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fonzy
04-20-2011, 4:59 PM
I was aware of the 5 per calendar year transfer limitation. I thought this didn't include long guns. Is there a way to get around this with out raising a flag?

Let me edit: This is for me selling not buying sorry about that.

sigfan91
04-20-2011, 5:02 PM
Whoa...really? I better slow down.

rogervzv
04-20-2011, 5:03 PM
I was aware of the 5 per calendar year transfer limitation. I thought this didn't include long guns. Is there a way to get around this with out raising a flag?

Hey, I wasn't. I thought you could DROS a weapon every 30 days. Is there a 5 per year limit too?

Jel
04-20-2011, 5:10 PM
I was aware of the 5 per calendar year transfer limitation. I thought this didn't include long guns. Is there a way to get around this with out raising a flag?

Where did you hear this?

As far as I know, you can do as many long gun purchases/transfers as you want. As many PPT for handgun and long guns as you want.

Brand NEW handgun purchases from a dealer/FFL, as many as you want.

However you can only DROS a new handgun once every 30 days.

Q619
04-20-2011, 5:11 PM
I was aware of the 5 per calendar year transfer limitation. I thought this didn't include long guns. Is there a way to get around this with out raising a flag?

Whoever told you this is misinformed. I've had more than 5 pistols transferred to me within the last year. No problems of any sort, nor have I heard of any with others. I'm sure I'll get a visit from the ATF asking to see my guns to confirm they're all in my possession (they've been trying to catch "straw" purchasers) but apart from that minor inconvience for people living near the border, there are no limits or legal ramifications beyond the 30 day wait between buying pistols from a FFL.

JPN6336
04-20-2011, 5:13 PM
I believe the 5 per year rule has something to do with manufacturing your own like finishing an 80% receiver.

jonzer77
04-20-2011, 5:19 PM
If you transfer more then 5 then you are considered a dealer. From what I understand it is only with ppts and it is one of those laws that are there but not strictly enforced. It is per transaction so if you transferred 3 guns at one time it would only count as one.

Quiet
04-20-2011, 5:24 PM
Less than 6 handgun transactions in a calender year. But you can transfer multiple handguns during a single transaction. [PC 12070(c)(1)(A)]

Anymore and you can be arrested for dealing without a FFL. [PC 12070(a)]



Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

fonzy
04-20-2011, 5:31 PM
Anymore and you can be arrested for dealing without a FFL. [PC 12070(a)]



That's what I heard. I'm glad I'm not the only one hearing this. She said I could be considered a dealer. I could be fined and have to pay a tax.:eek:

fonzy
04-20-2011, 5:32 PM
Whoever told you this is misinformed. I've had more than 5 pistols transferred to me within the last year. No problems of any sort, nor have I heard of any with others. I'm sure I'll get a visit from the ATF asking to see my guns to confirm they're all in my possession (they've been trying to catch "straw" purchasers) but apart from that minor inconvience for people living near the border, there are no limits or legal ramifications beyond the 30 day wait between buying pistols from a FFL.

You can buy 1 per 30 days. I just can't sell more than 5 per calendar year.

Sky_DiveR
04-20-2011, 5:41 PM
....I just can't sell more than 5 per calendar year.

Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

Only for concealable handguns...

Long guns... "occasional and without regularity"

You can buy 1 per 30 days.

Only purchases from a dealer/FFL (that includes used and consigned). PPT as often and as frequently as you can afford.

jptopz
04-20-2011, 7:14 PM
You may not sell more than 5 pistols per callender year. I checked in to it last year I sold my 5 and bought 6. Long guns do not factor into this.

sigfan91
04-20-2011, 7:22 PM
You may not sell more than 5 pistols per callender year. I checked in to it last year I sold my 5 and bought 6. Long guns do not factor into this.

Is PPT considered a "sale?" What if I gave it to someone as a gift?

Librarian
04-20-2011, 7:32 PM
You may not sell more than 5 pistols per callender year. I checked in to it last year I sold my 5 and bought 6. Long guns do not factor into this.

Almost.

For handguns, you can make just 5 sales per year - but each sale may be any number of handguns.

Centurion
04-20-2011, 7:45 PM
Is PPT considered a "sale?" What if I gave it to someone as a gift?

I'm curious about this too.

Oceanbob
04-20-2011, 7:48 PM
of the Law....I sold 11 handsguns last year. (Downsizing my collection of safe queen handguns) They all went smooth and no contact from anybody.

Some of these guns I've owned for 25 years. I can only assume that the DOJ can see my ownership of a BUNCH of handguns and they know I am not a gun dealer. I also bought 13 new guns last year (some thru dealers such as Ammo Bros and On Target and some thru PPT).

Perhaps 6 transactions drop a FLAG over at the DOJ; then someone looks and makes a decision yeah or nay on whether you're a 'Gun Dealer' or not.

Who know...?...not me..:D

jptopz
04-20-2011, 7:57 PM
Is PPT considered a "sale?" What if I gave it to someone as a gift?

I do believe that even a gift would be transferring a pistol out of your name so it should count. The Librarian is right you can sell more than 5 if make no more than 5 transactions. So sell more than one pistol to the same person.

JeffM
04-20-2011, 8:14 PM
So how does it work when someone is selling a bunch of guns like this:

From the prices of P38's in the past ($389 at SOG in November) this guy is obviously making a nice profit on buying a bunch of pistols, then reselling them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=421204

dachan
04-20-2011, 9:10 PM
So how does it work when someone is selling a bunch of guns like this:

From the prices of P38's in the past ($389 at SOG in November) this guy is obviously making a nice profit on buying a bunch of pistols, then reselling them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=421204

I noticed that ad and thought about sending him a PM. He'll be in violation of the PC once he does his 6th transaction in a calender year.

bjl333
04-20-2011, 9:31 PM
So how does it work when someone is selling a bunch of guns like this:

From the prices of P38's in the past ($389 at SOG in November) this guy is obviously making a nice profit on buying a bunch of pistols, then reselling them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=421204

Don't worry about PNS. He is one of the more knowledgable Calgunners here. He probably never DROs the guns to himself.

TangoCharlie
04-20-2011, 9:40 PM
That's what I heard. I'm glad I'm not the only one hearing this. She said I could be considered a dealer. I could be fined and have to pay a tax.:eek:

Not sure what the state penalty is, but dealing without a license is a federal felony. They'd arrest and prosecute you, not make you become a licensed dealer.

Bulleh
04-20-2011, 9:48 PM
6 in a year!?

Shoot!.. I got to slow down.

Meety Peety
04-20-2011, 9:55 PM
How about estate sales and similar things? There's obviously either little to no enforcement on this, or some sort of "protection" or filtration system to weed out people making a buck flipping guns from people liquidating collections. FWIW, (IANAL) I could have sworn there was some type of time limit attached to the above regulation that mentioned a duration of time must pass between buying said handgun and then reselling it. I don't.. I wouldn't worry about it unless you are actually buying with the intent to resell/distribute. I've seen countless estate sales dump 5+ handguns to different people in a matter of a week with no issues arising.

GW
04-20-2011, 10:25 PM
Just so I'm clear...
The clock resets on January 1 meaning if I sold 5 handguns in separate transactions on December 31, I could sell 5 more on January 1 without prosecution.

Right?

mswanson223
04-20-2011, 10:34 PM
Do you really think they have time to fart around with something so mundane? Im sure going after bikers and bangers moving illegal weapons, Arsonist, Domestic terrorist,ect.

Onlyincali
04-20-2011, 11:18 PM
As asked above. Does this mean no more than 5 pistol transfers in

any 12 month period
or
Jan 1-Jan 31 of any year?

ke6guj
04-20-2011, 11:21 PM
Read the PC,

Penal Code 12070
(a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.
(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

dmacintyre
04-21-2011, 5:31 AM
With the amount of money I lose selling my guns I wouldn't have a hard time demonstrating I am not trying to run an FFL business :D

MAD SVT
04-21-2011, 6:11 AM
Ruh Roh... ive already sold 3 CCW pistols this year and its only Apr.

guess that means i gotta keep the rest! OH WELL!

kel-tec-innovations
04-21-2011, 7:11 AM
I wonder how much is the fine for misdemeanor vs. obtaining FFL license? hmmmmm. Jeez I can't imagine going to jail or getting fined for selling my collection. I have a bad habit of just trying different handguns and selling them to fund purchasing more toys to try out.

G1500
04-21-2011, 9:42 AM
I wonder how much is the fine for misdemeanor vs. obtaining FFL license? hmmmmm. Jeez I can't imagine going to jail or getting fined for selling my collection. I have a bad habit of just trying different handguns and selling them to fund purchasing more toys to try out.

You are wondering about the fines/fees. I am more concerned with how difficult it is to get one.

sigfan91
04-21-2011, 2:21 PM
Do you really think they have time to fart around with something so mundane? Im sure going after bikers and bangers moving illegal weapons, Arsonist, Domestic terrorist,ect.

Yes. It's much safer to go after law-abiding citizens than real crooks.

rdmax
04-21-2011, 4:22 PM
I just completed my 5th pistol PPT this year and read this post. Well, it looks like I am done for this year. Good thing I saw this post. I could have broken the law and be completely unaware, even if the rule is silly.

Librarian
04-21-2011, 4:36 PM
I just completed my 5th pistol PPT this year and read this post. Well, it looks like I am done for this year. Good thing I saw this post. I could have broken the law and be completely unaware, even if the rule is silly.

Buying or selling? Only selling is limited by the law; buying is sort of limited by your wallet.

X-NewYawker
04-21-2011, 4:57 PM
I am assuming that if you give your guns to a store which logs them in and then resells them you could sell as many as you want in a year? It's PPTs we're worried about here?
Damn there goes my Christmas presents for next year. Everyone's getting holsters

fonzy
04-21-2011, 4:58 PM
Every day they have a dumb new rule.

rdmax
04-21-2011, 11:53 PM
Buying or selling? Only selling is limited by the law; buying is sort of limited by your wallet.

I was selling and trading. I presume trading is still considered a transfer and counts towards the 5 pistol rule?

ke6guj
04-21-2011, 11:59 PM
I was selling and trading. I presume trading is still considered a transfer and counts towards the 5 pistol rule?yes, all outgoing sales/trades woud be considered transfers.


12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(4) The infrequent sale, lease, or transfer of firearms.

(c)(1) As used in this section, "infrequent" means:
(A) For pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, less than six transactions per calendar year. For this purpose, "transaction" means a single sale, lease, or transfer of any number of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person.
(B) For firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, occasional and without regularity.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2011, 5:10 PM
So how does it work when someone is selling a bunch of guns like this:

From the prices of P38's in the past ($389 at SOG in November) this guy is obviously making a nice profit on buying a bunch of pistols, then reselling them.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=421204

Easy there, Francis.

These guns are not in my name, I am selling them on behalf of a dealer. In fact, I am with a Calgunner right now waiting while he does the DROS on two Walther P38s. He also mentioned this thread, which is why I am here.

Even if I were to get frisky and resell the J&G pistols, the profit margin would be marginal anyways and not worth my time. 389x + 25x + 60x + tax on gun value = next to nothing back. Besides, the J&G sales guns are import marked not all matching.

Let's not get wild with the assumptions and accusations, people.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2011, 5:11 PM
I noticed that ad and thought about sending him a PM. He'll be in violation of the PC once he does his 6th transaction in a calender year.

Again, let's all pop some Zoloft and chillax.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2011, 5:12 PM
Don't worry about PNS. He is one of the more knowledgable Calgunners here. He probably never DROs the guns to himself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, it is much appreciated.

cruising7388
04-22-2011, 5:47 PM
You may not sell more than 5 pistols per callender year. I checked in to it last year I sold my 5 and bought 6. Long guns do not factor into this.

Don't think so. The limitation for non-dealers is five transaction events per year. You can sell 100 pistols five times. The limitation is on the total number of events and not the number of weapons transacted in that event. If that seems bizarre, I guess it's because it is.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2011, 6:07 PM
Don't think so. The limitation for non-dealers is five transaction events per year. You can sell 100 pistols five times. The limitation is on the total number of events and not the number of weapons transacted in that event. If that seems bizarre, I guess it's because it is.

But each pistol is an event since aa separate form has to be signed pee pistol, correct?

Librarian
04-22-2011, 7:05 PM
But each pistol is an event since aa separate form has to be signed pee pistol, correct?

No.

If you are buying PPT from someone who is disposing of a collection, you could buy your five favorite handguns - one transaction that includes five guns.

It's five 'occasions of sale', any number of handguns in each sale.

pullnshoot25
04-22-2011, 10:20 PM
No.

If you are buying PPT from someone who is disposing of a collection, you could buy your five favorite handguns - one transaction that includes five guns.

It's five 'occasions of sale', any number of handguns in each sale.

I'll be damned. I guess one does learn something new every day.

So if I have a huge all-year sale, then that's good, right? ;)

jazman
05-18-2011, 4:00 PM
Easy there, Francis.

These guns are not in my name, I am selling them on behalf of a dealer. In fact, I am with a Calgunner right now waiting while he does the DROS on two Walther P38s. He also mentioned this thread, which is why I am here.

Even if I were to get frisky and resell the J&G pistols, the profit margin would be marginal anyways and not worth my time. 389x + 25x + 60x + tax on gun value = next to nothing back. Besides, the J&G sales guns are import marked not all matching.

Let's not get wild with the assumptions and accusations, people.

Why are you selling as/for a dealer in the private sales forum?

ke6guj
05-18-2011, 4:05 PM
:kest:

but, since he picked up an apparent perma-ban, I doubt you'll get an answer.

Saigon1965
05-18-2011, 4:30 PM
I like that -

Buying or selling? Only selling is limited by the law; buying is sort of limited by your wallet.