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CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:03 PM
Just curious as to why so many people still shoot 9mm, even those who carry on/off duty use 9mm? with the option of carrying the 40 cal, and almost as many rounds, one would think the stopping power would come into play? is it a cost issue? handle the recoil better?

G60
04-21-2011, 8:07 PM
If you research it very well you'll see with modern bullet design (Black talon/hydrashock are not modern designs) that there is not a huge difference in ballistics between the 3 powerhouse handgun calibers. (9/40/45)

Price, ease of controlling the recoil, are the two main factors, at least for me.

rgs1975
04-21-2011, 8:09 PM
Why do you shoot 9mm?
I don't.

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:11 PM
If you research it very well you'll see with modern bullet design (Black talon/hydrashock are not modern designs) that there is not a huge difference in ballistics between the 3 powerhouse handgun calibers. (9/40/45)

Price, ease of controlling the recoil, are the two main factors, at least for me.

There's enough of a difference for federal and local law enforcement agencies to switch over to .40 ;)

railroader
04-21-2011, 8:11 PM
With all my nines I have preban regular capacity mags for starters. I like the recoil better on nines than on forties. If I want something in a bigger caliber I have 45acp which is more accurate for me. Mark

Adub
04-21-2011, 8:11 PM
Price and recoil are definitely a plus but the main reason I bought mine was to shoot the brass and thousands of loose rounds that were given to me. If I wasn't given those components, I would have still bought a 9mm, just not as soon as I did because of the first 2 reasons I put.

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:14 PM
Price and recoil are definitely a plus but the main reason I bought mine was to shoot the brass and thousands of loose rounds that were given to me. If I wasn't given those components, I would have still bought a 9mm, just not as soon as I did because of the first 2 reasons I put.

the free ammo reason is why i recently purchased a sig sp2022 9mm...why not, right? figured it would be good, cheap target practice and still possess another quality firearm

Ubermcoupe
04-21-2011, 8:16 PM
The recoil is easier to handle for extended periods of time. I love my .45 and it was my first purchase but I get worn out when I am at the range for 2+ hours.

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 8:16 PM
stopping power is a myth. You stop things with good shot placement.....end of story

d sauce
04-21-2011, 8:17 PM
I shoot 9 cause why not...


and I'm poor.

DannyZRC
04-21-2011, 8:17 PM
There's enough of a difference for federal and local law enforcement agencies to switch over to .40 ;)

Largest police department in the world issues 9mm (124gr Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P)

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:18 PM
Largest police department in the world issues 9mm (124gr Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P)
im sure a FEW still do, but a MAJORITY issue 40 cal

DannyZRC
04-21-2011, 8:19 PM
im sure a FEW still do, but a MAJORITY issue 40 cal

Your claim, prove it.

Also, if you truly wish to become informed on the topic: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

there are links for further reading included in that post, DocGKR (the linked post's author) is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, and he is one of the foremost ballistic wounding experts on the planet.

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:19 PM
stopping power is a myth. You stop things with good shot placement.....end of story

so you're saying a 9mm round to the chest can take down a 250lb man coming at you as well as a 40 cal will? hmm

Quiet
04-21-2011, 8:21 PM
Largest police department in the world issues 9mm (124gr Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P)
im sure a FEW still do, but a MAJORITY issue 40 cal

Not in the world.

Majority of LE agencies in the USA have adopted .40S&W.

But, worldwide the 9x19mm is still the top dog.

rareair
04-21-2011, 8:24 PM
Price and availability. Most, if not all, sporting good stores will carry atleast generic 9mm.

NorCal Einstein
04-21-2011, 8:25 PM
It's becoming evident to me you just want to **** on the 9mm round. You should have probably just created the thread with your direct intent in mind, "Reasons why you think 9mm sucks".

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 8:25 PM
so you're saying a 9mm round to the chest can take down a 250lb man coming at you as well as a 40 cal will? hmm

yes i am. You take out the aorta, you take out the aorta. The body isn't going to say..."ohh, that felt like 9mm so we can still keep advancing". You can bag on 9mm all you want, but the physics don't lie.

Tacticool
04-21-2011, 8:27 PM
stopping power is a myth. You stop things with good shot placement.....end of story

On Discovery channel one day they interviewed a Navy Seals Captain, He said that they use 9mm. He said he's heard many times that 9mm was underpowered. His answer to that was " When I put two bullets through your heart and one through your head, it's not going to make a difference".

Placement people!!!

SixPointEight
04-21-2011, 8:27 PM
so you're saying a 9mm round to the chest can take down a 250lb man coming at you as well as a 40 cal will? hmm


A shot to the CNS from a .17hmr will stop a person much better than a shot to the elbow with a 50BMG.

So yes, that's exactly what he's saying.

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:29 PM
yes i am. You take out the aorta, you take out the aorta. The body isn't going to say..."ohh, that felt like 9mm so we can still keep advancing". You can bag on 9mm all you want, but the physics don't lie.

i wasn't talking about hitting the aorta. in a self defense situation, do you reall think youre going to have time to stop and aim for a vital organ, artery, etc? the answer is simply NO...and im not bagging on it at all. this is the internet, you can't read tone son. im just saying the 40 cal wasn't developed for no reason. it IS 'ballistically' better than the 9mm.

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 8:31 PM
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about...son. 40 was developed because the 10mm was too powerful, not because the 9mm was too weak.....son. get your facts straight when you come to a gun forum and bring up one of the oldest debates on the internet....son.

SixPointEight
04-21-2011, 8:32 PM
i wasn't talking about hitting the aorta. in a self defense situation, do you reall think youre going to have time to stop and aim for a vital organ, artery, etc? the answer is simply NO...and im not bagging on it at all. this is the internet, you can't read tone son. im just saying the 40 cal wasn't developed for no reason. it IS 'ballistically' better than the 9mm.

Care to provide data?

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

DannyZRC
04-21-2011, 8:33 PM
i wasn't talking about hitting the aorta. in a self defense situation, do you reall think youre going to have time to stop and aim for a vital organ, artery, etc? the answer is simply NO...and im not bagging on it at all. this is the internet, you can't read tone son. im just saying the 40 cal wasn't developed for no reason. it IS 'ballistically' better than the 9mm.

If you don't take your time and aim, and you don't hit them in a vital circulatory structure or disable their central nervous system, then you will not stop the threat.

they may eventually die, but you might not live to see it... son.

Bill Steele
04-21-2011, 8:37 PM
A shot to the CNS from a .17hmr will stop a person much better than a shot to the elbow with a 50BMG....

Yes, and a better way to go to boot, because staring at that bloody stump that used to be your arm, while you bleed out would be a bad way to go... :eek:

I shoot 9mm because it is cheap to shoot, although now that I am reloading, with all that once shot .40 S&W PD brass available cheap, the price difference is pretty small. ;)

SixPointEight
04-21-2011, 8:41 PM
Yes, and a better way to go to boot, because staring at that bloody stump that used to be your arm, while you bleed out would be a bad way to go... :eek:

I shoot 9mm because it is cheap to shoot, although now that I am reloading, with all that once shot .40 S&W PD brass available cheap, the price difference is pretty small. ;)

I shoot...both. I certainly love that nickle .40! lol

toby
04-21-2011, 8:41 PM
I don't own a 9mm but may someday? the 40 ain't all that great,sorry....a 45 is my choice.:)

only10x
04-21-2011, 8:46 PM
I dont have a 9mm
though im thinking about it since ammo is so cheap.

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 8:47 PM
Yes, and a better way to go to boot, because staring at that bloody stump that used to be your arm, while you bleed out would be a bad way to go... :eek:

I shoot 9mm because it is cheap to shoot, although now that I am reloading, with all that once shot .40 S&W PD brass available cheap, the price difference is pretty small. ;)

can't wait to get my G23 and .40cal setup for my Lee Loadmaster. I keep seeing all these great deals on .40 brass (and nickel) and nothing for .45!!!

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:54 PM
And you obviously don't know what you're talking about...son. 40 was developed because the 10mm was too powerful, not because the 9mm was too weak.....son. get your facts straight when you come to a gun forum and bring up one of the oldest debates on the internet....son.

i know why the 40 was developed. the 10mm was indeed too powerful. do you know why the 10mm was developed? famous fbi shootout where the gunmen had be hit multiple times by 38 and 9MM rounds and continued shooting/wounding officers...SON. so yes, it was in part because the 9mm was too WEAK...son. don't go blabbing like your mr. know it all either....SON. someone must have pissed in your wheaties this morning because this was not where i intended this thread to go.

DanDaDude102
04-21-2011, 8:56 PM
I cant wait till they invent ray guns so this debate will finally be over

ianS
04-21-2011, 8:57 PM
Just curious as to why so many people still shoot 9mm, even those who carry on/off duty use 9mm? with the option of carrying the 40 cal, and almost as many rounds, one would think the stopping power would come into play? is it a cost issue? handle the recoil better?


Because I'm not delusional into believing going to a .40 is gonna really make that much of a difference. You really should read this and learn. Its written by someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Instead of some vague understanding of "more powerful" and "stopping power". http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

hkdad
04-21-2011, 9:00 PM
why not? i shoot all calibers if i can. mostly 9mm and .45acp

Patchbunny
04-21-2011, 9:04 PM
I cant wait till they invent ray guns so this debate will finally be over

"What do you mean you use a phase plasma rifle in the 30 watt range? It's all about the 40 watt range, SON."

:D

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 9:07 PM
i know why the 40 was developed. the 10mm was indeed too powerful. do you know why the 10mm was developed? famous fbi shootout where the gunmen had be hit multiple times by 38 and 9MM rounds and continued shooting/wounding officers...SON. so yes, it was in part because the 9mm was too WEAK...son. don't go blabbing like your mr. know it all either....SON. someone must have pissed in your wheaties this morning because this was not where i intended this thread to go.

it's exactly where you intended it to go....it's the only place ".40 has more stopping power" ever does go. The facts support my claims. Mall Ninjas on the internet support yours. BTW, the 10mm was developed in 1983, 3 years before the 1986 miami shootout which lead the FBI to switch ammo....and implement new shooting tactics to get BETTER SHOT PLACEMENT! So once again, get your facts straight. And keep calling me son if it makes your internet pee pee bigger....i was trying to make it obvious that you were being disrespectful by calling me son...guess that was over you're head

DannyZRC
04-21-2011, 9:08 PM
i know why the 40 was developed. the 10mm was indeed too powerful. do you know why the 10mm was developed? famous fbi shootout where the gunmen had be hit multiple times by 38 and 9MM rounds and continued shooting/wounding officers...SON. so yes, it was in part because the 9mm was too WEAK...son. don't go blabbing like your mr. know it all either....SON. someone must have pissed in your wheaties this morning because this was not where i intended this thread to go.

You do realize that the 10mm predates the FBI shootout?

are you also aware that the en vogue handgun cartridges of that era prized expansion over everything? do you know the expansion characteristics of 9mm silvertips used in the shootout? do you know anything about any of the individual wounds sustained by the assailants?

if all you know about handgun wounding is that one cartridge has a larger unfired diameter and more gunpowder than another cartridge, then you don't know anything about handgun wounding, son.

G60
04-21-2011, 9:13 PM
If you research it very well

The reason I included that caveat in my post is because I correctly assumed you have done zero research into the topic at hand besides hearing 'everybody's switching over to it'

JacobSmith
04-21-2011, 9:14 PM
Kinetic Energy=(1/2)mass x velocity^2

I do honestly think that if you have two bullets that are the same shape, but one is going twice the speed of another, but the other's mass was twice that of the fast moving projectile, the one with twice the speed will be MUCH more powerful. The more joules (Kinetic Energy), the better.

That's why the .40 S&W dominates the 9mm, because it nearly goes the same speed as the 9mm, but it's mass is enough to compensate for the huge difference in power that the variable- velocity- has. I guess if you find the right balance between velocity and mass that optimizes your bullet energy, and you weigh out price, availability, and recoil, you can find your answer pretty easily. It's whatever is most important to you.

It did surprise me when I saw how much more important speed is when it comes to increasing kinetic energy than mass. But if the bullet zips right through the person, missing many of his organs that you are hoping will be mutilated, not all of the energy will be transferred to his flesh, so that's why the hollow points, etc. are fairly important with stopping power.

G60
04-21-2011, 9:18 PM
Your claim, prove it.

Also, if you truly wish to become informed on the topic: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

there are links for further reading included in that post, DocGKR (the linked post's author) is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, and he is one of the foremost ballistic wounding experts on the planet.

:thumbsup:
The entire terminal ballistics forum on m4carbine is a great resource, as is anything posted by DocGKR.

Ieyasu
04-21-2011, 9:19 PM
Because I'm not delusional into believing going to a .40 is gonna really make that much of a difference. You really should read this and learn. Its written by someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Instead of some vague understanding of "more powerful" and "stopping power". http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Well, that's twice the link has been posted and the OP has yet to respond.

I formerly used .45 ACP, but didn't see the point after reading links such as the above.

Originally Posted by DannyZRC
Largest police department in the world issues 9mm (124gr Speer Gold Dot 9mm +P)
OP's response:
im sure a FEW still do, but a MAJORITY issue 40 cal

That the majority do 'X' is not proof of much anything. Often, organizations/companies will do 'X' simply because other entities have done it (herd mentality/everybody is doing it, etc.)

cali_armz
04-21-2011, 9:24 PM
9mm is cheap, about half the price of .45acp

thats the only reason i prefer to take my g19 to the range over my g30

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 9:26 PM
Kinetic Energy=(1/2)mass x velocity^2

I do honestly think that if you have two bullets that are the same shape, but one is going twice the speed of another, but the other's mass was twice that of the fast moving projectile, the one with twice the speed will be MUCH more powerful. The more joules (Kinetic Energy), the better.

That's why the .40 S&W dominates the 9mm, because it nearly goes the same speed as the 9mm, but it's mass is enough to compensate for the huge difference in power that the variable- velocity- has. I guess if you find the right balance between velocity and mass that optimizes your bullet energy, and you weigh out price, availability, and recoil, you can find your answer pretty easily. It's whatever is most important to you.

It did surprise me when I saw how much more important speed is when it comes to increasing kinetic energy than mass. But if the bullet zips right through the person, missing many of his organs that you are hoping will be mutilated, not all of the energy will be transferred to his flesh, so that's why the hollow points, etc. are fairly important with stopping power.

you do realize how contradictory that is right? same speed, different mass, but speed is what counts? 9mm is faster, so by your logic, 9mm should be more "powerful".

9mm hollow points and .40 hollow points penetrate nearly the same.

I think what you were trying to say is that .40 transfers more energy to the target. Yes, we all know and agree with that....but the difference is minimal as both pack more than enough energy to kill a human. It's not like the bigger the bullet gets, the bigger the "kill zone" gets. You can't miss by 3 inches just because your bullet is bigger and expect the same results.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS WHAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOCK DOWN POWER.

Ieyasu
04-21-2011, 9:27 PM
That's why the .40 S&W dominates the 9mm...

The evidence doesn't seem to back your claim.

From the contents of the link posted above: "When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:"

Josh3239
04-21-2011, 9:29 PM
You seem to be taking the same position that has been taken so many times by the old school shooters, more dead is better. Just like when AWs first got developed and the government wanted to measure the best cartridge between the 308, 5.56mm and the 7.62x30 so they shot at cadaver heads and counted the amount of skull fragments. At the end of the day, the skull blew up. Who cares?

Btw, my primary home defense handgun is a Glock fotay! and I have 1 x 9mm handgun and 1 x 45.

im sure a FEW still do, but a MAJORITY issue 40 cal

According to a Newsweek article from 2007, 9mm was the majority issue then. I've haven't seen any evidence that it has changed.

Not in the world.

Majority of LE agencies in the USA have adopted .40S&W.

But, worldwide the 9x19mm is still the top dog.

Not to mention 9mm is the most popular sidearm cartridge for militarys around the globe. Considering that it was first adopted by a Western military over 100 years ago is a testiment to just how effective the 9mm truly is.

i wasn't talking about hitting the aorta. in a self defense situation, do you reall think youre going to have time to stop and aim for a vital organ, artery, etc? the answer is simply NO...and im not bagging on it at all. this is the internet, you can't read tone son. im just saying the 40 cal wasn't developed for no reason. it IS 'ballistically' better than the 9mm.

So now we are going from the 9mm isn't strong enough to you cannot shoot accurately if you are forced to draw? If you cannot shoot accurately at a critical location that why bother with a .40? For that matter why even carry, chances are if you cannot aim, you'll just make the situation worse.

1) If you don't aim you aren't going to hit your target. If your gonna aim, you should just as well aim for a critical location.

2) In Iraq our troops were getting so many headshots there were investigations into illegal executions, all of those headshots were not found to be taken at close range. Yes you can aim during a war when there are large amounts of people with machine guns, grenades, artillery, aircraft and tanks. Our troops are trained to be marksmen, but shooting isn't fighting and rangetime doesn't mimic war.

so yes, it was in part because the 9mm was too WEAK...son. don't go blabbing like your mr. know it all either....SON. someone must have pissed in your wheaties this morning because this was not where i intended this thread to go.

Interesting, because the 9mm wasn't too weak for the Germans in WW1 and WW2 in their Lugers, C93, P38 and MP40s. It wasn't to weak for the British in their Stens and Sterlings. It wasn't too weak for the world in the MP5. It wasn't too weak for the Israelis nor the Secret Service in the Uzis. It isn't too weak for militaries and police who carry 9mm Sigs, Glocks, and Berettas (amongst others).

djeddiebear
04-21-2011, 9:30 PM
only got a g23 because my friend was selling it for so cheap. still wanting my g19, hopefully i can find an OD one. it's cheaper and the recoil is a lot better.

ianS
04-21-2011, 9:38 PM
Most .40 and .45 duty loads do tend to work better against intermediate barriers (windshield/car doors). That doesn't mean a good bonded 9mm can't perform just as well either. Regardless, for the rest of us trying to stop a perp behind the steering from running over a fellow officer isn't a likely scenario.

If you shoot a .45 or .40 as well as a 9mm there's no reason not to. But, the vast vast majority of people can't. 9mm is simply an easier to control round. Easier to make good hits under stress and under a variety of scenarios. The law of diminishing returns really kicks in from 9mm and up. You get a little bit more diameter and little heavier bullet weight with .40 and .45 at the cost of less controllability. You gotta go up to a rifle round for a bullet to do more than poke holes. And even they require good shot placement for instant incapacitation against a determined attacker. With a handgun cartridge the question isn't how much more powerful/effective is it? Its, is it adequate for a handgun round? But some people still have delusions of grandeur by going to a .40. Yes, its a good pistol round. But there's no free lunch. And how much are you really getting back in return?

IrishPirate
04-21-2011, 9:38 PM
saying the .40 is more powerful than the 9mm is like saying Kate Hudson is hotter than Kate Beckinsale..........No one can prove it, and it doesn't actually matter because we all want to bang them both.

Colt-45
04-21-2011, 9:43 PM
I shoot 9mm because it's cheap :)

mixwell
04-21-2011, 9:50 PM
Who are we trying to kid.. Everyone knows 9mm is a homosexual round, the .40 is a metrosexual round.. REAL men shoot .45acp because you only need 1 shot to drop someone even if you hit them in the foot.. be a man and shoot .45 because of it's magical "knock down power"

kazman
04-21-2011, 9:52 PM
Because it's there

ehair
04-21-2011, 9:59 PM
Something about the word Parabellum just makes me like the 9.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

zfields
04-21-2011, 10:01 PM
There's enough of a difference for federal and local law enforcement agencies to switch over to .40 ;)

Yea, but the military still uses 9mm....


Your point please?

ninjawho?
04-21-2011, 10:08 PM
Cheap

Vanguard
04-21-2011, 10:10 PM
I shoot 9mm and .45

I don't shoot .40 because I don't want people thinking I'm a cop. ;)

Joe
04-21-2011, 10:12 PM
9mm is easily as effective(ineffective) as .40 and it's cheaper.

Stopping power is a myth and a joke when talking about any handgun calibers. .50bmg or go home.

peter95
04-21-2011, 10:26 PM
9mm, .40 are pretty much same. Unless you are trying to hit someone at 200 yards away, I dont think it'll be a big difference.

With that close of a range, If you get shot, you get shot and you will feel it.

But I dont own a 9mm btw. I own only .40's. Why?... I dont know, I just decided to go the .40 way.

rudeboy3
04-21-2011, 10:26 PM
embed fail

elSquid
04-21-2011, 10:28 PM
If you don't take your time and aim, and you don't hit them in a vital circulatory structure or disable their central nervous system, then you will not stop the threat.

Even if something vital is hit, there are no guarantees.

LAPD officer Stacy Lim was shot in the chest with a 357Magnum. Despite a horrific wound, she fought on and neutralized her attacker.

UhSACg_QWz4

When Doc Roberts talks about having a warrior mindset...that's it right there. When the will is present, a lot of trauma can be temporarily ignored.

Thankfully the good guys won here, but sometimes the bad guys exhibit the same drive to survive.

-- Michael

rudeboy3
04-21-2011, 10:29 PM
pT_C-iJfMe4

J&B
04-21-2011, 10:40 PM
Funny I am in the process of going back to 9mm after 2 years of shooting 40S&W. Just plan on buying some +p jhp ammo. Had a freind that was 265 lbs and solid. He was shot with 9mm ball ammo and guess what he went down. He barely pulled through lucky for him the bad guys didnt know how to aim or clear a malfunction.

cali_armz
04-22-2011, 12:21 AM
another contributing factor here is that larger calibers have more likelihood of going completely through, which means they have not delivered all of the destructive capability of the round.

KIDRR
04-22-2011, 2:19 AM
Everyone on the internet seems to really get into ballistics and these charts. Hardly anyone ever brings up the fact of actually being able to hit what you are aiming at with multiple shots. I'm not talking shot placement, I'm talking about even just hitting your target at all.

For me I own 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W, and .45ACP for the popular auto loader calibers. 40S&W is by far my least favorite, very jumpy even for a big strong guy to shoot. I'd rather be able to plug someone with 10 rounds of 9mm vs maybe a couple of 40S&W

KIDRR
04-22-2011, 2:24 AM
Wow, here's a target from a guy with a .40S&W who posted today. He's a n00b, but this shows how the average non trained person might shoot

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o300/thatkoreannigga/fbfdb943.jpg

sixtus
04-22-2011, 2:41 AM
I'd shoot 9mm because it's easier on the wallet for when I want to go shooting. And the longer I go shooting, the better.

As for home defense, well, that's what the twelve gauge is for.

http://papercut.mercenariesguild.net/Wound/buckshot_1_remington_a.jpg



Son. :P

Target19
04-22-2011, 2:47 AM
I shoot 9mm when I run out of 45.
I don't care about ballistics.
Wear some body armor if you are scared of jhp.
9mm is cheap and it works good enough that is why so many military and law enforcement agencies use it.
NATO and the police are not big on killing people .
War cost money.

Fishslayer
04-22-2011, 5:09 AM
I bought the wife a SIG nine as a natural step up from her .22LR Mosquito. She loves the 1911 .45 but can't really practice a lot with it(yet). She gets tired after a couple of mags. She can shoot the nine all day long.

The .40 just never held any fascination for me, even with 10 rd mags.

Dion
04-22-2011, 5:53 AM
Kate Beckensale is hotter than Kate Hudson, btw.

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

I'm posting this for the 3rd or 4th time, because it seems that people use selective viewing when THE TRUTH is presented. I would rather see a scientific approach with ballistic gel than hear "military and police use it" or conversely "it won't penetrate an aorta".

9mm bullets kill people. End of story. Some need to justify driving a lifted 4x4 monster truck on the mean, extreme terrain streets of Malibu, as some will justify large handgun calibers to make people dead'er.

I shoot 9mm because all the gangster rap of the 1990's told me to. Deep down inside I want a Tec9 so I can see the lights of the Goodyear blimp that says "Dion's a pimp".

robcoe
04-22-2011, 6:32 AM
$$$

pkc168
04-22-2011, 6:39 AM
Why not?

jonzer77
04-22-2011, 6:53 AM
A 9mm might expand but a 45 never shrinks :) I like my 9mm because of pre ban mags and my cz which is turning into one of my favorite guns, not really into the 40 cal though.

M. D. Van Norman
04-22-2011, 6:57 AM
We just had this thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6224874&postcount=95

cryoguy
04-22-2011, 6:57 AM
stopping power is a myth. You stop things with good shot placement.....end of story

I agree! Shoot someone between the eyes with a 9 will have the same effect as a .40 or .45 Cal.

esartori
04-22-2011, 7:00 AM
Cheaper to train/practice with. You can have a pistol loaded up with any cartridge, but if u don't practice with it, they all will perform (miss the target) the same

Bill Steele
04-22-2011, 7:06 AM
can't wait to get my G23 and .40cal setup for my Lee Loadmaster. I keep seeing all these great deals on .40 brass (and nickel) and nothing for .45!!!

No kidding!

I just bought a new .45 ACP (I thought I had kicked that 1911 disease... just when you think you are out, they pull you back in...) and started shopping around for brass. Hell, with all the .40 S&W PD brass, it is almost as cheap a 9mm brass.

Right now, .45 ACP is very dear indeed. Story of my life!

IrishPirate
04-22-2011, 7:25 AM
Kate Beckensale is hotter than Kate Hudson, btw.

would you throw either one out of bed? I think not. :D

9mm bullets kill people. End of story. Some need to justify driving a lifted 4x4 monster truck on the mean, extreme terrain streets of Malibu, as some will justify large handgun calibers to make people dead'er.

Brah, but those streets have hella wicked speed bumps sometimes yo!

I shoot 9mm because all the gangster rap of the 1990's told me to. Deep down inside I want a Tec9 so I can see the lights of the Goodyear blimp that says "Dion's a pimp".

:rofl2: that made my morning, and almost cost Sac State a new computer.....(coffee through the nose) i have to go get cleaned up now :rofl2:



son

ap3572001
04-22-2011, 7:29 AM
There are many reasons.
People who like small pistols to carry are better off with 9mm.
People who can use normal magazines can have MANY more rounds with 9mm,
People who like to shoot/practice a lot with save money with 9mm.
As far as self defense goes, accurate ,fast hit,good tactics win.

ZX-10R
04-22-2011, 7:45 AM
Because it is cheap. Plus my nightstand guns are a WASR and an M&P 45. It allows me to practice in quantity what I cannot do with 45 ammo like I do with 9mm. Plus I have more rounds for 9mm.

voiceoftheright
04-22-2011, 7:47 AM
It's the same thing they said about 5.56 not stopping terrorists high on adrenaline, so we trained for well placed chest and head shots. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. I have no problem with the 9mm round and it would be my sidearm again if given the option, although I would get some better ammo then the ball stuff issued if I could.

Dreaded Claymore
04-22-2011, 7:48 AM
Why not?

himurax13
04-22-2011, 7:54 AM
so you're saying a 9mm round to the chest can take down a 250lb man coming at you as well as a 40 cal will? hmm

You are saying it won't? :confused:

With current Hollow Point Technology, the performance difference between 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP is very small.

The reasons to shoot 9mm.

1. Availability.
2. Price.
3. Large selection of bullet profiles.
4. No one picks up their 9mm brass.
5. Lower recoil.
6. Larger capacity for those who legally possess high cap mags.
- Glock doesn't have a factory 33 round .40 S&W mag ;).
7. Less weight, especially when storing in large quantities.
8. Larger selections of nice pistols to choose from.
9. Kate Beckinsale is much hotter than Kate Hudson. :)

Swiftyjuan
04-22-2011, 7:59 AM
only got a g23 because my friend was selling it for so cheap. still wanting my g19, hopefully i can find an OD one. it's cheaper and the recoil is a lot better.

You can buy a 9mm barrel and a couple of mags for your G23, and you're good to go. While you're at it, pick up a .357 Sig barrel too - 3 guns for the price of 1!

gorenut
04-22-2011, 8:01 AM
I cant wait till they invent ray guns so this debate will finally be over

+1

But I'm sure it'll then become anoter debate.

"Anyone know why anyone would shoot Krypton lasers when Xenon lasers are readily available?"

"Plasma or go home... SON!"

I'll echo those in the 9mm department. I started off shooting 40sw but switched to 9mm last year. Haven't regretted my decision since. I shoot a lot more now, gotten much better, and upon all the info provided... realized the minimal potential increase in performance wasn't worth the cost (with 40).

OutkastJay
04-22-2011, 8:07 AM
saying the .40 is more powerful than the 9mm is like saying Kate Hudson is hotter than Kate Beckinsale..........No one can prove it, and it doesn't actually matter because we all want to bang them both.

Is Kate Hudson the 9mm or Kate Beckinsale because that matters to me.:D

Moto4Fun
04-22-2011, 8:13 AM
Nearly 70 posts before someone brought up the fact that this discussion is already taking place, amazing.

I bought my first two guns in .40 because they are louder and feel more powerful to shoot. When I made that decision, I looked at the price of ammo (retail 10+ years ago) and realized that there was only a 10% difference. I thought that was worth it for a round that was more fun to shoot for a novice. It really showed its value during the ammo shortage during the obama election since .40 was easier to find.

But once I put some time in with 9mm, I realized how much easier it is to shoot well, and decided to convert. While I still have .40, .45, .380, .22, .357, .38 special guns; I intend to put most of my practice and stock in to 9mm.

I have not done the research (other than what gets posted in these debates) but what I am deduced is IF the .40 is that much better than 9mm, .357 sig would be even better. I don't believe .02" diameter makes much difference in the bullet diameter, so if anything, I would rather have the velocity.

HardHatMan
04-22-2011, 8:14 AM
i wasn't talking about hitting the aorta. in a self defense situation, do you reall think youre going to have time to stop and aim for a vital organ, artery, etc? the answer is simply NO...and im not bagging on it at all. this is the internet, you can't read tone son. im just saying the 40 cal wasn't developed for no reason. it IS 'ballistically' better than the 9mm.

The .40 is the 10mm's bastard retarded child. It is a solution to a question that hasn't been asked.

Dark Mod
04-22-2011, 8:17 AM
Cuz you can buy 1000 rounds of 9mm for $160. Its the .22 of the centerfire world

jonzer77
04-22-2011, 8:21 AM
Cuz you can buy 1000 rounds of 9mm for $160. Its the .22 of the centerfire world

Better yet, you can make 1000 rounds for about $90. Since I can make 1000 rounds of 45 for $130 I tend to shoot it more.

SixPointEight
04-22-2011, 8:50 AM
The .40 is the 10mm's bastard retarded child. It is a solution to a question that hasn't been asked.

Unless you say to yourself, can I have a caliber that sits square in the middle of 9mm and .45, fits in a gun the size of a 9mm, and doesn't cost the same as .45GAP/357sig? Then of course .40 is a great answer.

I personally dislike shooting the .45ACP. I was told to get the biggest caliber I was comfortable shooting when I first got my gun. Bought a .40. I now shoot 9mm and .40 exclusively. Everytime I try a .45 it's always "alright" but I shoot terrible with it, and don't like the increased recoil, considering the minimal gains for switching up. With that said, I don't know if I'll ever own a .45. the .40/9mm frame sizes fit my hand so much better, the cost is nicer, they tend to be a whole lot less picky, and IMO, more fun to shoot. Why SHOULD I shoot .45acp?

*flame suit on*

d sauce
04-22-2011, 9:07 AM
Did you say you like Kate Beckinsale? Good! Cause I'll take anything.

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 9:15 AM
If you don't take your time and aim, and you don't hit them in a vital circulatory structure or disable their central nervous system, then you will not stop the threat.

they may eventually die, but you might not live to see it... son.

And this statement is true even if you're using the "vaunted" .40, .45, or any other pistol round.

Fact is ballistically there is very, very little difference between 9mm and .40

tools2teach
04-22-2011, 9:17 AM
Cheap and more capacity if you happen to live outside California. If the miltary uses, why not a 9mm, It's not the stopping power of the 45, it's where you hit that is the damaging. Also more readily available if you SHTF. IMO

If your hunting, you shoot both eyes out and if you come across a bear or a mountain lion. :)

Jack L
04-22-2011, 9:53 AM
Originally Posted by DannyZRC
If you don't take your time and aim, and you don't hit them in a vital circulatory structure or disable their central nervous system, then you will not stop the threat.

And this statement is true even if you're using the "vaunted" .40, .45, or any other pistol round.


^^^This ^^^

HardHatMan
04-22-2011, 10:39 AM
Unless you say to yourself, can I have a caliber that sits square in the middle of 9mm and .45, fits in a gun the size of a 9mm, and doesn't cost the same as .45GAP/357sig? Then of course .40 is a great answer.

Capacity: 9mm>.40
Price: 9mm>.40
Availability: 9mm>.40
Recoil: 9mm>.40
Ballistics with modern ammunition: 9mm=.40
Accuracy: 9mm=.40

I just don't see the point in it unless you are a LEO and are required to carry it.

I personally dislike shooting the .45ACP. I was told to get the biggest caliber I was comfortable shooting when I first got my gun. Bought a .40. I now shoot 9mm and .40 exclusively. Everytime I try a .45 it's always "alright" but I shoot terrible with it, and don't like the increased recoil, considering the minimal gains for switching up. With that said, I don't know if I'll ever own a .45. the .40/9mm frame sizes fit my hand so much better, the cost is nicer, they tend to be a whole lot less picky, and IMO, more fun to shoot. Why SHOULD I shoot .45acp?

*flame suit on*

I shoot all 3 major handgun calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP). I enjoy 9mm and .45ACP the most. I bought the .40 on a whim since I got it for such a good price. The recoil is simply horrible with a .40. I have better follow up shots with a 9mm or a .45. The .40 has a harsh recoil as compared to the small snap of a 9mm and a hard push of the .45. The .40 pretty much stays at home during most range trips.

Each to their own, I guess.

starsnuffer
04-22-2011, 10:40 AM
i wasn't talking about hitting the aorta. in a self defense situation, do you reall think youre going to have time to stop and aim for a vital organ, artery, etc? the answer is simply NO...and im not bagging on it at all. this is the internet, you can't read tone son. im just saying the 40 cal wasn't developed for no reason. it IS 'ballistically' better than the 9mm.

Um, the reason the .40 was adopted had nothing to do with ballistics. Come on, when was the last time any government agency made a decision based on performance?

The .40 is just a shortened 10mm because small/female hands can't hold 10mm pistols when they were being tested. End results is that the thing performs about as good as a +P 9mm, but because all the money/time/tax dollars were invested in it, they had to adopt "something".

And hey, we're american, so bigger is better right?

Look, I don't particularly care for 9mm and have more .40 then 9mm (.45 is my favorite, I like the soft recoil and lack of supersonic crack) but just because I prefer .40 doesn't make it "better".

Shot placement is everything.

:beatdeadhorse5:

-W

c483125117
04-22-2011, 11:12 AM
Price, availability, price.

Lower priced ammo = ability to train more often.

DannyZRC
04-22-2011, 11:19 AM
J.D. Allen, Jack L.

Where you quote me, the argument you're making after quoting me is the argument I'm making in my post. Just FYI.

SixPointEight
04-22-2011, 11:57 AM
Capacity: 9mm>.40
Price: 9mm<.40
I reload, my 9mm loads are JHP and use more powder than my .40 lead loads. It's cheaper for me to shoot .40 than even 9mm.
Availability: 9mm<.40
You don't remember as little as 6 months ago when the only thing on store shelves was .40s&w? 9mm and 45 were off the shelf before they could unload a whole case.
Recoil: 9mm>.40 I'm going to call this opinion. With factory ammo, they are pretty close imo
Ballistics with modern ammunition: 9mm=.40
Accuracy: 9mm=.40

I just don't see the point in it unless you are a LEO and are required to carry it.
Your opinion and you're welcome to it.


I shoot all 3 major handgun calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP). I enjoy 9mm and .45ACP the most. I bought the .40 on a whim since I got it for such a good price. The recoil is simply horrible with a .40 (I would say this about the .45, more than the .40. If someone can find me a .45 that shoots smoother than a .40, I'd love it, but I haven't found it). I have better follow up shots with a 9mm or a .45. The .40 has a harsh recoil as compared to the small snap of a 9mm and a hard push of the .45. The .40 pretty much stays at home during most range trips.


Each to their own, I guess.


In red is the key. That's why I was saying to ME, I love the .40 caliber.

mif_slim
04-22-2011, 1:03 PM
Just curious as to why so many people still shoot 9mm, even those who carry on/off duty use 9mm? with the option of carrying the 40 cal, and almost as many rounds, one would think the stopping power would come into play? is it a cost issue? handle the recoil better?

I've built a callus for recoil in my hands, joints and shoulder...IMHO, I cant tell the difference between 9mm vs 40 vs 45 in recoil. Maybe the days of shooting the 44 DE and the 50 DE got my entire left body numb?? I dunno.. or maybe because the first real recoil gun I ever shot was a Topper 12g break barrel, and that was when I was like 7 years old...anyways, 9, 375, 40, 45... all the "common" calibers are just that... common.

With that said, the 9mm is because its cost effective IF you dont reload. I reload and I try to stay away from diffrent calibers so my collection wont get too expensive that is why I only have 22LR, 17HMR, 22mag, 25acp, 380, 40, 223/556, 300blkout, 7.62x39, 243, 270, 308, 7.62x54r, 30-06, 7mm, 410g, 20g, 12g...from the top of my head. LOL! But i'll be adding a 9mm soon for my ccw. ;)

J.D.Allen
04-22-2011, 1:21 PM
J.D. Allen, Jack L.

Where you quote me, the argument you're making after quoting me is the argument I'm making in my post. Just FYI.

Copying is the sincerest form of flattery ;)

fuenstock
04-22-2011, 1:41 PM
9mm is a great round, the soft recoil means quick follow up shots if you were ever to be in a defensive situation. I don't think there really is a wrong or right caliber to shot. You should shot what every you handle best and can put on your target.

rudeboy3
04-22-2011, 1:49 PM
Something no one has addressed in this caliber debate, I think everyone here would a agree that a 9mm is better than the NOTHING that most of us carry in CA;)

tonelar
04-22-2011, 1:54 PM
Handgun stopping power is a myth. You stop things with a long gun.....end of story

FIFY

gunafficionado
04-22-2011, 2:13 PM
Inexpensive for practice and, with modern loads/ hollowpoints, as good of a stopper as the best of them.

ZombieTactics
04-22-2011, 2:44 PM
In the 9/40/45 range, there is really no significant difference. The 9mm might penetrate a tiny-bit better than the .45ACP in some cases, and the .45ACP might be more accurate through some kinds of barriers in some cases. The .40S&W probably penetrates better than either the 9mm or .45ACP in most cases. It's probably the case that 45ACP is capable of creating a marginally bigger permanent wound cavity. Both .40 and 9mm have flatter trajectories at longer distances, but I don't see that as much of a real advantage in a self-defense gun.

Most of the literature I've read seems to agree that any hit which would be a stopper with one caliber, would be an equally good stopper with the others in this range.

I shoot 9mm mostly because it's what I started with ... if I had started with .45ACP I'd be shooting that instead. I added a couple of .40S&W pistols a couple of years ago just for fun ... I may eventually get bit by the 1911 bug.

JacobSmith
04-22-2011, 2:48 PM
you do realize how contradictory that is right? same speed, different mass, but speed is what counts? 9mm is faster, so by your logic, 9mm should be more "powerful".

9mm hollow points and .40 hollow points penetrate nearly the same.

I think what you were trying to say is that .40 transfers more energy to the target. Yes, we all know and agree with that....but the difference is minimal as both pack more than enough energy to kill a human. It's not like the bigger the bullet gets, the bigger the "kill zone" gets. You can't miss by 3 inches just because your bullet is bigger and expect the same results.

SHOT PLACEMENT IS WHAT'S RESPONSIBLE FOR KNOCK DOWN POWER.

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that the .40 is quite a bit better in terms of energy because it goes nearly the same speed and it has considerably more mass, which really had nothing to do with the equation I presented because the velocity is nearly equal.

The wider the diameter of the bullet, the less aerodynamic it will be. I think you can agree with me on that, right? Therefore it will be less fluidly dynamic, meaning not blood and guts "dynamic." The bullet will more swiftly come to a stop than a needle of the same weight would, correct? That means that one could say that there is more instantaneous stopping power. I'm not saying that it equals more carnage or bodily damage, but it definitely will have different characteristics when it makes contact with its target.

energizer
04-22-2011, 3:04 PM
On Discovery channel one day they interviewed a Navy Seals Captain, He said that they use 9mm. He said he's heard many times that 9mm was underpowered. His answer to that was " When I put two bullets through your heart and one through your head, it's not going to make a difference".

Placement people!!!

Absolutely correct, I have watched that episode.

Josh3239
04-22-2011, 4:01 PM
I feel the same way. Between my 9mm Beretta, my .45 1911, and my .40 Glock, the Glock has by far the most recoil. It is very very snappy to the point were it is a little uncomfortable to shoot. I always fear when teaching a friend to shoot that if I give them the Glock it'll jump out of their hands. The Beretta and the 1911 are super easy to shoot. 99% of the time I take the .40 Glock out, it is wearing the .22LR conversion slide.



I shoot all 3 major handgun calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP). I enjoy 9mm and .45ACP the most. I bought the .40 on a whim since I got it for such a good price. The recoil is simply horrible with a .40. I have better follow up shots with a 9mm or a .45. The .40 has a harsh recoil as compared to the small snap of a 9mm and a hard push of the .45. The .40 pretty much stays at home during most range trips.

Each to their own, I guess.

metuan
04-22-2011, 4:07 PM
Cost and availability.

CALI SHOT DOC
04-22-2011, 4:25 PM
cause 9mm is an awesome round. Don't underestimate 9mm when several are killed a year just by a .22lr. It's cheap to train and most everyone can shoot it without to much issue with the recoil. The 9mm rounds today are just as good as any 40 or 45.

IrishPirate
04-22-2011, 4:39 PM
Is Kate Hudson the 9mm or Kate Beckinsale because that matters to me.:D

Dude, they're both 10(mm)'s :D

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that the .40 is quite a bit better in terms of energy because it goes nearly the same speed and it has considerably more mass, which really had nothing to do with the equation I presented because the velocity is nearly equal.

The wider the diameter of the bullet, the less aerodynamic it will be. I think you can agree with me on that, right? Therefore it will be less fluidly dynamic, meaning not blood and guts "dynamic." The bullet will more swiftly come to a stop than a needle of the same weight would, correct? That means that one could say that there is more instantaneous stopping power. I'm not saying that it equals more carnage or bodily damage, but it definitely will have different characteristics when it makes contact with its target.

i kind of agree with your math, but not with the correlation. I wouldn't consider 180g to be "considerably more mass" than 147g. that's about the difference of a hollow point .22lr.

A .50BMG has a very wide diameter but is very aerodynamic. expansion on hollow point 40's and 9mm's is almost equal. Again, yes the .40 is slightly more, but like myself and SO MANY OTHERS (including ballistic experts) have been saying, it's not enough to trump shot placement. There are lots of variables at play and you can't just pick one or two and draw firm conclusions. The science PROVES that stopping power is a function of whether or not you hit the right bodily organ, which can only be attributed to shot placement. I'm sure .40 makes the whole a little bigger, but when you're dealing with arteries and veins that will drain out in mere seconds, and nerves that cause death when they quit firing, the hole only needs to be so big and even a .22 is capable of making a big enough hole.

Stopping power isn't like in the cop training video games where you shoot the badguy and he backs up and you have to keep shooting them backwards until they reach a certain point and the level is over. It's not about dropping them to their knees, it's about killing them right where they stand. In that case, both rounds provide adequate power to get the job done as long as you can put them in the right place. if you don't put them in the right place, it doesn't matter what you're shooting. don't you agree?

JDW67
04-22-2011, 5:48 PM
Holy crap...again...

Call_me_Tom
04-22-2011, 6:31 PM
Pistols I own are 22LR, 9mm, 40s&w, 45ACP & 357mag. Of all of those calibers I shoot 9mm the most. I use 9mm in IDPA matches & the price of 9mm allows me to practice shooting once a week. When I obtain a CCW I will carry a compact 9mm.

I don't enjoy shooting the 40 for the same reasons as many have already stated, recoil, price & recoil. As a matter of fact, I don't shoot 40 out of my 40, I bought a 9mm barrel for it & shoot 9mm out of it.

Moto4Fun
04-22-2011, 6:52 PM
It's not about dropping them to their knees, it's about killing them right where they stand. In that case, both rounds provide adequate power to get the job done as long as you can put them in the right place. if you don't put them in the right place, it doesn't matter what you're shooting. don't you agree?

I don't agree. Stopping a threat could mean dropping them to their knees, and it could mean sending them running the other direction with their tail between their legs. Of course killing instantly would end the threat as well. The point is, the threat may end when you draw a gun on someone, it may end as soon as they see the flash and hear the bang, some threats might fall down and think they're dead even if they are only hit in the leg with a .22. I believe there is value in having a heavier mass hit the target and stop completely within the target, putting all energy on the threat. I also think the sound of a large caliber would have greater psychological effect as well. But a miss with a large caliber does not make up for precision with a smaller caliber. Especially if you can get 4 or 5 hits on target rather than 1 or 2.

cv0lv0g0
04-22-2011, 7:00 PM
im just going to shove this out here I love the .45 but it does have it limits all rounds do
also i would use 9mm over .40 any day I see it as a waste of money and time when it was being designed because the fbi couldn't stand the 10mm (I use to hunt and is the only glock I would want) and they didn't want to train the people.

cali_armz
04-22-2011, 7:05 PM
Price, availability, price.

Lower priced ammo = ability to train more often.

this is exactly what i was thinking when i bought my g19. the more practice the better

cv0lv0g0
04-22-2011, 7:06 PM
here I had to find it in my picture
and if you want to blab about stopping power meat the mini nuke
http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo191/bfdcostombanners/ammo/10mmgel.jpg

peter95
04-22-2011, 7:14 PM
If you would to get shot on the leg, what would you rather get shot with?

I think this is the proper question :p

bsg
04-22-2011, 7:16 PM
you could say i'm putting the cart ahead of the horse but... some of my favorite handguns are made for the 9mm round; Sig P220, Sig P225, Sig P226, Sig P228, G17, G19, G26.

cv0lv0g0
04-22-2011, 7:20 PM
only 9mm i would like is the baby glock so i really can't say that I only want a glock 20 but I want baby glock if I had to choose a 9mm

SimpleCountryActuary
04-22-2011, 7:26 PM
why not? i shoot all calibers if i can. mostly 9mm and .45acp

I agree. Also 45 Colt, 44-40, and 44 Magnum. Try 'em and see if you like them.

I didn't like 44 Magnum, but then I'm a sensitive soul with sensitive hands and joints.

jwkincal
04-22-2011, 8:11 PM
Stopping power is a myth. Even for long guns.

Kinetic energy and momentum are also poor indicators of terminal performance.

In the range of handgun cartridges, the differences are marginal at best.

If you are a hard-core technologist, this is a good read: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
It deals mainly with rifles and hunting-caliber handguns. But it is the most practical and deterministic analysis I have seen yet.

That said, I shoot a .45ACP because JMB's 1911 is the most natural pointing instrument that has ever been touched by my hand. I have tested many handguns and for me nothing else comes close.

I did like the Glock 26... if I wanted another handgun that would be it.

cv0lv0g0
04-22-2011, 8:14 PM
ya alot of people have already covered that its now a joke and he dude that posted prob a troll

beartrack
04-22-2011, 8:49 PM
Greetings, guys. New to this forum, but have been on many others for many years. I figure since I'm stuck in CA for a while, I might as well join the crowd. Misery loves company. I've yet to own a .40, but I intend to make that my next purchase (probably an XD). My first auto was a .45 and I'm a .45 fan (only have one now, but I've owned 4 differnt ones). But, it is big and heavy. I liked my 10mm, but it has the same problems as the .45 and more recoil.

Maybe if I didn't have a nine, I'd get the .40, but I like the nine. Not all nines are created equal - loved my sigs and my Browning HP, didn't like the Tarus. My Glock 19 (Gen 1, w/ modified frame to imitate the 1911 grip angle) is the size and weight to a steel two inch s&w revolver with 150% more firepower. I've had it a long time and can't imagine a better carry gun. With good ammo, 91-92% one shot incapcitation. Most .40s 92-94%, but with much more "flip" in the recoil of such a light weapon. If I was "planning" on needing a weapon, I'd be taking my .45, or better yet, my 12 Ga., but for small and light and powerful - I like this nine.

jonzer77
04-22-2011, 9:26 PM
Stopping power is a myth. Even for long guns.

Kinetic energy and momentum are also poor indicators of terminal performance.

In the range of handgun cartridges, the differences are marginal at best.

If you are a hard-core technologist, this is a good read: http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
It deals mainly with rifles and hunting-caliber handguns. But it is the most practical and deterministic analysis I have seen yet.

That said, I shoot a .45ACP because JMB's 1911 is the most natural pointing instrument that has ever been touched by my hand. I have tested many handguns and for me nothing else comes close.

I did like the Glock 26... if I wanted another handgun that would be it.

Have you ever tried a cz? I love my 1911's and nothing will ever top them IMHO but the cz is an awesome gun. Once you shoot one you will want to buy one.

IrishPirate
04-22-2011, 9:29 PM
I don't agree. Stopping a threat could mean dropping them to their knees, and it could mean sending them running the other direction with their tail between their legs. Of course killing instantly would end the threat as well. The point is, the threat may end when you draw a gun on someone, it may end as soon as they see the flash and hear the bang, some threats might fall down and think they're dead even if they are only hit in the leg with a .22. I believe there is value in having a heavier mass hit the target and stop completely within the target, putting all energy on the threat. I also think the sound of a large caliber would have greater psychological effect as well. But a miss with a large caliber does not make up for precision with a smaller caliber. Especially if you can get 4 or 5 hits on target rather than 1 or 2.

if you're shooting defensively, why are you trying to do anything but kill? you do realize that the only time you're legally allowed to pull a gun is when your life is in danger....so you're going to show mercy to the guy who is trying to kill you? it's your life to do with what you wish, but becareful who you let find that out....

jonzer77
04-22-2011, 10:56 PM
Like a cop once told me, "a dead man doesn't tell any stories."

WolfInSheeple'sClothing
04-23-2011, 2:19 AM
I shoot 9mm because it's all they had to rent at the range (my CDP PRO II went back to Kimber). But, in all reality, its a commonly available round, cheap, and will get the job done...despite the fact that I choose to defend myself with .45.

Striker
04-23-2011, 9:19 AM
It's the same thing they said about 5.56 not stopping terrorists high on adrenaline, so we trained for well placed chest and head shots. Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting twice. I have no problem with the 9mm round and it would be my sidearm again if given the option, although I would get some better ammo then the ball stuff issued if I could.

This is a great post. Shot placement is everything.

Kyle Defoor said in his blog "Handgun caliber- there is still no conclusive evidence that .40 is better than 9mm as far as terminal ballistics go. There is however plenty of evidence on ranges nationwide that the majority canít handle the felt recoil of a ďmanís gunĒ (i.e- .40 and .45). I would take a proficient shooter with a .22 over a clown with a .45 any day."

Shoot what you shoot best. If that's .45, ok great. But, if 9mm is the largest round you can shoot and place multiple shots on target, so be it. You have to be able to hit what you aim at. Training, practice and mindset are more important than hardware or caliber.

IrishPirate
04-23-2011, 11:13 AM
Training, practice and mindset are more important than hardware or caliber.

+1000

peter95
04-23-2011, 11:16 AM
Like a cop once told me, "a dead man doesn't tell any stories."

LOL... true!

MilSim
04-23-2011, 11:41 AM
I used to think .45 only for HD, but then I got my SP01. Needless to say I was faster and much more accurate with the Sp01 9mm when doing different drills. I have read articles and watched allot of videos, 99.9% of combat/LEO experience say shot placement is key. Ive never had to shoot anyone so I have to base it off the people that know since I dont have any "LIVE" experience. Plus Id have to say if I could(standard caps allowed) Id much rather have my SP01 with 19rds of 124gr. +P than 10rd or 13rds of 230Gr .45, just because that would give me more to work with between reloads in a life or death situation.

+1 on the shot placement is key.

Joe
04-23-2011, 1:17 PM
Wow, here's a target from a guy with a .40S&W who posted today. He's a n00b, but this shows how the average non trained person might shoot

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o300/thatkoreannigga/fbfdb943.jpg

Thats what my targets look like at 25 yards lol.

jd1911
04-23-2011, 1:27 PM
Having worked in the funeral industry for a few years in the past, I save seen quite a few people come in to be embalmed after being shot with small caliber pistol rounds (9 mm and smaller according to the reports from the organizations we picked them up from). I seen people on the table that had been shot with all sorts of different calibers and rounds, all you really see is the entry wound and in some cases the exit wound (as the coroners office would have already removed the organs and placed them in their world famous red bags all jumbled up). I think the point is any caliber can kill depending on certain variables (Shot placement, distance from the weapon when fired, type of round, clothing, all kinds of things you could think of). Just thought I give my opinion.

Ohh by the way, I did consolidate my pistols and had to unfortunately let go of some of the ones that I can no longer afford to shoot regularly. So I do shoot 38 super, 38 spl, 9mm, 45acp and 22lr in pistols with sig 239, browining hp, and glock 34 as my range guns. It just allows mne to train more. but I do have sigs (one in 38 super that I personally am enamored with) and glocks in 45 as well so hopefully the training will be beneficial with the 9mm as they are they are basically scaled down versions of my big boys. The only thing I would need now is a 1911 in 9mm and I life would be fun.

ZombieTactics
04-23-2011, 2:50 PM
The more I read and learn about this issue, the more I believe it gets down to a case of some people wanting the round to do their job for them. Buying a bullet with imaginary super-powers (and suspending disbelief) is much easier than serious training and practice.

I submit that if everyone arguing the issue would take the time they wasted in posting, and instead spent it training ... the issue becomes moot.

... going now to take my own advice.

12voltguy
04-23-2011, 2:58 PM
stopping power is a myth. You stop things with good shot placement.....end of story

good shot placement is the loopphole,lol
I have them all, love my 9s
I carry 22mag
I'm not worried about it not stopping anyone:TFH:

JeepFreak
04-23-2011, 7:02 PM
Price, availability, recoil, capacity, and a proven track record, are at the top of my list.
Billy

l8apex
04-23-2011, 7:27 PM
The more I read and learn about this issue, the more I believe it gets down to a case of some people wanting the round to do their job for them. Buying a bullet with imaginary super-powers (and suspending disbelief) is much easier than serious training and practice.

I submit that if everyone arguing the issue would take the time they wasted in posting, and instead spent it training ... the issue becomes moot.

... going now to take my own advice.

^ this. Sound advice.

You could have the the xyz round, but if your tactics, awareness, marksmanship and OODA loop are off, you got squadoosh.

The efficacy of your round will be a direct result of your proficiency, not the other way around. 9mm lends to more training due to low cost. In any case, no matter how fast / accurate your are with 40 or 45, you will be better with 9mm.

Stay frosty.

p7m8jg
04-23-2011, 7:51 PM
Taught my wife to shoot with a 9mm h&K P7M8. She was more accurate than I.

Darn her hand/eye coordination!

Just taught two newbies at work (both females) to shoot using 9mm glocks. both took to it like a duck to water.

I carry .45 auto Kimber full sized w/light rail. There's no replacement for cubic displacement. But then I shoot it all the time.

9mm is cheaper and easier to find. Shoot what you find in quantity. Frequently.

JayBeeJay
04-23-2011, 8:07 PM
I shoot 9mm mainly for price and better muzzle control. I like shooting all my handguns equally though and I own a 9mm, 40, and 45. Some people on here act like a 9mm bullet won't kill.

aklon
04-23-2011, 8:20 PM
It's fun, it's cheap, it's a good round to warm up with before shooting a real pistol: the 1911.

Reductio
04-23-2011, 8:21 PM
Because I'm a broke-azz college student who needs to practice handgun shooting with both something I can afford to shoot, and that will put down a bad guy.

Cheese & Bacon
04-23-2011, 8:29 PM
"why do you shoot 9mm?"

Because it's the only caliber that fits my glock 19.

Duh

RAymond3
04-24-2011, 9:38 AM
Back in the 60s/ early 70s, I carried the 38, then 357 Mag, then the 9mm. Some bad department experiences with the ball ammo forced adoption of some of the newer hollow point. At that time, I thought I was adequately armed with 9mm. Then, I found myself the target of an attack by a dog pack. Each of the pit bulls took two 124 gr 9mm Remington hollow points to the chest and neck before spinning and running away. Sure both died after some minutes, but it took two shoots each, and neither dropped to the shots. While hunting, I always like seeing my prey fall instantly to the shot if I do my job, even if the size of Elk. So, I will use a cartridge/bullet combo that is capable of that kind of performance. Since I never wanted to have to use two shots to drop any attacker, or animal while hunting again, and went to the 45 (1911 and Sig 220).

The 45 does take more practice to master, and is easier to flinch with if practice is not regular. With the development of bonded higher velocity 9mms, I am now satisfied that they would do the job in a pinch, and have gone back to having the 9m around for defense. I am able, for several reasons, to get lots more practice with it, and have confidence in my shot placement ability. For those times that I can bring children, grandchildren, friends or my wife, the 9mm is far better than the 40 or 45.

Speer 124 +p gold dot, or Federal 147 HST are my favorite defense loads, all in a Glock 17 or 34. The longer barrel does provide enough velocity increase, ease of pointing/ aiming, and reduced felt recoil to make a big difference.

That is not to say that I don't like and use the 40 and 45 too. They are fun and effective. The 357 Sig is also proving to be a super dependable and effective round. Witht the longer barrel, and higher velocity in some newer 9mm rounds, the difference does not seem to be that great. I just find that for a relaxing day at the range, I pick up my 9mm, so I get a lot more practice with it, and have more confidence for that reason, even for home defense.

RAymond3
04-24-2011, 9:45 AM
Thats what my targets look like at 25 yards lol.

Many of the targets by the public at my range look far worse than that. In fact, many have more splatter from ricochets. It is amazing to see so many shots in the ground 5, 10 or more feet in front of the target.

RAymond3
04-24-2011, 9:54 AM
if you're shooting defensively, why are you trying to do anything but kill? you do realize that the only time you're legally allowed to pull a gun is when your life is in danger....so you're going to show mercy to the guy who is trying to kill you? it's your life to do with what you wish, but becareful who you let find that out....

It is important to remember (and to post) that when using a gun in self defense, we do not intend to kill anyone, only to stop the threat to our lives, or the life of our loved ones.

Of course we have a right and duty to protect ourselves and loved ones with equipment and skill that has been determined to be safe and effective (esp as demonstrated by use in the police community).

numsii
04-24-2011, 10:03 AM
In the standard generally available configurations the .45 is the best man-killing ammo at short range. The military has even done live animal tests at the start of the 20th century and observed the carnage it can inflict. Sure it can stop you with one round, but most of us could hit center mass with 2-3 follow on rounds in close quarters.

You just have to have the nerve to shoot someone again and again even when they're begging for mercy.

For functionality, 10mm feels the best, but in a SHTF scenario I'm convinced I'd be out of ammo pretty quick. 9mm is really common, and I just picked up 500 reloads for under $100... so I'm fine with that in our new Obamaized society.

five.five-six
04-24-2011, 10:05 AM
Why do you shoot 9mm?

because I pee sitting down :confused:

gorenut
04-24-2011, 10:14 AM
Like a cop once told me, "a dead man doesn't tell any stories."

You sure it wasn't on the Pirates ride in Disneyland?

jk..

very true though.

rromeo
04-24-2011, 10:14 AM
Like a cop once told me, "a dead man doesn't tell any stories."
I actually heard that 30 years ago on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride at Disneyland.

559luke
04-24-2011, 10:32 AM
I bought a .40 because 9 days ago I had convinced myself that I was going to get a M&P9. I went to buy it and there was not a single M&P9 to be had in the greater Fresno area. Seriously, not a single one. So I got the M&P40 instead.

tbhracing
04-24-2011, 10:42 AM
9mm- When it comes to knock down and stopping power, dont talk to Police Officers, talk to Firefighters/EMTs/Paramedics. We see and work on more people shot and killed than anyone else. Trust me, 9mm has shot and killed a lot of people. There are so many factors when it comes to penetration and knock down- angle point of entry, clothing, body fat, distance, body condition, person's age, muscle tone. ANY bullet can enter and "bounce around" inside the body. Any bullet can not bounce.

If you dont like 9mm, good. I dont like a lot of people on my bandwagon. Send me all of your 9mm ammo (I will cover shipping) and move on.

:chris:

Warhawk014
04-24-2011, 11:07 AM
only mall ninjas talk about gear, i.e caliber, whats the best most reliable handgun, etc.etc.etc.

the trained individual talks about tactics and training. that being said, i learned a long time ago if you cant hit the broad side of a barn with that cannon, its pretty much useless. i own a plethora of calibers that i shoot for fun, but i train with and carry off duty exclusively 9mm. follow up shots are fast and accurate, transitioning between multiple targets is easier. it all comes down to training and mindset. if you train to win with what you got, then you will win. if you hope to win with what you got, then you will lose.

Kanester
04-24-2011, 12:06 PM
3 Reasons I decided on a 9mm as my first handgun.


1. Im Cheap
2. Its a very proven caliber and will do anything I need it for
3. Im Cheap

JayBeeJay
04-24-2011, 12:43 PM
It is important to remember (and to post) that when using a gun in self defense, we do not intend to kill anyone, only to stop the threat to our lives, or the life of our loved ones.

Of course we have a right and duty to protect ourselves and loved ones with equipment and skill that has been determined to be safe and effective (esp as demonstrated by use in the police community).


I don't know about you, but if I ever have to protect myself and/or loved ones against an armed attacker I wont be aiming for their wrist or arms to make them drop their weapon.

JDW67
04-24-2011, 1:02 PM
isn't it, "dead men tell no tales"

Ryan in SD
04-24-2011, 1:08 PM
Just curious as to why so many people still shoot 9mm, even those who carry on/off duty use 9mm? with the option of carrying the 40 cal, and almost as many rounds, one would think the stopping power would come into play? is it a cost issue? handle the recoil better?

Ammo is cheap to practice with, faster at putting more rounds on target, prebans hold a lot more.

glockwise2000
04-24-2011, 1:11 PM
Why 9mm?

It is cheaper to shoot. For like me that has a small frame, recoil if more manageable.

cyanide
04-24-2011, 1:15 PM
People ask this all the time, why get the glock in 9mm and not get the 40 or 45? In my opinion, the 9mm is perfectly fine for any situation when you would need a hand gun. people say "oh well you have to shoot someone like 10 times to get them down with a 9mm." Ok, if thats true, then prove it. 99.9% of people who say this have neither shot someone with a 9mm or 45. If you do find proof that in some situation it took 10 rounds of 9mm to get someone down, you cant prove, that if that was in 45 the person would have been down in fewer shots, sorry, you just cant prove stuff like that. People need to focus more on how they feel shooting the gun, rather than the caliber of the gun. And choose the gun that is right for you. if someone loves 45's and only feels comfortable shooting them, then yeah, get a 45. on the other hand if someone wants to get a 9mm because it best fits them, then get the 9mm. Its all about preference, stop worrying so much about caliber, and get out and practice!

nitroxdiver
04-24-2011, 1:22 PM
9mm- When it comes to knock down and stopping power, dont talk to Police Officers, talk to Firefighters/EMTs/Paramedics. We see and work on more people shot and killed than anyone else.

:chris:

I could not agree more.
J

hchan42
04-24-2011, 2:01 PM
saying the .40 is more powerful than the 9mm is like saying Kate Hudson is hotter than Kate Beckinsale..........No one can prove it, and it doesn't actually matter because we all want to bang them both.

i'm gonna have to go with kate beckinsale is hotter than kate hudson! i can prove it to myself cuz i dig the fact kate beckinsale is bri'ish and has a funny accent! but to each their own! we could always take a survery.....survey says!!

you guys do know if you get shot with a bullet, regardless of the caliber it's going to hurt (A LOT) right? if you can't hit the broadside of a barn with a .40sw why shoot it?

HardHatMan
04-25-2011, 5:38 AM
Originally Posted by HardHatMan View Post
Capacity: 9mm>.40
Price: 9mm<.40
I reload, my 9mm loads are JHP and use more powder than my .40 lead loads. It's cheaper for me to shoot .40 than even 9mm.
Availability: 9mm<.40
You don't remember as little as 6 months ago when the only thing on store shelves was .40s&w? 9mm and 45 were off the shelf before they could unload a whole case.
Recoil: 9mm>.40 I'm going to call this opinion. With factory ammo, they are pretty close imo
Ballistics with modern ammunition: 9mm=.40
Accuracy: 9mm=.40

I just don't see the point in it unless you are a LEO and are required to carry it.
Your opinion and you're welcome to it.


I shoot all 3 major handgun calibers (9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP). I enjoy 9mm and .45ACP the most. I bought the .40 on a whim since I got it for such a good price. The recoil is simply horrible with a .40 (I would say this about the .45, more than the .40. If someone can find me a .45 that shoots smoother than a .40, I'd love it, but I haven't found it). I have better follow up shots with a 9mm or a .45. The .40 has a harsh recoil as compared to the small snap of a 9mm and a hard push of the .45. The .40 pretty much stays at home during most range trips.


Each to their own, I guess.

In red is the key. That's why I was saying to ME, I love the .40 caliber.

- Price: Not everyone reloads. Factory ammo, 9mm is cheaper than .40.

- Availability: I had no problem finding 9mm during that time you stated, but we are also 3,000 miles apart :D

- Recoil: Myself and everyone else I shoot with finds the .40 has a harsher recoil compared to the 9mm and makes follow up shoots harder.

.45ACP for the win :D

CAglock20c
04-25-2011, 8:16 AM
"why do you shoot 9mm?"

Because it's the only caliber that fits my glock 19.

Duh

touche...unless you buy a .40 or .357 sig barrel :D

JayBeeJay
04-25-2011, 8:44 AM
touche...unless you buy a .40 or .357 sig barrel :D

I thought you can only scale down in barrel size and not up?

silaic7
04-25-2011, 8:51 AM
because

http://www.sacredwaste.com/c/real_men_shoot_production_tshirt-p235179028091243934qw5y_400.jpg

Dion
04-25-2011, 8:58 AM
It's fun, it's cheap, it's a good round to warm up with before shooting a real pistol: the 1911.

When I shot my father-in-law's Colt 1911, I felt very little difference in recoil, feel and accuracy compared to my all-steel, full size EAA Witness. I could place shots with both equally.

I feel very confident with my old Witness. I've never shot a modern, tiny, plastic 9mm, so I can't compare. I just feel like I'd be able to place 17 shots very well with my 9mm - and that's all that really matters to me.

CAglock20c
04-25-2011, 11:33 AM
I thought you can only scale down in barrel size and not up?

same size frame as the 23 and 32, as far as i know. by all means, correct me if im wrong

DannyZRC
04-25-2011, 11:37 AM
same size frame as the 23 and 32, as far as i know. by all means, correct me if im wrong

you're wrong, breech face won't accommodate the larger round's case head diameter.

rromeo
04-25-2011, 12:33 PM
same size frame as the 23 and 32, as far as i know. by all means, correct me if im wrong

You may be able to change the slide.

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 12:40 PM
A few quotes from Gabe Suarez:

In my educated and experienced opinion, ALL handgun calibers will do about the same things in flesh. I have had ER docs tell me directly that it is impossible to tell what caliber a bullet is in the ER by the damage it does.
...
Anything in 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Sig, 45 ACP, 38 Sp. will work about the same. So CHOOSE WHAT YOU LIKE. As I said, mine is a Glock 17 with three magazines of Corbon DPX (and a couple of happy sticks thrown in).
...
The secret to dropping the adversary is not the caliber, it is the volume and the placement. Period.


Other 9mm adherents include Chuck Taylor, James Yeager, Andy Stanford and Jim Grover

My personal choice is .40S&w or 9mm ... depending on mode of dress and carry ... no problem with anyone else carrying anything they like.

Choose what you can shoot well, and train to shoot as well as you can. Everything else is some combination of vanity and BS.

sleepr66
04-25-2011, 12:46 PM
Why do i shoot 9mm? Because its fun, cheap, does the job (if your gonna shake off a 9mm to the chest, id say **** the 40cal wheres the 12 gauge).

AND when SHTF and three years down the line ill be roaming with many full magazines of 9mm (being the most commonly produced round). Be sure to tell all the zombies how you could so easily drop them in one shot...had you have that one shot.

tacticalcity
04-25-2011, 1:03 PM
Well, right now I shoot 45ACP. But I actually prefer 9mm. Why? Speed is just as important as accuracy and just as important as the amount of damage each round can cause. Two separate 9mm wound channels are much more deadly than one 45ACP wound channel. This is not a one shot one kill world. Thinking in those terms will get you killed. Your goal is as many rounds into the bad guy as you can get before he puts a round into you. Additionally, there is no guarantee the bad guy will be alone. So the speed at which you can transition between multiple bad guys is also critical. Some people are blessed with greater strength and reaction time than others. So they can work really fast with a 45ACP. Fast enough that the extra umpf they get from the cartridge is worth the amount of speed they loose because for them it is much smaller amount than for everybody else. However, for the majority of us, including many who think the 45ACP is the round for them, could really benefit from dialing it down a notch. I know I certainly could.

My father is one of those who thinks bigger is always better. He shoots a .357 Magnum but would prefer a 44 magnum if his old shoulders could still stand it. When you watch him shoot it is like somebody grinding their nails on a chalk board. He takes forever and day between his shots and is just not tactically oriented in his mindset or approach. He puts all his faith in the knockdown power, and none on speed or training. In his mind there is one bad guy standing the middle of a wide open road at 50 paces (not really but you get where I am headed).

I tend to be much more pessimistic. When I picture that dark day that I hope never comes, there are a bunch of heavily armed guys, all trained, all using good tactics, and all my worst nightmare. For me it is about trying to prepare for the worst case scenario. The odds of ever needing to use my firearm in self defense are slim to be sure but I prefer to be prepared. If I am going to take the time to prepare, I might as well prepare for the worst.

So why do I shoot 45ACP right now? I picked up a 1911 for the heck of it, and got suckered into selling off my Glock 19. When I can afford it, I'll end up picking up another Glock.

yoitsbruce
04-25-2011, 1:25 PM
i shoot 9mm,.40sw & 44 mag. soon o will get a .45 of my own. 9mm is real nice control and to reacquire targets quickly. .40 people say is snappy but it doesnt matter to me i can still get good groups with them all. 9mm no matter what barrel length always has a smooth action. i do like double taps with .40 but it really only matters to the shooter. cant really go wrong with any calibur you shoot

Quickdraw Mcgraw
04-25-2011, 1:29 PM
If you would to get shot on the leg, what would you rather get shot with?

I think this is the proper question :p



:chris:Having been shot thru both legs with a 9mm...I'd choose 9mm!


Seriously you guys are always talking bout all the same stuff! What I'd like to hear is someone who has stats on stopping threats with 9mms an .40s.

When I went to Front sight they claimed that FBI stats proved that .45acp, .40S&W and .357mag outta 4"barell are all major calibers ie. one shot stoppers when center mass is targeted.

9mm is on their list of minor callibers where 2 center mass shots are always to be taken. As always I rely on those more knowlagable than myself, but those guys seem to know whats up at Front sight so its interesting to hear diffrent here.

PS really don't let anyone shoot you with any caliber...it really hurts and will totally ruin your day:cool2:!

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 1:37 PM
...
When I went to Front sight they claimed that FBI stats proved that .45acp, .40S&W and .357mag outta 4"barell are all major calibers ie. one shot stoppers when center mass is targeted. ...
There is a lot of "gun lore" which gets passed around - kind of like a game of "telephone" - and can't be trusted as authoritative.

I am an FS Diamond member ... nothing against the school and its staff.They do tend to be of the "Cooper cult of 1911/.45ACP" mentality, though.

Ask someone to validate or document those "FBI stats" and you'll quickly find out there really is no such thing.

Jimmy310
04-25-2011, 1:52 PM
Dont 60% of police departments in the U.S. still issue 9mm's?

NickfurY
04-25-2011, 3:14 PM
I shot a 9mm just because i was something that isn't too pricey on the ammo's but i'm going to be doing my own reload. I got my Ruger P95 mainly becasue i like it and the a cost efficicent pistol and its something that my wife can handle as far and recoil goes..It actually feel just like my 45ACP..

ZombieTactics
04-25-2011, 3:50 PM
Dont 60% of police departments in the U.S. still issue 9mm's?
It depends on how you look at the stats. MOST police departments probably allow "officers choice" in 9mm. 40S&W or .45ACP. I've seen polls of officers showing that the choice goes down roughly like this (from memory):
50% = .40S&W
30% = 9mm
20% = .45ACP

I have a suspicion that the .40S&W is popular because it's the FBI choice, and that the 9mm is the favorite of round-count wonks. The .45ACP is probably the choice of 1911 fans.

luckygunner
04-25-2011, 4:17 PM
I have access to some high capacity magazines so for me the capacity is tops. I also prefer shooting 9mm in general. It's easier to control and I got used to it while in the military. I have other calibers also, but the 9mm is cheaper to purchase and cheaper to reload. Even cast bullets are cheaper to make.

Hoooch
04-25-2011, 4:31 PM
Because I can get more shots on target, accurately, in a shorter amount of time with 9mm than with any other round. It just works for me.

duc748bip
04-25-2011, 5:09 PM
9mm vs. 40SW? the difference are only statistical.
so you're saying a 9mm round to the chest can take down a 250lb man coming at you as well as a 40 cal will? hmm

WW2Buff
04-25-2011, 6:28 PM
Because I don't need any more punch for targets, matches and (gasp!) think that it is more than capable as a defensive round. That's also coming from a guy who has a few .45s and loves them.

Cato
04-25-2011, 6:33 PM
recoil and capacity

I am of the philosophy that I want more shots that are easier to shoot. The 40 has more recoil and the 45ACP has too little capacity compared to a 9mm. If you can't stop an enemy with a 9mm, a 40, 45, or 357 won't either. At least with a 9mm, you'll have more chances.

If the FN 5.7 was available with +10 mags, I'd be all over that pistol.

USMC 82-86
04-25-2011, 6:48 PM
I can tell you one big reason is it is cheaper, you can practice more for less money. The recoil is easy to manage. When I shoot I practice with both hands and strong hand and offhand. I can tell you that at 20 ft I could get my first shot on a paper plate with one hand in just under 2 seconds with the .45 and follow up with 2 more hits in 3 seconds. My .40 was right at 2 seconds with a hit and only 1 hit in 3 seconds as a follow up. With the 9mm and it was a rental by the way I got my first hit in 1.4 seconds and had 4 follow up hits in 3 seconds. .45 I had 3 hits total not bad in just under 5 seconds total. The .40 gave me 2 total hits on the same paper plate in 5 seconds. The 9mm gave me a total of 5 hits in 4.4 seconds. The .40 is the one I have had the most trigger time on and can shoot about a 4" group at 10 yds with both hands at a fast pace. One hand makes a huge difference. When I slow my pace I can put 10 rds in a hole that can almost be covered with a quarter. If you want to check your combat accuracy shoot one handed left and right at 20 ft and use the same method I did. I saw it on personal defense from Midway USA. Load the weapon lay it on the counter top in the range. Have someone ready with a timer capable of splits pick up the weapon on command aquire the target and send the round, this is your first time. Now fire as many shots on target as you can in 3 seconds only hits count. All of this is continuous don't stop after first shot finds its target. This will wake you up to muzzle control. Guess what if you ever have to pull your weapon do defend yourself you may not have time for both hands and a text book sight picture. That is why I am now shooting a G19 I can get more hits on target fast and accurate. Good enough reason for me. Trust me and if you are honest how many times do you see people on the range who can't keep all their rounds on paper with a two hand hold at 7 yds. Forget about the center of mass, I don't want to be next to those people on the range during this drill. When I am not on the clock I can take that same .40 and keep my rounds all within the paper plate at 20 ft. on the clock I only got 4 shots off and had 2 hits 5 seconds 2 hits. I like my chances better with 5 hits in 4.4 seconds. But that is just me. Maybe you can get 5 hits with a larger caliber if so good for you. By all means shoot what you shoot best. Size doesn't always mean better control, I am 6'2" and 265 lbs. Trigger and muzzle control are the key.

GunSafari
04-25-2011, 7:49 PM
74 hi-power puts the mark on the target just where i want it everytime not to mention its one pretty gun...

ammo is inexpensive compared to the .45, and you got 5 more rounds in your magazine just in case your finger slips right?

J-cat
04-25-2011, 7:52 PM
The 9 is fun to shoot and reload for. The brass is inexpensive. You can hotrod the 9 to match 357 Sig ballistics. It is an incredibly efficient cartrige.

Jimmy310
04-26-2011, 7:16 AM
The 9 is fun to shoot and reload for. The brass is inexpensive. You can hotrod the 9 to match 357 Sig ballistics. It is an incredibly efficient cartrige.

If you dont mind sharing your load data, PM me info. Id love to try some hot loads.

Before i reloaded, i bought these 95gr federal 9mm jacketed soft point rounds that were for british law enforcement. The rounds didnt expand as well as they wanted to so they went up for sale in the us for cheap. These rounds were pretty hot and chrono'd out of a 4" barrel @ 1400fps.

J-cat
04-26-2011, 7:59 AM
Just go to brianenos.com and look for yourself. There is a ton of MajorPF data, but understand you will have to get a stronger recoil spring.

SixPointEight
04-26-2011, 8:13 AM
Also note that by loading 9x19 to major specs you will be over SAAMI specs and pushing the limits of the cartridge. Make sure your loading technique is DIALED. A small slip up could cause some big issues.

I feel obligated to add, most people are deluding themselves into thinking it's a safe load, when it's not. A lot of people are using small rifle primers, to eliminate pressure signs. Only..they aren't lowering pressure. They are hiding it. A measurement of the case head will likely show how far over max they are. Lots of these people are using non-factory barrels, which are throated for a vary long OAL. If you insist on trying it, load as long as you can safely, in new, single headstamp brass. I would suggest culling by weight as you would for match rifle ammo. If you doubt me, here's the velocities needed to make major in a 9mm:
115 gr - 1435 fps
124 gr - 1331 fps
147 gr - 1122 fps
That's 10-15% over what most manual list at the highest loads. And remember, pressure and velocity are not linearly related. You will be in the range of 30-40% over SAAMI pressures in order to get these. To put this in perspective, 9mm +P is 10% over, and +P+ is 15% over. NATO load specs sit just under +P spec. And the 9mm proofing load, while I don't know the exact number, is on the order of 25-30% over the SAAMI max. In other words, you will likely be setting off a round that is HOTTER THAN YOUR BARREL WAS PROOFED TO HANDLE.

To those other than J-cat and jimmy, don't even think about this stuff if you're starting out. And if you don't compete in action pistol shooting, there's plenty of toasty hot 9mm loads, even though they don't "make major" that are plenty safe to use. If you're wondering why I said all this...I thought about chasing a 9mm major load, until I learned all this, not for me thanks.

J.D.Allen
04-26-2011, 8:26 AM
You just have to have the nerve to shoot someone again and again even when they're begging for mercy.


Am I the only one that has a problem with this???

DaveFJ80
04-26-2011, 8:26 AM
I have a few thousand rounds of .45 ACP, and only a couple thousand rounds of 9mm. I like shooting both equally, since they're both fun to shoot in certain guns that I have.

However, if I had to choose just one, then I'd choose the 9mm because....

- it's cheaper
- easier to find (at local stores.... I buy my ammo online)
- it's lighter to carry (try carrying mag pouches with both 9mm & .45 and see how it feels over time)
- it's lighter to transport in my BOB
- current HST JHP is just about as good as .45 HST JHP (I have both & tested both)
- I can hold more rounds in my pre-ban mags.... 23 rounds of 9mm vs 17 rounds of .45

evidens83
04-26-2011, 8:30 AM
I already answered this question a couple days ago (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=422091)....

JTROKS
04-26-2011, 8:39 AM
It's cheap, lots of ammo, lots of bullets, lots of brass and most of all if you have a gun that can shoot the +p+ fodder then it's an excellent defensive gun.

sanjosebmx
04-26-2011, 10:08 AM
I shoot a .40 cal and don't have problems grouping double (even triple) taps within my 6" target / center mass...

I did have the chance to shoot a Browning HiPower last night (in 9MM, that may be the only way they come...) but anyway that Browning 'felt' to me like a .22 .. I was switching between my Primary gun and the borrowed Browning...

I'm sure the 9mm is a fine round, and multiple shots on target should be no problem with this gun anyway....

The Browning has very low recoil, is that a function of the gun (being heavier) or the round?

JDW67
04-26-2011, 10:28 AM
I already answered this question a couple days ago (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=422091)....

Seriously, but at least you can bump your post count...:D

edit: Holy crap, you don't need to bump your post count, you're already in the 5 grand range...

DannyZRC
04-26-2011, 11:36 AM
Am I the only one that has a problem with this???

I doubt it.

tacticalcity
04-26-2011, 11:59 AM
9mm vs. 40SW? the difference are only statistical.

Big difference in feel. 40S&W has a very snappy recoil that I never liked. 9mm is a lot more gentle. Of course, round choice plays a role as well. There are specialty rounds that can make a 9mm feel extremely harsh.

As far as the statistics go, mathmatically the 40S&W has the best mix of actual recoil and knockdown power. However, actual recoil and felt recoil are a different animal all together. One deals stricktly with the amount of force, the other includes additional factors that affect the way it impacts the shooter.

When it comes to felt recoil, I actually like the 45ACp over the 40S&W. Not as snappy.

PewPewBob
04-26-2011, 4:10 PM
I shoot 9mm simply for the cost of the ammo...;)

CA PI
04-27-2011, 8:06 PM
Am I the only one that has a problem with this???
No, I too have a REALLY big problem with that statement...

CA PI
04-27-2011, 8:10 PM
Matter of fact - numsii, there are some very important words you should remember... "Sir, you have the right to remain silent. If you give up that right..."

Mad Scotsman
04-27-2011, 8:10 PM
On Discovery channel one day they interviewed a Navy Seals Captain, He said that they use 9mm. He said he's heard many times that 9mm was underpowered. His answer to that was " When I put two bullets through your heart and one through your head, it's not going to make a difference".

Placement people!!!

^^^
THIS.

Jack L
04-27-2011, 8:11 PM
Am I the only one that has a problem with this???

Makes me feel kind of creepy like a snuff movie.

rdsii64
04-28-2011, 3:23 PM
Cost, cost, and cost. No matter what caliber you shoot, if you are not proficient with your weapon, you will fail under preassure. The 9mm is cheaper to shot than the other two choices. For the price of 100 pieces of 45 ACP brass, I can buy 100 loaded rounds of 9mm. 250 rounds of UMC is 50.00 at walmart. Right now, 9mm ammo is so cheap that its not worth the effort to hand load. I do however save my brass should that change.

Quiet
04-30-2011, 3:25 PM
debating caliber wars = :beatdeadhorse5:

:threadjacked:
According to a Newsweek article from 2007, 9mm was the majority issue then. I've haven't seen any evidence that it has changed.
This is in regards to the state law enforcement agencies in the USA.
Circa 2001...
9x19mm = 12
.357SIG = 4
.40S&W = 27
10x25mm = 1
.45GAP = 0
.45ACP = 6

Circa 2010...
9x19mm = 3
.357SIG = 8
.40S&W = 27
10x25mm = 0
.45GAP = 5
.45ACP = 7

Peter W Bush
04-30-2011, 3:49 PM
Because I can easily fit 20 rounds of it in my 92FS, because my Beretta and Sig and P7 are VERY accurate with it and follow up shots are also quick and accurate. Because practice ammo and components are cheap. Because there is so much of it available and there always will be if SHTF. Because shot placement is more important than caliber, no matter what anybody says. Because there is just about no chance anybody will survive a 9mm projectile traveling over 1000fps through their brain stem.

Also... .40 IMO is a more useless caliber than 9mm these days. If I want to shoot something with more power, I shoot .357 SIG anyway.

bcj128
04-30-2011, 3:58 PM
There's enough of a difference for federal and local law enforcement agencies to switch over to .40 ;)

I'm on the range staff of a medium sized agency, and spear-headed the switch to .40 in 1997. Local agency compatibility, better ballistics, and Glock doing a 1 for 1 trade with new guns were the biggest selling points. It was a good switch back then....

Now, we have a lot of people switching to 9mm for a lot of the reasons brought up above. Advances in ammunition, better handling, longer gun life, etc have all held sway. Also, the waning of the 1911/45 ACP worship has dropped some, and people want - more rounds for a sustained firefight, easy control, etc...

inspectorjj
04-30-2011, 4:00 PM
I couldn't have said it better Mr. Bush. I hope you don't mind me using that quote for my signature of course. I just got to fire my Glock 19 today that I just recently aquired from a fellow Calgunner. I love it. Perfect size for me. I was very surprised by the accuracy at 10 meters. I could cover all ten shots with my hand.


Because shot placement is more important than caliber, no matter what anybody says. Because there is just about no chance anybody will survive a 9mm projectile traveling over 1000fps through their brain stem.

SpectreZ91
04-30-2011, 4:28 PM
I'm picking up my Beretta 9mm in 9 days.

I'm shooting a 9mm cause that's what Mel Gibson had in Leathal Weapon! :D

Cost/recoil is why I bought it. I can shoot it cheaper and hopefully be more acurate with it then I would of with the 40 cal. Also if I go out shooting with my friends most of them have 9mm so we can share ammo.

I've read a lot of people saying bigger is better.. So why doesn't all those people skip the .45 all together and go with the Desert Eagle 50 cal? By the "bigger is better" statement should it be the best? lol

Edit:

I was just thinking.. if someone comes into my house.. Gets past my 3 big dogs and I can't stop them with 8 .00 buck shots from the 12 gauge and 20 shots from the 9mm there's 1 of 2 things wrong. They are just that freaking awesome or I just suck that bad. Either way I'm screwed and I might as well just load 1 more round to take myself out quick and easy. :D

ROTC sniper
04-30-2011, 5:10 PM
Because I can train with my Glock 34 and not break the bank. Less recoil, greater sight acquisition after first shot and high capacity to put more lead into the BG.

tacticoolguy
04-30-2011, 7:14 PM
I shoot 9mm because of cost and low recoil. And for a while it was the only caliber other than .22lr I had.

trento
05-03-2011, 8:08 PM
I love a good religious war. I'm new to this forum and just found this thread.

I've had a CA CCW for about six years now, and have carried the following guns:
Years 1&2 NAA Guardian in .380ACP, Kahr 9mm, Glock 27 .40S&W
Years 2&4 Kahr 9mm, Glock 27 .40S&W, Glock 30 .45ACP
Years 5&6 Keltec P3AT .380ACP, Kahr PM9 9mm, H&K USPc .40S&W

I provided the above to help explain my rationale-- I've always thought .380ACP and .38SPL +P were the absolute floor for anything worth carrying. My carry needs often change as a white-collar security consultant; I often can't carry what I want to because of concealment limitations, and are often limited to pocket pistol-class arms. Thus explains the .380's that I've had on my CCW permit (limited to three guns.) Having said that, I can honestly say that I've carried the NAA Guardian and Keltec P3AT a combined total of less than a dozen times. I guess I'm rarely in that lap-dance-while-in-a-black-tie situation that would require such discrete carry.... For the most part, then, I carry that Kahr PM9 in >90% of all situations, while at work or around town. I can say however, that I feel I am sacrificing a lot, even when carrying that PM9, much less any .380-- I only feel really secure carrying my "compact" .40's, like my USP compact.

I am an excellent shot. even with that Keltec, with a 2-1/2" barrel, I can sustain fire 20rds into the 10 ring at 21 feet, without any fliers. With the bigger guns like the USP, I can place >200 rds into the 10 ring at the same distance. So I have no perceived issues concerning shot placement, per se. But when the sh*t hits the fan and I have an option to, I'm grabbing that H&K USP in .40S&W.

I also shoot a fair amount in general, at least 500 rds a month. My favorites are my Sig Sauer X5 Tactical in 9mm, and my S&W 5906, also in 9mm. Low cost and low recoil define my love with 9mm at the range; I do notice, however that my.40's seems to be more accurate than my 9's, with the most definite exception of my S&W 952. I'd have to say that in at least 'service' weapons, .40S&W is IMHO inherently more accurate. Part of me, does say however, that this may be due in part to the greater follow-up time introduced by the greater recoil of the .40... I may have to do some time trials to figure this one out.

For my CCW renewal in September, I'm changing AGAIN to the following--
1. Kahr PM40 in 40S&W
2. HK USPc in 40S&W
3. Sig Sauer P229 in 40S&W

Why? Because last month, I actually pulled my HK in a self-defense situation (no shots fired) and held a suspect for 4 minutes before the police arrived. I realized at that point that I felt "confident" (not completely sh*tting my pants) because I had a capable gun with capable ammo that I was proficient at using. IF I had a HK USPc in 9mm, I probably would've felt 80%+ as confident, but I KNEW, if I had to, I could've stopped any of the three [initial] assailants with single shots of .40S&W. No question.

I hope this answers the original poster's request more closely, as to the why's of my .40S&W for defense, 9mm for the range question better than "NYPD & U.S. armed forces uses 9mm, so it must be good" argument.

Just my $0.02,
-Trento
P.S.: Kate Beckinsale, hands down.

shocknm
05-03-2011, 8:30 PM
coz mane, i can put 33 a dem in mah glock sebenteen clipz.

Rhythm of Life
05-03-2011, 8:43 PM
Why do I shoot 9mm?

Its cheap
Gets the job done
17-26 round mags available for CZ's

I like knowing in my 2 mags I have 42 combined rounds.

foxtrotuniformlima
05-06-2011, 6:51 PM
I shoot 9x19 because of cost. At one point, I use to shoot 3000 rds a month in practice and competition.

The cost difference from 9x19 to 40S&W to 45ACP is huge.

Brass is sort of negligible do to reuse but the difference in bullet cost is crazy: $ 75 / K vs $ 120 vs $ 135.

carnelianbay
05-06-2011, 10:13 PM
Itís only recently that I jumped on the 9mm bandwagon. I bought it because those heavy 40oz 1911ís are starting to sag on my old body, blaaaÖ., and thought that Iíd give plastic a try. I really hesitated because I didnít like having to stock yet another caliber. Shooting 1911ís for over 25 yrs I can honestly say that I can shoot a 3Ē 1911 much better than the M&P9c.

As I age I do like the idea of no safety and no condition 1 carry, and with the Apex sear that 9c trigger really isnít too bad. IMO the recoil of the 9mm is that of a pea-shooter (okay flame me). It does make for a lot of fun during a dueling-tree shoot or for a FASTest but for PD Iíd definitely run HST +Pís if I was forced to carry a 9. Sure the ammo is cheap but letís be realistic, shooting a case of ammo every 1-2 months is not the norm. If I shoot 2 boxes a month Iím lucky, and the $ difference is chump-change. In retrospect if I was to buy another 9 it would be an EMP. But then whatís the point since itís almost the same weight as the 3Ē 45.

I must admit though, whenever I see a dueling-tree I pull out the 9 and smile. Did I really say that? :D

mif_slim
05-06-2011, 10:23 PM
9mm vs 40sw vs 45acp recoil.... I don't think it matters.... It's how you train, at least from my experience..

AMJLgYkpFHk

hawk81
05-07-2011, 12:29 AM
Because I can carry 19 +1 rounds in my CZ SP-01, and it is almost equal to a .357 magnum with the right ammo.

Peter W Bush
05-08-2011, 9:39 AM
How is 9mm Luger almost equal to 357 magnum??

vintagearms
05-08-2011, 9:48 AM
:beatdeadhorse5: Seriously people? Go out and shoot. Its shot placement anyway...

hotfire
05-08-2011, 11:32 AM
Its cheap so I can got shooting more often. Plus recoil is easier to manage and its fun to introduce friends and family to firearms on a small caliber.

jonzer77
05-08-2011, 11:56 AM
because I pee sitting down :confused:


LOL!!

CAglock20c
05-23-2011, 7:15 PM
I love a good religious war. I'm new to this forum and just found this thread.

I've had a CA CCW for about six years now, and have carried the following guns:
Years 1&2 NAA Guardian in .380ACP, Kahr 9mm, Glock 27 .40S&W
Years 2&4 Kahr 9mm, Glock 27 .40S&W, Glock 30 .45ACP
Years 5&6 Keltec P3AT .380ACP, Kahr PM9 9mm, H&K USPc .40S&W

I provided the above to help explain my rationale-- I've always thought .380ACP and .38SPL +P were the absolute floor for anything worth carrying. My carry needs often change as a white-collar security consultant; I often can't carry what I want to because of concealment limitations, and are often limited to pocket pistol-class arms. Thus explains the .380's that I've had on my CCW permit (limited to three guns.) Having said that, I can honestly say that I've carried the NAA Guardian and Keltec P3AT a combined total of less than a dozen times. I guess I'm rarely in that lap-dance-while-in-a-black-tie situation that would require such discrete carry.... For the most part, then, I carry that Kahr PM9 in >90% of all situations, while at work or around town. I can say however, that I feel I am sacrificing a lot, even when carrying that PM9, much less any .380-- I only feel really secure carrying my "compact" .40's, like my USP compact.

I am an excellent shot. even with that Keltec, with a 2-1/2" barrel, I can sustain fire 20rds into the 10 ring at 21 feet, without any fliers. With the bigger guns like the USP, I can place >200 rds into the 10 ring at the same distance. So I have no perceived issues concerning shot placement, per se. But when the sh*t hits the fan and I have an option to, I'm grabbing that H&K USP in .40S&W.

I also shoot a fair amount in general, at least 500 rds a month. My favorites are my Sig Sauer X5 Tactical in 9mm, and my S&W 5906, also in 9mm. Low cost and low recoil define my love with 9mm at the range; I do notice, however that my.40's seems to be more accurate than my 9's, with the most definite exception of my S&W 952. I'd have to say that in at least 'service' weapons, .40S&W is IMHO inherently more accurate. Part of me, does say however, that this may be due in part to the greater follow-up time introduced by the greater recoil of the .40... I may have to do some time trials to figure this one out.

For my CCW renewal in September, I'm changing AGAIN to the following--
1. Kahr PM40 in 40S&W
2. HK USPc in 40S&W
3. Sig Sauer P229 in 40S&W

Why? Because last month, I actually pulled my HK in a self-defense situation (no shots fired) and held a suspect for 4 minutes before the police arrived. I realized at that point that I felt "confident" (not completely sh*tting my pants) because I had a capable gun with capable ammo that I was proficient at using. IF I had a HK USPc in 9mm, I probably would've felt 80%+ as confident, but I KNEW, if I had to, I could've stopped any of the three [initial] assailants with single shots of .40S&W. No question.

I hope this answers the original poster's request more closely, as to the why's of my .40S&W for defense, 9mm for the range question better than "NYPD & U.S. armed forces uses 9mm, so it must be good" argument.

Just my $0.02,
-Trento
P.S.: Kate Beckinsale, hands down.

i think they only allow 2 pistols on ccw's now...atleast in my county they do

bubbapug1
05-23-2011, 9:08 PM
To those who poo poo a 9mm I think they should show us how weak it is by rigging up a line and a rack for one and shooting themselves in the chest to prove it has no stopping power at 10 yards.

So...who is first?

SixPointEight
05-23-2011, 9:10 PM
i think they only allow 2 pistols on ccw's now...atleast in my county they do

In Sac they allow 3

NorCalDustin
05-23-2011, 9:11 PM
If you research it very well you'll see with modern bullet design (Black talon/hydrashock are not modern designs) that there is not a huge difference in ballistics between the 3 powerhouse handgun calibers. (9/40/45)

Price, ease of controlling the recoil, are the two main factors, at least for me.
Same...

Realistically, Like you said... With modern bullet design, there is very very little difference between the calibers. More important is shot placement.

With 9mm, I can practice more because of the price... Because there is less recoil, I can then put more shoots, accurately, on a target much faster.

Stone
05-23-2011, 9:52 PM
If the .40 S&W were completely superior to the 9mm then we wouldn't have discussions like this because nobody would be making or using the 9mm.

Fact is, there are many tradeoffs, and different rounds are better for different circumstances.

All other things being equal, a single shot from the .45 ACP will likely do more damage than a single shot from the .40 S&W, and the .40 S&W will do more damage than the 9mm. But all things are not equal, and doing more damage is not beneficial if one is already doing lethal damage or sufficient damage to stop the threat.

In comparison to the 9mm, the .40 S&W has lesser capacity (even if its just 1 less), and more recoil, which means it takes more time to get back on target. In a defensive scenario you can't buy time, and you can't buy extra ammo, so this could result in fewer shots on target. Two hits from a 9mm is surely more deadly than 1 hit from the .40 S&W.

Also, a single well placed shot from either 9mm, .40S&W or .45 ACP will be fatal...or stop the target...whereas a poorly placed shot from any of them will probably not. Therefore, in my opinion, a man armed with a 9mm who can unload more bullets more accurately is more formidable.

However, one must also consider the potential uses. .357 sig or .40 S&W are both better at hard barrier penetration than the 9mm and this is something that may be important for a police officer, but should not really be important to a civilian CCW.

Milspec714
05-24-2011, 7:31 AM
Because i have these...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvhQOLYJVqkMix-z4-hBH69dKJnw4MvJET_CE3EgEkpQxR4edMUw

then after they go bang they do this

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRka0v7J1nufP8_yZY86VZbjeDwKIFJs mqPmi70oyup3-g2nKmcnQ

shooterdude
05-24-2011, 8:05 AM
Because i have these...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvhQOLYJVqkMix-z4-hBH69dKJnw4MvJET_CE3EgEkpQxR4edMUw

then after they go bang they do this

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRka0v7J1nufP8_yZY86VZbjeDwKIFJs mqPmi70oyup3-g2nKmcnQ

In this day and age given the state of the art in defensive ammunition having reached the point of perfection in damage against human targets only a fool argues the differences in 9mm, .40 and .45 for it is a futile discussion that only frustrates the ignorant---which can be fun to do at times :-)

The caliber that you can consistently make effective hits with IS the right choice for you.

ZombieTactics
05-24-2011, 8:10 AM
I've begun a series on the "Great Caliber Debate" on my YouTube channel. It's a bit lengthy, because I am trying to be complete (and something of a motormouth, lol):
BvG0xLCP9XY rLdmB_r3U8Q
w8WCa6sKMDw

HK35
05-24-2011, 9:08 AM
[B]I've begun a series on the "Great Caliber Debate" on my YouTube channel. It's a bit lengthy, because I am trying to be complete (and something of a motormouth, lol

You might want to consider bullet (kinetic) energy between the different calibers and bullet weights. Between the 115gr 9mm (~350 ft-lbf), 165gr 40cal (~450ft-lbf) & 230gr 45cal (~360 ft-lbf); the 40 definitely has more kinetic energy coming out of the barrel. That means a 40cal bullet will transfer more energy onto a target which could potentially do more collateral damage from hydrostatic shock than say a 9 or a 45.

Note: just for comparison, a 350gr 500S&W will produce ~3,000 ft-lbf of muzzle energy. So a round of 500S&W will impart the same hydrostatic shock as 8 rounds of 9mm/45 hitting the target at the same time; now that's impressive.

Coincidentally, the kinetic energy from a 9 and 45 are pretty much the same. So, solely based on kinetic energy, a 9mm hollow point could be just as effective as a 45 with the advantage of having more rounds.

So in conclusion, the 9, 40 and 45 are pretty comparable and it'll come down to personal preference and if you want stopping power then get a 500 S&W.

CAglock20c
05-24-2011, 9:23 AM
Because i have these...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRvhQOLYJVqkMix-z4-hBH69dKJnw4MvJET_CE3EgEkpQxR4edMUw

then after they go bang they do this

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRka0v7J1nufP8_yZY86VZbjeDwKIFJs mqPmi70oyup3-g2nKmcnQ

Those ARE nice. Who makes them?

Shenaniguns
05-24-2011, 9:41 AM
Besides Doc Robert's Terminal Ballistics posts on the first page, why doesn't the OP look at some testing here from Winchester and see how similar 9mm and .40 are overall. www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

I'll stick to my 'inferior' 9mm's ;)

Marlin Hunter
05-24-2011, 9:49 AM
Just curious as to why so many people still shoot 9mm, even those who carry on/off duty use 9mm? with the option of carrying the 40 cal, and almost as many rounds, one would think the stopping power would come into play? is it a cost issue? handle the recoil better?



9mm is cheap, and the bullets travel further than 45 ACP.

You use to be able to buy a gun that held 19 rounds (Steyr GB).

Marlin Hunter
05-24-2011, 10:07 AM
Those ARE nice. Who makes them?

Those are Winchester Black Talon ammo (Notice the sharp claws at the tips of the expanded bullet). I don't think you can get them anymore, unless they are old stock. You might be able to still buy the bullet, and load your own.

Shenaniguns
05-24-2011, 10:08 AM
Those are Winchester Black Talon ammo (Notice the sharp claws at the tips of the expanded bullet). I don't think you can get them anymore, unless they are old stock. You might be able to still buy the bullet, and load your own.


There is no reason too, just buy the improved Ranger-T.

Milspec714
05-24-2011, 1:37 PM
There is no reason too, just buy the improved Ranger-T.

exactly

http://www.calzaretta.com/scans/sxt9.jpg

do you know what the SXT means???

Same eXact Thing

as its predecessor....

Shenaniguns
05-24-2011, 1:39 PM
exactly



do you know what the SXT means???

Same eXact Thing

as its predecessor....


That's not entirely true as there have been atleast 5 generations of the Talon/Ranger family, including the bonded versions.

BTW, the older SXT have been replaced by the -T

Milspec714
05-24-2011, 2:01 PM
very true... should of never left the first and OG design...

Shenaniguns
05-24-2011, 2:03 PM
very true... should of never left the first and OG design...


This I do not agree with as they theoretically evolved ballistically and is the reason that 9mm caught back up to .40.

Milspec714
05-24-2011, 2:09 PM
again true... :D

thats why i love these, but getting hard to find...

My Star likes these but people next to me indoor range dont soo much...:eek:

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/chrono/124ggdhp.gif

loose_electron
05-24-2011, 2:30 PM
please pass the popcorn, this has degenerated to another caliber war?
:lurk5::lurk5::lurk5:

camron882
05-24-2011, 2:44 PM
1 JHP in the head in any caliber would put a person down...plus it was my first gun.

Arisaka
05-24-2011, 3:00 PM
Umm... because my P89 holds 15 in the mag, and the ammo is relatively cheap.

sammy
05-24-2011, 3:47 PM
I LOVE the 9mm round. Light recoil, good power and lots of cheaper ammo availible. Not the easiest round to load but lots of brass can be found which brings the cost down. When I want to bring new shooters they will always start with a 9mm after they are comfortable with the .22. Sammy

orangeusa
05-24-2011, 5:42 PM
9mm vs 40sw vs 45acp recoil.... I don't think it matters.... It's how you train, at least from my experience..

AMJLgYkpFHk

I just like seeing an Inox 92 in action. :)

Next time shoot both with both hands...

.

Paul053
05-28-2011, 6:10 PM
Hi folks...this is actually my first post so please don't mind the noob. I just bought my first pistol a few months ago, a Glock 21. I wish I had read this thread sooner because 8 times out of 10 I can never find .45 in the local Walmart, but always see 9mm and .40.

I went with the G21 because it felt the best in my hand, I got big mitts, and shot the most accurate out of the Sig p220 and HK USP. I went with the .45 because someone had convinced me that since we have to deal with a 10 round mag, to get the biggest round possible.

I recently went to the LA gun club and tried out the G17 and noticed that my Gen3 21 has a bigger grip than a Gen 3 Glock 17. Now I'd like to get a 9mm, can anyone recommend a pistol with similar sized grip as the Glock 21?

Jack L
05-29-2011, 6:58 AM
Hi folks...this is actually my first post so please don't mind the noob. I just bought my first pistol a few months ago, a Glock 21. I wish I had read this thread sooner because 8 times out of 10 I can never find .45 in the local Walmart, but always see 9mm and .40.

I went with the G21 because it felt the best in my hand, I got big mitts, and shot the most accurate out of the Sig p220 and HK USP. I went with the .45 because someone had convinced me that since we have to deal with a 10 round mag, to get the biggest round possible.

I recently went to the LA gun club and tried out the G17 and noticed that my Gen3 21 has a bigger grip than a Gen 3 Glock 17. Now I'd like to get a 9mm, can anyone recommend a pistol with similar sized grip as the Glock 21?


I have Glocks, I like them. The grip is not great on any if you ask me. I bought a full size S&W M&P 9mm and it is actually tailored for a human hand. I don't think Glock cared that much about it. Just my opinion of course. Glocks have other value assets but the grip isn't one of them for me.

Moto4Fun
05-29-2011, 8:12 AM
You can always get one of these rubber sleeves to enlarge the grip and make it more comfortable.

CK_32
05-29-2011, 10:38 AM
Lol reading this thread the OP is a joke. Obviously a kid or stuck up grown man trying to justify his 40 s&w purchase and saw people were outing it down and is now in the corner trying to feel good about his 40.


But I still don't believe that the 45 doesn't have stopping power over the 9mm... That's telling just like saying a 12g slug is no stronger than a 5.56. And ghat ballistic test is bias due to them shooting 1 40 and 1 45 and 5 9mm.... A projectile with a larger surface with almost double the weight moving as a slower speed yes by physics will hit you harder than a faster moving smaller lighter object. I think the 9mm community is so closed minded on these few tests and is all hear say... Because I always see the same ones nothing new.. If it's so simple and possible why don't someone do another test with the top 45s and top 9s with a pressure plate to record impact and more than ballistic gel like a pig carcass. And then some... Because as far as I saw that 45 on the bottom had a huge gap in the ballistic gel than the 9 did... Aka more torn tissue. I'm not saying shot placement won't do the job but really who is going to hit 10s at night half asleep scared ****less moving...... 9 of 10 your going to hit chest or belly and if your lucky one of your 10 shots will hit the spine or something good.


Everyone needs to stop being so closed minded and just face the true facts... 9s can take a man down. 45s will take one down just the same but tear and hurt a he'll of a lot more.


Still want to believe in the "ballistics" everyone defends... Take a punch from a feather weight and then take a punch from a heavy weight to the chest... You'll understand force of weight and power real fast.


I'm not ****ting on either caliber just tired of this oh well yea... Well I heard this and know this when you just heard another poster say so or you saw 1 or 2 "tests".... Don't believe everything you hear or see on the net people...



And for the Leo argument... Really? Ask any military or LEO if they like their issued gear... They don't they hate it and want something different. And half the time it takes military takes 10 years to learn something isn't working and the LEOA a good 5 years to understand something isn't working and attempts to fix it. The LEO or GOV argument is a last resort bs argument and obviousl those are from the people who havnt served. I havnt served but I talk to people EVERYDAY who are still in or are retired military and LEO. I work on a military base and see cops and active all the time and shoot the sh*t with them daily for anyone looking to call me out. they know what works in the heat of battle or understress... They do it everyday or did it everyday... We just pretend.



So stop this 5th grade arguments and open your minds and defend your opinion but learn something while your here... It amazes me when people come in here and are so set on one thing... If that's how it is don't come here since you know everything.. Start a business and make people pay for your wisdom if your so set on your opinions.. I defend my opinions very well and now know a lot and have learned a lot. But no man wil know everything. So grow up and open your minds and learn something rather than close your kind and swear by misinfo or one opinion. I like the opinion and determination but some of you I do it at times too need to get off the high horse. And Learn a thing or 2 and next argument maybe have some better information. Were all on the same team.. Well most and were hear to help each other... Were all in the same fight.

Gryff
05-29-2011, 10:55 AM
Gun fits my hand better than .45. Cheaper ammo. More recoil than a .22 reminds you are shooting a grownup gun.

DannyZRC
05-29-2011, 11:25 AM
CK_32, you're articulating a totally debunked argument about energy or "hard hittingness" being in any way relevant to handgun incapacitation.

the larger diameter permanent cavity produced by larger diameter projectiles only has merit in stopping when the edge of the cavity intersects a vital structure when a smaller projectile would not have.

.40 and .45 have advantages over 9mm, but they are not particularly applicable to most CCW or HD type encounters, largely coming into play when shooting into/through cars.

In order to incapacitate someone, you have 2 choices. #1 is to disrupt their central nervous function with a CNS hit, and #2 is to cause sufficient blood loss as to lower their blood pressure below the threshold needed to operate their brain. The only way to achieve #2 is by hitting a major cardiovascular structure, if you miss this then yes a .40 or .45 will cause faster blood loss, but the differences will be measure in minutes.

The part where you reference boxers is totally and completely inapplicable to handgun wounding, punches are not penetrating into your body and disrupting vital functions.

ask a middleweight fighter to put a 12" stiletto on his glove, and a heavyweight fighter to put a 12" chef's knife on his glove. This is a more apt comparison, if either punch hits you in a vital or CNS area, you will be very rapidly incapacitated. If either punch doesn't hit you in a vital or CNS, you will be mortally wounded but you'll spend a long time dying.