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mkasda
04-20-2011, 11:17 PM
Some advice from this knowledgeable community would be appreciated.

Is it legal to use a 20 round capacity pmag magazine with a pmag 10 round limiter installed with a bullet button equipped rifle?

Iím looking at purchasing an ATI VK-22 for a dedicated .22 practice AR. The model comes with a .223 bullet buttoned lower and a .22 upper. The idea is you can buy the deluxe kit that also comes with a .223 upper. I would like to remove the bullet button on the lower, use it with 30 round capacity magazines, and never use it with a .223 upper. Is this good to go?

PsychGuy274
04-20-2011, 11:24 PM
Some advice from this knowledgeable community would be appreciated.

Is it legal to use a 20 round capacity pmag magazine with a pmag 10 round limiter installed with a bullet button equipped rifle?

As long as the mag is permanently blocked, you're good to go on that one.

Iím looking at purchasing an ATI VK-22 for a dedicated .22 practice AR. The model comes with a .223 bullet buttoned lower and a .22 upper. The idea is you can buy the deluxe kit that also comes with a .223 upper. I would like to remove the bullet button on the lower, use it with 30 round capacity magazines, and never use it with a .223 upper. Is this good to go?

No need for a bullet button for rimfire cartridges. However, if you want to put a .223/5.56 upper on it you need to install the bullet button before you put the centerfire upper on it.

Does that answer your question?

mkasda
04-20-2011, 11:35 PM
I'm wondering if a limiter is considered "permanent" because it can be taken out when the magazine is disassembled or another method like a rivet for example must be used.

So a non-bullet buttoned AR .223 couldn’t run with a conversion kit (i.e. Ciener) in a regular .223 upper, but can with a dedicated .22 upper. Basically, the lower is not the determining factor, but what upper is installed on the rifle?

bwiese
04-20-2011, 11:56 PM
I'm wondering if a limiter is considered "permanent" because it can be taken out when the magazine is disassembled or another method like a rivet for example must be used.

Attempts at restoral of hicap capacity should take some time and risk damage of magazine part(s). A simple drop-in limiter is not sufficient.

If the limiter were riveted/epoxied in, that should be sufficient given DOJ has approved this method as sufficiently permanent for the Vulcan fixed-mag AR15 lower receiver, and listed these methods in proposed rulemaking redefinition for 'detachable magazine' that was aborted.



So a non-bullet buttoned AR .223 couldn’t run with a conversion kit (i.e. Ciener) in a regular .223 upper,A Ciener 22LR conversion kit system installed using a 223/5.56 barreled upper on an off-list lower is indeed a semiauto RIMFIRE rifle, and is not centerfire. It thus does not have features restrictions or a 30" min overall length restriction, and does not require a BulletButton maglock / nondetachable mag.

In this specific example, the rimfire exemption is exhibited thru the use of the INSTALLED special Ciener bolt system that uses special magazines.

Note that use of a 5.56/223 AR barrel instead of a dedicated 22LR barrel results in reduced accuracy as the former's bore is around ~0.001" wider than the latter and offers some "slop".

... but can with a dedicated .22 upper. A dedicated 22LR upper on an off-list lower is indeed also a semiauto RIMFIRE rifle and is not a centerfire. Thus it does not have AW features configuration restrictions nor 30" min length restriction , and does not require a BulletButton maglock / nondetachable magazine.

Basically, the lower is not the determining factor, but what upper is installed on the rifle?The lower (nor its caliber markings) are not determining factor.

What the upper is CONFIGURED AS determines rimfire status via EITHER:
- upper w/regular 5.56/223 barrel + a Ciener bolt carrier INSTALLED, or
- dedicated 22LR upper with 22LR barrel, etc.



However, you should NOT try to say an off-list AR with no bolt carrier is a 22LR rifle missing a Ciener 22LR conversion bolt carrier assembly. Such a gun will most likely be regarded as a "broken AW". Because of this, I would thus also emphasize that when working or cleaning a Ciener 22LR OLL AR clone, the upper should be fully separated from the lower (at the pivot pin) BEFORE removing the Ciener 22LR bolt carrier. On assembling this rimfire gun, one should insert the Ciener 22LR bolt carrier assembly in the upper BEFORE attaching the complete now-rimfire upper to the lower. This sequencing avoids any transition thru AW status.

12voltguy
04-21-2011, 10:10 AM
Attempts at restoral of hicap capacity should take some time and risk damage of magazine part(s). A simple drop-in limiter is not sufficient.If the limiter were riveted/epoxied in, that should be sufficient given DOJ has approved this method as sufficiently permanent for the Vulcan fixed-mag AR15 lower receiver, and listed these methods in proposed rulemaking redefinition for 'detachable magazine' that was aborted.


.

this is how many 10rd mags are made by the factory & sold.
what about those?

Zachs300zx
04-21-2011, 10:15 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=412501

G1500
04-21-2011, 10:20 AM
this is how many 10rd mags are made by the factory & sold.
what about those?

I say a limiter is sufficient enough. But most factory 10 round mags I have seen are definitely designed to be 10 rounds without the use of a drop in block.

12voltguy
04-21-2011, 10:23 AM
I say a limiter is sufficient enough. But most factory 10 round mags I have seen are definitely designed to be 10 rounds without the use of a drop in block.

I think so, if not I will just sue the maker,lol

G1500
04-21-2011, 10:31 AM
I think so, if not I will just sue the maker,lol

Just for example, here are some XD mags. They have an indention on the side preventing it from ever accepting more than 10 rounds.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1356.snc4/162816_825922597349_1810703_45822423_6319508_n.jpg


And FNP puts horizontal indention preventing anything more than 10 going into the mag.

http://www.tacticalsubmission.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MGFN47306-2T.jpg


The only time it really matters (for the end user, me and you for example) when a magazine made to fit 10 rounds fully lives up to that is for 10 round mags in a fixed magazine weapon where 10 rounds is max.

If Springfield made a magazine that was supposed to hold 10, yet it actually held 11, they are the ones who illegally sold you a LCM. So long as you did not modify or manufacture the magazine to fit more than 10 rounds.

12voltguy
04-21-2011, 1:03 PM
Just for example, here are some XD mags. They have an indention on the side preventing it from ever accepting more than 10 rounds.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1356.snc4/162816_825922597349_1810703_45822423_6319508_n.jpg


And FNP puts horizontal indention preventing anything more than 10 going into the mag.

http://www.tacticalsubmission.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MGFN47306-2T.jpg


The only time it really matters (for the end user, me and you for example) when a magazine made to fit 10 rounds fully lives up to that is for 10 round mags in a fixed magazine weapon where 10 rounds is max.

If Springfield made a magazine that was supposed to hold 10, yet it actually held 11, they are the ones who illegally sold you a LCM. So long as you did not modify or manufacture the magazine to fit more than 10 rounds.

gLOCK DOES THAT TOO
MANY DO NOT
sw SIGMA, all they do is use a thick spring wraped tight with no space as a slug to prevent more then 10rds, only the springs are different between the 10rd & the 11+
there are others

mkasda
04-21-2011, 10:33 PM
Thank you for all of the information.

paredyme
04-23-2011, 9:14 PM
Quick note on the ATI VK-22 that you mentioned...I would confirm before purchase that you are getting the newest version. I must have bought a first-gen VK-22, because I had two major issues: breakage of the feeding ramp (wtf?) and then the spring rod in the bolt carrier assembly snapping off. The great thing about ATI is that they do take care of their customers...just call 'em up, get an RA number, and ship it over to them. Turnaround time is fairly quick (about a month).

Two ways to tell that you are getting the newest version of the VK: Make sure that the "forward assist" (I think that's what it is called) is a workable function and not just for decoration, and check the bolt carrier assembly. The back of the spring rod should be reinforced with a metal layer.

Otherwise, it's a pretty decent gun, and in my opinion, great value...but definitely get the newest version to avoid the headaches I had with the earlier versions.