughters shooting the 9mm.

http://www.armyscout.us/gallery/9mmar

Chris

krim
11-30-2006, 4:29 PM
C Products should have our 10 round Colt/RRA pattern 9mm magazines in less than two weeks. I will most certainly let you guys know when that happens.

I shot the heck out of my RRA 9mm on Thanksgiving without a single issue.

2 weeks means ill have them in time for xmas morning. :D
(you do mean in stock in 2 weeks right? *cross fingers*)

also, this may be silly, i know you'll hate every minute.. going to the range, the noise, the smoke.. oh the horror. ;)

but can I get you to t&e the mags and report back to us?

tay
11-30-2006, 9:03 PM
How's the recoil, since it doesn't work on gas?

tenpercentfirearms
11-30-2006, 9:14 PM
The recoil is minimal. Very nice.

Joe
11-30-2006, 10:00 PM
The recoil is minimal. Very nice.

I think you should offer a complete 9mm AR kit.

DANGERCLOSE
11-30-2006, 10:12 PM
thanks for the info guys. i will check out ar15.com for some more info.

tenpercentfirearms
12-01-2006, 5:34 AM
I think you should offer a complete 9mm AR kit.
Kits are over rated. Just buy the parts necessary. If you are not sure what is necessary, you call up TPF or send them an e-mail and say, "What all do I need?"

1) upper
2) LPK
3) buttstock
4) CA compliance parts

For the 9mm, you will have to add

5) 9mm buffer
6) 9mm hammer
7) mag block
8) stock spacer (if using a A2 sized buttstock, otherwise not necessary)

If you ask me, kits are overrated. Just buy the exact parts you want and have options instead of being stuck in a "kit". Kits are for the simple minded and if you understand how this OLL thing works, then you are not simple minded and can handle picking out the 4 items necessary for a standard kit and the extra three to four parts for a 9mm kit.

The only real reason to maybe buy a kit is cost savings becuase they usually bundle the price together, but my items are competitively priced already so I can't get my price much lower.

Just my opinion.

Joe
12-01-2006, 10:36 AM
Kits are over rated. Just buy the parts necessary. If you are not sure what is necessary, you call up TPF or send them an e-mail and say, "What all do I need?"

1) upper
2) LPK
3) buttstock
4) CA compliance parts

For the 9mm, you will have to add

5) 9mm buffer
6) 9mm hammer
7) mag block
8) stock spacer (if using a A2 sized buttstock, otherwise not necessary)

If you ask me, kits are overrated. Just buy the exact parts you want and have options instead of being stuck in a "kit". Kits are for the simple minded and if you understand how this OLL thing works, then you are not simple minded and can handle picking out the 4 items necessary for a standard kit and the extra three to four parts for a 9mm kit.

The only real reason to maybe buy a kit is cost savings becuase they usually bundle the price together, but my items are competitively priced already so I can't get my price much lower.

Just my opinion.

I wasn't sure what was needed to build a 9mm AR. Thanks for the info.

Sydwaiz
12-01-2006, 2:29 PM
For an Oly upper. Rifle hammer and buffer are fine.

bonjing
12-01-2006, 3:24 PM
hmmm rock river is closed today due to bad wheather, so i'll ask my questions here:

with the RR complete upper i am planning on adding the surefire rails and the weaver type gas block, will this work? the surefire rails work with the hand guard caps correct? does adding the weaver type gas block remove/work with a hand guard cap?

second question which is prefered, the hahn (sp?) 9mm block or the rock river block?

tenpercentfirearms
12-01-2006, 11:35 PM
hmmm rock river is closed today due to bad wheather, so i'll ask my questions here:

with the RR complete upper i am planning on adding the surefire rails and the weaver type gas block, will this work? the surefire rails work with the hand guard caps correct? does adding the weaver type gas block remove/work with a hand guard cap?

second question which is prefered, the hahn (sp?) 9mm block or the rock river block?
The nice thing about the 9mm upper is that it has no gas system. So if you want to remove the front sight tower, no problem. If you want to install a rail, no problem.

I have only used the RRA block and that has been in a fixed configuration and I have no knowledge on the other one.

Q
12-02-2006, 12:53 PM
update me when the rra 10rd are for sale. thanks

tenpercentfirearms
12-02-2006, 2:02 PM
update me when the rra 10rd are for sale. thanks
Send an e-mail to guns@tenpercentfirearms.com and I will flag it for you and notify you when any kind of 10 rounder becomes available.

thedonger
12-12-2006, 4:06 PM
If you do a 9mm build what happens with the fixed/removable mag issue?

Joe
12-12-2006, 4:24 PM
If you do a 9mm build what happens with the fixed/removable mag issue?

It is exactly the same as an AR in .223. There is no difference.

AJAX22
12-12-2006, 7:13 PM
I'm putting togeather an Oly, I found the parts cheap, all I'm missing is the barrel.

I can't use my 556 or my 7.62x39 rifles for home defense, I'm the manager of an appartment building and it would be bad to have overpenetration issues with the tennants.

The big seller for me was the ability to use sten mags, I have several dozen of the things that I'd all but given up hope on ever using.

inda_bebe
09-06-2007, 10:18 PM
Kits are over rated. Just buy the parts necessary. If you are not sure what is necessary, you call up TPF or send them an e-mail and say, "What all do I need?"

1) upper
2) LPK
3) buttstock
4) CA compliance parts

For the 9mm, you will have to add

5) 9mm buffer
6) 9mm hammer
7) mag block
8) stock spacer (if using a A2 sized buttstock, otherwise not necessary)




Is this all you need? im guessing you need a barrel and bolt charger,right?