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Sane
04-20-2011, 6:31 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=423434


Why did you lock the thread? I was hoping for more replies.

I did not see anything bad here. I suppose the 1A takes a back seat to the 2A?

Swiss
04-20-2011, 6:33 PM
I don't really believe you're a student writing a paper but I do think you should have the opportunity to debate whoever is willing.

wildhawker
04-20-2011, 6:34 PM
I think the moderating staff felt you were a bit disingenuous by way of your approach.

I'm not sure you understand how 1A works. You might consider researching its application in the context of a private business prior to commenting further.

-Brandon

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=423434

Why did you lock the thread? I was hoping for more replies.

I did not see anything bad here. I suppose the 1A takes a back seat to the 2A?

Sane
04-20-2011, 6:38 PM
OK, I think my dad has even talked to you before. I was being genuine albeit playing devils advocate to help my debate in school.

safewaysecurity
04-20-2011, 6:42 PM
YOu say you are not anti-gun. Yet you come on this board with the username "sane" implying that people on this board on "less sane" or "insane". I love debate and usually smoke anti-rights people out of the water but don't hide your dislike of the second amendment or firearms. Be open about it and we can engage in an actual discussion. Don't be like the Brady's who say they support " reasonable restrictions " yet have a history of supporting gun bans and spreading misinformation and using fear tactics and appeals to emotion to get their way politically.

Andy Taylor
04-20-2011, 6:42 PM
This is a private forum. Property rights trumps 1A, and 2A rights.

If I am legally carrying my gun and want to go into the mall, the mall has a right to say I can not. That I must either leave, and return without my gun, or just leave. This is not a 2A violation. The government does not have this right. The government telling me I can't go to the mall with my gun is a 2A violation.

If you walk into my place of business and start saying things to my customers that I don't like, I can tell you to leave. This is not a 1A violation. If you stand on the publicly owned sidewalk in front of my store and tell people not to come into my store, niether I, nor the government, can compell you not to. If the government did, it would be a 1A violation. If I tryed, you can just ignore me.

Same here, the owners of this forum, or their agents, can delete, close, etc. anything they want.

taperxz
04-20-2011, 6:44 PM
Thanks for helping my daughter, sorry guys.

Swiss
04-20-2011, 6:47 PM
I don't disagree with you but just remember how annoyed we get when the Brady Bunch bans us from their forums for even the most moderate remarks.

I think "Sane" is a Brady troll and actually sounds a lot like "Elly" from the Brady CA Facebook page. But if s/he can take a position on 2A then we can have a discussion, otherwise it's just endless questioning using poor analogies.

Edit: Guess I was wrong!

This is a private forum. Property rights trumps 1A, and 2A rights.

If I am legally carrying my gun and want to go into the mall, the mall has a right to say I can not. That I must either leave, and return without my gun, or just leave. This is not a 2A violation. The government does not have this right. The government telling me I can't go to the mall with my gun is a 2A violation.

If you walk into my place of business and start saying things to my customers that I don't like, I can tell you to leave. This is not a 1A violation. If you stand on the publicly owned sidewalk in front of my store and tell people not to come into my store, niether I, nor the government, can compell you not to. If the government did, it would be a 1A violation. If I tryed, you can just ignore me.

Same here, the owners of this forum, or their agents, can delete, close, etc. anything they want.

wildhawker
04-20-2011, 6:53 PM
Thanks for helping my daughter, sorry guys.

Thanks for clarifying. Let us know how we can help.

-Brandon

taperxz
04-20-2011, 7:02 PM
Brandon, some times kids gotta do stuff on there own without a parents help:eek:

mofugly13
04-20-2011, 8:38 PM
Good for her. I don't see any problems with the way she came across. But...What if she was a brady troll? Why censor her, the way they do us? If one wants to come here and debate, I'm all for it. As long as the debate stays civil, why not let it continue?

And what is the purpose of posting in a thread simply to announce "TROLL (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6241341&postcount=55)", when there is merely a diference of opinion? It seems as if that act itself is...trolling.

dantodd
04-20-2011, 11:46 PM
Hopefully some of the knee jerk troll callers will have learned something here and hopefully Sane has also learned that it is important to read a little and understand the context into which she is stepping when participating in a conversation. A forum is like a big part at a neighbor's house. Some parties are the spittin' on the floor and bourbon drinkin' kind and others are for quiet conversation and martini sipping, and there's every other kind under the sun as well.

InGrAM
04-21-2011, 12:12 AM
Yes, the 1st amendment takes a back seat to the 2nd because without the 2nd amendment how can you defend the 1st? Or any other amendment?

BTW, sorry if you really were trying to create a paper on gun rights or trying to create data for a debate, but you would get a lot further if you would be up front with what you are trying to do. Just knowledge for future posts.

Dreaded Claymore
04-21-2011, 12:15 AM
When I read Sane's previous thread, it looked like it was going pretty darn well. I wish it hadn't been locked.

Sane, I hope you won't be afraid of asking questions on this forum in the future, even if they're ones that some of us find contentious.

One tip for you though. Did you ever see the Li'l Rascals, or Austin Powers: Goldmember, or almost any comedic movie or TV show? Remember the parts where someone wears some ludicrously transparent disguise, and everyone is fooled? That only works in the movie or TV show, in real life it just makes everyone's eyebrows go WAY up.

Now, this is an Internet forum, and so the only part of you we can perceive is the text that you choose to type. That's a much smaller amount of information than we'd have if we were speaking to you in person in a coffeehouse, for instance, or even over a telephone. It's entirely possible that we just misunderstood you because of this limitation. But if you consider it for a moment, you'll see how an opening statement like "A family member of mine frequents this site. I am not opposed to firearms!" might get a similar reception on Calguns as a seven-year-old who actually tries the Li'l Rascals' stunt, and stands on his friend's shoulders and puts on a trenchcoat, hat, and fake beard, and walks into a bank to ask for a loan, loudly announcing, "I am a grown-up, just like all of you!"

taperxz
04-21-2011, 6:30 AM
UPDATE: She chose not to write or debate about the 2A (to many unsolved matters in the court systems today), So...... its now about the rights of people to hunt animals for food!


What a tangled web we weave! My girls are the same way, why couldn't they pick something on, you know, woman stuff??? I'm glad to help them though!!!!!

sneather
04-21-2011, 7:43 AM
Having been a limited part of the exchange from the closed thread, I will simply add the following. If someone is researching a particular subject, and they intend to use the insight and opinions of others as a foundation for an argument in that document, then they need to be open and honest about those intentions from the onset.

The web, and forums like these, offer an extraordinary level of discourse that could have NEVER existed just years ago. However, that also provides for abuse as some people are emboldened by anonymity to act in ways which they would never dare in the flesh. If these topics are going to be elevated to the highest possible level, then everyone involved needs to appreciate that, and help to contribute.

Droc101
04-21-2011, 7:53 AM
UPDATE: She chose not to write or debate about the 2A (to many unsolved matters in the court systems today), So...... its now about the rights of people to hunt animals for food!


What a tangled web we weave! My girls are the same way, why couldn't they pick something on, you know, woman stuff??? I'm glad to help them though!!!!!

If she needs any help on the hunting report drop a line. I had to do one when i was in high school and I think i still have my material lying around somewhere

sanjosebmx
04-21-2011, 8:29 AM
kudos to the kid for giving a darn about her schoolwork...

taperxz
04-21-2011, 9:44 AM
Having been a limited part of the exchange from the closed thread, I will simply add the following. If someone is researching a particular subject, and they intend to use the insight and opinions of others as a foundation for an argument in that document, then they need to be open and honest about those intentions from the onset.

The web, and forums like these, offer an extraordinary level of discourse that could have NEVER existed just years ago. However, that also provides for abuse as some people are emboldened by anonymity to act in ways which they would never dare in the flesh. If these topics are going to be elevated to the highest possible level, then everyone involved needs to appreciate that, and help to contribute.

Well, yes and no.

I know how this forum can operate!

The idea of her paper would have been to back all 2A material they way we see it. After that she would have been wide open to anti 2A material via off the hip, knee jerk reactions from other students not seeing eye to eye with her. By simply asking the questions she asked in the OP and not being negative with anyone, it gave her first hand experience as to what her arguement should look like verbally back to any anti response. S. Brady was a prime example of that.

She knew going in that the troll accusations may come. I also told her some of the right people would indeed respond in kind as long as she maintained a business like attitude.

Her first line was truthful. Some simply chose not to believe her. All 3 of my kids who are in college did in fact help me clean firearms @ the age of 8:D

thanks again guys, its all good!

Lone_Gunman
04-21-2011, 9:45 AM
I typed a long post for the other thread and then when I went to post it the thread was locked. I will summarize.
1. I'm tired of the 2nd Amendment continually being attacked by those who have no knowledge of history.
2. If you really have been involved with guns since you were 8 you should be answering these questions not asking them.
3. Do some research, read some history, look at some stats and come up with your own conclusions.

taperxz
04-21-2011, 9:56 AM
I typed a long post for the other thread and then when I went to post it the thread was locked. I will summarize.
1. I'm tired of the 2nd Amendment continually being attacked by those who have no knowledge of history.
2. If you really have been involved with guns since you were 8 you should be answering these questions not asking them.
3. Do some research, read some history, look at some stats and come up with your own conclusions.

LOL, ^^^

1 I'd like to see your history credentials

2 She could strip down my 1911 @ 8 that doesn't mean she was able to site the constitution at 8.

3 She has done her research! You can't research live debate.

4 This is about a grade! This site is a great source for information. If you aren't here to LEARN, what are you here for? I am certainly here to learn from the right people. I sure as heck don't know it all or i would be in front of SCOTUS with Alan Gura. Just sayin!

sbrady@Michel&Associates
04-21-2011, 10:15 AM
For what it is worth, I thought her approach was pretty ingenious. She received genuine feelings and opinions through the eyes of her opponent. Well done. That being said, she should ask everyone's pardon for having to ruffle feathers to achieve her goal. But, everyone should accept her apology and realize that like sanjosebmx said, good for her for caring so much about her school work. It is nice to see that at least some college kids these days care about engaging in important debate and are not just focused on praising Che Guevara while exploiting their parent's resources, and crying about how they are down-trodden by "the man."

taperxz
04-21-2011, 10:21 AM
I guess I will take my questions else where.

Thank you those who responded with rational answers to my questions. I will use these answers in my upcoming paper and ensuing open debate against those who question our 2A rights.

I did not want to say why I asked because a debate here would help me debate back in unbiased form.

Sorry for stirring up the pot. Thanks again for some of the better responses.

I attend a local university on the peninsula where not everyone is in sync with the 2A.


This was her response to all ^^


I don't she will be back on any time soon. LOL

Her interests in life don't always mirror mine.

taperxz
04-21-2011, 10:23 AM
LMAO!!

I hope my other daughter doesn't try the same topic!! She goes to the University of Hawaii!! She would get one heck of a debate there.

pointedstick
04-21-2011, 10:23 AM
It is nice to see that at least some college kids these days care about engaging in important debate and are not just focused on praising Che Guevara while exploiting their parent's resources, and crying about how they are down-trodden by "the man."

I graduated pretty recently and would also like to distance myself from that group. :) Although it was pretty dismaying to see how many people could be described by your generalization. :(

ElvenSoul
04-21-2011, 10:38 AM
This post answers the question really well

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6245825#post6245825

Lost.monkey
04-21-2011, 10:46 AM
I gave my kids a weapons brief a few years back. As I showed them how to cycle, safety, and operate my Mossberg Persuader, both kids eye's were wide open and mouths agape at the sight of something so powerful.

I've never been more proud as a parent at that point. They both tuned in to the principle of liberty, and the preservation of life and property, and ultimately the personification of the struggle in maintaining it embodied in this firearm.

I told them, stealing a line from Braveheart: "Once you're old enough to use this (tapping their foreheads), I'll teach you how to use this (holding out the shotgun)".

I don't believe the Anti's truly understand the societal impact of the seemingly good-intentioned restrictions they are trying to impose. A weapon-free society will never exist, as has been demonstrated time and time again throughout history. If not rifles, then machetes. If not machetes, then clubs. The important thing to take from it is that one person will always want what another has (money, power, freedom, whatever), and will take it by force if they know without a doubt there is little actual risk in the transaction. The implement of the theft is trivial. A group with guns will always dictate terms to a group holding machetes/clubs.

If the anti's succeed, they will find themselves in a society full of unintended consequences, namely the utter lack of personal security and any right to life and liberty.

Perhaps they will only comprehend tyranny when they find themselves cringing beneath the whips of their masters. Only then will they understand their folly, and ultimately take up arms in opposition.

I wonder where we are in the Tytler circle of governmental rise and fall?

http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i371/lostmonkey1/tytlercycleofhistory.jpg

A good read: http://uw2.blogspot.com/2010/11/cycle-of-democracy-economic-standpoint.html

jwkincal
04-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Somewhere in the complacency -> dependence phase.

...and I think it's "begets" as I don't see tyranny "becoming" courage...

Lost.monkey
04-21-2011, 1:16 PM
<deleted>

taperxz
04-21-2011, 7:51 PM
Not a big deal! But!

For any dads out there remotely interested in how my daughters research is going on her new topic, " hunting rights" here is the link, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=423921

We are sorry for any confusion! She just wants to get good info and get a good grade.

You have no idea what its like to send 3 kids to college at the same time! Maybe some do? LOL

bigboarstopper
04-21-2011, 9:26 PM
Some people in here need to unclinch the cheeks a little. Relax. breathe in. Breathe out. repeat.