PDA

View Full Version : DOJ confirmed, max PPT fee is $35


smittty
04-20-2011, 3:20 PM
I recently did two PPT's and wanted to do another yesterday but all the FFL's I called in the Thousand Oaks area said the charge $60.

This p'd me off enough to call DOJ to find out if they enforce the max $35 PPT fee and they said the do. I was told it's $25 dros + $10 dealer fee and they are not allowed to charge any handling fee, etc. It's $35 max, period!

The FFL that tried to charge me $60 on Sunday is going to get a visit by the DOJ.

This topic should be a sticky.

Thanks,
Smitty

Target19
04-20-2011, 3:23 PM
Hell yeah!!!
Way to go Smitty!!!
$35 for one gun is right!!!

mikeinla
04-20-2011, 3:55 PM
What is the point of complaining WITHOUT giving the name of the FFL???

a1c
04-20-2011, 4:00 PM
What is the point of complaining WITHOUT giving the name of the FFL???

The FFL is going to be straightened by the DOJ. Maybe they charged $60 out of ignorance. They're going to clean up their act, and we might as well give them a chance.

mikeinla
04-20-2011, 4:11 PM
The FFL is going to be straightened by the DOJ. Maybe they charged $60 out of ignorance. They're going to clean up their act, and we might as well give them a chance.

"Maybe they charged $60 out of ignorance"


Did the FFL open up yesterday???? If the FFL cannot understand SIMPLE rules do you really think they should be selling firearms??

mlevans66
04-20-2011, 4:11 PM
Thank for the info!

GILMORE619
04-20-2011, 4:14 PM
Does the DOJ strictly enforce this ?

Wonderwhippet
04-20-2011, 4:20 PM
I no longer do transfers at Duncan's Gun Works in San Marcos, as they charged me $50 and claimed it was strictly legal.

kmca
04-20-2011, 4:21 PM
If you could get a letter from the DOJ and post it here, others could print it out and take it with them for their next PPT

smittty
04-20-2011, 4:31 PM
It was Shooters Paradise/B&G Guns in Oxnard. They told us it was $25 and then added $35 dealer fee for a total of $60. They have been in business a long time and know the rules. We ended up driving to Battlefield Sports in Ventura who charge $35.

DOJ assures me they do enforce this.

The thing the FFL's need to understand is that the PPT fee is regulated to encourage us to do business thru them. Charging more only p'd me off.

The shooter's Paradise experience was on Sunday. Yesterday I was trying to arrange to buy a gun thru PPT and needed to find an FFL in Thousand Oaks area but all the FFL's I called told me they charge $60 for PPT. The seller didn't want to drive the extra distance to another FFL that charges $35 so I decided to not buy the gun. I was frustrated enough to call DOJ.

Good FFL's that I know of that charge $35 are:

Battlefield Sports - Ventura
Uncle Paul's - Ventura
Far West Gun - Santa Barbara

We should make a list!

Smitty

smittty
04-20-2011, 4:32 PM
If you could get a letter from the DOJ and post it here, others could print it out and take it with them for their next PPT

That's a very good idea! I will call them again and ask about that and get confirmation about the fees for more than one gun beacause I know that question will come up.

Smitty

bug_eyedmonster
04-20-2011, 4:39 PM
Hey Guys,

Just a heads up... when I was visiting a friend in Southern California, we stopped by a local gun shop to pick up some ammo before a shoot. I was talking to them about standard business, and I saw a sign posted regarding PPTs and storage fees. Apparently, they had the approval from the DOJ to charge the standard $35 for the transfer, but were able to tack on a storage fee for every day after the 240th hour. I don't think it was a substantial amount, somewhere around the $7 range, but something I've never seen before. When I asked about it, he simply said "our store, our rules." I just laughed and went on my way. I can't remember the store name, but it was very small but very busy near the 410 near the LAX airport.

Jerry

Skunk2Racer
04-20-2011, 5:02 PM
Don't you mean 405 fwy? Was it north or south of LAX?

bug_eyedmonster
04-20-2011, 5:04 PM
Don't you mean 405 fwy? Was it north or south of LAX?

Yeah, sorry, I meant 405. I was thinking in my head if it was the 110 or the 405. I remembered the conversation we had about traffic on the 405 on the way there. I don't remember if we were going north or southbound to be honest, it was about three years ago.

Jerry

kemasa
04-20-2011, 5:11 PM
I am in Simi Valley and charge the legal fee of $35 for a PPT. I would assume Fort Courage Armory would also charge the correct amount.

Target19
04-20-2011, 5:17 PM
Only dealer fee allowed on a PPT is the $10 that they get.
Storage fees can be charged I believe after 30 days when DROS.

docflash
04-20-2011, 5:18 PM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law.

Whenever I do a PPT I tell my FFL how much I appreciate their effort and make sure to buy something in the store, even if it's just some ammo.

Jeff

ke6guj
04-20-2011, 5:27 PM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law.


unfortunately, that is the cost of having an FFL. They knew that that was the law before they signed up. But the smart dealers look at it this way, "I get three shots to sell a customer something while they are forced to be in my store to do the PPT transfer". Many industries would pay to be able have people forced to come into their shop.


Whenever I do a PPT I tell my FFL how much I appreciate their effort and make sure to buy something in the store, even if it's just some ammo.

Jeffnothing wrong with that, if you want to. but it shouldn't be forced.

Target19
04-20-2011, 5:38 PM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law.

Whenever I do a PPT I tell my FFL how much I appreciate their effort and make sure to buy something in the store, even if it's just some ammo.

Jeff

Very true indeed.
I didn't make the rule.
FFL's that are cool with PPT always get extra business from me.

oldsmoboat
04-20-2011, 5:47 PM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law.

Whenever I do a PPT I tell my FFL how much I appreciate their effort and make sure to buy something in the store, even if it's just some ammo.

Jeff
They are getting screwed. The answer is that it shouldn't be a requirement, not raise fees.

kemasa
04-20-2011, 5:49 PM
The firearm can not be transferred if the buyer does not pick it up before 30 days.


12082 ...
The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805.


12076 is DROS fees and 12805 is the HSC.

Blackhawk556
04-20-2011, 6:15 PM
What ever happen with that guy that paid $80? At the cow palace gun show the other day?

Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

Khanan
04-20-2011, 9:20 PM
Shooters Paradise sucks. They actually told me they would not let me take the HSC test unless I was going to buy a gun. Isn't that the wrong way to go about it? Don't I need the HSC BEFORE I am legally allowed to purchase a gun? I say F Shooter's Paradise. It is more that a damn hole in the wall. They will never get a dime out of me.

OTH, I have 7 days left to pickup my brand new gun that I purchased from Uncle Paul's.

smittty
04-20-2011, 9:24 PM
Only dealer fee allowed on a PPT is the $10 that they get.
Storage fees can be charged I believe after 30 days when DROS.

Yes, $10 is all they are legally allowed to charge. This is a condition of having an FFL, period!

Keep in mind that you came into their store to do business and by doing so you are giving them the opportunity to entice you to buy something. If you go elsewhere they don't get that opportunity for your business.

I left Shooters Paradise on Sunday with the mindset that I will never return.

I do feel like going back to Battlefield Sports to check out the other cool stuff they had. The guy behind the gun counter was very curtious and professional. They gained my business simply by charging the regulated amount for PPT and they are open on Sundays.

I don't know the fees for gun left after 30 days other than I know it needs to be dros'd again.

Smitty

Requiem
04-20-2011, 9:27 PM
So does this $35 only for a ppt include them receiving a shipped firearm? Because every single gun store I've called charges more for receiving a shipped firearm than just doing the transfer face to face in the store.

smittty
04-20-2011, 9:29 PM
So does this $35 only for a ppt include them receiving a shipped firearm? Because every single gun store I've called charges more for receiving a shipped firearm than just doing the transfer face to face in the store.

Receiving a shipped gun is not a Private Party Transfer. FFL's can charge you what ever your agreement is with them.

CSACANNONEER
04-20-2011, 9:30 PM
I am in Simi Valley and charge the legal fee of $35 for a PPT. I would assume Fort Courage Armory would also charge the correct amount.

Along with these two great options I'd like to add a third, Thompson's Tactical in Thousand Oaks. I would use any of these three without hesitation. I've used two of them already. Unfortunately, I just haven't had the pleasure of doing bussiness with kemasa yet.

bline01
04-20-2011, 9:33 PM
wow good looking out.

cmichini
04-20-2011, 9:34 PM
Hey Guys,

Just a heads up... when I was visiting a friend in Southern California, we stopped by a local gun shop to pick up some ammo before a shoot. I was talking to them about standard business, and I saw a sign posted regarding PPTs and storage fees. Apparently, they had the approval from the DOJ to charge the standard $35 for the transfer, but were able to tack on a storage fee for every day after the 240th hour. I don't think it was a substantial amount, somewhere around the $7 range, but something I've never seen before. When I asked about it, he simply said "our store, our rules." I just laughed and went on my way. I can't remember the store name, but it was very small but very busy near the 410 near the LAX airport.

Jerry

Did you see a memo from DOJ saying that fee for 240 hrs + 1 was kosher or was it part of the brown, corn-filled sludge eminating from the gunshop employee's mouth? If it's kosher you'd better be able to show up after 240 + 00:01 and get your g-damned gun!! Sounds like corn-fed with the our store, our rules. You'd be wise to give DOJ a heads up.

As for OP, Smitty - you GO. Thank goodness someone is making sure that FFL's that break the law with respect to PPT fees get a serious amount of ***-hurt. It's actually amazing that the CA DOJ is doing what one could construe as the 'right thing'. What you're doing is a mitzvah and a civic duty. You are a doing a good thing and the gun gods will look positively upon you.

Munk
04-20-2011, 11:16 PM
It's starting to amaze me how many threads are popping up about this. Is it becoming more common, or is it just now coming to light, and everyone is jumping in to share their experience?


Did you see a memo from DOJ saying that fee for 240 hrs + 1 was kosher or was it part of the brown, corn-filled sludge eminating from the gunshop employee's mouth? If it's kosher you'd better be able to show up after 240 + 00:01 and get your g-damned gun!! Sounds like corn-fed with the our store, our rules. You'd be wise to give DOJ a heads up.

As for OP, Smitty - you GO. Thank goodness someone is making sure that FFL's that break the law with respect to PPT fees get a serious amount of ***-hurt. It's actually amazing that the CA DOJ is doing what one could construe as the 'right thing'. What you're doing is a mitzvah and a civic duty. You are a doing a good thing and the gun gods will look positively upon you.


I seem to recall that storage fees beyond the 10day are OK. However, PPT fees above 35$ are a misdemeanor (on the part of the FFL).

Cokebottle
04-20-2011, 11:21 PM
In fairness, it IS possible for you to be required to pay more than $35 and it still be legal.

PPT fee = $35, no ifs ands, or buts.
HSC if you don't have one = $25
Cable lock if the seller didn't bring one = $5-$15

But just the PPT fee and HSC is $60....

hill billy
04-20-2011, 11:27 PM
In fairness, it IS possible for you to be required to pay more than $35 and it still be legal.

PPT fee = $35, no ifs ands, or buts.
HSC if you don't have one = $25
Cable lock if the seller didn't bring one = $5-$15

But just the PPT fee and HSC is $60....

I recently had an FFL try to tell me that the lock I brought with the Glock I was PPT'ing was no good because it was not the original lock that came with the gun.

Cyc Wid It
04-20-2011, 11:27 PM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law.

Whenever I do a PPT I tell my FFL how much I appreciate their effort and make sure to buy something in the store, even if it's just some ammo.

Jeff

You've got to be kidding me. It's not rocket science. It's $10 for something that should take a competent person < 5 minutes to do start to finish. Some stores wouldn't get any inbound traffic at all if it weren't for PPT's.

Cokebottle
04-20-2011, 11:32 PM
I recently had an FFL try to tell me that the lock I brought with the Glock I was PPT'ing was no good because it was not the original lock that came with the gun.
It's a tough call because of the way California law is written.

Federal law simply says that the handgun must be "provided with" a lock.
California requires a receipt from within 30 days.
The "provided" lock with new guns flies because it is a part of the gun purchase (though not itemized on the receipt.

OMHO, and that of many FFLs, a PPT is no different. The gun is being provided with a lock, and the buyer is purchasing it from the seller.

But some FFLS don't see it that way and still require you to buy the lock, even if the seller is providing the original lock that came with the gun.

nick
04-20-2011, 11:36 PM
Sure they weren't talking about an FFL transfer? So far I've only seen one FFL that tried to charge over $35 for a PPT.

smittty
04-21-2011, 12:38 AM
Guys you are getting carried away with this. The max fee is $35!

They cannot charge you a storage or handling fee. They cannot force you to buy a lock but if they try to then have them give you the affidavit form for you to fill out the make/model of safe you have at home. If you do this make sure your safe is on the California approved list!

The HSC is something completely different. If the buyer doesn't have an HSC then obvisouly he needs to get one before he can do a PPT. The HSC is $25 and not part of the $35 max PPT fee.

You guys trying to come up with ways that an FFL might justify charging more is simply retarded.

Regarding the definition of Privat Party Transfer, it's two people meeting face to face in front of the FFL to complete their transaction. The FFL does the dros, someone pays $35, FFL holds the gun, buyer picks it up after 10 days.

I posted this to inform people that DOJ confirmed the maximum fee is $35. If you are being asked to pay more then educate the FFL and if he doesn't get it and ONLY if you feel the duty to your fellow calgunners then report him to DOJ. If you don't care then pay what ever they ask and be happy.

Smitty

halifax
04-21-2011, 4:56 AM
Did you see a memo from DOJ saying that fee for 240 hrs + 1 was kosher or was it part of the brown, corn-filled sludge eminating from the gunshop employee's mouth? If it's kosher you'd better be able to show up after 240 + 00:01 and get your g-damned gun!! Sounds like corn-fed with the our store, our rules. You'd be wise to give DOJ a heads up.

...

Do you mean this bulletin?

REQUIREMENT FOR DEALERS TO CONDUCT PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS / ALLOWABLE FEES (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf)

Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee.

Whether it is right or wrong, I don't know, but it is still posted on the BOF website.

glock7
04-21-2011, 6:26 AM
The FFL is going to be straightened by the DOJ. Maybe they charged $60 out of ignorance. They're going to clean up their act, and we might as well give them a chance.

they won't they pulled that on me a few months ago, i was buying a lower from my buddy and they said they don't like doing ppt's so they had to charge a "storage fee" to make it worth their while. their range fees and ammo prices are a bit high also, but they are the only indoor range in ventura county so they got everyone by the short hairs. :cool:

hill billy
04-21-2011, 7:02 AM
They cannot charge you a storage or handling fee. They cannot force you to buy a lock but if they try to then have them give you the affidavit form for you to fill out the make/model of safe you have at home. If you do this make sure your safe is on the California approved list!



Last I looked, the safe affidavit was only for long guns.

CSACANNONEER
04-21-2011, 7:46 AM
Last I looked, the safe affidavit was only for long guns.

Nope. The safe affidavit will fullfill CALIFORNIA's requirement for a "lock or safe" for a handgun. A lock is still needed to meet Federal law BUT, if a safe affidavit is filled out, the lock would not need to be California approved nor would on need to produce a receipt for it. Unfortunately, many FFLs are not bright enough to realize/understand this and/or want to make an extra couple bucks off the sale of a lock.

CS Sports
04-21-2011, 7:56 AM
Guys you are getting carried away with this. The max fee is $35!

They cannot charge you a storage or handling fee. Smitty

The DOJ seems to disagree with you:

"Subsequent to the end of the 10-day waiting period or one business day following
the notification of the purchaser that his/her DROS has been released from a DOJ
required “hold”, the dealer may charge a storage fee. However, such fees must be
clearly posted and may not be misrepresented as any governmental fee."

Source (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf)


They cannot force you to buy a lock but if they try to then have them give you the affidavit form for you to fill out the make/model of safe you have at home. If you do this make sure your safe is on the California approved list!

Smitty

If it is a handgun, the affidavit will not work. Thank the Feds.

Moto4Fun
04-21-2011, 8:20 AM
I did a PPT last week and was charged $38. Maybe the $3 was for a lock. I don't know what the law is on locks and when it went in to effect, but I have done no fewer than 5 PPTs in the last 6 months at 4 different FFLs and none of them have said anything about a lock.

JagerTroop
04-21-2011, 8:28 AM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law...
They are getting screwed. The answer is that it shouldn't be a requirement, not raise fees.

Absolutely!

The reason for the low fee is to encourage ppt buyers/sellers to complete the transfer legally. If a larger fee were imposed by dealers, buyers/sellers would ignore the legal process. So, we have the $10 max fee. In turn, screwing dealers. Heaping paperwork on them, and requiring them to (essentially) "give away" their services. A much simpler solution would've been to make it legal to cash&carry ppt's. It's working just fine for most every other state. I guess Ca just has to be different :rolleyes:

RoundEye
04-21-2011, 10:35 AM
I just started my third DROS in recent months for a PPT at Gun World in Burbank. They only charged me $35, but they made me buy a $20 lock. I asked if I could bring one an the employee Joe said no.

I know that the law says as long as the reciept was within 30 days, but I just didn't want the hassle of having to fight about it. I've been thinking about it tr last couple of days, and I think I'll dispute the charge with my CC company after I pick it up.

hill billy
04-21-2011, 10:37 AM
I just started my third DROS in recent months for a PPT at Gun World in Burbank. They only charged me $35, but they made me buy a $20 lock. I asked if I could bring one an the employee Joe said no.

I know that the law says as long as the reciept was within 30 days, but I just didn't want the hassle of having to fight about it. I've been thinking about it tr last couple of days, and I think I'll dispute the charge with my CC company after I pick it up.
Joes not a bad guy, (if it's the same Joe that used to be there) but he's just wrong on that one.

Oldnoob
04-21-2011, 12:42 PM
King's armory in Burband charged me $50 (or was $55) for the PPT. They even had a sign post up saying the CA DOJ charge $35 and the store charge $15 or $50 for the storge/handling fee. I was PPTing a gun that I "had to have" so I paid it. But no way in hell I'll ever go back there to do any business with them.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 2:03 PM
You've got to be kidding me. It's not rocket science. It's $10 for something that should take a competent person < 5 minutes to do start to finish. Some stores wouldn't get any inbound traffic at all if it weren't for PPT's.

Perhaps instead of making claims that it all takes only 5 minutes or less, you should really investigate the time that it really takes, from start to finish, not just the time that you happen to see.

But regardless, the law is the law and the fee is limited. As the CA DOJ says, storage can be charged, so if the place that you go to charges for storage after the 10 days, you need to make sure you get in there right away.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 2:37 PM
Federal law simply says that the handgun must be "provided with" a lock.
...
The "provided" lock with new guns flies because it is a part of the gun purchase (though not itemized on the receipt.
...
But some FFLS don't see it that way and still require you to buy the lock, even if the seller is providing the original lock that came with the gun.

According to the BATF attorney that I talked to, his claim was that the FFL has to provide the lock or safe, not that it has been provided by someone. Now, the BATF has not published the requirements, as they are supposed to, so it is basically unenforced unless a BATF agent sees the FFL not providing the lock.

Cyc Wid It
04-21-2011, 2:51 PM
Perhaps instead of making claims that it all takes only 5 minutes or less, you should really investigate the time that it really takes, from start to finish, not just the time that you happen to see.

But regardless, the law is the law and the fee is limited. As the CA DOJ says, storage can be charged, so if the place that you go to charges for storage after the 10 days, you need to make sure you get in there right away.

I don't frequent establishments that can't seem to take care of the minimum baseline requirements. Fill out the forms correctly, label the container for the item, note it in your inventory, put it in the safe, check to see if 240 hours are up. Really, it's not complicated and its part of being in the business.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 3:20 PM
The simple fact is that it does not just take 5 minutes. If you think it does, then you are wrong and should learn the facts instead of making false statements.

halifax
04-21-2011, 3:46 PM
According to the BATF attorney that I talked to, his claim was that the FFL has to provide the lock or safe, not that it has been provided by someone. Now, the BATF has not published the requirements, as they are supposed to, so it is basically unenforced unless a BATF agent sees the FFL not providing the lock.

Did the BATF attorney say where the FFL must aquire those locks that he/she will be providing to the transferee?

cindynles
04-21-2011, 3:47 PM
The simple fact is that it does not just take 5 minutes. If you think it does, then you are wrong and should learn the facts instead of making false statements.

The last time I did a PPT it took 7 minutes from the time I started it till I paid the $35 and was on my way.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 4:18 PM
Did the BATF attorney say where the FFL must aquire those locks that he/she will be providing to the transferee?

No.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 4:19 PM
The last time I did a PPT it took 7 minutes from the time I started it till I paid the $35 and was on my way.

Yeah, that is all the time that you happen to see.

CSACANNONEER
04-21-2011, 4:29 PM
The simple fact is that it does not just take 5 minutes. If you think it does, then you are wrong and should learn the facts instead of making false statements.

While I'm not going to argue with you since, you know a lot more about this than me, I have had highly respected FFLs tell me that it only takes 10 minutes or less of their time to do a PPT. I think it does depend on the shop and how efficient the FFL really is.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 4:38 PM
You have to look at the complete time, which often is overlooked. Entering the firearm into the bound book, logging the firearm out, etc. If the customer is fast, then it can take less time, if the customer is slow, than it can take much longer.

Your response, that is only takes 10 minutes, is double the 5 minutes, and is still more than the 7 minutes. Customers only look at the time that they see and ignore all of the behind the scenes time since if they don't see it, it does not exist.

The bottom line is that it takes more time than people see, but the fee is still limited by law and the law should be followed. It would be interesting to see how long it takes, but part of the problem is that it would take additional time to record the time that each step takes.

I personally don't care for the charging of storage after 10 days, but it can be done. If the time ends 10 minutes before the place closes, does that allow for charging for a day's storage? Perhaps, but I think it is a bad idea. The dealer can not charge for storage before it happens since they don't know and try getting the money when the customer is picking it up. It just annoys people and that is a good way to ensure that customers don't come back.

12voltguy
04-21-2011, 4:53 PM
The simple fact is that it does not just take 5 minutes. If you think it does, then you are wrong and should learn the facts instead of making false statements.

teach us
exactly how long does it take?
I want to learn the facts, so splain the facts & your source of said facts please.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 5:01 PM
It depends on the people involved, plus how the FFL keeps their bound book. Some FFLs work by appointment, which can take longer since you need to block out time and be prepared. It also depends on how many firearms you have and how easy it is to find the firearm when it comes time to pick it up.

The source of my facts? You mean like the fact that I am a FFL and have processed PPTs? Perhaps you should give the source of your facts.

for2nato
04-21-2011, 5:16 PM
heres my .02
first off if you need a lock then say f the ffl thats trying to make you buy one. go to your local fish n game office and they will give you a brand new lock in the package. then go to get your gun. but dont open the package to the lock until you have your gun.

the federal law only applies to new handguns. not used ppt guns. california is forcing you to reg all your gun purchases and forcing ffls to handle the whole deal. most ffls are pissed about this so they try to charge for every thing possible. and some things that arent.
my thought is, if you hold an ffl in california you should suck it up and stay within the boundaries of the law. if you want a business that operates without state interference then move your shop out of california. youd probably increase your annual revenue anyway.

ke6guj
04-21-2011, 5:28 PM
heres my .02
first off if you need a lock then say f the ffl thats trying to make you buy one. go to your local fish n game office and they will give you a brand new lock in the package. then go to get your gun. but dont open the package to the lock until you have your gun.

the federal law only applies to new handguns. not used ppt guns. california is forcing you to reg all your gun purchases and forcing ffls to handle the whole deal. most ffls are pissed about this so they try to charge for every thing possible. and some things that arent.
.922(z) applies to PPT transfers, not just new handguns.
922(z) SECURE GUN STORAGE OR
SAFTEY DEVICE—
(1) IN GENERAL- Except as
Provided under paragraph (2), it shall
be unlawful for any licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, or
licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or
transfer any handgun to any person
other than any person licensed under
this chapter, unless the transferee is
provided with a secure gun storage
or safety device (as defined in sec
tion 921(a)(34)) for than handgun.unless there is an exemption to 922(z) that you can point to.

kemasa
04-21-2011, 5:33 PM
if you hold an ffl in california you should suck it up and stay within the boundaries of the law.

I agree with this part. Well, actually, not completely since I don't personally think that a FFL should charge for storage for a PPT after 10 days, as that is within the boundaries of the law.

oldsmoboat
04-21-2011, 5:34 PM
5 minutes, 7 minutes, 10 minutes.
So I guess the hour and forty five minutes it took me at TDS was unreasonable?

kemasa
04-21-2011, 5:41 PM
One hour, 45 minutes? Unless there was a line of customers in front of you, not just that others were helped before you, or that there is some other valid reason why it took that long, that seems completely unreasonable, at least in my opinion.

The time it takes depends on many things. There was one firearm that I had to find out where the serial number was hidden and then take the firearm apart to get to it. Long guns are typically faster than handguns. If the DL does not read in, then it takes longer. If seller wants a copy of the DROS, then it takes a bit longer (see the CA PC to understand why), if the FFL follows the law.

Oh, it can also take longer depending on if the firearm has a locking case or not. If you don't follow the law, it is much quicker.

dfletcher
04-21-2011, 6:05 PM
heres my .02
first off if you need a lock then say f the ffl thats trying to make you buy one. go to your local fish n game office and they will give you a brand new lock in the package. then go to get your gun. but dont open the package to the lock until you have your gun.



If you go to fish & game or the police you need to get a receipt showing the lock was "purchased" or received within the last 30 days. The lock is unimportant, the receipt is what counts. I've many times bought more than 1 gun in 30 days, I show up with the same receipt as long as possible.

CSACANNONEER
04-21-2011, 7:07 PM
heres my .02
first off if you need a lock then say f the ffl thats trying to make you buy one. go to your local fish n game office and they will give you a brand new lock in the package. then go to get your gun. but dont open the package to the lock until you have your gun.

the federal law only applies to new handguns. not used ppt guns. california is forcing you to reg all your gun purchases and forcing ffls to handle the whole deal. most ffls are pissed about this so they try to charge for every thing possible. and some things that arent.
my thought is, if you hold an ffl in california you should suck it up and stay within the boundaries of the law. if you want a business that operates without state interference then move your shop out of california. youd probably increase your annual revenue anyway.

I don't understand what you are saying here. If you are trying to tell me that Ca forces me to register all my guns, you're wrong. If you think that by PPTing a long gun it becomes "registered", you're wrong. If you think that all firearms trasactions between two California residents must go through a FFL, you're wrong. So, since I don't want to believe that any gun owner could be this misinformed about the law, I'm asking you to clarify your statement.

mhho
04-21-2011, 8:11 PM
Do you mean this bulletin?

REQUIREMENT FOR DEALERS TO CONDUCT PRIVATE PARTY TRANSFERS / ALLOWABLE FEES (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf)


Thanks Halifax. That is so useful to stop the FUD from spreading, I am going to make it part of my signature.

halifax
04-21-2011, 8:45 PM
The DROS fees listed in that bulletin have change since it was written. They are currently

DROS Fee $19
Safety & Enforcement Fee $5
Safety Training Fee $1

Total DROS Fees $25

CAglock20c
04-21-2011, 8:59 PM
im so sick and tired of FFL's over charging for transfer fees, etc

Cokebottle
04-21-2011, 9:05 PM
if the customer is slow, than it can take much longer.
Or if it's Turner's, where you get the 20 minute FUD speech about how you can't transport the ammo in the same vehicle as the gun and the ammo must be locked up (gee, they didn't make me buy a lock box when I bought ammo from them).

It's a handgun safety DEMONSTRATION... not CLASS.

Hand me the effing gun and dummy round and I will demonstrate for you the same I have 5 times in the last 18 months :rolleyes:

Munk
04-21-2011, 9:19 PM
Here's what I don't get.... stores have a ***** of a time getting customers in, and to stick around. That's where most advertising money goes. Getting people to show up is biggest hurdle. Gun stores have this thing that forces customers to show up from time to time when they need to transfer. Then they try to alienate the customer by giving them a big hassle over the transfer and dragging things out (1hr45?... wow) and trying to charge them a fee that makes them guilty of a misdemeanor.

So the store gets 10$ to do 15-20 minutes of work (how long it took while I was shooting the breeze with customer and the FFL) AND has the benefit of the customer browsing their wares while they're there.

All I hear when an FFL complains about PPT fees being too low is: "How DARE you come into my store and browse through my goods, why would you even think of purchasing something from me? Get out of my store and take your disposable income with you!"

smittty
04-21-2011, 9:28 PM
Munk, that's exactly how I feel about it so I called DOJ and if I another FFL tells me something more than $35 I'm happy to call them again.

CaliB&R
04-21-2011, 9:29 PM
Why are we arguing if $10 is enough or not? I don't know what FFLs get paid per hour, but at $10/hr or even $20/hr that should buy 1hr or 30min of their time. Either one should be enough time to fill out a form, log into a bound book, insert into and later remove from a safe a firearm.

smittty
04-21-2011, 9:35 PM
Why are we arguing if $10 is enough or not? I don't know what FFLs get paid per hour, but at $10/hr or even $20/hr that should buy 1hr or 30min of their time. Either one should be enough time to fill out a form, log into a bound book, insert into and later remove from a safe a firearm.

The $10 fee has nothing to do with the time it takes to complete the task. It's simply a fee regulated by DOJ.

The purpose for regulating it to only $10 is to encourage us to do PPT thru an FFL. Performing PPT's is a condition of having an FFL. It's that simple.

CaliB&R
04-21-2011, 9:40 PM
Whats with the big text? I was agreeing with you in a way. I was saying why are we arguing over it cause it is regulated at that amount. And our huffing and puffing won't change it.

smittty
04-21-2011, 9:54 PM
Whats with the big text? I was agreeing with you in a way. I was saying why are we arguing over it cause it is regulated at that amount. And our huffing and puffing won't change it.

Sorry about the big text. It's a feature I never used before. I'm not huffing but to be honest I'm confused why some feel the need to argue in the other direction. I remember this topic came up recently and lots of guys complained about the high fees being charged for PPT's. Reading that recent topic combined with my own recent experience prompted me to get to the bottom of this.

I feel it's resolved.

Thanks.
Smitty

docflash
04-22-2011, 9:12 AM
I personally think the FFL's are getting screwed in this transaction. $10 for all that hassle is not worth it to them, but they have to do it by law.

Whenever I do a PPT I tell my FFL how much I appreciate their effort and make sure to buy something in the store, even if it's just some ammo.

Jeff


You've got to be kidding me. It's not rocket science. It's $10 for something that should take a competent person < 5 minutes to do start to finish. Some stores wouldn't get any inbound traffic at all if it weren't for PPT's.

Nope, not kidding at all. Making copies of ID's for both parties, copying second form of residency, filling out the paperwork and entering the info for the DOJ then 10 days later going through the handling demo and all that is way more than five minutes. If there's a place in SoCal where I can do a PPT in less than 5 minutes, then please let me know because I'm going there from now on.

Jeff

kemasa
04-22-2011, 9:31 AM
im so sick and tired of FFL's over charging for transfer fees, etc

If you are talking about PPTs, then convince people to complaint to the CA DOJ about it, as well as reporting it here, so that it is documented (both the complaint to the DOJ and the place). Far too often people complain here about being overcharged, but refuse to actually do something about it. There are even those that complain about people complaining about a particular FFL, even though if the FFL charges more than allowed by law, the FFL is violating the law and stealing from people.

If you are talking about other transfers, there is no overcharging as the FFL can charge whatever they want. If you don't like what they charge, then find another FFL who charges what you find acceptable, but realize that there are a lot of costs involved in being a FFL, as well as a lot of time dealing with paperwork.

Jack L
04-22-2011, 10:57 AM
I recently did two PPT's and wanted to do another yesterday but all the FFL's I called in the Thousand Oaks area said the charge $60.

This p'd me off enough to call DOJ to find out if they enforce the max $35 PPT fee and they said the do. I was told it's $25 dros + $10 dealer fee and they are not allowed to charge any handling fee, etc. It's $35 max, period!

The FFL that tried to charge me $60 on Sunday is going to get a visit by the DOJ.

This topic should be a sticky.

Thanks,
Smitty

Good move. These FFL's know what they are doing and are trying to circumvent the issue with B.S. reasons for the extra $. Go get em' DOJ.

molasses2k
04-23-2011, 8:18 PM
GW also charged me $19.99 for a gun lock and didn't even mention the safe affidavit on a longgun ppt.
Way to piss me off and alienate a customer.
Lame.

LBDamned
04-23-2011, 8:42 PM
regarding the lock situation... buy the lock, keep the receipt, return the lock and get refund.

I started doing this after getting a drawer full of locks and decided f-this... it's not the price so much as the principal - I have boatloads of locks that have never been out of the packaging and I can't use them to buy a new gun... so I just return them now.