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View Full Version : Mexico Evaluating Whether to Sue U.S. Firearms Manufacturers


Excelsior
04-21-2011, 9:48 PM
Mexico is now looking into the possibility of suing US firearms makers in an attempt to stem the flow of arms to the south:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20056210-10391695.html

I wonder if they can sue F-Troop while they are at it? ;)

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 9:49 PM
"...On November 5, 2010 President Felipe Calderon expressed his frustration to CBS News correspondent Peter Greenberg: 'We seized more than 90,000 weapons...I am talking like 50,000 assault weapons, AR-15 machine guns, more than 8,000 grenades and almost 10 million bullets. Amazing figures and according to all those cases, the ones we are able to track, most of these are American weapons.'"

CalBear
04-21-2011, 9:49 PM
We should sue Mexico for every penny illegal aliens have cost us. It's pretty ridiculous how much the current regime down there enjoys blaming the US for every one of its problems.

Baconator
04-21-2011, 9:50 PM
We should drop a few bombs down there so they know what American weapons look like.

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 9:51 PM
it'll work as well as them sueing Arizona

CalBear
04-21-2011, 9:51 PM
"...On November 5, 2010 President Felipe Calderon expressed his frustration to CBS News correspondent Peter Greenberg: 'We seized more than 90,000 weapons...I am talking like 50,000 assault weapons, AR-15 machine guns, more than 8,000 grenades and almost 10 million bullets. Amazing figures and according to all those cases, the ones we are able to track, most of these are American weapons.'"
Yeah the ones they were able to track. You know, the ones that had serial numbers in some American DROS system or similar. Not the ones that came from black markets and have no traceable origins. MGs and grenades? Definitely sounds like Joe's Gun shop down in Texarkana. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ojisan
04-21-2011, 9:53 PM
I guess we need to build that border fence after all.
That'll fix the problems of things going south.

johndoe2150
04-21-2011, 9:58 PM
Sue the batfe for allowing fast and furious and operation gunrunner to happen in the first place

HUTCH 7.62
04-21-2011, 10:01 PM
^ agreed why not go after the ATF..

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:03 PM
Yeah the ones they were able to track. You know, the ones that had serial numbers in some American DROS system or similar. Not the ones that came from black markets and have no traceable origins. MGs and grenades? Definitely sounds like Joe's Gun shop down in Texarkana. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Based on the way that was worded, the might only have been able to trace 3 of 90,000 guns and 2 of the 3 (or "most") came from the States.

Gotta watch that language...

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:06 PM
it'll work as well as them sueing Arizona
State government versus private companies. Apples and oranges. Could well be different outcomes.

I wonder where mexico would sue? Would Ruger for instance be sued in Connecticut (their headquarters locations), Arizona (their largest manufacturing operation) or would it be in US Federal court?

Wherryj
04-21-2011, 10:07 PM
Mexico is now looking into the possibility of suing US firearms makers in an attempt to stem the flow of arms to the south:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20056210-10391695.html

I wonder if they can sue F-Troop while they are at it? ;)

So, if Mexico decides to file these suits, which lawyer is willing to file the suits against the Mexican government for allowing tons of drugs, hundreds of thousands of their citizens to roam across their pourous border and ruthless murdering drug cartels that they are exporting to the US?

Any takers? I suspect that the NRA and the "US firearms makers" might be willing to throw in a few bucks.

CalBear
04-21-2011, 10:08 PM
Based on the way that was worded, the might only have been able to trace 3 of 90,000 guns and 2 of the 3 (or "most") came from the States.

Gotta watch that language...
Same scam with the ridiculous 90% figure that has finally disappeared. It was always 90% of firearms [they bothered to and were able to trace back to a source]. Except that last part in brackets was usually conveniently omitted.

Most of these weapons are, predictably not traceable. Most Mexican weapons come from black markets in Central America. Most of these cartels want MGs and grenades, not AR-15s. There's no way you can blame our gun mfgs for their problems.

And one thing I don't get: why is their border defense our problem? They aren't apologizing for allowing so many illegals and drugs to pass through their Northern border. If they don't care about that, then why should we care if a few guns pass through our Southern border?

Dreaded Claymore
04-21-2011, 10:09 PM
Richard Feldman, President of the Independent Firearms Association and former gun industry association executive said: "Maybe we should be suing the Mexican government for their failure to prevent drugs from coming into our country."

Bring it on, Mexico. Seriously. :nopity:

Apocalypsenerd
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
Can governments sue private entities? Could a private entity sue Mexico? how does all of that work?

Wherryj
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
"...On November 5, 2010 President Felipe Calderon expressed his frustration to CBS News correspondent Peter Greenberg: 'We seized more than 90,000 weapons...I am talking like 50,000 assault weapons, AR-15 machine guns, more than 8,000 grenades and almost 10 million bullets. Amazing figures and according to all those cases, the ones we are able to track, most of these are American weapons.'"

Well, if the Mexican government states that it has 8,000 grenades obtained from civilian sources, I'd like to put in my claim for the 5,000 legal grenades that I had stolen from my safe last year. It would be nice if they'd return them forthwith.

:rolleyes:

Vladimir
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
We should sue Mexico for every penny illegal aliens have cost us. It's pretty ridiculous how much the current regime down there enjoys blaming the US for every one of its problems.

+1 There ya go.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:13 PM
Same scam with the ridiculous 90% figure that has finally disappeared. It was always 90% of firearms [they bothered to and were able to trace back to a source]. Except that last part in brackets was usually conveniently omitted.

Most of these weapons are, predictably not traceable. Most Mexican weapons come from black markets in Central America. Most of these cartels want MGs and grenades, not AR-15s. There's no way you can blame our gun mfgs for their problems.

And one thing I don't get: why is their border defense our problem? They aren't apologizing for allowing so many illegals and drugs to pass through their Northern border. If they don't care about that, then why should we care if a few guns pass through our Southern border?
Don't play the game. In one sentence you say "Most of these weapons are, predictably not traceable." which you immediately follow with "Most Mexican weapons come from black markets in Central America." Which is it? I don't think anyone really knows other than the US and Mexican Governments. It sure would be nice to see some hard facts from a reputable source.

CalBear
04-21-2011, 10:15 PM
Don't play the game. In one sentence you say "Most of these weapons are, predictably not traceable." which you immediately follow with "Most Mexican weapons come from black markets in Central America." Which is it? I don't think anyone really knows other than the US and Mexican Governments. It sure would be nice to see some hard facts from a reputable source.
You're right, but in some of the interviews I've seen of anonymous cartel members, they assert most of the weapons are coming from South of Mexico. To me that makes a heck of a lot more sense than them getting MGs and grenades from US gun shops. But yes, you're right. They're making up statistics based on a small sample, and my guess is the vast majority of the guns are in fact untraceable, so we can't say where they came from. I'd like to see the actual numbers like how many they found, how many were traced, etc. I bet they traced very, very few.

Colt-45
04-21-2011, 10:15 PM
Sue the batfe for allowing fast and furious and operation gunrunner to happen in the first place

That would be a better approach but their not smart enough to do that.

hornswaggled
04-21-2011, 10:19 PM
Dear Mexico. Maybe if you prosecute some of your own criminals instead of taking bribes and kickbacks from them, your crime rate might you know.. go down or something. Mexico wallows in a cess pool of corruption where kidnapping is only a misdemeanor. Yes, clearly US arms manufacturers are the problem. Clearly. Why is it that we MAKE the guns here, allow our people to buy them, and our society isn't f-cked up like yours is?

ubet
04-21-2011, 10:20 PM
I think its time we send a few troops down into Mexico again and kick their ****ing ***, just like General Black Jack Pershing did. For a country with 45% unemployment, and a drug war going on, that makes Iraq 2005 look like ****ing Hawaii, I think I would look more at the drug cartels than America. It is so easy to point your finger at someone else, but feels like **** when you look in the mirror and its pointing back at you.

My honest opinion, everytime one of those drug cartels crosses into the USA, take 10 miles of Mexico, from the gulf of mexico to the pacific into USA control. Push the natives south, maybe that would get their attention, by the time we reached Guatemala they would get the hint.

**** Calderon.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:20 PM
Can governments sue private entities? Could a private entity sue Mexico? how does all of that work?
Sure, both ways...

The interesting thing here is that there is not a lot of typical impediments that would constrain such a case. It would typically be bad PR for the US Government to sue Colt (as an example) especially if they want an ongoing business relationship. Saudi Arabia probably wouldn't be too quick to sue the US defense contractor is had worked with for 20 years and depends on to maintain expensive weapons systems. Private companies can sue sovereign nations but lotsa luck with that -- it usually takes petro dollars to make that worth while.

Mexico could attack Ruger, S&W, Remington, etc. etc. in court and a large part of the US (including parts of the Obama Administration) would be wetting themselves with joy. They can always buy small arms from other manufacturers.

ubet
04-21-2011, 10:22 PM
I just love the fact that I can go into any gunstore in US and buy grenades :rolleyes:

dustoff31
04-21-2011, 10:23 PM
^ agreed why not go after the ATF..

'cause even they know better than to bite the hand that feeds them. ATF=US Gov

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:24 PM
I think its time we send a few troops down into Mexico again and kick their ****ing ***, just like General Black Jack Pershing did. For a country with 45% unemployment, and a drug war going on, that makes Iraq 2005 look like ****ing Hawaii, I think I would look more at the drug cartels than America. It is so easy to point your finger at someone else, but feels like **** when you look in the mirror and its pointing back at you.

My honest opinion, everytime one of those drug cartels crosses into the USA, take 10 miles of Mexico, from the gulf of mexico to the pacific into USA control. Push the natives south, maybe that would get their attention, by the time we reached Guatemala they would get the hint.

**** Calderon.
:rolleyes:

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:28 PM
Dear Mexico. Maybe if you prosecute some of your own criminals instead of taking bribes and kickbacks from them, your crime rate might you know.. go down or something. Mexico wallows in a cess pool of corruption where kidnapping is only a misdemeanor. Yes, clearly US arms manufacturers are the problem. Clearly. Why is it that we MAKE the guns here, allow our people to buy them, and our society isn't f-cked up like yours is?
:rofl2:

luckystrike
04-21-2011, 10:29 PM
yeah as soon as the flow of illegals and drugs stops.:rolleyes:

nick
04-21-2011, 10:31 PM
Umm, should we sue Mexico for libel, given that they're knowingly lying about the whole thing? On the second thought, let's not sue it, or else we'll be paid in drugs and illegals.

nick
04-21-2011, 10:33 PM
I think its time we send a few troops down into Mexico again and kick their ****ing ***, just like General Black Jack Pershing did. For a country with 45% unemployment, and a drug war going on, that makes Iraq 2005 look like ****ing Hawaii, I think I would look more at the drug cartels than America. It is so easy to point your finger at someone else, but feels like **** when you look in the mirror and its pointing back at you.

My honest opinion, everytime one of those drug cartels crosses into the USA, take 10 miles of Mexico, from the gulf of mexico to the pacific into USA control. Push the natives south, maybe that would get their attention, by the time we reached Guatemala they would get the hint.

**** Calderon.

Umm, why? We don't have enough problems of our own or something?

Wernher von Browning
04-21-2011, 10:35 PM
I think its time we send a few troops down into Mexico again and kick their ****ing ***, just like General Black Jack Pershing did.

Well, there's a problem there. Because he didn't.

No fault of his own, but Black Jack was about as successful in catching Pancho Villa as, well, a buncha more recent guys have been in catching Bin Laden. Lots of similarities in the two situations.

But Mexico in 1916 was good practice for the Army for when they went to France in 1917.

bwiese
04-21-2011, 10:36 PM
PLCAA should cut this crap short.
It's already been tested in courts.

Joe
04-21-2011, 10:36 PM
Mexico is a joke. U.S. gun manufacturers should countersue. I'd award them all of mexico's crappy/worthless assets.

fred40
04-21-2011, 10:44 PM
How can they possibly win? It's like suing Jack Daniels if I get in an accident drunk driving.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:48 PM
yeah as soon as the flow of illegals and drugs stops.:rolleyes:
That'll happen when Americans stop demanding the drugs...

Veggie
04-21-2011, 10:49 PM
We should sue Mexico for every penny illegal aliens have cost us. It's pretty ridiculous how much the current regime down there enjoys blaming the US for every one of its problems.

Sue them for all the drugs while we are at it.

MontClaire
04-21-2011, 10:50 PM
They will never get it off the ground....but even if they somehow do....how are they going to collect? By force?:rofl:

swilson
04-21-2011, 10:52 PM
Apparently they can trace individual firearms back to their legal American owners... or at least supposidly. Has anyone heard of the Mexican authorities returning stolen firearms to Americans?

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:52 PM
How can they possibly win? It's like suing Jack Daniels if I get in an accident drunk driving.
There are many ways that Mexico could do great damage. None of the US small arms makers are GE. They are relatively small. Defending themselves against a sovereign nation could get muey expensive. That's when politics comes into play and deals are cut.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:53 PM
They will never get it off the ground....but even if they somehow do....how are they going to collect? By force?:rofl:

Through the US courts...

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:55 PM
Mexico is a joke. U.S. gun manufacturers should countersue. I'd award them all of mexico's crappy/worthless assets.

Yeah, that's work. :rolleyes:

Have you seen the balance sheets of most US small arms makers? ;)

M. Sage
04-21-2011, 10:55 PM
Sue the batfe for allowing fast and furious and operation gunrunner to happen in the first place

Make sure to sue Obama and Holder personally. Holder is the man responsible for the DOJ, and Obama is the man responsible for Holder.

I still shake my head at people thinking that Gunrunner was a mistake. The only mistake was getting caught. They wanted more US-sourced guns in Mexico. This isn't an intel op gone bad, this was all planned out... except the "getting caught" part.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 10:57 PM
Well, there's a problem there. Because he didn't.

No fault of his own, but Black Jack was about as successful in catching Pancho Villa as, well, a buncha more recent guys have been in catching Bin Laden. Lots of similarities in the two situations.

But Mexico in 1916 was good practice for the Army for when they went to France in 1917.
A history sanity check! Nice!

InGrAM
04-21-2011, 10:57 PM
We should bomb them back into the stone age.... OH WAIT! they are already in the stone age. Just like most of the middle east.

Hunt
04-21-2011, 10:57 PM
prohibition doesn't work, want to see an end to the drug violence, decriminalize drugs.
Portugal has done it and the world did not come to an end. http://www.gadling.com/2009/05/21/portugal-decriminalizes-drugs-world-doesnt-end/

nick
04-21-2011, 11:03 PM
We should bomb them back into the stone age.... OH WAIT! they are already in the stone age. Just like most of the middle east.

Umm, why? Just because their leadership is being stupid and/or dishonest? In that case, shouldn't we bomb ourselves into Stone Age, as well?

stitchnicklas
04-21-2011, 11:03 PM
I guess we need to build that border fence after all.
That'll fix the problems of things going south.


ummm,you mean the one that got 75% built and obama order construction to stop???
you mean this fence that i helped build???
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=95051&d=1303452322


mexico is all banter and joke...

ubet
04-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Hmmm, maybe I shouldnt try to post history lessons after a bottle of whisky?
:confused:

I DO think though, we need to militarize the border. Keep whats in, in, whats south of it OUT!

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:04 PM
prohibition doesn't work, want to see an end to the drug violence, decriminalize drugs.
Portugal has done it and the world did not come to an end. http://www.gadling.com/2009/05/21/portugal-decriminalizes-drugs-world-doesnt-end/
I'm not saying that decriminalization is the answer but I do know this mess is based on the degenerate US appetite for illegal drugs. Without that demand the cartels die. The ONLY way to stop the madness is to eliminate the demand for illegal drugs (good luck -- the USA as a society has FAILED at doing that) or to make the drugs legal.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:05 PM
Umm, why? Just because their leadership is being stupid and/or dishonest? In that case, shouldn't we bomb ourselves into Stone Age, as well?
N I C E !! :D

ubet
04-21-2011, 11:07 PM
One more thing, like said, take the money out of it, legalize drugs here, tax it HEAVY, and call it a day. Prohibition didnt work in 21, the prohibition isnt working now on drugs, you take the mystery away, and suddenly, no problem. If that doest work NUKE EM!!!!


I kid I kid, I dont want the fall out :rofl:

santacruzstefan
04-21-2011, 11:08 PM
I'm not saying that decriminalization is the answer but I do know this mess is based on the degenerate US appetite for illegal drugs. Without that demand the cartels die. The ONLY way to stop the madness is to eliminate the demand for illegal drugs (good luck -- the USA as a society has FAILED at doing that) or to make the drugs legal.

Its a nice idea, but its not just an American problem; its a biological drive. You'll never get rid of demand, therefore you'll never get rid of supply. The border fence seems to be the best alternative, though even that won't stop everything (drugs/people and guns/money, going North and South, respectively).

InGrAM
04-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Umm, why? Just because their leadership is being stupid? In that case, shouldn't we bomb ourselves into Stone Age, as well?

How long has that country been corrupt? Corrupt cops/politicians in America is an exception not the STANDARD like in mexico. Mexico is corrupt as hell and the people don't care or it would have changed along time ago.

And who said anything about America's leadership being "stupid"?

jamesob
04-21-2011, 11:11 PM
it'll work as well as them sueing Arizona

you are dead wrong on that one. did you forget about the rancher that just got is *** sued by illegals that were on his property illegaly. if you think they dont have a chance of winning a lawsuit, you have another thing comin.

Joe
04-21-2011, 11:18 PM
Yeah, that's work. :rolleyes:

Have you seen the balance sheets of most US small arms makers? ;)

It'll work as good as Mexico sueing the gun makers.

My post is more of a joke anyway =)

oni.dori
04-21-2011, 11:23 PM
:eek:ARE YOU EFFING SERIOUS!?!? :eek:

How is that even possible? Would they even be able to in a US court (because that is the only court that would matter in this context)? Why not just SUE THEM for all of the illegal immigrants here, the cost of controling them and that they burden the taxpayers with, the cost of housing them in prisons for the crimes they commit here, the cost of housing/feeding/deporting them, and for all of the BLATANT corruption from the lowest to HIGHEST (read: CALDERON) levels that ALLOWED this situation to even fester to what it is now from its beginnings, instead of NIPPING IT IN THE BUD to begin with. Then, how about we follow that up with a suit against MEXICO for its police and military forces being so corrupt that they either sell off THEIR OWN ISSUE FIREARMS to the cartels and/or turn a blind eye to/aide them in their criminal activities? See how they like them apples. TWO can play at this game.

What I think is funny is that, the information coming out from gunwalker is that the guns they can "track back to the US" either came from the BATFE BLATANTLY AND KNOWINGLY letting them across the border, or were purchased from the aforementioned police/military agencies that BOUGHT THEM FROM THE US GOVERNMENT TO BEGIN WITH. Or the ones the cartel's have SELF ADMITTEDLY bought from the other cartels/guerilla factions/corrupt government agencies in Honduras and other SA countries (which they also self admit is the MAJORITY of where they obtain them from, which were also procured from THE US GOVERNMENT IN THE 80'S). Oh the irony. On top of that, they say that can trace them back to "US manufacturers", well US manufacturers make a MAJORITY of the firearms in use/existence, at least here in North America. Since when was the last time you heard of a Mexican made gun? The closest thing to that we have is Taurus.

Spetsnazos
04-21-2011, 11:24 PM
lets sue them for all the illegals instead

Dreaded Claymore
04-21-2011, 11:24 PM
There are many ways that Mexico could do great damage. None of the US small arms makers are GE. They are relatively small. Defending themselves against a sovereign nation could get muy expensive. That's when politics comes into play and deals are cut.

What's GE?

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:26 PM
Its a nice idea, but its not just an American problem; its a biological drive. You'll never get rid of demand, therefore you'll never get rid of supply. The border fence seems to be the best alternative, though even that won't stop everything (drugs/people and guns/money, going North and South, respectively).
You're right, the problem is certainly not limited to the USA nor do I think the problem can be completely eradicated. As a society though, the USA pretty much sucks when one views the amount of illegal drugs that are consumed by its citizens.

There is already a border fence. To actually garrison the USA is a whole other enchilada. If it was actually done effectively (a huge political football), it would be fascinating to see how the drug suppliers would react/compensate because it would do nothing to dry-up demand...

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:26 PM
What's GE?
General Electric.

kcbrown
04-21-2011, 11:28 PM
You're right, but in some of the interviews I've seen of anonymous cartel members, they assert most of the weapons are coming from South of Mexico. To me that makes a heck of a lot more sense than them getting MGs and grenades from US gun shops. But yes, you're right. They're making up statistics based on a small sample, and my guess is the vast majority of the guns are in fact untraceable, so we can't say where they came from. I'd like to see the actual numbers like how many they found, how many were traced, etc. I bet they traced very, very few.

Not that it matters.

Just because a firearm was made someplace doesn't mean its where the cartel got it from.

Anyone wanna take bets that when they say they "most of these are American weapons", they mean only that they were manufactured by a U.S. company?

That doesn't mean diddly. U.S. manufacturers sell small arms all over the world, and our government likes to sell (or, hell, even give) U.S. made arms to foreign entities that serve its "interests". What happens to them after that first international transaction has taken place is almost entirely beyond our control.


So yeah, the weapons could easily be coming into Mexico from its south and still originate here. Big frakkin deal.

Maestro Pistolero
04-21-2011, 11:31 PM
You can't even sue the manufacturers in the US, how are they going to do it from Mexico? Somebody is smoking up some of the profit.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:31 PM
...rant removed...Since when was the last time you heard of a Mexican made gun? The closest thing to that we have is Taurus.

Productos Mendoza has a long history (since 1911) of making guns -- including machine guns in Mexico. http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/portada.php

Cali-Shooter
04-21-2011, 11:33 PM
lets sue them for all the illegals instead

This, +Infinity.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:33 PM
You can't even sue the manufacturers in the US, how are they going to do it from Mexico? Somebody is smoking up some of the profit.
You can sue the manufacturers in the USA. But who would do such a thing? The US Government? The PR fallout would be huge. Mexico has no such concerns. It's rather scary because the current administration might be very supportive of Mexico taking care of the heavy lifting...

kcbrown
04-21-2011, 11:34 PM
^ agreed why not go after the ATF..

Well, because the ATF is part of the government, and the government would never engage in a conspiracy to fool the population into believing that thousands of guns are being sold illegally and making it across the border, because, after all, conspiracies don't happen (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=422629)!

Ya gotta take the tin-foil hat off...



:rofl2:

tankerman
04-21-2011, 11:35 PM
They want to use RICO as the method for suing the gun manufacturers. :smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

RICO was put together to handle entities that operate just like Mexico, corruption to the bone.

I suggest we bring suits against Mexico in US courts for assaults on US sovereignty. When it's time to collect reparations, we should start be confiscating the assets of all illegals in this country.

Excelsior
04-21-2011, 11:37 PM
How long has that country been corrupt? Corrupt cops/politicians in America is an exception not the STANDARD like in mexico. Mexico is corrupt as hell and the people don't care or it would have changed along time ago.

And who said anything about America's leadership being "stupid"?
Hogwash. Most of "the people" live in poverty because of the corruption of comparatively few. Like many other nations in this world "the people" have little power to change things.

Scott Connors
04-21-2011, 11:51 PM
Well, if the Mexican government states that it has 8,000 grenades obtained from civilian sources, I'd like to put in my claim for the 5,000 legal grenades that I had stolen from my safe last year. It would be nice if they'd return them forthwith.

:rolleyes:

Be careful what you wish for. They might return the grenades w/o the pins.... :eek:

nick
04-21-2011, 11:53 PM
How long has that country been corrupt? Corrupt cops/politicians in America is an exception not the STANDARD like in mexico. Mexico is corrupt as hell and the people don't care or it would have changed along time ago.

And who said anything about America's leadership being "stupid"?

I did, and I also added "dishonest".

Texas Boy
04-22-2011, 12:00 AM
How long has that country been corrupt? Corrupt cops/politicians in America is an exception not the STANDARD like in mexico. Mexico is corrupt as hell and the people don't care or it would have changed along time ago.

Try a simple search for "Mexican Drug Cartel Conviction rate" - all the reports I can find indicate the vast majority of those unlucky enough to be arrested on drug cartel or corruption charges are never convicted...in fact many never even go to court. There is no (real) law enforcement in Mexico.

Calling Mexico Corrupt is like saying an H-bomb is bigger than a firecracker...while true, it hardly describes the staggering enormity of the problem.

oni.dori
04-22-2011, 12:20 AM
Productos Mendoza has a long history (since 1911) of making guns -- including machine guns in Mexico. http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/portada.php

Well, that's news to me.

Colt-45
04-22-2011, 12:22 AM
Can we overthrow the Mexican .gov and name me Dictator? The Mexican people are good people but their .gov is full of ****.

morfeeis
04-22-2011, 12:32 AM
'cause even they know better than to bite the hand that arms them. ATF=US Gov

fixed that for you....

Arondos
04-22-2011, 12:55 AM
Does this mean I can sue For all the pain and suffering Cuervo Tequila cost me in my younger days?

N6ATF
04-22-2011, 1:01 AM
'cause even they know better than to bite the hand that feeds them. ATF=US Gov

This. Arms, feeds, gives free government services to...

luckystrike
04-22-2011, 2:38 AM
Productos Mendoza has a long history (since 1911) of making guns -- including machine guns in Mexico. http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/portada.php

LOL of the day. you do realize those are air guns, right?

kermitz
04-22-2011, 2:57 AM
The USA should sue Mexico for exporting drugs and Mexican's.

Some Guy
04-22-2011, 9:35 AM
LOL of the day. you do realize those are air guns, right?

Lol of the day, you cant read Spanish can you.

Noxx
04-22-2011, 9:57 AM
It's like I'm taking crazy pills.

Jack L
04-22-2011, 10:14 AM
We should sue Mexico for every penny illegal aliens have cost us. It's pretty ridiculous how much the current regime down there enjoys blaming the US for every one of its problems.


Indeed. And many other issues Mexico has caused the USA. Mexico is always blaming everyone but themselves. It's a failed state with a big ego. They need to farm out running their pathetic country. If not the USA then let a European county run their mess.

With no death penalty and always allowing the biggest dirt bags out of prison with fake escapes and so forth, they will never get a handle on their problems. The country has been a disaster for over 200 years if not forever.

If they want to sue someone, how about the ATF who is in deep poop right now.

Spetsnazos
04-22-2011, 10:28 AM
If they want to sue someone, how about the ATF who is in deep poop right now.

The ATF is a US govt agency. That basically means they sue the US govt...

No thanks, I think we should sue them for all the illegals instead.

Glock22Fan
04-22-2011, 10:31 AM
I guess we need to build that border fence after all.
That'll fix the problems of things going south.


I favor Predators, flying a random pattern and programmed to automatically fire on any trace of movement bigger than a (four legged) coyote.

HUTCH 7.62
04-22-2011, 10:32 AM
Lets send the entire Brady Campaign over to Mexico to help them out with their gun violence:D

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 10:40 AM
I'm not saying that decriminalization is the answer but I do know this mess is based on the degenerate US appetite for illegal drugs. Without that demand the cartels die. The ONLY way to stop the madness is to eliminate the demand for illegal drugs (good luck -- the USA as a society has FAILED at doing that) or to make the drugs legal.

The US appetite for drugs that causes all this problem. That's what we keep hearing. But I have a question for you. What percentage of those actually consuming said drugs in the US are Mexican nationals who are here either legally or illegally?

I work very, very close to this situation and I can tell you that it is NOT an insignificant number. So if we deport those people, then a large portion of the consumption stays south of the border. I'm all for that.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 10:44 AM
Not that it matters.

Just because a firearm was made someplace doesn't mean its where the cartel got it from.

Anyone wanna take bets that when they say they "most of these are American weapons", they mean only that they were manufactured by a U.S. company?

That doesn't mean diddly. U.S. manufacturers sell small arms all over the world, and our government likes to sell (or, hell, even give) U.S. made arms to foreign entities that serve its "interests". What happens to them after that first international transaction has taken place is almost entirely beyond our control.


So yeah, the weapons could easily be coming into Mexico from its south and still originate here. Big frakkin deal.

Not to mention the weapons that are sold or given by the US government to Mexican military or police, that then get illegally sold to the cartels by the police or military, or taken to the cartels when the police or military they have been issued to defects and joins the cartels.

G60
04-22-2011, 10:46 AM
The NSSF has responded with IMO, a pretty good statement on this:
http://www.nssfblog.com/firearms-industry-responds-to-mexico%E2%80%99s-threats-of-litigation/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NSSFBlog+%28NSSF+Blog%29

My favorite part:

"as many as 150,000 Mexican soldiers defected to work for the drug cartels...Perhaps the Mexican government should seek to file suit against their military personnel actively engaged in such illegal conduct."

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 10:47 AM
The US appetite for drugs that causes all this problem. That's what we keep hearing. But I have a question for you. What percentage of those actually consuming said drugs in the US are Mexican nationals who are here either legally or illegally?

A tiny number, for two reasons. First, the reason US druggies can consume so much illegal drugs is because they have sufficient discretionary funds to do so. Most Mexicans working in the US don't have such funds. Second, drug use by Mexicans is not socially condoned (for a number of reasons) as it is in much of the USA.

I work very, very close to this situation and I can tell you that it is NOT an insignificant number. So if we deport those people, then a large portion of the consumption stays south of the border. I'm all for that.

It's TINY compared to the total number. "Depositing" people south of the border would have little positive impact other than creating some jobs here in the USA. This "secure fence fantasy" is nothing more than an excuse so that people do not have to face America's huge problem of sucking down illegal drugs by the boatload.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 10:48 AM
Lol of the day, you cant read Spanish can you.

I was just about to say that. The website does have a section for air guns but they also make real ones, like 9mm submachine guns...

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 10:50 AM
Not to mention the weapons that are sold or given by the US government to Mexican military or police, that then get illegally sold to the cartels by the police or military, or taken to the cartels when the police or military they have been issued to defects and joins the cartels.
You keep coming up with excuses yet you can't face the fact that guns from the US make it down to Mexico and that the USA consumed a HUGE amount of illegal drugs.

As long as you keep ignoring those facts, you're comments will be nothing more than noise. Any serious discussion about truly improving things has to consider both.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 10:50 AM
A tiny number, for two reasons. First, the reason US druggies can consume so much illegal drugs is because they have sufficient discretionary funds to do so. Most Mexicans working in the US don't have such funds. Second, drug use by Mexicans is not socially condoned (for a number of reasons) as it is in much of the USA.



It's TINY compared to the total number. "Depositing" people south of the border would have little positive impact other than creating some jobs here in the USA. This "secure fence fantasy" is nothing more than an excuse so that people do not have to face America's huge problem of sucking down illegal drugs by the boatload.

I don't know who you are or what type of work you do, but it is most definitely NOT a tiny percentage. Again, I have personal, firsthand knowledge of this. So unless you are prepared to cite some reliable statistics, I must deduce that you don't know your facts.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 10:53 AM
You keep coming up with excuses yet you can't face the fact that guns from the US make it down to Mexico and that the USA consumed a HUGE amount of illegal drugs.

As long as you keep ignoring those facts, you're comments will be nothing more than noise. Any serious discussion about truly improving things has to consider both.

And you continue to completely ignore Mexico's role or fault in any of this. I'm beginning to think you may be a Mexican governmental agent. Do you really think that this situation is all the US's fault?

What truly is TINY is the percentage of guns that the cartels get from the US. Yes it does happen, but it is a mere fraction of the weapons the cartels get.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 10:59 AM
Indeed. And many other issues Mexico has caused the USA. Mexico is always blaming everyone but themselves. It's a failed state with a big ego. They need to farm out running their pathetic country. If not the USA then let a European county run their mess.

With no death penalty and always allowing the biggest dirt bags out of prison with fake escapes and so forth, they will never get a handle on their problems. The country has been a disaster for over 200 years if not forever.

If they want to sue someone, how about the ATF who is in deep poop right now.
Actually I see people like you blaming everyone else but the USA -- except the BATFE.

Your comments "They need to farm out running their pathetic country. If not the USA then let a European county run their mess." is laughable. Sad actually. The main reason for Mexico's condition is because of Spanish (AKA European) colonialism. Those with influence have grabbed power (politics, banking, oil, etc.) and have never let go.

Your comment "The country has been a disaster for over 200 years if not forever." made me laugh. The Republic of Mexico wasn't even formed until 1810. Prior to that it was part of a viceroyalty of Spain. You do the arithmetic.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 11:09 AM
And you continue to completely ignore Mexico's role or fault in any of this. I'm beginning to think you may be a Mexican governmental agent. Do you really think that this situation is all the US's fault?

What truly is TINY is the percentage of guns that the cartels get from the US. Yes it does happen, but it is a mere fraction of the weapons the cartels get.
Actually I don't. I have noted Mexico's complicity in the problem in a number of my posts. Also please don't try to obfuscate matters with your "Mexican governmental agent" garbage. Such comments might de-rail conversations where you come from but I find them to be very transparent.

You don't know what the percentage of guns the Mexican cartels illegally obtain from the US. Nor do I. You claim it's a tiny number but you simply don't know. I want to see proof from Mexico but I won't discount their claims in the meantime.

Here's a question for you. Why is Mexico taking this action? The US gunmakers are small potatoes. Even if Mexico ended-up with ALL their assets it wouldn't pay much more than what are sure to be immense legal fees. Good PR? Not really. Why do you think?

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 11:26 AM
Actually I don't. I have noted Mexico's complicity in the problem in a number of my posts.

Actually, you do. I just read all of your posts and I see nowhere where you have acknowledged Mexico's responsibility. Only rationalized it with statements blaming the US in one way or another.

You don't know what the percentage of guns the Mexican cartels illegally obtain from the US. Nor do I. You claim it's a tiny number but you simply don't know. I want to see proof from Mexico but I won't discount their claims in the meantime.

Did you read the report from STRATFOR? It shows where the cartels get their arms from. Beside that it just doesn't make sense for reasons that all of us here know. You cannot walk into a mom and pop gun store here in the U.S. and buy fully auto weapons. Much less Grenades and grenade launchers. You want to see proof from Mexico but even if they have the proof they will never show it because they are using this supposed situation to extort money and concessions from the US government.

Here's a question for you. Why is Mexico taking this action? The US gunmakers are small potatoes. Even if Mexico ended-up with ALL their assets it wouldn't pay much more than what are sure to be immense legal fees. Good PR? Not really. Why do you think?

It's really not that hard to figure out. You posted earlier that this is how political deals get done. Mexico needs to keep this relevant because that is how they think they are going to get money from the US government.

Why don't you tell us, many of your posts have been quite condescending, you seem to think you know a whole lot more than any of us about this subject. So enlighten us. And please, back up whatever you say with hard verifiable facts or at least something that makes a shred of sense.

Glock22Fan
04-22-2011, 11:29 AM
You don't know what the percentage of guns the Mexican cartels illegally obtain from the US. Nor do I. You claim it's a tiny number but you simply don't know. I want to see proof from Mexico but I won't discount their claims in the meantime.

Actually, it is about 11%. I don't remember the link but it has been explored many times. To start with, most of the recovered firearms aren't traceable to anywhere (missing serial number and whatever). Of the ones that might be tracable, some are and some aren't traced to the U.S.

Now, how many of those 11% are attributable to "straw man" purchases etc. and how many are from legitimate government dealing (supplying firearms to the Mexican military which then go astray) I have no idea.

So, it is a small number indeed that are tracable to American private citizen wrongdoing. And I doubt that many of the grenades are sourced that way.

kcbrown
04-22-2011, 11:39 AM
You don't know what the percentage of guns the Mexican cartels illegally obtain from the US. Nor do I. You claim it's a tiny number but you simply don't know. I want to see proof from Mexico but I won't discount their claims in the meantime.


Well, the ATF has seen to it that Mexico's claims have some semblance of validity. The real question is how much of a problem there would be in the absence of the ATF's "efforts".

The fact of the matter is that the only fully automatic weapons U.S. vendors can legally sell are so expensive that there's no way the cartels would bother paying the kind of cash such weapons command. And explosives such as grenades are entirely off the table. For a U.S. vendor to sell something, it has to get its hands on it first. So you not only have to ask how likely it is that the vendor would be able to sell the weapons in question, you also have to ask how they could acquire them in the first place.

Think the problem through logically. What would be the most inexpensive and available source of automatic firearms available to the cartels? Do you really think it would be U.S. dealers? What possible economic argument could you make for that, much less an argument about the types of weapons the cartels are going to prefer?



Here's a question for you. Why is Mexico taking this action? The US gunmakers are small potatoes. Even if Mexico ended-up with ALL their assets it wouldn't pay much more than what are sure to be immense legal fees. Good PR? Not really. Why do you think?

Politics. Leverage. Public relations.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the Mexican government is colluding with the U.S. government on this? It may seem a bit tin-foilish, but then one might say the same thing about the ATF's Operation Gunwalker. And yet Gunwalker is real.

POLICESTATE
04-22-2011, 11:46 AM
Enough is enough. We suffer more injury to our country and citizens as a result of Mexico's government and citizens than we ever have from terrorists.

Bomb Mexico.

morfeeis
04-22-2011, 12:36 PM
Enough is enough. We suffer more injury to our country and citizens as a result of Mexico's government and citizens than we ever have from terrorists.

Bomb Mexico.
every time i think of mexico i try to think of one thing it has to offer the US and why we haven't just cut them off altogether, the only thing i ever come up with is someone in power must really like patron........

To me this is as bad as those stories where a bad guy broke into someones home hurt himself and then sued the home owner, it's one of those "you're kidding right" moments.

aklover_91
04-22-2011, 12:42 PM
A tiny number, for two reasons. First, the reason US druggies can consume so much illegal drugs is because they have sufficient discretionary funds to do so. Most Mexicans working in the US don't have such funds. Second, drug use by Mexicans is not socially condoned (for a number of reasons) as it is in much of the USA.



It's TINY compared to the total number. "Depositing" people south of the border would have little positive impact other than creating some jobs here in the USA. This "secure fence fantasy" is nothing more than an excuse so that people do not have to face America's huge problem of sucking down illegal drugs by the boatload.

Seems like the solution , then, would be to stop pretending there's something magical and unquantifiable about listed drugs, legalize, and regulate them like we do with politically acceptable things like caffeine and alcohol.

State gets money, prisons get free'd up, we can work on real risk reduction instead of BS scare 'em straight propaganda, and knock the bottom out of the black market making most criminal organizations unsustainable.

But I'm sure y'all will tell me how that would make things worse, some how.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 1:17 PM
Seems like the solution , then, would be to stop pretending there's something magical and unquantifiable about listed drugs, legalize, and regulate them like we do with politically acceptable things like caffeine and alcohol.

State gets money, prisons get free'd up, we can work on real risk reduction instead of BS scare 'em straight propaganda, and knock the bottom out of the black market making most criminal organizations unsustainable.

But I'm sure y'all will tell me how that would make things worse, some how.

Actually, I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea I kind of lean on the fence on that one and jump back and forth from time to time. I do think Marijuana should be legal, even though I have never used it in my life.

One thing that I think people don't realize though, is that this solution will not make the drug cartels go away. They won't just all of a sudden become law abiding, rights respecting citizens. Just like the mob was created by prohibition, and then when prohibition was repealed they went into other criminal enterprises and are still operating today, the members of these organisations would just find some other way to profit by terrorizing the populace...

Lone_Gunman
04-22-2011, 1:26 PM
Dear Mexico,
Ok, it's like this. We've had just about enough of your bull****. First it was the illegals streaming over the border, then the violence, and now you want to sue U.S. gun manufactures? I think you better not. See, American gun owners are already under constant attack from within our own country. Sure, we've been winning in the courts as of late, but it's been a hard fought battle that isn't even close to being over. The Anti-gun groups in the US are true believers who will NEVER give up the fight. The anti-gun politicians are just as bad. We're getting a little tired if the bull**** coming from inside, and now you want to jump into the fight too? Again, I think you better not.

News flash Mexico. I wouldn't give a s*** if 100% of the illegal guns in meh hee ko were coming from the US. If you have a problem with things coming in through your Northern border maybe you better build your own border fence. I suggest you leave the US gun rights fight to US citizens and butt the hell out. 'Cause you know what? We, as US citizens, love our country. We have a patriotic duty to defend our country and our constitution. We are loyal to our country. That loyalty does not extend to Mexico. So mind your business, and fix your s***. This is the U.S., remember "a rifle behind every blade of grass"? Yeah. Now you are trying to f*** with the people that make those rifles, and those of us who own them? Might want to re-think that one, unless you like the sound of "a rifle behind every cactus."
Sincerely,
A U.S. gun owner.

Peter.Steele
04-22-2011, 2:18 PM
Actually I see people like you blaming everyone else but the USA -- except the BATFE.

Your comments "They need to farm out running their pathetic country. If not the USA then let a European county run their mess." is laughable. Sad actually. The main reason for Mexico's condition is because of Spanish (AKA European) colonialism. Those with influence have grabbed power (politics, banking, oil, etc.) and have never let go.

Your comment "The country has been a disaster for over 200 years if not forever." made me laugh. The Republic of Mexico wasn't even formed until 1810. Prior to that it was part of a viceroyalty of Spain. You do the arithmetic.



Oddly enough, I was under the impression that before the Spanish arrived, Mexico was home to a pre-Bronze Age culture based around a rich tradition of human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism.

If I had to choose between my next-door neighbors being heavily armed drug gangs or completely uncontaminated-by-Spain natives making obsidian knives and looking at my chest like it contains their next meal ...

Tough choice, actually. I really don't know which I'd pick. Probably the drug gangs. I mean, yeah, dead is dead either way, but at least the cartels are somewhat less likely to snack on me.

morfeeis
04-22-2011, 2:22 PM
\

One thing that I think people don't realize though, is that this solution will not make the drug cartels go away. They won't just all of a sudden become law abiding, rights respecting citizens. Just like the mob was created by prohibition, and then when prohibition was repealed they went into other criminal enterprises and are still operating today, the members of these organisations would just find some other way to profit by terrorizing the populace...

yes but wouldn't it take away alot of their power via cutting out their main source of income?

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 2:26 PM
yes but wouldn't it take away alot of their power via cutting out their main source of income?

Probably...I think the only way to know for sure is to try it.

POLICESTATE
04-22-2011, 2:42 PM
Oddly enough, I was under the impression that before the Spanish arrived, Mexico was home to a pre-Bronze Age culture based around a rich tradition of human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism.


On a scale I don't believe has ever been matched by any other civilization in history.

I never found much redeeming about Aztec culture, they couldn't even invent the wheel for cryin' out loud!

N6ATF
04-22-2011, 2:42 PM
Bomb the cartels out of existence, legalize the next day.

Goosebrown
04-22-2011, 2:55 PM
But a high percentage "OF THE GUNS THEY TRACED" were traced to the US. Where does one start...

First what percent of the 90,000 weapons did you trace and what part of that were traced to the US? I have this feeling that they are only tracking the weapons they know are from the US and not the ones that their own army hands over on a daily basis.

Second, regardless of whether they are from here or not is it not THEIR responsibility to police their own borders? Seems like I don't blame them for drugs here, I blame the smugglers. Maybe focusing on the people that do the crimes might help stop the crime over all... I don't know about that or anything, just guessing...

Third. If they sue us, then we ought to sue them for the cost of every illegal here.

Finally... F&$K Mexico. Just wanted to ad that...

morfeeis
04-22-2011, 2:59 PM
i'm all for that idea........

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 3:01 PM
Still waiting for excelsior to enlighten us...

luckystrike
04-22-2011, 3:07 PM
Lol of the day, you cant read Spanish can you.

another lol of the day, your ghetto computer dosent translate

Bhobbs
04-22-2011, 3:10 PM
If we were able to stop any guns from going south they should be able to stop any drugs and people coming north.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 3:19 PM
another lol of the day, your ghetto computer dosent translate

Dude, those computer translation programs are garbage. That company does NOT only make air rifles. Have your non-ghetto computer translate it again.

p_shooter
04-22-2011, 3:39 PM
Hand Grenades? American firearm manufacturers make hand grenades?

Do they have a featureless/Bullet Button?

aklover_91
04-22-2011, 3:44 PM
another lol of the day, your ghetto computer dosent translate

http://www.productosmendoza.com/2008/detallesProd.php?IDprod=69

I forgot airguns came in 9mm luger

Gryff
04-22-2011, 3:52 PM
We should drop a few bombs down there so they know what American weapons look like.

Yep. Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Uxi
04-22-2011, 4:09 PM
Actually, it is about 11%. I don't remember the link but it has been explored many times. To start with, most of the recovered firearms aren't traceable to anywhere (missing serial number and whatever). Of the ones that might be tracable, some are and some aren't traced to the U.S.


Have a source on that? I was EXTREMELY skeptical about these claims of US weapons until I saw the numbers that were being done WRT Gunrunner and now have to admit I don't have enough trustworthy evidence to be sure either way. I sure as **** don't trust BATFE or Holder, much less Barry...

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 4:30 PM
Have a source on that? I was EXTREMELY skeptical about these claims of US weapons until I saw the numbers that were being done WRT Gunrunner and now have to admit I don't have enough trustworthy evidence to be sure either way. I sure as **** don't trust BATFE or Holder, much less Barry...

look up the report done by STRATFOR

Jack L
04-22-2011, 5:11 PM
Actually, you do. I just read all of your posts and I see nowhere where you have acknowledged Mexico's responsibility. Only rationalized it with statements blaming the US in one way or another.



Did you read the report from STRATFOR? It shows where the cartels get their arms from. Beside that it just doesn't make sense for reasons that all of us here know. You cannot walk into a mom and pop gun store here in the U.S. and buy fully auto weapons. Much less Grenades and grenade launchers. You want to see proof from Mexico but even if they have the proof they will never show it because they are using this supposed situation to extort money and concessions from the US government.



It's really not that hard to figure out. You posted earlier that this is how political deals get done. Mexico needs to keep this relevant because that is how they think they are going to get money from the US government.

Why don't you tell us, many of your posts have been quite condescending, you seem to think you know a whole lot more than any of us about this subject. So enlighten us. And please, back up whatever you say with hard verifiable facts or at least something that makes a shred of sense.


J.D. Allen,

Are you thinking what I am thinking? Troll postings are usually the same scenarios and lineal progressions. I sense a troll has once again invaded our forum. I agree with you on this one.

kcbrown
04-22-2011, 5:19 PM
Have a source on that? I was EXTREMELY skeptical about these claims of US weapons until I saw the numbers that were being done WRT Gunrunner and now have to admit I don't have enough trustworthy evidence to be sure either way. I sure as **** don't trust BATFE or Holder, much less Barry...

Let me put it this way:

Do you really think the cartels are going to pay $400+ for just one semi-automatic AK-47 or AR-15, much less for each of a large fraction of their purchases? Seriously?

Firearms in the U.S. are expensive, at least for the kinds the cartels are interested in. And cartels are illegal operations, so they're going to be perfectly willing to use the black market when it suits them. Why would they pay list price for firearms that they can get from the black market for much less?

No, if they're getting more than just the occasional weapon through normal channels (whether or not the individual transaction itself is legal), I would think it would be limited to weaponry that is hard to find on the black market but which is still available to U.S. civilians, like .50 BMG rifles and such.

That 11% figure actually sounds far too high.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 5:55 PM
I don't know who you are or what type of work you do, but it is most definitely NOT a tiny percentage. Again, I have personal, firsthand knowledge of this. So unless you are prepared to cite some reliable statistics, I must deduce that you don't know your facts.
Tiny.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 6:01 PM
Bomb the cartels out of existence, legalize the next day.

Bomb the cartels out of existence: Impossible.

Legalize the next day: Cartels will die anyway.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 6:15 PM
And you continue to completely ignore Mexico's role or fault in any of this. I'm beginning to think you may be a Mexican governmental agent. Do you really think that this situation is all the US's fault?

What truly is TINY is the percentage of guns that the cartels get from the US. Yes it does happen, but it is a mere fraction of the weapons the cartels get.

Mexico (and I mean ALL of Mexico) plays a huge role in this illegal drug system we are discussing. You are not telling the truth when you suggest I "completely ignore Mexico's role or fault in any of this." Also, don't ever try to put words in my mouth like "Do you really think that this situation is all the US's fault?" That's not only idiotic, it's offensive.

You don't know if it's "TINY" or not (nor do I) but you speak as if you are working from facts and you're not.

One thing the low-foreheads will NEVER grasp is that immigration and this drug trafficking system are difficult problems. Their "throw up a fence" mantra is ludicrous yet they cannot see that and it leads to their growing frustration. Garrisoning the USA might be part of the solution but the ramifications are immense and they need to be carefully considered.

One thing the low-foreheads never talk about is what WOULD happen if the USA was sealed off from Mexico along the border? With the USA's HUGE drug thirst and billions of dollars at stake, does anyone really think a big wall would be any solution at all? What would be the impact?

Tunneling? That's already going on big time. Drug shipments by air and by water and through 3rd party countries. As prices for illegal drugs rose there would be a resurgence in illegally manufacturing drugs in the USA -- likely in some part by the Mexican cartels. There would also be a shifting from that are difficult to obtain drugs (ex. cocaine) to easy to manufacture drugs (meth.)

It's a huge, complicated problem...

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 6:27 PM
Oddly enough, I was under the impression that before the Spanish arrived, Mexico was home to a pre-Bronze Age culture based around a rich tradition of human sacrifice and ritual cannibalism.

And? The structure we see in Mexico (the haves and the have-nots) is right out of Spanish colonialism.

If I had to choose between my next-door neighbors being heavily armed drug gangs or completely uncontaminated-by-Spain natives making obsidian knives and looking at my chest like it contains their next meal ...

Talk about a false dichotomy! Does anyone actually fall for that kinda garbage? Really?

Tough choice, actually. I really don't know which I'd pick. Probably the drug gangs. I mean, yeah, dead is dead either way, but at least the cartels are somewhat less likely to snack on me.
Can I take part in your fantasy as well? If I was Mexican and it was my choice I would choose to be conquered by the German section of Switzerland. The economy could be based on tourism, oil, banking and the manufacture of fine Mexican watches. Mexico could build a huge wall to keep all the sewage that is now part of the USA out of pristine Mexico.

kcbrown
04-22-2011, 6:30 PM
It's a huge, complicated problem...


Unless, of course, you just legalize the stuff.

You don't see a bunch of illegally smuggled alcohol, do you?


If one attempts to argue that the result would be a larger number of addicts, then one also must show that the rate of alcohol addiction dropped substantially during prohibition, and rose substantially (and stayed at those elevated levels) afterwards.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 6:35 PM
On a scale I don't believe has ever been matched by any other civilization in history.

I never found much redeeming about Aztec culture, they couldn't even invent the wheel for cryin' out loud!

LOL!! The horror of the Aztecs is NOTHING compared to the carnage of today's abortion world:

WORLDWIDE

Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000

UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 6:38 PM
Unless, of course, you just legalize the stuff.

You don't see a bunch of illegally smuggled alcohol, do you?

If one attempts to argue that the result would be a larger number of addicts, then one also must show that the rate of alcohol addiction dropped substantially during prohibition, and rose substantially (and stayed at those elevated levels) afterwards.

Legalizing drugs would have to be part of the discussion. Unfortunately that's part of the discussion that the low-foreheads will never acknowledge. Their only "answer" they know is "throw up a fence."

scarville
04-22-2011, 6:51 PM
LOL!! The horror of the Aztecs is NOTHING compared to the carnage of today's abortion world
Abortion is one of the issues the left uses to divide us. It will be interesting to see if that tactic works here.
:popcorn:

Peter.Steele
04-22-2011, 7:28 PM
And? The structure we see in Mexico (the haves and the have-nots) is right out of Spanish colonialism.



Have and have not is the natural order of things, everywhere, every era. Whether you're in Mexico or the US today, Spain in the 16th century, or ancient freaking Sumeria. Today it's about money and power. Same for Spain then. Sumeria it was probably who had a goat and who didn't. 15th century Mexico wasn't any different in those terms. Of course, when it came to things like 'the wheel' and 'civilization' they were definitely in the 'have nots.'


Talk about a false dichotomy! Does anyone actually fall for that kinda garbage? Really?


Can I take part in your fantasy as well? If I was Mexican and it was my choice I would choose to be conquered by the German section of Switzerland. The economy could be based on tourism, oil, banking and the manufacture of fine Mexican watches. Mexico could build a huge wall to keep all the sewage that is now part of the USA out of pristine Mexico.


Yeah, well, you don't get to choose where you come from, and neither do they. That said, at least the Spaniards weren't killing and eating them.

scarville
04-22-2011, 7:39 PM
Yeah, well, you don't get to choose where you come from, and neither do they. That said, at least the Spaniards weren't killing and eating them.
They weren't eating them, anyways.

Peter.Steele
04-22-2011, 7:46 PM
LOL!! The horror of the Aztecs is NOTHING compared to the carnage of today's abortion world:


UNITED STATES

Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (www.agi-usa.org)



United States-
Population 300,000,000.

At 1.37 million abortions per year, that works out to .0045% of the population per year.


Aztec Empire-
Population 25,000,000 in 1519. (http://www.aztec-history.net/aztec_population)

Estimates for the scope of their sacrifices range from 20,000 to 250,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#Estimates_of_the_ scope_of_the_sacrifices) per year. At the high end, that's .01% of the population per year. At the low end, it's .0008% of the population per year.



Sounds quite comparable to me, really.

Tre(y)13
04-22-2011, 7:50 PM
We should drop a few bombs down there so they know what American weapons look like.

+1 :)

Jack L
04-22-2011, 8:42 PM
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6674

bohoki
04-22-2011, 8:49 PM
we just have to use their excuse

"if it wasn't for your demand you wouldn't have your problem"

tcd511
04-22-2011, 9:23 PM
Amazing that a u.s. Law firm is helping them out. That law firm is a disgrace and should rot in hell!!! no loyalty to the american citizens. How much do we spend on trying to keep out there drugs and boarder hopping people. F#@k mexico and send those attornies to live there.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 11:10 PM
Abortion is one of the issues the left uses to divide us. It will be interesting to see if that tactic works here.
:popcorn:
I think the left now finds itself having to support abortion (due the demands of its sexist/feminist members) and wishes that it could get out from under the evil. It's a lost cause. It's also less and less of a wedge issue.

GDM
04-22-2011, 11:27 PM
http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6674

So doesn't this mean the law W. Signed back in '05 will protect the companies against, if they go lawsuit route, from being sued.

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 11:28 PM
United States-
Population 300,000,000.

At 1.37 million abortions per year, that works out to .0045% of the population per year.


Aztec Empire-
Population 25,000,000 in 1519. (http://www.aztec-history.net/aztec_population)

Estimates for the scope of their sacrifices range from 20,000 to 250,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#Estimates_of_the_ scope_of_the_sacrifices) per year. At the high end, that's .01% of the population per year. At the low end, it's .0008% of the population per year.



Sounds quite comparable to me, really.

You miss the fact today they are murdering babies -- society's most vulnerable members. The adult at least had some semblance of a chance.

Aside from that, your arithmetic is wrong. The abortion rate in the USA today is something like 1.37M/300M = .46% not ".0045%"

Apparently the Aztec sacrifice rate it ranged from 20K/25M to 250K/25M or .08% to 1% of the population. That means the Aztec's sacrifice rate ranges from 17.39% to 217.39% of the current US abortion rate -- HUGE year to year variances. The two are not comparable. If you drilled down a bit deeper you would find that 217% number was for a couple of years at most. Not at all like the millions of abortions year after year...

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 11:33 PM
Amazing that a u.s. Law firm is helping them out. That law firm is a disgrace and should rot in hell!!! no loyalty to the american citizens. How much do we spend on trying to keep out there drugs and boarder hopping people. F#@k mexico and send those attornies to live there.

Why? The law firm is a private business not part of the gov't. If it looks at the evidence and feels that it can win in a court of law, why not get involved? That's what they do for a living. Gun makers get sued all the time. Why is this so special?

Excelsior
04-22-2011, 11:39 PM
Have and have not is the natural order of things, everywhere, every era. Whether you're in Mexico or the US today, Spain in the 16th century, or ancient freaking Sumeria. Today it's about money and power. Same for Spain then. Sumeria it was probably who had a goat and who didn't. 15th century Mexico wasn't any different in those terms. Of course, when it came to things like 'the wheel' and 'civilization' they were definitely in the 'have nots.'
Blarney. For privileged people to oppress others (slavery in the USA being a prime example) is not part of the natural order. You are objectively wrong.

Yeah, well, you don't get to choose where you come from, and neither do they. That said, at least the Spaniards weren't killing and eating them.
Yeah, they were just killing them...

FWIW, the most (99%+) of the Aztecs weren't dining on humans either...

Hunt
04-23-2011, 12:47 AM
about this demand issue causing the problems, there is demand for all types of capital crimes. You don't see thousands of morally grounded people rushing out to fill the demand, saying the US has a demand for a plant or chemical is causing the violence is like having sex to promote celibacy.

N6ATF
04-23-2011, 1:04 AM
Bomb the cartels out of existence: Impossible.

Legalize the next day: Cartels will die anyway.

The drug interdiction forces know where they are, they just refuse to fight the "drug war" to win. That means stop using only small arms.

Cartels will never die unless you burn them with fire. They will adapt like roaches and continue murdering people.

kcbrown
04-23-2011, 3:03 AM
Blarney. For privileged people to oppress others (slavery in the USA being a prime example) is not part of the natural order. You are objectively wrong.


Oh, good.

Then you should be able to name numerous societies in which privileged people did not oppress, abuse, or otherwise take advantage of at least some of those who were not privileged.

Good luck with that.


The rules of natural selection operate on scales both small and large.

scorpionking
04-23-2011, 3:28 AM
I lost interest in the thread as soon as I read the word "Mexico".

Nobody takes Mexico seriously. How could you? The word is associated with drugs and illegal aliens?

No US court will allow this frivolous lawsuit to move forward.

Mexico + New York law firm = sounds like a partnership made in heaven, doomed to fail from the start.

Jack L
04-23-2011, 6:46 AM
I lost interest in the thread as soon as I read the word "Mexico".

Nobody takes Mexico seriously. How could you? The word is associated with drugs and illegal aliens?

No US court will allow this frivolous lawsuit to move forward.

Mexico + New York law firm = sounds like a partnership made in heaven, doomed to fail from the start.

I think most of us here agree with you.



"This information comes to light only weeks after another cable publicized by La Jornada revealed that 90 percent of the drug cartels’ “heavy armament,” such as grenades and rocket launchers, originates in Central America and enters Mexico through its Southern border with Guatemala. Bolstering these claims, IHS Global Insights reported on April 6 that the head of U.S. Southern Command, General Douglas Fraser, testified before the Senate that over 50 percent of the military grade weapons in the region originated from Central America.

Perhaps instead of retaining a boutique law firm from New York City to flout federal law in an attempt to attack law-abiding gun manufacturers, the Mexican government should spend the money on getting some help for the reported 125 Mexican immigration officers patrolling the 577 mile border with Guatemala."

louie
04-23-2011, 8:37 AM
Sadly the guns and drugs thing will never end when there is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ involved in it. Without a doubt the heavy weapons are coming in from other than the USA. Remember the contra wars?? We gave thousands of AK, M16's, grenades, M60's, RPG's to the contras. Also loads of weapons to the armies of El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala. In Central America people rob buses carrying automatic weapons because they are easier to get than pistols! The ex Warsaw Pact and former USSR has enough guns and ammo to last into the next century sitting in warehouses. The cartels in Mexico have money beyond your wildest dreams. I saw recently pictures of a house raided where a very large truck was needed to transport the cash they found. We are talking mostly dollars, but also Euros, Pesos, and even Chinese Yuan!! The appetite for illegal drugs here is unreal, and as long as the profit is beyond your wildest imagination no fence, etc. will stop it. Without a doubt more and more of our own border people are being bought off w/ suitcases of cash. Looking at history we see how well Prohibition worked. The mob never had it so good. Chicago's P.D. as well as others were just as corrupt as the Mexican P.D. are now. Mexico is in deep trouble and looks to blame everyone but themselves. We too, sadly are part of the problem. Not the guns for the most part, but the endless flow of money we send them tax free so some here can party to the max during their spring break, concerts, etc to get as high as a kite, and then some. Take it from me, we bombed the crap out of Vietnam, and Cambodia, but weed was always still available. Bombing, etc. isn't the solution. As someone stated somewhere else, Portugal has for the most part treated drug use as a medical, rather than criminal issue. We must ask ourselves, how much money is made smuggling in Tequila, and Corona's?? No, Seagram's and others import it, sell it, and pay tax on the product. Is the stuff good for you, no, but it doesn't involve the outright warfare we see in Mexico, and worse yet spilling more and more over our border.

J.D.Allen
04-23-2011, 8:39 AM
J.D. Allen,

Are you thinking what I am thinking? Troll postings are usually the same scenarios and lineal progressions. I sense a troll has once again invaded our forum. I agree with you on this one.

EXACTLY what I was thinking. He continues to state things as fact with NOTHING to back them up.

J.D.Allen
04-23-2011, 8:45 AM
Tiny.

I'll say it one last time. Cite some reliable, verifiable statistics, or tell us your basis for knowing this, or it's just more internet bluster, period, end of sentence.

For my part I'll tell you that I have been a full time employee of the criminal courts on and near the border with Mexico for the last seven years. I have personally participated in THOUSANDS of criminal and civil cases related to the consumption of illicit drugs. I also work in another job which I cannot tell you about on a public forum, but is related directly to the same issue.

NOT TINY. not in the least.

J.D.Allen
04-23-2011, 8:55 AM
Mexico (and I mean ALL of Mexico) plays a huge role in this illegal drug system we are discussing. You are not telling the truth when you suggest I "completely ignore Mexico's role or fault in any of this." Also, don't ever try to put words in my mouth like "Do you really think that this situation is all the US's fault?" That's not only idiotic, it's offensive.

It's the internet man, sorry if you're offended, get used to it. I can say whatever I want, and there really isn't much you can do about now it is there? Show me in which post you acknowledged Mexico's fault in this situation and I'll take it back. Not before that.

You don't know if it's "TINY" or not (nor do I) but you speak as if you are working from facts and you're not.

Addressed this in previous post.

One thing the low-foreheads will NEVER grasp is that immigration and this drug trafficking system are difficult problems. Their "throw up a fence" mantra is ludicrous yet they cannot see that and it leads to their growing frustration. Garrisoning the USA might be part of the solution but the ramifications are immense and they need to be carefully considered.

I completely agree. You haven't seen me say just throw up a fence, I guarantee it. This is most certainly a very multifaceted and complicated problem which needs to be addressed from all angles, not just one. And the US government has PURPOSEFULLY done nothing to truly address the issue. And the Mexican government has only encouraged it. I am certainly not one to say that the US government is free of responsibility here, they have long spoken out of both sides of their mouths (both parties) on these issues to pacify their cronies, and it's high time it stopped. I don't think that suing gun manufacturers is the way to accomplish that though.

One thing the low-foreheads never talk about is what WOULD happen if the USA was sealed off from Mexico along the border? With the USA's HUGE drug thirst and billions of dollars at stake, does anyone really think a big wall would be any solution at all? What would be the impact?

Tunneling? That's already going on big time. Drug shipments by air and by water and through 3rd party countries. As prices for illegal drugs rose there would be a resurgence in illegally manufacturing drugs in the USA -- likely in some part by the Mexican cartels. There would also be a shifting from that are difficult to obtain drugs (ex. cocaine) to easy to manufacture drugs (meth.)

It's a huge, complicated problem...

Again, I agree.

Jack L
04-23-2011, 9:16 AM
I'll say it one last time. Cite some reliable, verifiable statistics, or tell us your basis for knowing this, or it's just more internet bluster, period, end of sentence.

For my part I'll tell you that I have been a full time employee of the criminal courts on and near the border with Mexico for the last seven years. I have personally participated in THOUSANDS of criminal and civil cases related to the consumption of illicit drugs. I also work in another job which I cannot tell you about on a public forum, but is related directly to the same issue.

NOT TINY. not in the least.

Good report! And while I am no expert, I did build a house 750 miles below the border. I dealt with politicians, lawyers, mayors and police chiefs, architects and laborers, doctors and firefighters to name a few professions. One gets a dose of the reality concerning Mexico when you live there. When people ask me what I learned, I say, "Do you have an hour to listen".

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 10:53 AM
The drug interdiction forces know where they are, they just refuse to fight the "drug war" to win. That means stop using only small arms.

Cartels will never die unless you burn them with fire. They will adapt like roaches and continue murdering people.
Yeah, that'll happen. :rolleyes:

Until you deal with the demand, there is always going to be someone willing to fill it.

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 10:54 AM
I lost interest in the thread as soon as I read the word "Mexico".

Nobody takes Mexico seriously. How could you? The word is associated with drugs and illegal aliens?

No US court will allow this frivolous lawsuit to move forward.

Mexico + New York law firm = sounds like a partnership made in heaven, doomed to fail from the start.
I take Mexico very seriously. As a neighbor it has a huge impact to the USA -- both good and bad.

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 10:57 AM
I'll say it one last time. Cite some reliable, verifiable statistics, or tell us your basis for knowing this, or it's just more internet bluster, period, end of sentence.

For my part I'll tell you that I have been a full time employee of the criminal courts on and near the border with Mexico for the last seven years. I have personally participated in THOUSANDS of criminal and civil cases related to the consumption of illicit drugs. I also work in another job which I cannot tell you about on a public forum, but is related directly to the same issue.

NOT TINY. not in the least.
YOU cite some "reliable, verifiable statistics." It's remarkable how people offer their unsubstantiated premises as if they were proven facts.

Uxi
04-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Mexico is basically where the US was in the 20's-30's. They need some really heavy handed Federales to take the gloves off and emulate the 1920's and 1930's FBI. Quite simply, if you're associated with a cartel you need to die or go to jail. They're making some progress to that end.

creekside
04-23-2011, 12:14 PM
Why can't we sue the Mexican consulates for knowingly handing out false IDs used to defraud?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matr%C3%ADcula_Consular

N6ATF
04-23-2011, 1:04 PM
Yeah, that'll happen. :rolleyes:

Until you deal with the demand, there is always going to be someone willing to fill it.

There will never not be (or even less) demand.

Jack L
04-23-2011, 1:20 PM
Mexico is basically where the US was in the 20's-30's. They need some really heavy handed Federales to take the gloves off and emulate the 1920's and 1930's FBI. Quite simply, if you're associated with a cartel you need to die or go to jail. They're making some progress to that end.



Mexico does not have the death penalty. So, the military and all levels of LE kill bad guys and whoever else they want. Very, very few prosecutions or even investigations. At this point, there is very little difference between the cartels, many military and LE personal. None can be trusted and all share information with each other.

My God folks, the Narcos have their own patron Saint. How is that for covering your religious behind?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2008/11/081110_narcoreligion.shtml

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 1:25 PM
There will never not be (or even less) demand.
Demand will never be zero, that's for sure. The suggestion that it will never be less then it is today is not only sad, it's gives insight to just how septic American society has become.

N6ATF
04-23-2011, 1:33 PM
American society, or humanity?

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 1:34 PM
Mexico is basically where the US was in the 20's-30's. They need some really heavy handed Federales to take the gloves off and emulate the 1920's and 1930's FBI. Quite simply, if you're associated with a cartel you need to die or go to jail. They're making some progress to that end.
That's not true.

The USA had far more resources in terms of federal law enforcement and prisons. Corruption wasn't as rampant. Biggest of all though the USA has a middle class that was growing in power and ever more angered by the antics of criminals and local corruption. Given the location of this forum, I should also note that the USA also had an armed middle class that was not nearly as vulnerable as today's Mexican citizens.

Mexico has already resorted to using its military against its own citizens -- not a bad thing in my belief and they have shown some progress as you note. The Mexican Army/Navy's tactics are 10x more brutal than the FBI of the 20's/30's which is to be condoned given today's landscape.

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 1:35 PM
American society, or humanity?
Both.

cmaynes
04-23-2011, 1:35 PM
so are they going to sue the Tula arsenal too?

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 1:37 PM
EXACTLY what I was thinking. He continues to state things as fact with NOTHING to back them up.
You're the person making the initial non-substantiated claims. The onus is on you to back-up your original premises.

Excelsior
04-23-2011, 1:48 PM
Oh, good.

Then you should be able to name numerous societies in which privileged people did not oppress, abuse, or otherwise take advantage of at least some of those who were not privileged.

Good luck with that.


The rules of natural selection operate on scales both small and large.
Poor people being oppressed by wealthy people is not "natural selection."

Jack L
04-23-2011, 1:58 PM
American society, or humanity?

A+ to that.

kcbrown
04-23-2011, 2:44 PM
Poor people being oppressed by wealthy people is not "natural selection."

BS it's not. It's no different than the strong gorilla dominating the weak ones, leading the group, and making the weak ones do its bidding. Said gorilla gets the pick of his mate, too.

Just like privileged people tend to: the privileged (when they're male, at least) tend to be more attractive to potential mates, and especially to attractive potential mates, than do the unprivileged.


Those who are privileged do not retain their status simply by doing nothing, you know.

Kid Stanislaus
04-23-2011, 7:21 PM
I discourage anybody who brings up the notion of vacationing in Mexico. We need to take our tourist dollars to a more friendly country.

J.D.Allen
04-23-2011, 11:13 PM
YOU cite some "reliable, verifiable statistics." It's remarkable how people offer their unsubstantiated premises as if they were proven facts.

I asked for either reliable statistics, OR, the basis or reason for which you seem to know this is the case. I am unaware of any statistics kept on this particular subject, so I instead gave you my basis for believing the way that I do, namely my PERSONAL DIRECT INVOLVEMENT in multiple thousands of these cases. I would tend to think for most people that would at least be enough to think I'm not just spouting my mouth off.

You, on the other hand, have presented nothing. ZERO. Nada, as we say in Spanish, mas que palabras pendejas. You said TINY, and presented your own "unsubstantiated premise as proven fact". At least say why you think this to be the case. Otherwise I am through with you. I refuse to continue to be baited by a troll.

oaklander
04-23-2011, 11:29 PM
I did not read this whole thread. Let me see if I can kill it in one post:

1) There's a federal law that prevents lawsuits like this. This is ALL essentially political kabuki. If you can't see that, then there's always AM radio to keep you occupied on your way to your minimum wage job at Wal*Mart.

2) The immigration issue, and this issue - are two separate things. It IS possible to talk about geopolitics without throwing in the "immigration card."

Mexico is our friend and ally. The fact they are doing this is not random - and is connected to something that is being done on our end. I haven't thought about it this far - but it's likely that someone in the current administration thought that this faux suit was a good idea.

I do not know the politics on THAT end - but people just assume that stuff happens randomly. There is NO randomness here. . .

If I was to speculate, I would imagine that someone in federal LE wants to make their job a little easier, and put pressure on someone in the State Department to float an idea in front of the Mexican Consulate, etc. . .

This likely happened at a party, or at a lunch, or informally. . .

That idea got back to people in Mexico who saw an opportunity to look like they were fighting crime. . .

Again, you guys need to think this stuff through. . .

ALSO - this is yet another one of those "it's obvious, but I still should not have explained it that way" posts. . .

IF YOU GUYS WANT TO ARGUE - THINK ABOUT THIS:

Who would benefit????

That's always the first question when you deconstruct something that is political in nature. . . This one is not even complicated.

FULL DISCLOSURE - I have no inside knowledge of any of this. But if I was to map it out - the above is how I would map it.

ant71992
04-23-2011, 11:47 PM
Damn i hate the Mexican Govt so damn much. Seriously they are so ****ING corrupt its not even funny. They treat the poor like complete ****. The poor in mexico dont even have a voice.

I visited a poor ranch in the state of Michoacan. You know how the media says Michoacan right now is probably one of the worst states to visit? Well guess again because i was treated like a "king" because i was a Mexican from the US. I was welcomed by everybody, i went with my uncle who constantly is helping the poor over there and as soon as we got out of the airport there were men there with a sign that said "Bienvenidos a Mexico" all in 2011 SUVS. I was kind of scared at first, i mean who wouldnt considering the things the media says about it.

I was talking to the people and they told me the drug cartels have helped them SO much more than the govt has EVER helped in their whole lifetimes. Again this is in Michoacan, the "Zetas" which are the most violent group of cartels do not roam this state considering the "Familia Michoacana" drove them out DUE to that fact that they just murdered innocent people everyday.

But anyways i guess the local cartel members bought around 10 tractors for the poor and every holiday they hold a huge party in which everybody in the ranch is invited, lots of food, girls, live band, drinks, and i thought to myself, "Wow this is NOTHING like the media puts it out to be"

I mean obviously if your some random person they are going to question you and if you seem like a threat they'll shoot you on the spot. But considering my uncle is from there (dont worry hes legalized, no bull****) they didnt do anything. For the most part these cartels in the state of Michoacan are there to "protect" the state and have their own code of honor in which is states its main purpose of being present is to help the people who have been neglected by their own govt.

Long story short, my main point is that the Mexican govt is the real reason. Most cartels if you can see it like i do, are the poor revolting and being tired of treated like **** by their own govt. Almost all cartel members were poor as ****, i mean when they were growing up they had to wipe with rocks. I am not favoring the cartels all im saying is dont believe the media. ESPECIALLY ANYTHING THE CORRUPTED *** MEXICAN GOVT SAYS!

oaklander
04-24-2011, 12:23 AM
I agree with you. I have connections to people who work to help ease poverty in Mexico.

The issue here is that we don't want to blame the Mexican people for this. They are generally good people. I'm not even sure the government down there is to blame for THIS thing.

Let's all just slow down and think. Then post.

ALSO - we can't solve the issue by talking. I can tell you this with a straight face, and I will look into your eyes when I say it:

"If anyone does not like what is happening in Mexico, then PLEASE help fix it by doing the correct moral, legal and ethical actions."

I am tired of the constant arm-chair quaterbacking on everything. I decided a few years ago to work with people to help "fix" the gun issue here in CA. I urge others to do the concrete things to help "fix" the issues in Mexico - if those issues really bother them.

We are free people, and we CAN do things to make things better. Internet discussions are mental masturbation, and that is all they are.

kcbrown
04-24-2011, 12:47 AM
Mexico is our friend and ally. The fact they are doing this is not random - and is connected to something that is being done on our end. I haven't thought about it this far - but it's likely that someone in the current administration thought that this faux suit was a good idea.

I do not know the politics on THAT end - but people just assume that stuff happens randomly. There is NO randomness here. . .



But ... but .... that would mean there would have to be a conspiracy!

:eek:

:D

ant71992
04-24-2011, 12:50 AM
But ... but .... that would mean there would have to be a conspiracy!

:eek:

:D

NWO!

oaklander
04-24-2011, 1:07 AM
LOL - nah!!!

This one is politics. . .

That being said - maybe I need to rethink things!!!!!!

;)

But ... but .... that would mean there would have to be a conspiracy!

:eek:

:D

451040
04-24-2011, 5:02 AM
A tiny number

:laugh:

Second, drug use by Mexicans is not socially condoned (for a number of reasons) as it is in much of the USA.

But murder and corruption, on an almost unimaginable scale, is.

The Undertaker
04-24-2011, 6:48 AM
Mexico is now looking into the possibility of suing US firearms makers in an attempt to stem the flow of arms to the south:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20056210-10391695.html

I wonder if they can sue F-Troop while they are at it? ;)

Good Lord, how low can they go? I now have less respect for the government of Mexico than I do for the Brady head cases.

Lawlessness result from an utter lack of respect for the government and the rule of law it embodies. So how about cleaning up your own act before blaming anyone (or anything) else?

Stuff like this makes me seriously wish that the US government should ask the Russians for the blueprints of the Berlin Wall.

oaklander
04-24-2011, 9:04 AM
LOL - don't blame Mexico!!!

That's my point - this has "USA" written all over it.

Well - to take it up a step - it kind of feels like a "member swinging contest."

Groups on both ends are likely involved. . . Mexico, as a country, simply does not do things that "pee off" the USA administration. It's self-defeating for them.

Guys - all this "gun stuff" is a LOT more complicated than just a bunch of "anonymous evil forces" who want your guns. Please don't make it that simple. Think about things here. Think about the stakeholders, the likely people who communicate with each other. The people who benefit. The people who lose. Until you do this, you only see the most OBVIOUS things. But you don't see the REAL things.

"Gun rights" are often used as a political football over secondary and tertiary issues that have nothing to do with guns.

Good Lord, how low can they go? I now have less respect for the government of Mexico than I do for the Brady head cases.

Lawlessness result from an utter lack of respect for the government and the rule of law it embodies. So how about cleaning up your own act before blaming anyone (or anything) else?

Stuff like this makes me seriously wish that the US government should ask the Russians for the blueprints of the Berlin Wall.

Smokeybehr
04-24-2011, 9:26 AM
There's SO many undercurrents in this thread that it's impossible to catch them all, but I'm going to try...

Leave the Abortion argument out. This is a firearms board.

If you take a look at the top strata of Mexican society, you'll find that a vast majority of them are nearly 100% European Spanish descent. The divide between the rich and the poor is mainly defined by skin color. The darker you are, generally the poorer you are. Government is the same way.

The Mexican Government has been corrupt since the beginning. I learned about the corruption when I was but a wee child taking my first trip down there in the mid 70's. The Mexican Government owns a LOT of industries which just feeds both sides of the corruption.

Mexico has had de facto one-party rule for the last 40ish years. This has added to the corruption, along with the fact that the President can only serve a single 6-year term, so he can promise whatever he wants to get elected, then do whatever he wants after.

The Narcotraffico problem in Mexico mirrors the gang problem here in the US. When a group of people feels that they can make more money and gain more power faster by illegal means than by legal means, then they will do so. They are now making so much money that they are turning into "philanthropists" in providing things for their communities that the government can't. This also cements their power by turning the population in their favor.

When the Narcos can pay better than the Government, of course you're going to see defections and deep corruption. Soldiers are defecting, taking whatever they can with them. In some cases, whole battalions are double-dipping, getting paid both by the .GOB.MX and by the Narcos. There's dozens of stories of incursions of MX soldiers in full uniform with army HMMWVs with full-auto FALs across the border into the US, some with shots fired at USBP units, purportedly protecting drug shipments.

Yes, we have an illegal alien and illegal drug problem here in the US. Both are coming from South of the Border. The Fence is not the only solution, but it is part of the plan. The plan needs to include demand reduction for both, and reform of the culture on both sides of the border. When you have a government encouraging illegal activity, this shows both a culture of contempt and corruption.

I forget which news show I was watching, but the news babe was just soaking up the BS from the MX government official showing all the confiscated firearms. He grabbed a few off the rack, and showed the roll stamps with US manufacturers, and blamed all the problems on the US.

When you only have a single legal gun store in the country, in the capital, run by the government, selling firearms that are extremely expensive to people on a waiting list, there's no wonder that there's straw purchases and gun running going on in the northern Mexican states.

Wernher von Browning
04-24-2011, 9:47 AM
Think about things here. Think about the stakeholders, the likely people who communicate with each other. The people who benefit. The people who lose. Until you do this, you only see the most OBVIOUS things. But you don't see the REAL things.

"Gun rights" are often used as a political football over secondary and tertiary issues that have nothing to do with guns.

For was it not the Great Rahm Himself, now Emperor of Chicaga, who said...
"Never let a good crisis go to waste."

ant71992
04-24-2011, 10:29 AM
I dont think just "building" a wall is going to solve the problem. The problem is deeper than that and thats a fact. Building a wall is just going to make the drug prices sky rocket forcing the cartels to try new things to smuggle the drugs in which we KNOW they will do so. If its big bucks, they are down for anything.

I seriously think eliminating the govt, installing an honest (or at least some honor) govt that will attend to the poor is the answer. Most of the cartels arent high class citizens, they are dirt poor ranchers who are tired of being neglected. Thats how i see it from what IVE witnessed first hand.

compulsivegunbuyer
04-24-2011, 10:51 AM
BS it's not. It's no different than the strong gorilla dominating the weak ones, leading the group, and making the weak ones do its bidding. Said gorilla gets the pick of his mate, too.

Just like privileged people tend to: the privileged (when they're male, at least) tend to be more attractive to potential mates, and especially to attractive potential mates, than do the unprivileged.


Those who are privileged do not retain their status simply by doing nothing, you know.

I would have to disagree. They are maintaining their edge by artificial means, not by brute strength or superior genetics. Without the government and its forces to protect them, they and their assets would be quickly cannibalized by the hoards. If anything, money makes them more unable to survive without it, especially offspring who are handed everything. Natural selection comes from competition to survive in a changing environment. Should sociaty collapse, then we will see natural selection.

Jack L
04-24-2011, 11:13 AM
I dont think just "building" a wall is going to solve the problem. The problem is deeper than that and thats a fact. Building a wall is just going to make the drug prices sky rocket forcing the cartels to try new things to smuggle the drugs in which we KNOW they will do so. If its big bucks, they are down for anything.

I seriously think eliminating the govt, installing an honest (or at least some honor) govt that will attend to the poor is the answer. Most of the cartels arent high class citizens, they are dirt poor ranchers who are tired of being neglected. Thats how i see it from what IVE witnessed first hand.


This was tried during the revolution. Mexico (the winners) kicked out foreign controlling interest of resources, took land from many wealthy land owners and gave land to the poor and indigenous peoples. The poor were happy for a very short time.

The Cartel is no Robin Hood of the south. 35K murders since 2006. Illegal drug crime is really a negative thing. All ages and all levels of Mexican society have been killed. Now we see low life dirt bag common criminals taking advantage of the chaos. When I lived there I could not trust anyone in LE or the military or the criminals. It keeps morphing and young hit men care little about human life especially when high on meth or whatever it takes to spray a roomful of people with a full auto AK.

You do make a good argument that the common folks in pueblos and cites are just trying to make ends meet and do not want any trouble. The government gives many of the small pueblos and cites very little and sporadically at that. The laws seem to change depending on who is in charge. Cartels dangle a carrot in front of the poor to make them content. This tactic has been used for thousands of years around the world. But in the end, the Cartels stomp out anyone in their way of making huge profits. Many hit men have few scruples about who they take out if they are in the way of their pray. Many mistaken identity murders too.

The government and cartel have created a mess that seems destine to ruin the county 100% before it can be turned around, if ever.

The things that are best about Mexico as far as I am concerned is the values of the poorest people and the wide open spaces with few humans around.

In any event, The Mexican Government has no business to tell us what to do nor not do since their track record is abysmal.

ant71992
04-24-2011, 11:25 AM
The Cartel is no Robin Hood of the south. 35K murders since 2006. Illegal drug crime is really a negative thing. All ages and all levels of Mexican society have been killed. Now we see low life dirt bag common criminals taking advantage of the chaos. When I lived there I could not trust anyone in LE or the military or the criminals. It keeps morphing and young hit men care little about human life especially when high on meth or whatever it takes to spray a roomful of people with a full auto AK.

True, but a lot of those crimes come from the most brutal cartel which have absolutely no RESPECT for the human race which are the "Zetas" The big cartels like the Sinaloa cartel and La Familia have united and have alliance and pledged to protect their state from the Zs. Those two cartels are the ones that currently are giving the people attention more than the govt so the poor LOVE them. They say everybody knows where El Chapo is besides the govt and the people will NOT give him up considering the amount of things he does for them.

The media blows this out of proportion i mean its bad no doubt but definitely not as much as they say. They just dont kill anybody they see (excluding the Zs) they question first and if you seem like a threat well maybe they'll kill you. Its definitely a tactic the cartels use to bribe the poor but honestly at that social class, i doubt the poor care. Thats why a lot of "Narco corrido" singers sing songs about El Chapo, I wondered why as well but after witnessing first hand I found out why.

I seriously dont see an end to this war, EVER. This is a different war then your typical "Gang" stuff.

kcbrown
04-24-2011, 3:48 PM
I would have to disagree. They are maintaining their edge by artificial means, not by brute strength or superior genetics. Without the government and its forces to protect them, they and their assets would be quickly cannibalized by the hoards. If anything, money makes them more unable to survive without it, especially offspring who are handed everything. Natural selection comes from competition to survive in a changing environment. Should sociaty collapse, then we will see natural selection.

You're assuming that the survival advantage I'm referring to is their brute strength. It's not. The advantage here is their ability to convince others (through whatever means) to do their bidding, particularly those who are also in positions of power in the government (but, in reality, it's used on anyone that can prove useful to them). That's going to be some combination of political acumen, charisma, and wealth (and the ability to acquire and/or maintain wealth).

Natural selection is always in play. It's always true that a change in the environment will change the characteristics of natural selection (that is, which traits are selected for), but that is nothing new. And note that the ability to adapt to arbitrary changes in the environment does not necessarily give one a greater overall survival advantage if it comes at the expense of some other trait that is more relevant to the current environment.