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thewarden2000
04-22-2011, 2:54 PM
I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I have to vent somewhere. I've been looking through firearms websites and auctionsites like gunbroker. I can't believe how many people refuse to sell C&R firearms to residents of this state. I have lost out on several nice rifles because of it. Are people just ignorant or is there some sort of sick predjudice going on here? Am I as bad as our state government simply because I live here? Come on people!:mad::mad::mad:

scorpionking
04-22-2011, 2:59 PM
Why don't you vent your anger towards the fools in Sacramento instead of the innocent out of state vendors?

thewarden2000
04-22-2011, 3:05 PM
Why don't you vent your anger towards the fools in Sacramento instead of the innocent out of state vendors?

Because the rifles I'm looking to purchase are perfectly legal to transfer to a C&R licensee. Don't get me wrong, I've directed plenty of ire at the state legislators, but I would like to think fellow enthusiests would be willing to sell legal firearms to CA citizens regartless of their feelings toward the state.

sfbadger
04-22-2011, 3:07 PM
Many out of state vendor's feel that the CA DOJ Registration gimmick is a precursor to nation wide registration when it comes to shipping firearms and choose not to participate. Others are just plain ignorant of the laws and probably would participate if educated. Then there are those vendors that are willing to play the DOJ's games and they get our money.

We, as citizens of CA, need to get the laws changed. It is up to us and no one else!

oldsmoboat
04-22-2011, 3:09 PM
I see the problem, there is no place called "Kali" that I can find on a map.

InGrAM
04-22-2011, 3:14 PM
I see the problem, there is no place called "Kali" that I can find on a map.

lol, smart ***. But ya your right there is no place called "kali" on the map lol

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 3:41 PM
Some people out there, especially gunnies, just don't like Kali...

Wernher von Browning
04-22-2011, 5:18 PM
Some people out there, especially gunnies, just don't like Kali...

I have a high school buddy who fits in that category.

He lives in Illinois. Go figure.

Saigon1965
04-22-2011, 5:22 PM
Instead of helping out gunners and flood this state with guns - Some folks think it's below them to sell here -

Morality to some is just out there -

GOEX FFF
04-22-2011, 5:32 PM
Most reasons I've heard why most out-of-state anti CA 01 FFL sellers is the CFLC.
They don't want to jump through DOJ hoops any more than they have to.
So they shun ALL of us fellow brethren at arms. They of course have the right to sell to whomever they want or not.....
But it really bites... CA gun owners are down, yet... who you'd think would be our allies, continue to pour salt in our wounds.

Even though the CFLC takes 10 minutes (or less) to complete and is totaly FREE for FFL's to set up with, to some, it's more important that they rip on CA gun owners as being our fault for electing anti's in to SAC then to help us.
To the contrary, since I've always voted pro 2A or the ones that lean furthest to PRO 2A in CA as i'm sure others here have,
yet it's still "our fault". :rolleyes: Really, we're out numbered by anti liberals in this state and out-of-staters don't care to realize this but would rather see the whole state regardless who is here, sink in to the pacific.

Unfortuneatly, with this attitude, they drive the nail into our coffin deeper by succumbing to the anti's wishes...ultimately having the snake eat its own tail.
Who would have thunk, that FFL's and other gunnies in other parts of the country play a huge part in manifesting more gun control for Californians by refusing to sell to here. The anti's LOVE it since it's no work on their part.

Other Pvt non FFL folks who are anti CA, act as sheeple when they don't want to sell a perfectly legal item to CA. I've asked a pvt seller before why he wont ship to CA, his response was "because I've seen others don't".

When I do see a friendly FFL who will sell to CA, I always make it a point even if I'm not bidding or buying from them, to send them a thank you letter for choosing not to alienate CA gun owners. I always have gotten back a courtious (somtimes sympothetic) thoughful reply. And others stating , If it's legal, go for it, if it's not, please don't bid. Which is a fair way to do business, IMO.

Obviously this topic has been beat to death.... but It's still incredibly frustrating that even our own side continues to make us bleed.

sfbadger
04-22-2011, 5:47 PM
Even though some out of state sellers refuse to sell to CA, I have still been able to purchase EVERY gun that I have wanted to add to my collection and I suspect that will always be true, (I hope), but that may just be foolish optimism on my part. And I'm sure the gun-grabbers are clapping their hands with glee at the fact that they are causing so much acrimony between gun enthusiasts, but the fact remains that there are more firearms in CA today than at any other time in this states history and that fact brings an ear-to-ear grin to my face each and every day and I suspect that will always be true! :D

cmichini
04-22-2011, 6:00 PM
I can commiserate, but I can also understand the others' point of view. CA has written such inane, ridiculous laws that will actually NEVER serve the purpose outlined by the bedwetters that wrote them, that by trying to just do what seems logical could land you in some serious trouble. If I was selling online from out of state, I'd likely exclude CA as well. The risk too great for ANY level of reward.

It's sad, but true.

Saigon1965
04-22-2011, 6:04 PM
Really?

So what do you think about us coming up with the OLL - BB - single shot exemption?

I can commiserate, but I can also understand the others' point of view. CA has written such inane, ridiculous laws that will actually NEVER serve the purpose outlined by the bedwetters that wrote them, that by trying to just do what seems logical could land you in some serious trouble. If I was selling online from out of state, I'd likely exclude CA as well. The risk too great for ANY level of reward.

It's sad, but true.

Wernher von Browning
04-22-2011, 6:04 PM
Most reasons I've heard why most out-of-state anti CA 01 FFL sellers is the CFLC.
They don't want to jump through DOJ hoops any more than they have to.
So they shun ALL of us fellow brethren at arms. They of course have the right to sell to whomever they want or not.....

Correct. And by the same token, we have the right not to buy from them, no matter how low their prices. I think this is a topic that needs to be brought to the attention of more Calgunners. Once so informed, I think a boycott -- even if only by part of the customer base -- would, like a 2x4 against a mule's head, serve to get their attention.


Even though the CFLC takes 10 minutes (or less) to complete and is totaly FREE for FFL's to set up with,

They would have to weigh how much their time is worth (10 minute savings?) vs. how many thousands of dollars in lost sales? If they're not made aware of the lost sales, they won't take the 10 minutes.


to some, it's more important that they rip on CA gun owners as being our fault for electing anti's in to SAC then to help us.

Slippery slope, there...What if we applied that standard to retailers in New Yawk ("You guys inflicted Chuckles Schumer on the rest of the country!") or any of a bunch of other decidedly blue states?


Unfortunately, with this attitude, they drive the nail into our coffin deeper by succumbing to the anti's wishes...ultimately having the snake eat its own tail.
Who would have thunk, that FFL's and other gunnies in other parts of the country play a huge part in manifesting more gun control for Californians by refusing to sell to here. The anti's LOVE it since it's no work on their part.


Exactly. If the gun hobby dies, their business dies. If California goes, how long before the other states follow? (Like it or not, California is often a trendsetter).


Other Pvt non FFL folks who are anti CA, act as sheeple when they don't want to sell a perfectly legal item to CA. I've asked a pvt seller before why he wont ship to CA, his response was "because I've seen others don't".

I suspect that's why some retailers won't ship -- they don't know enough, or don't know how to find out, so they just follow what the big guys do.


When I do see a friendly FFL who will sell to CA, I always make it a point even if I'm not bidding or buying from them, to send them a thank you letter for choosing to alienate CA gun owners. I always have gotten back a courtious (somtimes sympothetic) thoughful reply.


I just ordered a not-cheap scope and some other stuff from Midway after a recent thread
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=421314&highlight=midway
about them not shipping ammo to CA (They do, but had a computer glitch on one special-price item). I could have gotten the scope $20 cheaper (ultimately, only $8 cheaper once shipping calculated) elsewhere -- but I wanted to support Midway. And I made sure they knew why they got my business rather than the cheaper source.


Obviously this topic has been beat to death.... but It's still incredibly frustrating that even our own side continues to make us bleed.

Not really beat to death. As I see it, this is just getting started, a lot more needs to be said and done. Authoritative information from a reliable source (on letterhead, from one of our legal team) to retailers of where in CA they can and cannot sell, what they can sell, benefits them as well as us.

To that end, here's some retailers who won't ship.

http://www.fivesevenammo.com/shop/page4.html (I like the part about "Loyo County")

https://www.samcoglobal.com/FAQ.html

Nodda Duma
04-22-2011, 6:18 PM
Uh, just an FYI to keep posters from sounding uninformed, or in case they skimmed instead of read: CFLC does NOT apply to FFL 03, the focus of OP's discussion.

sfbadger
04-22-2011, 6:31 PM
Uh, just an FYI to keep posters from sounding uninformed, or in case they skimmed instead of read: CFLC does NOT apply to FFL 03, the focus of OP's discussion.

Nor does the CFLC apply to antique, (pre-1899), firearms yet I have run into the occasional out of state seller who did not want to ship to me, even though I am an 03 FFL and even though antique firearms require NO FFL at all. There is no excuse to not ship an antique long gun to CA except ignorance or malice!

GDM
04-22-2011, 10:39 PM
I am waiting for some one to make California only gun broker. By CA residents for CA residents. ( maybe allowing gun sales outside of the state).

Yes I know there are the private firearm for sale forum on this site, but trying to think outside the box.

smarter
04-22-2011, 11:20 PM
I usually send them a message with why it is legal for me to purchase the firearm, and the standard cap mags as parts kits w/ supporting info form calguns wiki. All transaction has gone smoothly without a hitch.

sfbadger
04-22-2011, 11:29 PM
I usually send them a message with why it is legal for me to purchase the firearm, and the standard cap mags as parts kits w/ supporting info form calguns wiki. All transaction has gone smoothly without a hitch.

How about when the seller states in the auction description, "No sales to CA"? Still goes smoothly even then?

hornswaggled
04-22-2011, 11:41 PM
Any vendor that won't sell to CA = WW2 France in my eyes. Yes it's a big scary battle, and yes the odds seem overwhelming. But that's simply no excuse to turn your backs on your fellow brethren. We're here in CA fighting the good fight, and we don't need YOU ******* companies making our struggle any more difficult.

BluNorthern
04-23-2011, 8:13 AM
We are free to live here in California under all the firearm restrictions, or leave. They are free to sell to us, or choose not to deal with our firearm restrictions and trying to wade through them (and subsequent paperwork) and not sell to us. I don't necessarily like their position, but I totally understand it, and it's their choice.

cmichini
04-23-2011, 8:19 AM
Really?

So what do you think about us coming up with the OLL - BB - single shot exemption?

Wasn't that was done by people IN CA?

Thinking strickly as if I was a single out-of-state seller, if I had to wade through the mryiad of laws to ensure I comply, I'd be more apt to not sell there than sell there. The guns would likely sell in one of the other 40 or so states that uphold the constitution, so if there's no bottom line, incremental change in MY businiess why even step into an arena where one mis-interpretation of draconian, poorly written laws could land me in big trouble.

The bottom line would be no substantial upside to my business and an astronomical increase in risk to my business and personal freedom.

Just playing devil's advocate of what some out of state sellers are likely thinking. I don't agree with their stances but I can certainly understand what they're (likely) thinking.

Southwest Chuck
04-23-2011, 9:26 AM
I am waiting for some one to make California only gun broker. By CA residents for CA residents. ( maybe allowing gun sales outside of the state). ....



Funny, I had the same idea just before I ran across your post. I even have a name for the auction site: "California Gun Brokerage" . Wish I had the capital for something like this. I'd seriously explore the idea, no bones about it.

Keala
04-23-2011, 11:25 AM
I think it's so sad when the laws are just layered on top of eachother and so confusing that these salespeople just don't want to deal with California anymore. I am wondering what you all think the solution would/could be to that? Of course California will want some laws, but obviously they are so confusing to gun sellers that even if these guns/ammunition are legal, they are still scared to do business here???? WTF!

GDM
04-23-2011, 11:33 AM
I think it's so sad when the laws are just layered on top of eachother and so confusing that these salespeople just don't want to deal with California anymore. I am wondering what you all think the solution would/could be to that? Of course California will want some laws, but obviously they are so confusing to gun sellers that even if these guns/ammunition are legal, they are still scared to do business here???? WTF!


Well to make a short post, 2nd applies to us all period. States need to abide by the part that says "...shall not be infringed".

Wernher von Browning
04-23-2011, 1:06 PM
I think it's so sad when the laws are just layered on top of eachother and so confusing that these salespeople just don't want to deal with California anymore. I am wondering what you all think the solution would/could be to that? Of course California will want some laws, but obviously they are so confusing to gun sellers that even if these guns/ammunition are legal, they are still scared to do business here???? WTF!

There's a difference between retailers not challenging, say, ammunition sale bans in Oakland, Sacramento, San Francisco, Los Angeles... (is mail order banned? arguable; I can see where retailers don't want to argue, just move on and sell elsewhere) and some retailers not selling to certain locations, even though it's perfectly legal. Meanwhile other retailers have no problem with that. The choices of where to sell or not sell seem to be arbitrary.

It looks like some misinformation was spread, and some dealers fell for it without doing their homework.

There is a Federal Government publication that very clearly cites local laws on this topic:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-5/atf-p-5300-5.pdf

It can't be any more clear than that.

Keala
04-23-2011, 1:11 PM
Well to make a short post, 2nd applies to us all period. States need to abide by the part that says "...shall not be infringed".

I agree with that! My dad still lives in LB and I am so glad that he has a gun which he feels very safe with...but thank God he has never had to use it. But I guess I'm just not sure what "infringed" means if you cannot carry a gun at a school or at a court and cannot have a loaded gun with you, etc. If those are all OK, then I just don't understand why it is bad if a community does not want a gun show. Just as a community might not want a porn convention or a cannabis convention, etc. I think that should be their right.

Hank Stamper
04-23-2011, 10:28 PM
It is a bit amusing that if one researches gun law questions for very long, interspersed with the California bashing are many instances of non California gun owners pointing other non Califonia gun owners to go to Calgun pages for answers to legal concerns and info. I guess that is one thing California contributes to gun owners everywhere. Intelligence and knowledge, which frankly I find more of in California than in any Southern "free state".

Perhaps it is an age thing. 25 years ago it was fun going through a 30 round mag in seconds. A bit cheaper too. But, been there done that. Using a BB and a 10 round mag now is not much of a problem. Quality over quanity so to speak. Plus it just prolongs the overall experience of being out with friends and family. Californians constantly whining of the restrictions probably don't help the perception of things outside the state either. I wonder how many of the whiners even know Ronald Reagan supported the Brady Bill 20 years ago? And what governor signed Roberti-Roos,but that is anotehr topic. But I can't wait till everybody who says they are going to move to a "free state'' because of the "neutering" of their guns. Might make for a much better state.

I have been a proud California gun owner who has basically kept my guns in the safe the last 20 plus years as family priorities, were just that. I was totally out of the gun culture. But they have recently seen the light, a couple of non shooter NIB Gold Cups also turned into shooters, a FN 57 and a Kimber Covert. I have discovered a whole new world of gun info on this here internets thing. Not quite like waiting for the new Guns and Ammo to arrive. In fact I was stunned and quite pleased when I found out that the evil military styled weapons were still so readily available in California. If one listened to all those good ol boys who proudly proclaim "we don't sell to California" you would think nary a 5.56 or 7.62 semi-automatic rifle is sold here. I was very pleased when long ago exiled AR Sporters recently turned into a Cal legal SCAR 16. I think many in the rest of the country would be surprised at what the real restrictions are. And as far as the SHTF scenarios, or this freekin zombie thing, well I think there would be enough of a run up to any scenario that the BB's could be removed in plenty of time if one felt such a need.

So I too support those who deal with us poor Californian gun owners.

Scott Connors
04-23-2011, 10:48 PM
I agree with that! My dad still lives in LB and I am so glad that he has a gun which he feels very safe with...but thank God he has never had to use it. But I guess I'm just not sure what "infringed" means if you cannot carry a gun at a school or at a court and cannot have a loaded gun with you, etc. If those are all OK, then I just don't understand why it is bad if a community does not want a gun show. Just as a community might not want a porn convention or a cannabis convention, etc. I think that should be their right.

I think that better analogies would be building a church, synagogue or mosque in an area where there is a hostile majority (like Mormon temples many years ago), or perhaps a political bookstore espousing an unpopular view. The reason why something is called a right is that it is not subject to the tyranny of the majority. Remember, democracy is two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner. :eek:

hornswaggled
04-23-2011, 11:01 PM
And we're free to expose and not buy from those companies.

Wernher von Browning
04-24-2011, 9:07 AM
And we're free to expose and not buy from those companies.

So:

Let's

1) Identify
2) Send polite letter (from one of our lawyers) informing them of their error
3) Give them time to fix it
4) Then put them on a list of Calguns disrecommended dealers (with clear reason why so it doesn't turn into a list to screw your retail competition)
5) Follow through -- publicize that list and ask Calgunners to honor it

sfbadger
04-24-2011, 10:16 AM
So:

Let's

1) Identify
2) Send polite letter (from one of our lawyers) informing them of their error
3) Give them time to fix it
4) Then put them on a list of Calguns disrecommended dealers (with clear reason why so it doesn't turn into a list to screw your retail competition)
5) Follow through -- publicize that list and ask Calgunners to honor it

I suppose this is one way to address our concerns but I seriously feel the real answer to ending our unhappiness with the status quo is in changing the makeup of our representatives in Sacramento. Only then will everyone win!

Wernher von Browning
04-24-2011, 10:21 AM
I suppose this is one way to address our concerns but I seriously feel the real answer to ending our unhappiness with the status quo is in changing the makeup of our representatives in Sacramento. Only then will everyone win!

Good luck with that, pilgrim.

Hasn't been achieved yet. I would bet against it. The trend on the part of the voters is not in our favor -- our neighbors want freebies, and vote for the party that promises them.

(I blame the schools...)

sfbadger
04-24-2011, 10:28 AM
Good luck with that, pilgrim.

Hasn't been achieved yet. I would bet against it. The trend on the part of the voters is not in our favor -- our neighbors want freebies, and vote for the party that promises them.

(I blame the schools...)

While I agree that change is not easy, in the long run it's far more practical than a "feel good" boycott!

( You're right, it is the schools and those damned, over paid union teachers ...) :drool5:

B Strong
04-24-2011, 10:43 AM
Why don't you vent your anger towards the fools in Sacramento instead of the innocent out of state vendors?

Innocent?

They have the right to refuse CA sales, but every dealer that refuses to sell legal firearms and parts to Californians is doing the anti's job for them.

Having had the experience of meeting like-minded Calfornia haters long before Ca. gun laws went screwy, my .02 is our current situation here wrt gun laws is just fodder for anti-California people in general.

Keala
04-24-2011, 12:08 PM
I think that better analogies would be building a church, synagogue or mosque in an area where there is a hostile majority (like Mormon temples many years ago), or perhaps a political bookstore espousing an unpopular view. The reason why something is called a right is that it is not subject to the tyranny of the majority. Remember, democracy is two wolves and a sheep discussing what's for dinner. :eek:

I guess you are right if it is done by the government. I am a little sad that 99% of the people could not want a gun show in their neighborhood (that is not me, btw) and they would have no choice but to have one. The same goes for a strip club, etc. But those are the cornerstone of our freedom, so I guess people will just have to learn to live with it. :confused:

Saigon1965
04-24-2011, 3:58 PM
Glad you brought them out to daylight -

It is a bit amusing that if one researches gun law questions for very long, interspersed with the California bashing are many instances of non California gun owners pointing other non Califonia gun owners to go to Calgun pages for answers to legal concerns and info. I guess that is one thing California contributes to gun owners everywhere. Intelligence and knowledge, which frankly I find more of in California than in any Southern "free state".

Perhaps it is an age thing. 25 years ago it was fun going through a 30 round mag in seconds. A bit cheaper too. But, been there done that. Using a BB and a 10 round mag now is not much of a problem. Quality over quanity so to speak. Plus it just prolongs the overall experience of being out with friends and family. Californians constantly whining of the restrictions probably don't help the perception of things outside the state either. I wonder how many of the whiners even know Ronald Reagan supported the Brady Bill 20 years ago? And what governor signed Roberti-Roos,but that is anotehr topic. But I can't wait till everybody who says they are going to move to a "free state'' because of the "neutering" of their guns. Might make for a much better state.

I have been a proud California gun owner who has basically kept my guns in the safe the last 20 plus years as family priorities, were just that. I was totally out of the gun culture. But they have recently seen the light, a couple of non shooter NIB Gold Cups also turned into shooters, a FN 57 and a Kimber Covert. I have discovered a whole new world of gun info on this here internets thing. Not quite like waiting for the new Guns and Ammo to arrive. In fact I was stunned and quite pleased when I found out that the evil military styled weapons were still so readily available in California. If one listened to all those good ol boys who proudly proclaim "we don't sell to California" you would think nary a 5.56 or 7.62 semi-automatic rifle is sold here. I was very pleased when long ago exiled AR Sporters recently turned into a Cal legal SCAR 16. I think many in the rest of the country would be surprised at what the real restrictions are. And as far as the SHTF scenarios, or this freekin zombie thing, well I think there would be enough of a run up to any scenario that the BB's could be removed in plenty of time if one felt such a need.

So I too support those who deal with us poor Californian gun owners.

hornswaggled
04-24-2011, 6:07 PM
I for one, am down for a feel-good boycott.

Southwest Chuck
04-24-2011, 9:54 PM
It is a bit amusing that if one researches gun law questions for very long, interspersed with the California bashing are many instances of non California gun owners pointing other non Califonia gun owners to go to Calgun pages for answers to legal concerns and info. I guess that is one thing California contributes to gun owners everywhere. Intelligence and knowledge, which frankly I find more of in California than in any Southern "free state".

Perhaps it is an age thing. 25 years ago it was fun going through a 30 round mag in seconds. A bit cheaper too. But, been there done that. Using a BB and a 10 round mag now is not much of a problem. Quality over quanity so to speak. Plus it just prolongs the overall experience of being out with friends and family. Californians constantly whining of the restrictions probably don't help the perception of things outside the state either. I wonder how many of the whiners even know Ronald Reagan supported the Brady Bill 20 years ago? And what governor signed Roberti-Roos,but that is anotehr topic. But I can't wait till everybody who says they are going to move to a "free state'' because of the "neutering" of their guns. Might make for a much better state.

I have been a proud California gun owner who has basically kept my guns in the safe the last 20 plus years as family priorities, were just that. I was totally out of the gun culture. But they have recently seen the light, a couple of non shooter NIB Gold Cups also turned into shooters, a FN 57 and a Kimber Covert. I have discovered a whole new world of gun info on this here internets thing. Not quite like waiting for the new Guns and Ammo to arrive. In fact I was stunned and quite pleased when I found out that the evil military styled weapons were still so readily available in California. If one listened to all those good ol boys who proudly proclaim "we don't sell to California" you would think nary a 5.56 or 7.62 semi-automatic rifle is sold here. I was very pleased when long ago exiled AR Sporters recently turned into a Cal legal SCAR 16. I think many in the rest of the country would be surprised at what the real restrictions are. And as far as the SHTF scenarios, or this freekin zombie thing, well I think there would be enough of a run up to any scenario that the BB's could be removed in plenty of time if one felt such a need.

So I too support those who deal with us poor Californian gun owners.

I'll chime in here and say "Thanks" from the Calguns collective.

Welcome to Calguns, Hank! :thumbsup:

thewarden2000
04-26-2011, 1:17 PM
It appears I got more of a response than I expected, and I'm glad to see it. While I agree the big problem is the people in Sacramental, I also feel that we need vendors out side of our state to be more supportive. This problem needs to be attacked on two fronts. The big battle is with our state, and the second battle is the education of those whe won't sell to us. The old saying stands in this case: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem". So instead of just discussing it, is there a way for us to start some sort of educational campaign aimed at the large retailers that shun us?

wash
04-26-2011, 1:31 PM
I don't like Tuggs either, but they usually strangle and it's hard to keep them from getting rope.

sfbadger
04-26-2011, 1:55 PM
So instead of just discussing it, is there a way for us to start some sort of educational campaign aimed at the large retailers that shun us?

I would think the ideal solution for educating the offending retailer's is a face-to-face dialogue, as impractical as that may be.