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Heat54
04-22-2011, 7:57 AM
Hey to all of you from your newest member.

I just bought a GSG 522 (CA legal) and have been drooling over the 110 round mag for the gun. I know large capacity mags apply to centerfires but how about rimfires? I don't read legaleze well so I don't know if the regs refer to 22's as well. I would love the mag but would hate a year in the pokey as a felon. I have seen where you can have them and even lend them on the range in your presence but lots of cops go to my range and I am not looking for trouble. What's the current thinking on this? Thanks. :cool:

XDRoX
04-22-2011, 8:03 AM
22 hi-cap mags are also illegal to buy or import in CA. You can only legally own one if you did prior to the ban.

Sorry dude.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 8:08 AM
The 10 round magazine limit applies to rimfires as well (tube-fed rimfires are the one exception.

Its illegal to buy, borrow, trade or import one.

My personal recommendation would be to avoid it, especially as its for a new gun.

jimbos44
04-22-2011, 8:08 AM
rebuild kits are also legal to own, but once you put them together they are no longer legal

morrcarr67
04-22-2011, 8:38 AM
rebuild kits are also legal to own, but once you put them together they are no longer legal

Well kinda of. They are legal to assemble while you and them are in a state where they are legal to have. Once you and them come back to California they must be disassembled again.

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 8:46 AM
The 10 round magazine limit applies to rimfires as well (tube-fed rimfires are the one exception.

Its illegal to buy, borrow, trade or import one.

My personal recommendation would be to avoid it, especially as its for a new gun.

Umm, no.
PC 12020(a)
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

Note the difference between what you said and what the PC actually says.

Well kinda of. They are legal to assemble while you and them are in a state where they are legal to have. Once you and them come back to California they must be disassembled again.

You mean before you come back to CA. Taking them apart after coming back would be importing.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 9:18 AM
Umm, no.
PC 12020(a)
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

Note the difference between what you said and what the PC actually says.


Right...so its currently illegal to buy/sell/trade/lend/borrow/import. Please note the difference for me :)

Izzy43
04-22-2011, 9:43 AM
We live in a state where they are illegal. Trying to work around the law, especially with a firearm that was only manufactured post-ban is asking for trouble for yourself and giving ammunition to the anti-gun folks to pass a law allowing only single shot rubber-band guns.

I was out in the forest shooting (legal area) and was visited by an LEO to check out my firearms to determine that I only had legal items. You just never know when or where you might be checked. I was 5 miles up into a canyon on a dirt road. Not worth the risk.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 9:43 AM
Right...I never said owning one was illegal nor did I say rebuild kits are illegal.

I stand by my original statement.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 9:46 AM
We live in a state where they are illegal. Trying to work around the law, especially with a firearm that was only manufactured post-ban is asking for trouble for yourself and giving ammunition to the anti-gun folks to pass a law allowing only single shot rubber-band guns.

I was out in the forest shooting (legal area) and was visited by an LEO to check out my firearms to determine that I only had legal items. You just never know when or where you might be checked. I was 5 miles up into a canyon on a dirt road. Not worth the risk.

Amen. I have had LEO randomly inspect guns at a public range also. Just buy yourself a bunch of legal magazines and get handy at changing them out fast :)

XDRoX
04-22-2011, 9:50 AM
You guys are saying that an LEO checked you for hi-cap mags?

What would he have done if you had one? There is no law against owning, possession, or using. He couldn't have done anything. I take my hi-cap mags to the range all the time. Never been questioned and certainly not afraid of being so.

If ever harassed, just ask, "What law am I breaking officer?"

Mongoblack23
04-22-2011, 10:09 AM
Right...I never said owning one was illegal nor did I say rebuild kits are illegal.

I stand by my original statement.

itnot illegal to buy them, just to posses them built.

Mongoblack23
04-22-2011, 10:11 AM
You guys are saying that an LEO checked you for hi-cap mags?

What would he have done if you had one? There is no law against owning, possession, or using. He couldn't have done anything. I take my hi-cap mags to the range all the time. Never been questioned and certainly not afraid of being so.

If ever harassed, just ask, "What law am I breaking officer?"

that would work, unless the gun in question wasnt even produced till after 2000....... (excluding of course firearms built after 2000 that uses mags produced before.)


to the OP, sorry your SOL while your livin here....

MaHoTex
04-22-2011, 10:22 AM
Right...so its currently illegal to buy/sell/trade/lend/borrow/import. Please note the difference for me :)

Borrow does not = lend.

Izzy43
04-22-2011, 12:28 PM
Amen. I have had LEO randomly inspect guns at a public range also. Just buy yourself a bunch of legal magazines and get handy at changing them out fast :)

Absolutely Correct-a-mundo. If one wants those ammo wasting mags one can move to Arizona.:taz::taz::taz:

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 1:37 PM
Right...so its currently illegal to buy/sell/trade/lend/borrow/import. Please note the difference for me :)
Just now you listed

Buy
Sell
Trade
Lend
Borrow
Import

Again, you are listing things clearly not in the PC. I pasted PC 12020(a)(2) into my post, read what it lists and then compare to you list.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 1:46 PM
Yes, technically half of a lending transaction and half of a selling transaction is legal...so what? The transaction itself is rendered illegal by the selling/lending component and prevents legally aquiring said magazine.

You are welcome to argue technicalities until the end of time; the simple fact is that the answer to the OP's question is...no, you can not legally aquire a 110 round magazine for your GSG 522. Nuff said.

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 1:50 PM
I'm not arguing anything with you, I'm pointing out that your reasons why he can't get the magazine do not match what the law says(and for some reason you still don't seem to acknowledge it). The law is black and white on this, and yet you tell people differently. If you are telling people that activities are illegal(when they clearly aren't based on the PC that anyone can look up) then you are wrong and spreading FUD.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 2:05 PM
Just a case of semantics methinks.

When I say it is illegal to buy one, what I mean is that since the law forbids the offering of sale or exposing for sale of said item, you can not conduct a fully legal transaction to buy one. The same logic goes for lending/borrowing.

Also, any lawyer will tell you laws are rarely if ever black & white.

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 2:09 PM
It is not semantics, the law specifies what is illegal, you keep inserting things into your list that are not illegal. Heck, there are even exemptions for people allowed to sell large capacity magazines and buying from those people would definitely NOT be illegal.
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php
2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

Anything you keep adding to the list is FUD.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 2:22 PM
Ok since logic is failing and for some reason today I have the patience to argue with a robot, let's try a different tact:

Would you please provide a completely legal method for OP to aquire his 110 round magazines for his new GSG 522 in the lovely state of CA? Lets assume that OP is not a member of the military or law enforcement to keep it fair :)

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 2:39 PM
The 10 round magazine limit applies to rimfires as well (tube-fed rimfires are the one exception.

Its illegal to buy, borrow, trade or import one.

My personal recommendation would be to avoid it, especially as its for a new gun.
Wrong.
PC12020(a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.
"Buy, borrow, trade" are not listed as specific crimes.

It would be illegal for someone to sell, lend, or give you one (except under specific exemptions), and it is true that "purchase/borrow" could expose you to conspiracy charges....

But lacking evidence of conspiracy, the only crimes that someone in possession of a high cap could be charged with would be manufacture or importation, and the burden of proof is on the state.

They can't just tell the jury "Well, the defendant is 24 years old and his parents are hardcore anti-gun people, so he could not possibly have possessed the magazine prior to Jan 1, 2000"

They have to be able to PROVE exactly when and how the actual crime took place.

And "when" becomes important because there is a 3 year statute of limitations.
There is an important distinction though....
PC12020(b)(23) The importation of a large-capacity magazine by a person who lawfully possessed the large-capacity magazine in the state prior to January 1, 2000, lawfully took it out of the state, and is returning to the state with the large-capacity magazine previously lawfully possessed in the state.
If you possessed a magazine in California in 1995 and took it out of state, you are exempt from PC12020(a)(2) in re-importing it.
If Uncle Joe visited California in 1995 and brought his high-caps with him, he can today legally bring them back. The PC says nothing about residency... mere possession inside of California prior to 1995 qualifies for the exemption.

BUT....
If you illegally imported a magazine on April 21 2008, you are immune from prosecution today because the 36 month statute of limitations has expired. However, the PC12020(b)(23) exemption does not apply, so that magazine is doomed to forever remain within California. Taking it out of state and bringing it back home triggers a restart of the 36 months on a fresh importation violation.

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 2:49 PM
We live in a state where they are illegal. Trying to work around the law, especially with a firearm that was only manufactured post-ban
Wrong again.

"They" are not "illegal" in California.

Even if the gun was manufactured after the ban, it is still not illegal to possess and use magazines that you owned prior to the ban.
ALL 9mm glock mags are compatible (except the G26 mags won't fit the standard frame models). If you have a pre-ban 33rd Glock magazine, you can legally use it in a new Gen-4 Glock.

Likewise, if I sell one of my featureless AR builds to my friend, he can legally use his 30rd USGI magazines in it.

Also, even if the magazine has date codes stamped on it, it doesn't matter. Legally-possessed pre-ban magazines can be repaired with modern replacement parts.
Bodies that say "FOR LE USE ONLY" are today irrelevant. They are a relic of the federal ban which sunset in 2004. Anyone can own those mag bodies now, and they can be used to rebuild an older magazine today.
Amen. I have had LEO randomly inspect guns at a public range also.
Under what authority? Did they have a warrant? They have no RS or PC to inspect a normal handgun, even if you are shooting high caps, unless they can articulate reasonable suspicion that the gun is stolen or was used in or is about to be used in the commission of a crime.

My wife has three 15rd magazines for her 92FS. She just got the gun 2 months ago, but the mags were given to us by a cop buddy about 15 years ago.

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 2:56 PM
itnot illegal to buy them, just to posses them built.
No, it is illegal to assemble them.
It is not illegal to possess them assembled.

It would be illegal to take them out of state and bring them back in assembled (2nd crime, importation of a magazine not possessed prior to Jan 1, 2000).

The crime is a one-time occurrence. Possession is not a crime.

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 2:59 PM
no, you can not legally aquire a 110 round magazine for your GSG 522. Nuff said.
There is at least one way to do so.....
PC12020(b)(27) The sale of, giving of, lending of, importation into this state of, or purchase of, any large-capacity magazine, to or by entities that operate armored vehicle businesses pursuant to the laws of this state.
Ok since logic is failing and for some reason today I have the patience to argue with a robot, let's try a different tact:

Would you please provide a completely legal method for OP to aquire his 110 round magazines for his new GSG 522 in the lovely state of CA? Lets assume that OP is not a member of the military or law enforcement to keep it fair http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/smilies/smile.gif
See above ;)

Izzy43
04-22-2011, 3:05 PM
Wrong again.

"They" are not "illegal" in California.

Even if the gun was manufactured after the ban, it is still not illegal to possess and use magazines that you owned prior to the ban.
ALL 9mm glock mags are compatible (except the G26 mags won't fit the standard frame models). If you have a pre-ban 33rd Glock magazine, you can legally use it in a new Gen-4 Glock.

Likewise, if I sell one of my featureless AR builds to my friend, he can legally use his 30rd USGI magazines in it.

Also, even if the magazine has date codes stamped on it, it doesn't matter. Legally-possessed pre-ban magazines can be repaired with modern replacement parts.
Bodies that say "FOR LE USE ONLY" are today irrelevant. They are a relic of the federal ban which sunset in 2004. Anyone can own those mag bodies now, and they can be used to rebuild an older magazine today.

Under what authority? Did they have a warrant? They have no RS or PC to inspect a normal handgun, even if you are shooting high caps, unless they can articulate reasonable suspicion that the gun is stolen or was used in or is about to be used in the commission of a crime.

My wife has three 15rd magazines for her 92FS. She just got the gun 2 months ago, but the mags were given to us by a cop buddy about 15 years ago.

OK, I don't want to be spreading FUD around so back to the OP's original question. HI-Capacity Magazine (more than 10 rounds)for a GSG-522. Lets focus on answering his question if that's OK.

First question: Did High Capacity magazines exist for this firearm prior to the Ban?

Second: When was the first date that a person could purchase a GSG-522 in California?

Third: Are there now Hi-Capacity magazines available in kit form, repair form or complete off the shelf that are legal in California that a person can assemble or purcase for use in that weapon in California (not just posses them)?

My previous posts were addressing the OP's question about his particular firearm so what misinformation did I provide about his GSG-522 and Hi Capacity magazines? Thanks.

Edit: Forgot one question. When was the 110 round magazine first available?

fishnbeer
04-22-2011, 3:07 PM
so what is the exact definition of a "tube-fed" magazine and how can i make one to fit my rifle??????

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 3:18 PM
OK, I don't want to be spreading FUD around so back to the OP's original question. HI-Capacity Magazine (more than 10 rounds)for a GSG-522. Lets focus on answering his question if that's OK.

First question: Did High Capacity magazines exist for this firearm prior to the Ban?

Second: When was the first date that a person could purchase a GSG-522 in California?

Third: Are there now Hi-Capacity magazines available in kit form, repair form or complete off the shelf that are legal in California that a person can assemble or purcase for use in that weapon in California (not just posses them)?

My previous posts were addressing the OP's question about his particular firearm so what misinformation did I provide about his GSG-522 and Hi Capacity magazines? Thanks.

Because of the exemptions on PC12020, he may be able to legally buy large capacity magazines. Additionally if he picks up someone's broken mag at the range and fixes it, that's not manufacturing or importing. Also, the date the firearm and it's magazines existed in relation to the date of the ban isn't relevant since what matters is the 3 year statute of limitations and the burden of proof being on the state that you manufactured, imported, etc.

So it's not likely that the OP will ever legally acquire a large capacity magazine for his GSG, but it is not impossible.

Then there's this: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=375349

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 3:36 PM
so what is the exact definition of a "tube-fed" magazine and how can i make one to fit my rifle??????
That has been looked into, but it seems that it is not workable.

"Tube fed" would be something similar to a shotgun (which are not exempt). They are extremely common on lever-action rifles (which are exempt), and there are quite a few .22lr as well (which are exempt).

For the most part, the tube magazine would be considered "fixed" and is an integral, functional part of the gun.

The odd thing is that, unlike AW laws, there is no blanket exemption for rimfire.... only for .22. .17 is not exempt :confused:
PC12020(b)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action firearm.

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 3:49 PM
As neat as it would be, due to the engineering involved I doubt we're ever going to see a detachable tube fed .22(although it would definitely be neat since I don't recall ever seeing anything that specifies a tubular magazine as being non-detachable).

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 3:51 PM
First question: Did High Capacity magazines exist for this firearm prior to the Ban?
===========
Second: When was the first date that a person could purchase a GSG-522 in California?
===========
Forgot one question. When was the 110 round magazine first available?
Certainly after the ban.
Third: Are there now Hi-Capacity magazines available in kit form, repair form or complete off the shelf that are legal in California that a person can assemble or purcase for use in that weapon in California (not just posses them)?
Drop "possess" from your vocabulary. Possession is not illegal under any circumstances.
That out of the way: Yes, rebuild kits are available for practically any gun made. It would be 100% legal for the OP to purchase a GSG rebuild kit and keep it in parts while in California.
He can then travel to visit friends in AZ or NV, assemble the kit, use it, then disassemble it prior to bringing it back into California.
My previous posts were addressing the OP's question about his particular firearm so what misinformation did I provide about his GSG-522 and Hi Capacity magazines? Thanks.
As posted above, PC12020(b) has a list of 32 exemptions to PC12020(a). Some exemptions apply to magazines, some do not.
The most obvious is the armored car company owner exemption.
Yes, it is 100% legal for the owner of an armored car company to import and sell anyone a high cap.
If one were to "go into business" doing so, I'm sure the legislature would act quickly to close the loophole.

Most interesting is PC12020(b)(21)
This appears to be an exemption for ANY California FFL (gun shop). It does not allow for importation, but it does allow for "sale by or to"
Good luck finding an FFL willing to stick his neck out.

Kryptyde
04-22-2011, 3:58 PM
So it's not likely that the OP will ever legally acquire a large capacity magazine for his GSG, but it is not impossible.

Exactly. We are just coming at this from different points of view. Theres the technical legal side of the argument (very nicely described, thanks) and the practical side.

While I appreciate the research and understand the reasons for correcting my and other's statements, I think you do have to take the context of the casual question being posed into account. While its great that possession itself is has not (yet at least) been made illegal and thus there may be legal means (however unlikely) to obtain the item, its really not reasonable to expect to do so. In turn I will avoid using the word 'illegal' at all cost in further postings as even dead horses should never have to be beaten so brutally ;)

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 4:12 PM
The horse is not dead... and far from possession is "not yet" illegal.

The opposite is the case, the tide is turning, even in California.

Gene Hoffman has gone through the initial steps, and is well on his way to getting PC12020(a)(2) thrown out.

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 4:57 PM
The horse is not dead... and far from possession is "not yet" illegal.

The opposite is the case, the tide is turning, even in California.

Gene Hoffman has gone through the initial steps, and is well on his way to getting PC12020(a)(2) thrown out.

Yeah, I linked to the thread where Gene discussed it for a bit(although I'm not about to sift through it and find his posts) but there is indeed work being done by people to get it changed.

The reason why issues like this need to be spelled out and explained to people instead of "Well, it's basically illegal" is to stop the FUD. Look at knife laws and how many people seriously believe that cops can confiscate knives where the blade is longer than the palm of their hand or some other silly idiotic garbage. Additionally there's the matter of idiot workers at gun shops, idiots at the range etc. wanting to tell people they're doing things that are illegal because "some guy told me it's illegal so it must be" when the reality behind whatever it is you're doing is none of their business.

tempdrummer
04-22-2011, 5:17 PM
For the record the 110 round mag didn't exist until last year so "pre ban" mags don't exist.

For the OP, the 10 round mag law applies to both centerfire AND rimfire with the exception of all the confusing reasons listed above. :D

classical_buff
04-22-2011, 5:39 PM
What if he destroyed one of pre-ban 10/22 magazine and
use this 110 rounders as a rebuild kit? This way, he didn't make a "new" magazine and merely repaired one. Granted, the capacity of the magazine went from 25-round to 110-round. He started out with one pre-ban magazine and ended up with only one.

Merc1138
04-22-2011, 5:48 PM
What if he destroyed one of pre-ban 10/22 magazine and
use this 110 rounders as a rebuild kit? This way, he didn't make a "new" magazine and merely repaired one. Granted, the capacity of the magazine went from 25-round to 110-round. He started out with one pre-ban magazine and ended up with only one.

The magazine still needs to be able to operate in the original firearm to be a "rebuild". You can't take apart a 30 round AK mag and assemble a 30 round AR pmag. Unless that 110 round GSG mag can fit in a 10/22, that'd be a no.

Now if he took his legally acquired(wtf do people keep insisting that it needs to be pre-ban... I thought we explained this already) large capacity 10/22 magazine, and then rebuilt it as a 110 rounder, it'd probably be fine(although I wouldn't personally start rebuilding GI m16 mags as beta mags).

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 6:31 PM
Now if he took his legally acquired(wtf do people keep insisting that it needs to be pre-ban... I thought we explained this already) large capacity 10/22 magazine, and then rebuilt it as a 110 rounder, it'd probably be fine(although I wouldn't personally start rebuilding GI m16 mags as beta mags).
Agreed. Comments from Bill and Gene indicate that, while it is not illegal to repair an 11rd magazine as a 75rd unit, there needs to be a direct path to the repair. Some who are more conservative believe that the mag must remain functional during the rebuild as each single part is replaced (IOTW, the original spring must function in the new body :confused: ), others believe that at least one part needs to be common (typically the follower or floorplate).
Regardless, the Beta would certainly be a no-go, as there are no compatible parts.

classical_buff
04-22-2011, 8:33 PM
Unless that 110 round GSG mag can fit in a 10/22, that'd be a no.

Funny you should mention this, there is supposed to an adapter that will allow the 110-round drum to be compatible with Ruger 10/22.

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 8:39 PM
Funny you should mention this, there is supposed to an adapter that will allow the 110-round drum to be compatible with Ruger 10/22.
I wouldn't gamble that's good enough.

An adapter to allow a 10/22 drum to work in the GSG? Maybe, though you have the potential problem of mounting the adapter being considered "assembly"

classical_buff
04-22-2011, 9:08 PM
I wouldn't gamble that's good enough.

An adapter to allow a 10/22 drum to work in the GSG? Maybe, though you have the potential problem of mounting the adapter being considered "assembly"

You are such a party pooper! :D