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Warhawk014
04-24-2011, 11:57 PM
ok ladies and gents, heres a scenario for everyone to discuss. serious comments only please, do not pollute this thread with smart *** comments. i want to know what you would do in this situation. the situation is exactly as i discribe it. no other unknown variables exists. ok...

you live by yourself in a 1 story house outside city limits, the closest neighbors are approximately 200 yards away. while sleeping in your room with your corgi at the foot of your bed, you awaken to a loud thunderous crash coming from the living room. your dog begins to bark at the bedroom door leading into the hallway. you quickly retrieve your 1911 45 acp from the nightstand. you load it with a single 8 round mag and head into the hallway to investigate the noise. as you turn into the living room you are confronted by a burglar wielding a 32 inch machete. you immediately take aim at the suspect and order him to drop the weapon on the ground and put his hands in the air. the suspect does not comply with your order and begins to charge at you from a distance of 15 yards away. you fire 4 shots center mass all with positive impacts but the burglar only flinches, stops for a split second and continues his charge towards you. he is now only 10 yards away from you and you fire 2 more shots aiming for his head. because he is moving you miss both shots, you know you only have 2 rounds left in the gun. it is now apparent that the suspect is wearing some sort of body armor and cannot be taken down with COM shots and head shots are very difficult because he is a moving target. you have only seconds to decide your next course of action, if you fail to act and the suspect closes the remaining distance HE WILL KILL YOU. you must somehow SLOW him down long enough to retreat to your bedroom so that you can reload.

what do you do...... lets discuss this in a serious manner. please explain your reason for taking a certain course of action. i know what i would do, what would you do.:)

InGrAM
04-25-2011, 12:02 AM
lol I like that you added in a cute little corgi. To bad hes not going to be much after getting hit with a machete :/.

jermzzzzzzz
04-25-2011, 12:07 AM
Corgi's rock! I'd still go for the headshot. And I'd carry something that can carry more than 8 rounds.

UserM4
04-25-2011, 12:10 AM
The head is the most stable part of a human body that is running. I wouldn't miss with the last two rounds since the target is even larger as it approaches.

But lucky for me, I have 18+1 rounds of 9mm in my HD handgun, 8 rounds of slugs in my HD shotgun, and 30+1 rounds in my HD rifle, which would also punch holes through soft body armor as if it wasn't there. :p

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 12:16 AM
The head is the most stable part of a human body that is running. I wouldn't miss with the last two rounds since the target is even larger as it approaches.

But lucky for me, I have 18+1 rounds of 9mm in my HD handgun, 8 rounds of slugs in my HD shotgun, and 30+1 rounds in my HD rifle, which would also punch holes through soft body armor as if it wasn't there. :p

so you would risk it with the last 2 shots and not try to retreat.

UserM4
04-25-2011, 12:22 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't have had time to think about it. Just shoot.

zfields
04-25-2011, 12:22 AM
Sure am glad I have 10 rounds of .45 acp in my XD, or 19 rounds of 9mm in my CZ : )

Either way, Id either go for the head, or the knees while i retreated to my bigger guns.

UserM4
04-25-2011, 12:27 AM
Just another reason I don't consider 1911's seriously for HD usage. My USP45 holds 12+1 and even that isn't remarkable. But I'd rather have 19rds of 9mm than 13rds of 45ACP any day let alone a 1911 with 8rds. :ack2:

DannyZRC
04-25-2011, 12:33 AM
Doctrinal failures...

You didn't call the police when awoken by a loud crash
You are ALONE, but decided to grab a handgun and poke around
You didn't provide yourself with a lightsource (big one)


Things that break my suspension of disbelief...

you live alone but in a fairly big house (15 yds across your living room)
it's dark but you can see that your shots are good and then assume it's a vest that is causing them to not stop instead of just emptying the magazine into them?
An intruder has a vest... but no firearm?


To play along:
If we first acknowledge that you started things off wrong, and then we accept for the purposes of argument that a vested intruder has broken into your house wielding a machete, and we further accept that you stopped firing into the threat before it was neutralized, well...

you could attempt to knock the attacker off their feet, you could go for a contact headshot, you could turn and run for your bedroom improvising obstacles along the way (closet doors and the like).

None of these are good options, you made mistakes early in the scenario that are hard to overcome now at the end.

Laser Sailor
04-25-2011, 12:36 AM
As described, I probably take my last two shots, miss with both and get chopped up by the machete wielding burgler... Just being honest...

The smart answer is to retreat to your bedroom and access more firepower. Even smarter is to retreat the moment you see the threat, lock your bedroom and call 911.

Now in badass mallninja mode I'd rush him to close distance try to block his first blow with my offhand arm and put the gun into contact with his head before pulling the trigger on the last two. :cool:

j1133s
04-25-2011, 12:42 AM
... your dog begins to bark at the bedroom door leading into the hallway. you quickly retrieve your 1911 45 acp from the nightstand. you load it with a single 8 round mag and head into the hallway to investigate the noise. as you turn into the living room you are confronted by a burglar wielding a 32 inch machete. you immediately take aim at the suspect and order him to drop the weapon on the ground and put his hands in the air. ...

1. If I keep a pistol for HD, it'll already be loaded and ready to go.
2. I don't issue orders, I will just shoot.
3. I will not investigate w/ pistol, calling 911 seems easier if I feel the need for a pistol and investigaet

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 12:52 AM
Doctrinal failures...

You didn't call the police when awoken by a loud crash
You are ALONE, but decided to grab a handgun and poke around
You didn't provide yourself with a lightsource (big one)


Things that break my suspension of disbelief...

you live alone but in a fairly big house (15 yds across your living room)
it's dark but you can see that your shots are good and then assume it's a vest that is causing them to not stop instead of just emptying the magazine into them?
An intruder has a vest... but no firearm?


To play along:
If we first acknowledge that you started things off wrong, and then we accept for the purposes of argument that a vested intruder has broken into your house wielding a machete, and we further accept that you stopped firing into the threat before it was neutralized, well...

you could attempt to knock the attacker off their feet, you could go for a contact headshot, you could turn and run for your bedroom improvising obstacles along the way (closet doors and the like).

None of these are good options, you made mistakes early in the scenario that are hard to overcome now at the end.

thus the purpose of this discussion, so that we can learn to think critically and not make mistakes. i like the improvising obstacles.

JTROKS
04-25-2011, 1:19 AM
I know it's a handgun thread, but if you had a 12 gauge instead of a 1911 then all is solved.

Voo
04-25-2011, 4:59 AM
I'd run back to my room and close the door. Then i'd wait.. Not so close that if it crashes open it hits me, but put myself in a position so that it's literally contact distance when he enters. If they enter slow.. take the shot.. If they crash in, you should have a small amount of time before he realizes "where" you are.. Take that time to take two well aimed shots.. even if it's something like his pelvis to slow him down just enough to take one well aimed shot at his head..

Beyond that I can't see myself doing much else.. it's either stand your ground and shoot.. retreat and wait for a better shot... Or try to retreat completely..

jshoebot
04-25-2011, 5:29 AM
Go for the pelvis shot. It's a good sized target (almost as large as a torso), and it usually stays in a stable position while someone is charging in a straight line towards you. If you hit the pelvis, it will break, and he'll be immobile. Then call 911 and get the police on the way.

Would have handled it differently from the get-go, personally.

coyotebait
04-25-2011, 5:52 AM
Those who said that they would have handled it different from the beginning, what would you have done?

fuenstock
04-25-2011, 6:19 AM
I have a home alarm with a panic switch and my bedroom door is wood core/steel shell and dead bolted with the anti kick plate. I would have grabbed my weapon, hit panic switch and called 911. Next I would put my self behind the bed and aim at bedroom door ready for him if he tries to bust in. I wouldnt go investigate because you have no idea what your walking into. You could go take a look and find 3 armed guys in your house and your screwed. If the alarm didn't scare him and he tried to bust in bedroom I would yell I have a gun, maybe even take a shot into floor so he knows I'm serious. I wouldnt want to shot blind at door since I called police and it could be them at my door. If bad guy did get in bedroom then all I can do is take my shots and hope he goes down. That's what I think I would do, but I'm not sure what exactly would go down if it really happened.

blood ()f the Lamb
04-25-2011, 7:15 AM
A good reason to practice some sort of martial art if the enemy is able to close the distance. Jujitsu wrap that fool up and choke him out.

evolixsurf
04-25-2011, 7:42 AM
(I have been told) The guy would close on you(inside your house) in under 2 seconds. Literally. This would mean you would be squeezing that trigger so fast that all 8 rounds would go off within that two seconds. I would have shot 4 center mass and the last 4 at his head.....

Edit: I dont know what kind of dog you have, but hopefully hes jumping on the burglar and buying you some time for good accurate shots.

mif_slim
04-25-2011, 7:43 AM
Instead of shooting 4 shots and watch him charge at me and fire 2 then think about the last 2, in my training I was always taught that instance is my friend. I would of move back as soon as I saw the guy coming and take my shots as he came, then close doors, push my light stands, etc etc as I pass them to get to my room for reload. From there, I would of closed the door, lock it, sit at a corner and call 911, which I should of done in the first place.

mif_slim
04-25-2011, 7:44 AM
Instance = distance. Sorry. ;)

locosway
04-25-2011, 7:50 AM
Those who said that they would have handled it different from the beginning, what would you have done?

There's a very good reason to not go investigating a noise if you think someone may already be in your home. Tactically, it's stupid, and puts you on even terms or even losing terms depending on how the person is setup inside your home.

If you can stay put, do so. If you need to grab your kids, do that, but then take up a defensive position. Not having a light is a huge no no. Also not being prepared to miss and have to go hand to hand with someone is a no no. If you're prepared to shoot someone then you better be ready to fight to the death. No one wants to die, so you better believe both of you will fight it out as best you can. Your shots miss, so step into him so he can't swing on you. From there you have the upper hand since he was expecting to use his weapon.

HighLander51
04-25-2011, 8:58 AM
Well it's a great story but why do you start the scenario with an empty gun? with no tactical light, or night sights?

In my version I shoot the perp in the head with the first round, then call the police. Makes for a much shorter story.

leoffensive
04-25-2011, 9:16 AM
well i also keep a loaded 12GA mossberg with slugs next to the bed. you could always run back and grab something like that if you keep one. i dont care if hes wearing armor that slug will destroy him

sanjosebmx
04-25-2011, 9:20 AM
assuming the situation you described, turn and RUN! Get to more magazines / slam doors and or use that handgun as a weapon to get to the long gun.

for me, first line of defense would be the 12g, my PLAN is as follows;

Wife - phone 911
Big kids / get little kids into the safe room (no chance of crossfire in the safe room)
Me: Holster on (preloaded with 2 10 rd mags of hollow points)
Open nightstand safe, grab loaded .40 cal and holster
Grab 12g from behind the bedroom door
Get to position on landing with clear view of downstairs.
Hit remote switch to flood downstairs with light
Ready / Aim / Assess and or Fire.

**this is my best case scenario plan... working on doing practice drills (ongoing)..

red_eyez
04-25-2011, 9:54 AM
This is why I kept an extra loaded mag next to the gun (loaded), I would grabbed them both at the same time.

starsnuffer
04-25-2011, 10:30 AM
Shoot the dog and throw it at the burglar, tell him he has canine aids and start laughing like an insane person.

Seriously who thinks up this nonsense? OP looses for sheer Darwinism on leaving the bedroom with a door and potential cover and phone to go "investigate" a crash. Deserves whatever is coming. Who the hell wears body armor but carries a machete for a weapon? Too many late night video game sessions, methinks. Exit the gene pool without passing Go.

-W

JTROKS
04-25-2011, 10:30 AM
First I would put on my Pro-Ears tactical headphones and turn them on. Listen where the noise is and if you know your home you'll have an idea where the noise is coming from. Then I would secure all family members including the dog. I will probably just make a stand at the end of the hallway with the pistol at ready position, chambered round and safety on. I will then yell I have called the cops since he is in and more than likely set off the house alarm. Then I would tell my wife to hand me the 12 gauge.

Call_me_Tom
04-25-2011, 10:34 AM
Pelvis shot, almost as effective as a head shot.

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 10:35 AM
Well it's a great story but why do you start the scenario with an empty gun? with no tactical light, or night sights?

In my version I shoot the perp in the head with the first round, then call the police. Makes for a much shorter story.

because not every gun owner is as prepared as others. the purpose of this scenario is to get everyone to think critically and tactically. i purposely put mistakes into the scenario, things like going to investigate the noise. not having a flash light, gun not being loaded from the gitgo. mistakes that someone not trained, and does not think tactically would actually do in this situation. so we all can read it and learn what to do and what not to do.

SuperSet
04-25-2011, 10:36 AM
I agree with DannyZRC. Your scenario is flawed and implausible, especially the portion about the intruder wearing body armor and having no firearm himself. More than likely, you missed all your shots since you were firing wildly into the target since you didn't have proper illumination or night sights or you didn't have enough trigger time to make a difference in being armed.

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 10:38 AM
Shoot the dog and throw it at the burglar, tell him he has canine aids and start laughing like an insane person.

Seriously who thinks up this nonsense? OP looses for sheer Darwinism on leaving the bedroom with a door and potential cover and phone to go "investigate" a crash. Deserves whatever is coming. Who the hell wears body armor but carries a machete for a weapon? Too many late night video game sessions, methinks. Exit the gene pool without passing Go.

-W

keep your smart *** remarks to yourself, and leave the thread alone. if you dont want to participate in the discussion meaningfully then you are welcome to leave just as you came. per the first sentence in the thread.

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 10:43 AM
I agree with DannyZRC. Your scenario is flawed and implausible, especially the portion about the intruder wearing body armor and having no firearm himself. More than likely, you missed all your shots since you were firing wildly into the target since you didn't have proper illumination or night sights or you didn't have enough trigger time to make a difference in being armed.

how is it implausable for an intruder not to have body armor. you'd be suprised what a person would do. ask any police officer whos been on the beat a while. they will tell you some crazy stuff

SIGSHOOTR
04-25-2011, 11:09 AM
Doctrinal failures...

You didn't call the police when awoken by a loud crash
You are ALONE, but decided to grab a handgun and poke around
You didn't provide yourself with a lightsource (big one)


.....you made mistakes early in the scenario that are hard to overcome now at the end.

:rofl2: +1 LMAO. I just love reading these "scenarios". Call 911, tell the dispatcher to relay to the responding officers that you are armed and defending in place (in my case, the locked master bedroom on the second floor of my house) with my girlfriend-- the only other person in the house is the bad guy... go get 'em.

Ubermcoupe
04-25-2011, 11:16 AM
In that exact situation: prayer is the only thing that would save you... prayer that your neighbor just happened to out night walking with his 12ga, that the police just happened to drive by and hear commotion, that the BG suffers a stroke and drops dead.

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 11:39 AM
I'll bite....
Only thing is, I can't forget 20 years of tactical training.
Given your scenario, the chest shots are not effective, shoot for the naval area, lower abdominal area. Unless your attacker is 350 pounds, a .45 to the abdominal area even when wearing body armor is going to take the wind out of his sails. If you hit low (as in most urgent shootings) you will hit just below the armor line, hitting the stomach or pelvis, maybe even the upper thigh. Any of those hits will stop anyone. The area below the naval to the crotch is twice as large as the head, and contains vital organs, major artery's, liver, spleen, nerves and serious bone structure needed to walk.
I can go on and on about how mistakes were made out of the gate.
I have been to a lot of autopsy's, many involving officer involved shootings. The .45 is devastating to the human body and I have never witnessed a survivor of any 12 gauge wound where they were hit in the vitals. Yes, it is all about shot placement, but in the late 80's and early 90's when departments were still using .38's and 9mm's, I saw multiple hits to the torso be survivable.

that is the answer i was waiting for. thankyou wardog for the explanation as to why you would shoot for the naval area. most body armor does not extend past the naval, and there are vital areas that can be hit to slow down the suspect long enough to creat much needed distance.

folks that read the scenario didnt actually read it. they only read what they wanted and thought to them selves "this is stupid, no burglar is going to be wearing body armor and carry around a machete" and didnt stop to think about other areas of the human body that is also a viable target if shots to the center mass are not effective, and a head shot would be very difficult. ultimately the first instinct is to retreat immediately.

FatCity67
04-25-2011, 11:44 AM
Drop back to my room and grab my 9 shot tactical 12 ga that I should have grabbed to begin with. Then wait for the intruder to enter the room framing the suspect in the doorway and release all 9 shots of 00buck in 7-10 seconds and obliterate anything that remsembles a human. Then give my little Corgi a snack.

Quickdraw Mcgraw
04-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Double tab to the pelvis/end thread!

Stealth
04-25-2011, 12:17 PM
Have a Self-Defense light -- be it on the gun or a small hand held one.

Before firing a round -- blind him.

CAglock20c
04-25-2011, 12:19 PM
aim for his legs, duh

CAglock20c
04-25-2011, 12:19 PM
oh, and having some laser grips would really help in this situation- just sayinnnn

Packy14
04-25-2011, 12:27 PM
funny thread. I prefer a 9mm with 18 round mags, for just this situation ;) Or if there is more than 1 bg... i think 8 or even 10 rounds is inadequate. I keep 3-4 loaded mags, one in the gun. Hard to believe the guy has a vest but no gun and a machete (cuz robbers always rob houses w/ machetes in hand). I'm not sure I would have warned him either, he has a machete and he is in your house, I believe you would have the right to fear for your life and just shoot, and aim better for his head. Night sites are a must, a tac light would help but also give away your position. Rifle for HD is too much (danger to neighbors is higher than w/ hollowpoint handgun rounds, unless soft-tip rifle rounds are your load of choice).

elSquid
04-25-2011, 1:27 PM
that is the answer i was waiting for. thankyou wardog for the explanation as to why you would shoot for the naval area. most body armor does not extend past the naval, and there are vital areas that can be hit to slow down the suspect long enough to creat much needed distance.

folks that read the scenario didnt actually read it. they only read what they wanted and thought to them selves "this is stupid, no burglar is going to be wearing body armor and carry around a machete" and didnt stop to think about other areas of the human body that is also a viable target if shots to the center mass are not effective, and a head shot would be very difficult. ultimately the first instinct is to retreat immediately.

OTOH,

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20649

which talks about the pelvis. AFAIK, there's nothing special about a stomach shot that will guarantee that the assailant will notice, much less force a stop. What organ/blood vessel would you be hoping to hit? How big is the target area for said items?

A home intruder wearing body armor would appear to be quite rare, and therefore not something to spend a lot of time worrying about. If it is a big concern, use a Mini14 for HD and the problem pretty much goes away. ( unless the bad guy has... rifle plates inserted. :eek: The best way to counter that, of course, is with a flamethrower. )

I think that most people rolled their eyes because you presented an unlikely scenario.

-- Michael

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 2:35 PM
OTOH,

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=20649

which talks about the pelvis. AFAIK, there's nothing special about a stomach shot that will guarantee that the assailant will notice, much less force a stop. What organ/blood vessel would you be hoping to hit? How big is the target area for said items?

A home intruder wearing body armor would appear to be quite rare, and therefore not something to spend a lot of time worrying about. If it is a big concern, use a Mini14 for HD and the problem pretty much goes away. ( unless the bad guy has... rifle plates inserted. :eek: The best way to counter that, of course, is with a flamethrower. )

I think that most people rolled their eyes because you presented an unlikely scenario.

-- Michael

Is a gangbanger with military training an unlikely scenario. How about the terrorists who hijacked planes with box cutters.

elSquid
04-25-2011, 2:47 PM
Is a gangbanger with military training an unlikely scenario. How about the terrorists who hijacked planes with box cutters.

So, how many instances of body armor usage have you found? What percentage of all burglaries/invasions involve body armor? Is body armor and a machete a bigger concern than intruders with firearms? More a concern than multiple intruders?

I think the biggest issue about your scenario is that the lesson that you tried to impart wrt to shooting to the navel and below may not be all that valid.

Here's some basic anatomy: ( taken from wikipedia )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Surface_projections_of_the_organs_of_the_trunk.png/240px-Surface_projections_of_the_organs_of_the_trunk.png

There aren't a lot of vital things to be hit in that locale.

-- Michael

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 2:52 PM
I am a marginal follower of Paul Castle's theories, so I have to offer that after 4 rounds COM, I'd be all about head shots from then on.

I'd probably already be retreating back into the bedroom as well. He'll have to bash/hack through the (solid core, 3-hinges at my house) bedroom door if he wants to get to me ... so I'll already have reloaded and probably have switched to shotgun by that time.

There are no certainties, but I have already purposed in my mind to prevail no matter what.

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 2:57 PM
Double tab to the pelvis/end thread!
Somehow I think that if 6 rounds of .45ACP haven't done the job, throwing a diet soft drink or 2 at his crotch won't work either, lol.

Warhawk014
04-25-2011, 3:00 PM
So, how many instances of body armor usage have you found? What percentage of all burglaries/invasions involve body armor? Is body armor and a machete a bigger concern than intruders with firearms? More a concern than multiple intruders?

I think the biggest issue about your scenario is that the lesson that you tried to impart wrt to shooting to the navel and below may not be all that valid.

Here's some basic anatomy: ( taken from wikipedia )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Surface_projections_of_the_organs_of_the_trunk.png/240px-Surface_projections_of_the_organs_of_the_trunk.png

There aren't a lot of vital things to be hit in that locale.

-- Michael

2 hits to the lower abdominal is better than 2 misses to the head. Re read the scenario. It may not stop him immediately but it will slow him down so you can retreat back to your bedroom.

DannyZRC
04-25-2011, 3:05 PM
someone hot on adrenaline may not even notice they've been shot in the guts.

so much misinformation and idiotic mythology in this thread.(note to thin skins, idiotic mythology doesn't mean I'm calling you an idiot for repeating it)

elSquid
04-25-2011, 3:09 PM
2 hits to the lower abdominal is better than 2 misses to the head. Re read the scenario. It may not stop him immediately but it will slow him down so you can retreat back to your bedroom.

I think that's doubtful that it would stop or slow. People can take a hell of a lot of punishment. The assailant might not even realize that he was shot.

This is a must read:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

This is a great listen ( IIRC, the interview starts 5 or so minutes in ). The gentleman's first gunfight is an eye opener.

http://proarmspodcast.com/2010/05/23/052-interview-with-bob-stasch-of-the-chicago-police-department/

mp3 -> http://media.blubrry.com/proarms/content.blubrry.com/proarms/052.mp3

-- Michael

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 3:32 PM
... Think temporary wound cavity and all the the pressure that must go somewhere. Those lower intestines are going to liquify, and shred.
Not ... especially at handgun pressures. Demonstrated fact ... not open to discussion or "experience" any more than the "opinion" that 2+2=47.

just giving advice from my experiences.
I'd never ask if you didn't mention it, but what experience do you have, relating to the scenario you presented, which would cause me to discount what is known about terminal ballistics regarding liquefying organs and such with pistol rounds?

sanjosebmx
04-25-2011, 4:07 PM
vee_qqJ0dLk"F-it" bring a big A$S stick

sanjosebmx
04-25-2011, 4:09 PM
sorry dupe

Ricky808maui
04-25-2011, 4:18 PM
Ummm would hornady hollow points penentrate soft body armor..... Jus wonderin..... Cool scenario..... U should do a zombie one

blood ()f the Lamb
04-25-2011, 4:50 PM
:p:DDrop back to my room and grab my 9 shot tactical 12 ga that I should have grabbed to begin with. Then wait for the intruder to enter the room framing the suspect in the doorway and release all 9 shots of 00buck in 7-10 seconds and obliterate anything that remsembles a human. Then give my little Corgi a snack.


Me likey:28:

locosway
04-25-2011, 5:51 PM
I have NO experience in witnessing handgun rounds liquefying organs.
Perhaps I should have chosen my words better. How about 'tear' & 'crush' for most handgun rounds, and save the 'liquification' for rifle rounds.
However I have seen 9mm bullets stopped by the pelvis bone and even the humerus bone, a .45 ACP remove portions of the heart and lungs from a bad guy shot in the armpit, and blow the resulting jellied mass onto the grass he was standing on, a .45 ACP wound in the shoulder socket which was much more devastating than a 9mm in a similar high chest wound.
I have more experience with battlefield wounds than I care for, and most of those were obvious long-gun wounds, but usually the caliber/nomenclature of the injury is an unknown. I would use liquification as a word to describe those wounds but I never witnessed a autopsy for those.
When I state I am giving my advice based on my experience, I did not specifically mean liquefying organs. I meant all of my responses in this topic.

Luckily we have many members here that post 1000+ posts a year to keep the rest of us from making an error. :rolleyes:
Now back to the program, but no zombies please. I believe there is limited projectile effectiveness studies on them.

So, the military uses bonded JHP bullets in all their guns? I'm assuming so since you're an expert on battlefield wounds, especially the difference between a .45 and 9mm.

I'd rather not get into this debate again, but it's asinine to post things like this. Ball ammo sucks! The bigger the ball, the better it stops. JHP ammo is far superior to ball ammo against tissue, and when you compare a bonded JHP 9mm against a .45 the differences suddenly disappear.

MASTERLAB
04-25-2011, 6:08 PM
what if his body armor covers the pelvis area, what if he has a leval III bullet proof mask as well

cindynles
04-25-2011, 8:05 PM
So the attacker is wearing body armor but wielding a machete? :rolleyes:

Packy14
04-25-2011, 8:06 PM
Ummm would hornady hollow points penentrate soft body armor..... Jus wonderin..... Cool scenario..... U should do a zombie one

No. Fast light ammo does, like rifle rounds and some FN-5.7 rounds (the good stuff that you probably don't have)

PandaLuv
04-25-2011, 8:13 PM
Shoot him in the kneecaps or legs in general, if that fails, throw my gun at him and run for my life.

PS
Why would he have body armor and no guns?

SixPointEight
04-25-2011, 8:41 PM
ok ladies and gents, heres a scenario for everyone to discuss. serious comments only please, do not pollute this thread with smart *** comments. i want to know what you would do in this situation. the situation is exactly as i discribe it. no other unknown variables exists. ok...

you live by yourself in a 1 story house outside city limits, the closest neighbors are approximately 200 yards away. while sleeping in your room with your corgi at the foot of your bed, you awaken to a loud thunderous crash coming from the living room. your dog begins to bark at the bedroom door leading into the hallway. you quickly retrieve your 1911 45 acp from the nightstand. you load it with a single 8 round mag and head into the hallway to investigate the noise. as you turn into the living room you are confronted by a burglar wielding a 32 inch machete. you immediately take aim at the suspect and order him to drop the weapon on the ground and put his hands in the air. the suspect does not comply with your order and begins to charge at you from a distance of 15 yards away. you fire 4 shots center mass all with positive impacts but the burglar only flinches, stops for a split second and continues his charge towards you. he is now only 10 yards away from you and you fire 2 more shots aiming for his head. because he is moving you miss both shots, you know you only have 2 rounds left in the gun. it is now apparent that the suspect is wearing some sort of body armor and cannot be taken down with COM shots and head shots are very difficult because he is a moving target. you have only seconds to decide your next course of action, if you fail to act and the suspect closes the remaining distance HE WILL KILL YOU. you must somehow SLOW him down long enough to retreat to your bedroom so that you can reload.

what do you do...... lets discuss this in a serious manner. please explain your reason for taking a certain course of action. i know what i would do, what would you do.:)

Rewind, wake up, grab ar15, slap bolt release, penetrate body armor.

starsnuffer
04-25-2011, 8:52 PM
Assume any clumsy (crashing sound) humanoid with a machete is a zombie and always aim for the head.

-W

drifts1
04-25-2011, 9:02 PM
Has anyone suggested retreating back to the bedroom and grabing the katana hanging above your headboard? :shuriken:

Then it would be a fair fight!

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 10:10 PM
I have NO experience in witnessing handgun rounds liquefying organs. Curious that you'd use the term then regarding this scenario.

Perhaps I should have chosen my words better. How about 'tear' & 'crush' for most handgun rounds, and save the 'liquification' for rifle rounds. Perhaps.

However I have seen 9mm bullets stopped by the pelvis bone and even the humerus bone,
I assume you are a combat medic as well as an amazing on-the-spot forensic examiner. Else how would you identify the stopped rounds? How do you reconcile this with your training, which would indicate a different expectation?

... a .45 ACP remove portions of the heart and lungs from a bad guy shot in the armpit, and blow the resulting jellied mass onto the grasses he was standing on ...
A "jellied mass" but somehow you are able to clearly identify it (in the heat of battle no less) as being heart and lung tissue? I wonder, how were you able to identify the offending round, since clearly it penetrated?

... a .45 ACP wound in the shoulder socket which was much more devastating than a 9mm in a similar high chest wound. Interesting that none of the available literature reports anything like this.

I have more experience with battlefield wounds than I care for, and most of those were obvious long-gun wounds, but usually the caliber/nomenclature of the injury is an unknown. I would use liquification as a word to describe those wounds but I never witnessed a autopsy for those. An amazing admission given your other statements.

When I state I am giving my advice based on my experience, I did not specifically mean liquefying organs. I meant all of my responses in this topic. I await your memoirs. Clearly you have a unique set of life experiences.

Luckily we have many members here that post 1000+ posts a year to keep the rest of us from making an error. :rolleyes: I fail to see where post count means anything. I've certainly never even implied that my post count establishes any bona-fides. It seems you have a habit of making things up.

Now back to the program, but no zombies please. I believe there is limited projectile effectiveness studies on them. I'm sure if there were zombies, you'd have extensive experience.

Perhaps I am twisting your words? I dunno, but much of this has a certain "ring" to it. There appear to be a bunch of assertions which are either impossible on their face or contradictory in nature. Can you help be resolve this apparent problem? And please don't get so defensive ... we're all here to learn, and perhaps much from your perspective. Please just consider the direct nature of my questions as an opportunity to teach.

evolixsurf
04-25-2011, 10:32 PM
Some of you guys need to relax. Good lord. I think the poster did a good job creating the scenario to get everyones responses. Someone who comes into your house in the middle of the night to rob you is likely high or is not all there mentally. Some of you are missing the point.

Warhawk014
04-26-2011, 12:19 AM
Some of you guys need to relax. Good lord. I think the poster did a good job creating the scenario to get everyones responses. Someone who comes into your house in the middle of the night to rob you is likely high or is not all there mentally. Some of you are missing the point.

alot of people missed the point all together and just began criticizing the flawed and unrealistic scenario. as flawed and unrealistic as it may be, the point is to get you to think on your feet, quickly evaluate the situation and decide on a course of action. everyone wants to talk about caliber this and caliber that, this gun and that gun. everyone wants to talk about what type of gear is most reliable, but no one really thinks about what is most important. your brain, and the ability to think quickly on your feet. this is key to any situation in any scenario. tactics, training and mindset are vital to your survival. there is no rewind button, no easy way out. and just like my Sgt. constantly reminds me, you don't know how much sh** your getting into until your neck deep in it. and you better think quick to get yourself out or your gonna die.

hardware is useless, if you dont have the software to use it.

Call_me_Tom
04-26-2011, 5:33 AM
Like I said before, shoot the pelvis, the guy will drop.

starsnuffer
04-26-2011, 8:41 AM
alot of people missed the point all together and just began criticizing the flawed and unrealistic scenario. as flawed and unrealistic as it may be, the point is to get you to think on your feet, quickly evaluate the situation and decide on a course of action. everyone wants to talk about caliber this and caliber that, this gun and that gun. everyone wants to talk about what type of gear is most reliable, but no one really thinks about what is most important. your brain, and the ability to think quickly on your feet. this is key to any situation in any scenario. tactics, training and mindset are vital to your survival. there is no rewind button, no easy way out. and just like my Sgt. constantly reminds me, you don't know how much sh** your getting into until your neck deep in it. and you better think quick to get yourself out or your gonna die.

hardware is useless, if you dont have the software to use it.

People are being critical for the exact reason you mentioned. The prestated actions in your scenario show a clear lack of brain function, so it's hard to complete your exercise without tongue in cheek. You can't expect the brain to suddenly start working after a series of failure. . . sure, on the internet, you can get people stating some intelligent things with a lot of thought put into them. . . but if the brain was already non-functioning to the point where you asked "what now?" in your scenario, the astute poster will not assume that the brain will suddenly turn on. I think that this contributes to why you did not get the outcome you originally sought.

-W

luckystrike
04-26-2011, 10:18 AM
Well it's a great story but why do you start the scenario with an empty gun? with no tactical light, or night sights?

In my version I shoot the perp in the head with the first round, then call the police. Makes for a much shorter story.

thats another 20 tacticool points since you mentioned a tactical light.

personally I beleave mistakes were made early. live alone, no reason to go hunt for the noise, if you had family sleeping in another room then it would be a different story.

if the fruit has a machete then he is wanting to play on the 1st couple seconds of "WTF" factor on your end. thats why you should be naked, it plays on his WTF/fears:D

coyotebait
04-26-2011, 10:25 AM
thats another 20 tacticool points since you mentioned a tactical light.

personally I beleave mistakes were made early. live alone, no reason to go hunt for the noise, if you had family sleeping in another room then it would be a different story.

if the fruit has a machete then he is wanting to play on the 1st couple seconds of "WTF" factor on your end. thats why you should be naked, it plays on his WTF/fears:D

I WOULD be able to gain the upper hand on him as he's puking at the sight of me naked.:eek:

evidens83
04-26-2011, 10:35 AM
Flamethrower

/ridiculous hypothetical scenario

luckystrike
04-26-2011, 12:47 PM
I WOULD be able to gain the upper hand on him as he's puking at the sight of me naked.:eek:

:rofl2:

smokingloon
04-26-2011, 1:07 PM
I'd shoot at the pelvic region

Moto4Fun
04-26-2011, 2:54 PM
Interesting thread despite the fact that most of the people here miss the point.
So to answer the question, we can ignore how we got to the position we are in, and forget the details of the story (which really sounds like a bad dream), and focus on the facts: We are 2 rounds from empty, naked in the living room/hallway with an aggressive intruder who is not affected by shots to the body, and he is closing in on us quickly armed with a machete.

With the distance given, i don't believe there is time for much option. I would certainly want to be retreating to cover, but I would also want to get those last two rounds airborne as well. It would take a serious lunatic to run/march head first into a guy firing a gun at you, but if he is coming straight at you take your time, get a good bead on him and when he's at the 3 yard marker, let him have it with one shot to the head. If you miss with that, you might be sacrificing your off-hand to defend a machete, but at contact distance you should be able make it happen with your last round. Then you start bashing him in the face with your new hammer!

Too many people wanted to analyze the scenario that you presented rather than respond to the situation you put them in. That's too bad for them. But I like these types of posts. They are little more thought provoking than random gun and caliber comparisons.

Moto4Fun
04-26-2011, 3:01 PM
I also find it interesting that there are suggestions for Pelvic Region shots. I have never heard anybody recommend this until this thread. It makes sense to me because there is a lot going on there that will affect mobility. While rounds to the gut may not affect some people, I thing getting shot in the pelvis or hip bone would certainly make a difference. With the attachment points of you big leg muscles, all of the lower body nerves, and your reproductive member front and center in that region; I think a pelvic shot would be pretty devastating.

Call_me_Tom
04-26-2011, 3:52 PM
I also find it interesting that there are suggestions for Pelvic Region shots. I have never heard anybody recommend this until this thread. It makes sense to me because there is a lot going on there that will affect mobility. While rounds to the gut may not affect some people, I thing getting shot in the pelvis or hip bone would certainly make a difference. With the attachment points of you big leg muscles, all of the lower body nerves, and your reproductive member front and center in that region; I think a pelvic shot would be pretty devastating.
We teach that in the Corps as an alternative to head shots. They give the statistics, which I don't remember off hand, but head shot is instant incapacitation while a pelvic shot will kill after so many seconds/minutes. It will drop the aggressor right on the spot which is the point of this thread.

SPaikmos
04-26-2011, 4:05 PM
As described, I probably take my last two shots, miss with both and get chopped up by the machete wielding burgler... Just being honest...

The smart answer is to retreat to your bedroom and access more firepower. Even smarter is to retreat the moment you see the threat, lock your bedroom and call 911.

This made me chuckle. I don't know about you, but a 10 year old could kick down an interior door in my house. The amount of time it takes to fiddle with the lock would be better spent running for the SG.

SupportGeek
04-26-2011, 4:05 PM
I was thinking pelvis/groin too, especially since the guy was charging at me. Im at a dead stop, and he is at this point 10-15 feet I can imagine, he will be on me before I can take a step to retreat. Anyone that thinks they are going to beat someone already at a full run in a small space back to the bedroom from a dead stop is kidding themselves.
Last 2 into the groin, step into him to allow no room to swing his machete and pistol whip him in the bridge of the nose.

emptybottle151
04-26-2011, 4:05 PM
Shoot him in the dick and if you miss the small target you will at least hit his legs, possibly the femoral artery.

DannyZRC
04-26-2011, 4:11 PM
We teach that in the Corps as an alternative to head shots. They give the statistics, which I don't remember off hand, but head shot is instant incapacitation while a pelvic shot will kill after so many seconds/minutes. It will drop the aggressor right on the spot which is the point of this thread.

a rifle shot will, not likely from a pistol round (see linked DocGKR thread from an earlier post re: pelvic shots)

coyotebait
04-26-2011, 4:33 PM
Interesting thread despite the fact that most of the people here miss the point.
So to answer the question, we can ignore how we got to the position we are in, and forget the details of the story (which really sounds like a bad dream), and focus on the facts: We are 2 rounds from empty, naked in the living room/hallway with an aggressive intruder who is not affected by shots to the body, and he is closing in on us quickly armed with a machete.

With the distance given, i don't believe there is time for much option. I would certainly want to be retreating to cover, but I would also want to get those last two rounds airborne as well. It would take a serious lunatic to run/march head first into a guy firing a gun at you, but if he is coming straight at you take your time, get a good bead on him and when he's at the 3 yard marker, let him have it with one shot to the head. If you miss with that, you might be sacrificing your off-hand to defend a machete, but at contact distance you should be able make it happen with your last round. Then you start bashing him in the face with your new hammer!

Too many people wanted to analyze the scenario that you presented rather than respond to the situation you put them in. That's too bad for them. But I like these types of posts. They are little more thought provoking than random gun and caliber comparisons.

I agree, very thought provoking. Preparing for the "expected" is easy, it's the unexpected that'll bite you in the ***** every time. The scenario kinda sounds like a scene from one of the "Friday the 13th" movies, big dude, machete, bullets don't affect him, all we need now is a hockey mask. On a side note, I bet the cops in North Hollywood didn't expect what they ran in to that day at B of A.

elSquid
04-26-2011, 5:45 PM
I agree, very thought provoking. Preparing for the "expected" is easy, it's the unexpected that'll bite you in the ***** every time. The scenario kinda sounds like a scene from one of the "Friday the 13th" movies, big dude, machete, bullets don't affect him, all we need now is a hockey mask. On a side note, I bet the cops in North Hollywood didn't expect what they ran in to that day at B of A.

I think the thing is that these things don't only happen with a big guy, in a mask, wearing armor, wielding a machete. A guy that doesn't want to give up the fight is hard to stop, period.

Here's a story of a one-on-one gunfight between a police officer and a bad guy. The officer was shot multiple times, the bad guy was shot 22 times with a 40S&W....

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

-- Michael

baz152
04-26-2011, 6:17 PM
that is the answer i was waiting for. thankyou wardog for the explanation as to why you would shoot for the naval area. most body armor does not extend past the naval, and there are vital areas that can be hit to slow down the suspect long enough to creat much needed distance.

folks that read the scenario didnt actually read it. they only read what they wanted and thought to them selves "this is stupid, no burglar is going to be wearing body armor and carry around a machete" and didnt stop to think about other areas of the human body that is also a viable target if shots to the center mass are not effective, and a head shot would be very difficult. ultimately the first instinct is to retreat immediately.

Shootings do not happen like they do in the movies. The only shot that will drop someone is a head shot which takes out the brain stem (Aim for the nose not the forehead). That being said a shot to the gut will not stop someone, that guy with a machete will still be hacking you up to little bits after you put two in his gut.

There have been many cases where a suspect has been shot numerous times (Even in the heart) and they kept fighting for close to a minute or more. There is a famous FBI shootout which happened in Florida where they shot the suspect numerous times and the suspect continued the fight and killed four agents. This is the same reason why Police shootings often times end up looking excessive, because the Officers shoot until the threat has stoped.

In this situation, I would have taken a step back into my room, barricaded the door and picked up a bigger gun.

In reality, I would...

A) Have a bigger dog (German Sheppard)

B) Bought a bigger gun with better capacity (You brought a gun because you thought you might need it otherwise you would have brought the guy a glass of water.

C) The guy is in your house with a large weapon... you do not need to tell him to drop the weapon yada yada yada, you shoot him without saying a word. The fact that he is in your house with a weapon makes him a threat to your life.

USMC 82-86
04-26-2011, 9:05 PM
Well for me a call would definitely go out to 911. Second my living room is 4 rooms away that means I have to clear 4 rooms on the way to the living room. Third not knowing how many threats I am facing in the dark is suicide, if I have limited ammo staying put is the best defense. In my room I can position my self lower behind the bed to provide some cover. It keeps most of my vitals covered, I become a smaller target, and the bed provides a pretty stable shooting platform to give a fighting chance. I then let the threat walk into the hornets nest if he chooses to lose his life. This is if I am alone as you described.

coyotebait
04-27-2011, 5:56 AM
I think the thing is that these things don't only happen with a big guy, in a mask, wearing armor, wielding a machete. A guy that doesn't want to give up the fight is hard to stop, period.

Here's a story of a one-on-one gunfight between a police officer and a bad guy. The officer was shot multiple times, the bad guy was shot 22 times with a 40S&W....

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci

-- Michael

I agree, the problem is if the O.P. would have described the intruder as being 5'7" at 130lbs with no body armor the responses would have been claiming that the story was B.S. because there's no way a small guy like that could absorb 6 rounds from a 45. I've never been involved in a self defense shooting scenario but I've shot enough fury creatures to know that they don't always drop when/where you expect them to.

coyotebait
04-27-2011, 6:06 AM
Well for me a call would definitely go out to 911. Second my living room is 4 rooms away that means I have to clear 4 rooms on the way to the living room. Third not knowing how many threats I am facing in the dark is suicide, if I have limited ammo staying put is the best defense. In my room I can position my self lower behind the bed to provide some cover. It keeps most of my vitals covered, I become a smaller target, and the bed provides a pretty stable shooting platform to give a fighting chance. I then let the threat walk into the hornets nest if he chooses to lose his life. This is if I am alone as you described.

I'm sure I would have a handgun LOADED on my nightstand (so if I wake up and he's in my room) but I would also have my trusty shotgun loaded right next to my bed. This is what I did before the kids came along. My set up is a little different nowadays.