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View Full Version : Unlawful to PURCHASE highcap


Tripper
04-22-2011, 6:28 AM
I know it's always been said in the discussions here that "purchase" is not illegal, but CA has it that purchase is illegal

NotEnufGarage
04-22-2011, 6:31 AM
Can you cite the PC?

Tripper
04-22-2011, 6:32 AM
In black and white by the ag yes

HowardW56
04-22-2011, 6:35 AM
In black and white by the ag yes

Where did you read that??

JeepFreak
04-22-2011, 6:36 AM
Did you request to buy a high cap mag or did you honestly think you were getting a 10rd or less mag?

If you sought out the high cap mag, I believe you could be charged with PC182 (Conspiracy).

Billy

Tripper
04-22-2011, 6:42 AM
I was actually looking fit something else, and while browsing, had a double take on this
The words "purchase of"
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

Tripper
04-22-2011, 6:45 AM
Citing the ag posting of the penal code

What posting of a penal code is a citizen expected to abide by

Baconator
04-22-2011, 7:09 AM
I was actually looking fit something else, and while browsing, had a double take on this
The words "purchase of"
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

Citing the ag posting of the penal code

What posting of a penal code is a citizen expected to abide by

well I searched "purchase of" in the PC and only came up with the people who are allowed to purchase, which tells those who are allowed to sell them who they can sell them to (if there is a law against sale, there must be a class of people who can be sold to). Laws are a negative thing typically, telling us what we cannot do not what we can. In the paragraph about the little people people (those who aren't specially chosen) it doesn't say "purchase" as one of the things we are not allowed to do. Again, please post the exact PC that says it is illegal to buy.

QQQ
04-22-2011, 7:12 AM
I quote the site:"(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law."

Says nothing about purchase. Please read more carefully in the future.

Barabas
04-22-2011, 7:18 AM
I was actually looking fit something else, and while browsing, had a double take on this
The words "purchase of"
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

This is the part you need to re-read:
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
...
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine.

Tripper
04-22-2011, 7:38 AM
It started at e19 I think, on phone now so it won't show the page, can't cut paste

Tripper
04-22-2011, 7:42 AM
I think I see where I misread
Looks like my phone whited out about half the page

Tripper
04-22-2011, 7:42 AM
How do I nix this thread

GOEX FFF
04-22-2011, 7:58 AM
I think Tripper is trippin'. :p ;)

Baconator
04-22-2011, 8:24 AM
How do I nix this thread

Don't worry about it. We all have thought we found something new here at least once.

Librarian
04-22-2011, 11:34 AM
It's OK to post a re-reading - that's how we find new and interesting ways to obey the laws.

But the AG's site has a mis-statement that says purchase is not legal, while that is not supported by PC.

OTOH, it is PC that selling or offering to sell to non exempt persons is prohibited; it's pretty tough to BUY in CA when it is not legal to SELL.

See the wiki - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions

Cokebottle
04-22-2011, 11:51 AM
I was actually looking fit something else, and while browsing, had a double take on this
The words "purchase of"
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12020.php
Searching for "purchase of" (or by) does not appear in PC12020(a)(1) or (a)(2), which describe the actual criminal act.
PC12020(b) is full of "purchase of/by" but it doesn't matter, as PC12020(b) is a list of exemptions to PC12020(a)

Keep in mind that these laws are not written by one person, nor is the final enacted law the same as the initial drafts.

The initial draft(s) of PC12020(a)(2) undoubtedly prohibited purchase.
The exemptions listed in PC12020(b) were then drafted.

Somewhere along the line, either in committee, or in the back and forth between the assembly and the senate, the words "purchase of" (and possibly even "possession of" were apparently stricken from PC12020(a)(1) and PC12020(a)(2), but they were not stricken from the exemptions listed in PC12020(b).


If you are arrested, the officer must book you and the DA must charge you on a specific violation of the PC. In this case, the violations of law are all listed in the first two paragraphs, PC12020(a)(1) and PC12020(a)(2).
Nothing listed in PC12020(b) may be used to charge someone with a crime.

Smokeybehr
04-22-2011, 12:07 PM
Searching for "purchase of" (or by) does not appear in PC12020(a)(1) or (a)(2), which describe the actual criminal act.
PC12020(b) is full of "purchase of/by" but it doesn't matter, as PC12020(b) is a list of exemptions to PC12020(a)

Keep in mind that these laws are not written by one person, nor is the final enacted law the same as the initial drafts.

The initial draft(s) of PC12020(a)(2) undoubtedly prohibited purchase.
The exemptions listed in PC12020(b) were then drafted.

Somewhere along the line, either in committee, or in the back and forth between the assembly and the senate, the words "purchase of" (and possibly even "possession of" were apparently stricken from PC12020(a)(1) and PC12020(a)(2), but they were not stricken from the exemptions listed in PC12020(b).


If you are arrested, the officer must book you and the DA must charge you on a specific violation of the PC. In this case, the violations of law are all listed in the first two paragraphs, PC12020(a)(1) and PC12020(a)(2).
Nothing listed in PC12020(b) may be used to charge someone with a crime.

QFTT.

/thread

RickD427
04-22-2011, 1:28 PM
All,

It's still possible to go to jail for Purchasing a large-capacity magazine.

Never underestimate the ability of California law to confuse, contradict, and lend itself to twisted application.

Penal Code Section 12020(a) (2) is most often cited to show that simple possession of, and the purchase of, large-capacity magazines are not prohibited. Here's the exact text of the section:

"Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity magazine."
Reading just those words, I'd have conclude, just as many previous posters have concluded, that section does not prohibit the purchase, or possession of, large-capacity magazines.

But the California Penal Code has a lot more words in it, and those words cannot be ignored. Here some more words from Penal Code Section 31:

"All persons concerned in the commission of a crime, whether it
be felony or misdemeanor, and whether they directly commit the act
constituting the offense, or aid and abet in its commission, or, not
being present, have advised and encouraged its commission, and all
persons counseling, advising, or encouraging children under the age
of fourteen years, or persons who are mentally incapacitated, to
commit any crime, or who, by fraud, contrivance, or force, occasion
the drunkenness of another for the purpose of causing him to commit
any crime, or who, by threats, menaces, command, or coercion, compel
another to commit any crime, are principals in any crime so
committed."

Consider these sections together and you can make the argument that a person who purchases a large-capacity magazine from a person selling the magazine aids the seller in selling the magazine, because without a buyer, there would be no sale.

Not trying to be a spoiler here, just trying to keeps folks out of trouble. Never underestimate the creativity of a filing D.A. in a political environment.

dustoff31
04-22-2011, 4:46 PM
Consider these sections together and you can make the argument that a person who purchases a large-capacity magazine from a person selling the magazine aids the seller in selling the magazine, because without a buyer, there would be no sale.

Not trying to be a spoiler here, just trying to keeps folks out of trouble. Never underestimate the creativity of a filing D.A. in a political environment.

You're right. How can one purchase something without being a party the sale?

I believe that Gene or BWeiss has mentioned this before.

Riodog
04-22-2011, 6:35 PM
I quote the site:"(2) The manufacture, possession, transportation or sale of short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles when authorized by the Department of Justice pursuant to Article 6 (commencing with Section 12095) of this chapter and not in violation of federal law."

Says nothing about purchase. Please read more carefully in the future.

I thought this thread was about magazines? DAH!
Rio #1

bohoki
04-22-2011, 7:56 PM
you are allowed to purchase from someone legally allowed to sell

such as the armored car buisness exemption