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GI-M1
11-20-2006, 2:00 AM
Hi everyone! I'm a regular on the CSP website and had a question that didn't get a response from anyone that knew what they were talking about. No flame here, just didn't feel that the responses didn't meshed with anything that I already knew.

Here is my current situation......

I have two M1A receivers that I would like to build up into complete rifles. One of them is an early LRB experimental receiver (serial #X0010x), while the other is an early SA receiver (serial#70xx). I purchased both within the past year. I purchased them on Gunbroker.com and had them received in by a local FFL dealer here in San Diego and there were legally registed with DOJ.

I realize that the original USGI 'flash hidder' is illegal to put onto these rifles. What options do I have to install 'something' onto the muzzle of my M1A's? Smith Enterprise's muzzle break? Springfield Armory muzzle break? Can I 'pin & sleeve' an existing USGI flash hidder (legal?)?

Other than the flash hidder or muzzel break, are there any other parts \ configuration considerations that I need to be aware of?

Also, I have a 2nd question. I bought an M1A about 17 years ago and registered it like I was suppose to with DOJ (I take a copy of the registration letter with me to the range). Along with that rifle was a 20 round magazine. Can I use that 20 round mag. with either of the other M1A's that I am currently building up right now, or is that 20 round mag. restricted to the M1A that I originally registered with DOJ?

Thanks in advance for 'difinitive' information that anyone can post for me.

ElBandito
11-20-2006, 2:08 AM
Flash hiders/supressors are illegal in CA. You have 3 options.
1)Smith Enterprise USCG Muzzle Brake
-i have one on my m1a
2)SAI Muzzle Brake
3)"Neuter" your USGI Flash Hider
-basically cutting off the part of the flash hider that extends beyond the crown of the muzzle. leaving the dovetail for your front sight to be used

You can keep your 20rd magazines since they were in your posession prior to 1999 i believe. Also pistol grips are a no no ie sage EBR or troy SOPMOD stocks

tenpercentfirearms
11-20-2006, 6:12 AM
What do you mean when you say registration? Simply filling out a DROS or buying a firearm is not "registration", it is just buying a firearm.

Registering a firearm is only required when it is declared an assault weapon and you send in the paperwork on a separate card to the DOJ and they send you a registration letter back.

So in 2000 did you leave the flash hider on your old M1A and send in the registration paperwork along with $25 to the DOJ? If so, then you can have a flash hider or any other evil features you want on it. If all you did was just buy it 17 years ago and did not send in registration paperwork in 2000, then it is not registered and if you currently have a flash hider still on it you are sitting on a felony. I would recommend getting a muzzle brake for it as soon as possible or simply removing the flash hider immediately and leaving it off until you find a muzzle brake.

An important first step is going to be learning what registration is and what it really means. Buying guns is not registering them. Registering guns is sending special cards to the DOJ after they declare firearms assault weapons, paying a fee, and receiving a letter back stating you have an assault weapon. And no, the registration period is over so there is no way to register any firearms you have, for right now.

JPglee1
11-20-2006, 6:28 AM
3)"Neuter" your USGI Flash Hider
-basically cutting off the part of the flash hider that extends beyond the crown of the muzzle. leaving the dovetail for your front sight to be used


Or slip a piece of thinwall tubing over it and spot weld/silver solder in place.

Would also work on an SKS grenade launcher or an XM177 style flash hider (in that case I'd put the sleeve inside and plug weld thru the bottom flash hider slot to retain the "look")


JP

stator
11-20-2006, 7:33 AM
If you plan on shooting these it service rifle competition, the only option is the SA Inc. muzzle break (which is a poor excuse for a brake). If not, the SEI muzzle break is nice and much more effective.

I have both but just use the SA Inc. version due to competition rules.

mltrading
11-20-2006, 11:04 AM
For the two receivers you tend to build, you CAN NOT have USGI flash hiders on them. That would be illegal. You may purchase the SpringField CA-legal muzzle brake.

For the 20-round mags, it's nothing to do with "the AW registration". Since you acquired them prior to the ban, you can continue to use them on any of your legal firearms.:)

bwiese
11-20-2006, 11:37 AM
OK, let's get a few things cleared up and some possible misperceptions fixed up...


I have two M1A receivers that I would like to build up into complete rifles. One of them is an early LRB experimental receiver (serial #X0010x), while the other is an early SA receiver (serial#70xx). I purchased both within the past year. I purchased them on Gunbroker.com and had them received in by a local FFL dealer here in San Diego and there were legally registed with DOJ.

Let's not confuse purchase paperwork with entirely separate Assault Weapons registration. Technically, ordinary long guns are not registered. Supposedly there is no record of your ownership of a specific long gun after purchase. (DOJ actions earlier this year by field staff were in violation of law.)

By 'registered', do you mean that you just filled out the normal 4473 "I'm-not-a-wifebeating-druggie-felon" form and CA "DROS" paperwork, and the associated 10 day wait? That is, the normal gunshop drill?

Or did you acquire these receivers in 1999 or before and - in addition to the purchase paperwork - file a separate additional special assault weapons registration (with $20 fee), registering these guns/receivers as assault weapons between 1/1/2000 and 12/31/2000? This separate filing would have been done by you outside the gunshop.

If you did this latter thing (assault weapons registration), your LRB & SA receivers are indeed registered assault weapons and you can have evil features attached (like pistol grip, SAGE folder stock, flash hider, etc.).

If you did not do this latter special registration, you CANNOT have evil features and must build it up into an ordinary rifle configured like the new M1As you see at gunshops in CA. You CANNOT have a flash hider on such an M1A (and must instead use some sort of muzzle brake, fake flash hider, thread protector or even a bare muzzle - whatever's appropriate.)

I realize that the original USGI 'flash hidder' is illegal to put onto these rifles.

Yup. And there have been some not-bright folks busted for this, with felony AW charges filed. Walk carefully.

What options do I have to install 'something' onto the muzzle of my M1A's? Smith Enterprise's muzzle break? Springfield Armory muzzle break?


All these muzzle brakes are legal. Other folks here can give you reports on their efficacy as brakes. As far as recoil, I have no complaints about my S.A. Calif muzzle brake shooting my M1A. Others' opinions may be more relevant as they are better M1A shooters (mine's just had its 1st shooting session and scope needs shimming), as my 308 shooting is usually on an AR10 or a Rem 700 LTR.

Can I 'pin & sleeve' an existing USGI flash hidder (legal?)?

NO NO NO!!! You're confusing some of the now-sunset federal AW ban with the separate, nonoverlapping CA stuff. A flash hider attached to a semiautomatic centerfire rifle w/detachable magazine, regardless of permanence of attachment, method, is illegal. Period.

NO FLASH HIDERS ON ORDINARY M1As NOT SPECIALLY REGISTERED AS ASSAULT WEAPONS.

Other than the flash hidder or muzzel break, are there any other parts configuration considerations that I need to be aware of?

Well, quite a few idiots have been 'permanently affixing' magazines (i.e., nondetachable, and loaded with stripper clips from top of rifle). This would allow flash hider to be retained if the magazine were 10 rounds or less. (Gawd knows why they wanna do this. I think they heard of the flash hider bust(s) in LA area and decided to quickly "fix" their rifle into a supposedly legal configuration and didn't read the laws carefully.

Unfortunately these space cadets appear to have been permanently affixing 20rd standard hicaps, which triggers a secondary, alternate 12276.1 PC definition of assault weapon (regardless of the presence of flash hider or other evil features like pistol grips, folding stocks, etc.)

Under CA law, a semiautomatic centerfire rifle cannot have a *fixed* magazine over 10 rounds.

If you have a CA M1A with muzzle brake, do NOT permenantly attach a hicap mag or you've illegally created an assault weapon. Make sure that mag is detachable :)

These concepts were brought to you by the intellectual brilliance of liberal statist democrats :)


Also, I have a 2nd question. I bought an M1A about 17 years ago and registered it like I was suppose to with DOJ (I take a copy of the registration letter with me to the range).

Again, do you mean 'registered' as the normal paperwork when you bought the gun, or to a special registration card you filed with DOJ during CA generic assault weapons registration period during 1/1/2000 - 12/31/2000? Again, this would have happened separately from anything that occurred at the gunshop at time of purchase. You'd've instigated yourself if you had managed to have heard the DOJ's limited announcement of a registration period for generic assault wepaons in 1999 - 2000.


Along with that rifle was a 20 round magazine. Can I use that 20 round mag. with either of the other M1A's that I am currently building up right now, or is that 20 round mag. restricted to the M1A that I originally registered with DOJ?


Ahh, well, regardless of your rifle's status as a regular rifle or registered assault weapon, you are free to use any lawfully-owned detachable hicap mag with any of your M1As.

I have an M1A not reg'd as an AW, which I purchased in 2000, and I use legal hicap mags for it I acquired in 1998-1999.

In 1999, many, many folks (such as myself), bought hundreds of mags for firearms we didn't even own yet. For example, I have a ton of Beretta 92, as well as various Sig P22x and Ruger P89 magazines and I own none of these guns. If I did acquire them, it'd be perfectly legal for these hicap mags to be used in these guns.

Oh, BTW - what is a legal hicap mag in California? One that you acquired and had in CA on or before 12/31/1999.

GI-M1
11-20-2006, 12:30 PM
Sorry for the confussion guys, I did not 'register them' as assault rifles (the two M1A receivers) when I bought them a couple of years ago. I simply filled out the normal 4473 form and the CA "DROS" paper work (with related 10 day wait period.

Sorry for the confusion. I collect M1 Garands and don't typically have to worry about the Assault Weapons requirements.

The M1A that I purchased in 1989 was registered twice, once in the early 1990's and the 2nd time in 2001(?). I have a confirmation letter from DOJ (dated Nov 2001) indicating that my M1A was registered.

I plan to use the rifle(s) in military rifle matches. Is the SA Inc. muzzle break the only one that I can use? Is the Smith Enterprise (USCG) muzzle break not allowed for such matches?


Hope this helps clarify my situation.

Mark
San Diego

bwiese
11-20-2006, 12:50 PM
Sorry for the confussion guys, I did not 'register them' as assault rifles when I bought them a couple of years ago. I simply filled out the normal 4473 form and the CA "DROS" paper work (with related 10 day wait period.

Sorry for the confusion. I collect M1 Garands and don't typically have to worry about the Assault Weapons requirements.

Hahaha. A lot of the old M1A/Garand guys thought they were immune, but some are getting popped now for felonies.

Many of them, along with what I call "the duck hunters", were not terribly supportive of the Black Rifle/assault weapons folks and did not throw their weight against Roberti-Roos and SB23 because "their guns" (M1A, Garand, and Mini14) were 'protected'. A similar thing happened with SASS diverging from NRA's position w/respect to SB15 handgun safety testing: they got their 'gift' of single action revolvers being safety-test exempt at the expense of everyone else. In reality, if a nonfragmented opposition were presented some of these laws may well not have passed. (Most laws pass by only a few votes.)

This is why we need unity in the gun world. I may not give a damn about someone's particular gun, but somehow a law passed against it may well affect me later - and vice versa.


The M1A that I purchased in 1989 was registered twice, once in the early 1990's and the 2nd time in 2001(?). I have a confirmation letter from DOJ (dated Nov 2001) indicating that my M1A was registered.

Oh, you mean 'voluntary registration'. What does the text of your letter say - just something like "yes, you, John Q. Smith, own a Brand X rifle serial # 123456..."


I plan to use the rifle(s) in military rifle matches. Is the SA Inc. muzzle break the only one that I can use? Is the Smith Enterprise (USCG) is not allowed for such matches?

If it's the Smith brake appearing similar to what I have on an AR upper, it looks substantially different than the original flash hider and may not pass a match's cosmetic appearance test or whatever it's called.

The Springfield Armory M1A muzzle brake is designed to roughly, at least, match the overall appearance (profile & form-factor) of the original flash hider.

GI-M1
11-20-2006, 3:51 PM
Thanks for the valuable info Bwiese....I just don't want to get in trouble with the law. This is a hobby for me, not worth getting thrown in jail for.

My DOJ letter is on a DOJ letterhead and is out of their Firearms Licensing and Permits Unit. It is dated Nov 20, 2001. There is a Record Number (5 digits) and then the title of the letter is "ASSAULT WEAPON REGISTRATION CONFIRMATION NOTICE". The letter goes on to say that the following weapons have been processed by DOJ and that the following (on a list) are approved and registered pursuant to Penal Code section 12285. And after that are the 4 assault rifles that I registered.

Photos of my 'evil', but 'legal' rifle are attached (the one that I purchased in 1989:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/marsride/128-2843_IMG.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/marsride/128-2841_IMG.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/marsride/128-2840_IMG.jpg

bwiese
11-20-2006, 4:07 PM
Thanks for the valuable info Bwiese....I just don't want to get in trouble with the law. This is a hobby for me, not worth getting thrown in jail for.

Yes, but you shouldn't restrict your fully legal conduct, either.

My DOJ letter is on a DOJ letterhead and is out of their Firearms Licensing and Permits Unit. It is dated Nov 20, 2001. There is a Record Number (5 digits) and then the title of the letter is "ASSAULT WEAPON REGISTRATION CONFIRMATION NOTICE".

Ahh, yes, so this is a true AW registration.

The reason why I and several other folks here jumped on this distinction is because many many folks got screwed up and thought their gun was 'registered' when they purchased it and they did not separately register it as an assault weapon - and ended up with negative consequences.

The DOJ did a tremendously poor job of promulgating AW registration, and did not have the budget to do it effectively. (Ads on the midnight Mexican wrestling channel and a few postcards in a few gunshops do *not* comprise anywhere near adequate public notice.)


The letter goes on to say that the following weapons have been processed by DOJ and that the following (on a list) are approved and registered pursuant to Penal Code section 12285. And after that are the 4 assault rifles that I registered.

Cool. Then these four registered detachable-mag semiauto rfles CAN indeed have all sorts of evil features - flash hiders with pistol grips and folding stocks.

You can indeed thus have true USGI flash hiders on these guns.

HOWEVER.... there may be a rational reason to put CA muzzle brakes on at least one or two of these....

... Do note that AW handling/transport is more restricted than normal rifle usage. AWs can only be transported in CA between specific authorized locations/ destinations (i.e., not a 'truck gun') as per 12280 & 12285 PC, and must be locked and unloaded during transport. (Ordinary rifles & shotguns do not have to be locked during transport and can stay in your vehicle all day long...)

AWs cannot be worked on by CA gunsmiths unless you are continually in their immediate presence. You can't leave for lunch. or leave the gun there overnight - unless, of course, the gunsmith also has a (rare) CA AW permit. Most gunsmiths do not, and the ones that do charge very high prices due to gov't-incurred overhead and marketplace restriction.

Since your registered M1A assault weapons in are "Category III" AWs, they can have AW attributes removed (in particular, flash hider). Once these attributes are removed, they can retain their registration - for later reconfiguration back into AW status - but without the evil feature can be treated as normal rifles. (This is per a variety of DOJ information on their FAQ.)

Enjoy!

rayra
11-21-2006, 12:42 AM
What do you mean when you say registration? Simply filling out a DROS or buying a firearm is not "registration", it is just buying a firearm.

Registering a firearm is only required when it is declared an assault weapon and you send in the paperwork on a separate card to the DOJ and they send you a registration letter back.It's 'registration' when that DROS information goes into a state database and is retained forever, so that the State Gov knows exactly who owns what.
Due to an accident while hiking 3yrs ago (fell off the ruins of a dam and broke my leg) I was helo-evacuated from a rural location where I was legally practicing Open Carry into a city hospital. My dog was held at the nearby ranger station for the missus to pick up. The responding fire dept / paramedics punted and elected to transport my day pack, and other goods, including my firearm, to the hospital. The hospital staff and ER security guard were ok with it but in my groggy dehydrated highly medicated state I insisted the firearm be fully secured under lock and key - which necessitated notification of the hospital security chief to provide said key access - and out came the Universal Playbook, the LASD was called about a 'gun in the hospital' and I was improperly cited for a concealed weapon, my firearm confiscated.
I subsequently successfully fought my case to a complete dismissal and ordered return of my firearm.
To make a long story short, I received a copy of the police report as part of my case prep and discovered that within mere hours of those deputies returning to their station, they had the 'registered' ownership of that pistol, which had been purchased by my father and gifted to me fully 23yrs before and which had never been 'in the system' in any other way since.
THAT is what I and some other folks refer to as 'registration'.


EDIT to add - not meaning / trying to pick a fight, I see teh point you are making re 'Assault Rifle registration' specifics. Your question seemed to be about the meaning of the term 'registration', thus I digressed.

stator
11-21-2006, 2:36 AM
I plan to use the rifle(s) in military rifle matches. Is the SA Inc. muzzle break the only one that I can use? Is the Smith Enterprise (USCG) muzzle break not allowed for such matches?


Muzzle breaks are normally not allowed in service rifle competitions. CMP had to make rule changes to accommodate California's restrictions on the flash hider. This was to allow the SA Inc. muzzle break which is not really a muzzle break. Thus there is really no advantage for using one in competition. It is really a poor flash hider.

The SEI is a true muzzle break. While not the best, it does the job well for the M1A. It would give a small edge in competition and therefore is illegal.

Get yourself a castle nut wrench if you do not have one already. No need to spend money on the fancy versions because you will not use it much. BTW, neither muzzle breaks are the same diameter as the USGI flash hider. So if you have the external bore guide for cleaning, it will not fit.

tenpercentfirearms
11-21-2006, 6:43 AM
To make a long story short, I received a copy of the police report as part of my case prep and discovered that within mere hours of those deputies returning to their station, they had the 'registered' ownership of that pistol, which had been purchased by my father and gifted to me fully 23yrs before and which had never been 'in the system' in any other way since.
So what are you saying? Was it registered before they took it or after they took it?

Long guns are not registered and not kept in any database and long guns are the subject here. Handguns are most certainly kept in a database if you DROSed them in the past few years (I am not exactly sure when it started).