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scorpio66
04-20-2011, 12:21 PM
Hello all, I'm a newbie to this forum and a female who lives alone. I live in Oakland, CA. and there seems to be a fair amount of break-ins in my neighborhood and I am armed with a Remy 870 and a Walther P99. However, I was searching this site in order to know my rights and the CA laws of defending myself while at home in case of a home invasion.

Is there a section on this forum that I am missing because I didn't see anything in particular to this? I just read on my neighborhood crime forum that 4 guys kicked in the back door of a homeowner while he was THERE and beat him up and robbed him. WTF, how does this happen? Because I can tell you that guys like this must have cojones! If someone tries this while I'm home, they are going to have one big surprise waiting for them by the name of Mr. 870.

What I'm really looking for is the actual literature for CA. law that spells out my rights to protect my home.

Thanks

GrizzlyGuy
04-20-2011, 12:29 PM
A good start is to read the actual statutes that relate to justifiable homicide: 197 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/197.html), 198 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/198.html) and 198.5 PC (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/198.5.html). See also this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4838992#post4838992) for additional clarification.

Stonewalker
04-20-2011, 12:33 PM
Basically it comes down to if you can articulate a reasonable fear of your life or grievous injury then lethal force is OK for self-defense. Defense of property with lethal force will generally land you with charges against you, even though the relevant PC says otherwise.

Somebody breaking into your house (especially at night, but also during the day) counts as reasonable fear for you life or grievous injury.

odysseus
04-20-2011, 12:39 PM
Home invasion type crimes are up in the Oakland area, as is my understanding. Usually a crew of 2-4, mostly younger criminal types (some in their teens) - some armed and definitely dangerous. Search around CGN, there are large discussions on this topic about self defense and the home.

Without going into the legalistic points on this, I will add my own opinion. You are well within your rights to defend yourself from the threat of harm with lethal force to stop the aggression. If someone breaks into your home with you inside and comes into your direction, you are well within your rights that in being threatened with harm, you shoot to stop. Just the act of someone breaking into your home with you in it is a threat in itself. I will not shoot someone if they immediately flee, nor will I chase after them, nor would I if I saw them with property leaving and they made no threat to myself or others. Property is not worth it, personal safety is worth it.

Caladain
04-20-2011, 12:43 PM
Remember, Every Bullet is sold with a Lawyer attached.

If you do defend yourself, shut up afterward and don't say a word to the police. "I was in fear for my life". Nothing more..you could have the cleanest shoot in the world and talking to the police won't help you one bit. Repeat: Shut up afterward and get a lawyer immediately.

edit: Added to say: Don't talk to *anyone* actually. Answer any medical questions if the EMT asks, but don't call your mom, don't talk to your GF/wife/kids beyond assessing if she's/they're okay. Get a lawyer ASAP.

The Machine
04-20-2011, 1:03 PM
There are also some conditions that an attacker must meet before deadly force is justified.

Intent: An attacker must make verbal or non verbal threats of violence.

Opportunity: A person must believe that this violence is to happen right now, not some time in the future.

Ability: An attacker must posses the ability to carry out a verbal or physical threat. If an attacker threatens to shoot, but has no gun, this condition is not met.

As a side note, I would research defensive ammo and train with your gear.

Stonewalker
04-20-2011, 1:09 PM
There are also some conditions that an attacker must meet before deadly force is justified.

Intent: An attacker must make verbal or non verbal threats of violence.

Opportunity: A person must believe that this violence is to happen right now, not some time in the future.

Ability: An attacker must posses the ability to carry out a verbal or physical threat. If an attacker threatens to shoot, but has no gun, this condition is not met.

As a side note, I would research defensive ammo and train with your gear.

Don't get too hung up on that. If it's the middle of the night and there are men in your house who shouldn't be there - do what you have to do.

socal2310
04-20-2011, 1:11 PM
There are also some conditions that an attacker must meet before deadly force is justified.

Intent: An attacker must make verbal or non verbal threats of violence.

Opportunity: A person must believe that this violence is to happen right now, not some time in the future.

Ability: An attacker must posses the ability to carry out a verbal or physical threat. If an attacker threatens to shoot, but has no gun, this condition is not met.

As a side note, I would research defensive ammo and train with your gear.

In the case of a home invasion, provided it was a forcible entry and the person is not a member of your household, intent, opportunity, and ability are presumed according to 198.5 pc

Ryan

Stonewalker
04-20-2011, 1:13 PM
In the case of a home invasion, provided it was a forcible entry and the person is not a member of your household, intent, opportunity, and ability are presumed according to 198.5 pc

Ryan

Yes, you're right Ryan, that IS a better way of saying what I said :)

a1c
04-20-2011, 1:14 PM
A shotgun is nice. A handgun is good too.

But first thing you need to do is invest in good locks AND an alarm system.

I get very annoyed when some acquaintances ask me (because I'm the one gun guy they know) what kind of firearm they should get for home protection, and it turns out they have a main door with a single standard lock and no home security at all.

Get a good set of locks on your doors, bars on your windows if necessary, and invest in a basic home security solution. THEN you should worry about the adequacy of your arsenal, and the fine print in the law - common sense prevails, and you can defend yourself within your home (no chasing them outside in the street) if you feel your life is threatened.

Now get some good locks and an alarm system. Your 870 should be the last resort, not your main line of defense.

The Machine
04-20-2011, 1:17 PM
If it's the middle of the night and there are men in your house who shouldn't be there - do what you have to do.

I don't disagree at all, but if the looks of Mr. 870 makes them think twice, then don't force the issue.

I know a lot of guys name their rifles with a girls name, what's Mr. 870's name?

No, I don't plan to meet him.

J.D.Allen
04-20-2011, 1:20 PM
There are also some conditions that an attacker must meet before deadly force is justified.

Intent: An attacker must make verbal or non verbal threats of violence.

Opportunity: A person must believe that this violence is to happen right now, not some time in the future.

Ability: An attacker must posses the ability to carry out a verbal or physical threat. If an attacker threatens to shoot, but has no gun, this condition is not met.

As a side note, I would research defensive ammo and train with your gear.

Those conditions do not apply in a home invasion. Under the law, if someone forcibly enters your home you are presumed to have reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI. Once they are inside, if you didn't let them in, shoot them.

9unknown
04-20-2011, 1:20 PM
Check out this book:

How to own a gun and stay out of jail: California 2010 edition
http://www.gunlawpress.com/

Should answer all the questions you have and then some. It even provides documentation of certain cases where people have gone to trial for using lethal force, sometimes under the right circumstances, and other times not. Highly recommended reading.

And as someone mentioned before, train with your gear, and do it often.

J.D.Allen
04-20-2011, 1:21 PM
A shotgun is nice. A handgun is good too.

But first thing you need to do is invest in good locks AND an alarm system.

I get very annoyed when some acquaintances ask me (because I'm the one gun guy they know) what kind of firearm they should get for home protection, and it turns out they have a main door with a single standard lock and no home security at all.

Get a good set of locks on your doors, bars on your windows if necessary, and invest in a basic home security solution. THEN you should worry about the adequacy of your arsenal, and the fine print in the law - common sense prevails, and you can defend yourself within your home (no chasing them outside in the street) if you feel your life is threatened.

Now get some good locks and an alarm system. Your 870 should be the last resort, not your main line of defense.

A dog is about the best first alert system one can have. That is, if you can have one...

woods
04-20-2011, 2:10 PM
Your life is worth defending. Never say sorry. They will try to trick you into writing a letter to the criminal's family saying sorry or some other dirty trick but those are to trap you into using a word that admits guilt

"I was so scared" is generally ok but you never know what is going to come out of your mouth after an event. It's my job to get information out of people after events like that and From my experience once a person starts talking they contact stop. So its safer not to say anything.

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 2:22 PM
Thank you to all your replies. Grizzly, will check out the lit. you posted. @ A1C - yes I have good locks on the doors, bars on the windows, surveillance cam's, motion detectors and Yorkie that alerts me to any and ALL noises he hears way before I could. @ odysseus's yes this seems to be the way they are breaking in by kicking in the back door as most people have older homes with weak doors and it is less visible to enter from the back. My back door is old too and I am thinking of beefing it up by replacing...there is a security door but it is old too. @ the Machine - "Bad Mofo". @ 9Unknown thanks for the info!

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 2:30 PM
Well then, another popular question is: What type of shot shell for the 870 would be good. I know everyone has different opinions on this matter even when one gives their living situation. The main question with choosing your shot shell is: just enough to stop them or to kill them. As I said, I live alone in my house that I own. My nearest neighbors exterior wall is about 10 feet from mine.

add: my main goal is to get the hell out of Oakland ASAP - I watched some guy open fire on someone else running through a parking lot right across the street from me a couple of weeks ago at 3 o'clock in the afternoon!

CaliforniaLiberal
04-20-2011, 3:14 PM
From the California Department of Justice, Bureau of Firearms website:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf

Pages 26-28


3. THE USE OF FIREARMS IN DEFENSE OF LIFE AND PROPERTY
California Firearms Laws 2007
The question of whether use of a firearm is justified for self-defense cannot be reduced to a simple
list of factors. This section is based on the instructions generally given to the jury in a criminal case
where self-defense is claimed and illustrates the general rules regarding use of firearms in self-
defense.

Use of a Firearm or Other Deadly Force in Defense of Life and Body
The killing of one person by another may be justifiable when necessary to resist the attempt
to commit a forcible and life-threatening crime, provided that a reasonable person in the same or
similar situation would believe that (a) the person killed intended to commit a forcible and life-
threatening crime; (b) there was imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the
person acted under the belief that such force was necessary to save himself or herself or another
from death or a forcible and life-threatening crime. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are
examples of forcible and life-threatening crimes.

Self-Defense Against Assault
It is lawful for a person being assaulted to defend himself or herself from attack if he or she has
reasonable grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that he or she will suffer bodily injury.
In doing so, he or she may use such force, up to deadly force, as a reasonable person in the same or
similar circumstances would believe necessary to prevent great bodily injury or death. An assault
with fists does not justify use of a deadly weapon in self-defense unless the person being assaulted
believes, and a reasonable person in the same or similar circumstances would also believe, that the
assault is likely to inflict great bodily injury.
It is lawful for a person who has grounds for believing, and does in fact believe, that great bodily
injury is about to be inflicted upon another to protect the victim from attack. In so doing, the person
may use such force as reasonably necessary to prevent the injury. Deadly force is only considered
reasonable to prevent great bodily injury or death.
NOTE: The use of excessive force to counter an assault may result in civil or criminal penalties.

Protecting Oneís Home
A person may defend his or her home against anyone who attempts to enter in a violent manner
intending violence to any person in the home. The amount of force that may be used in resisting such
entry is limited to that which would appear necessary to a reasonable person in the same or similar
circumstances to resist the violent entry. One is not bound to retreat, even though a retreat might
safely be made. One may resist force with force, increasing it in proportion to the intruderís
persistence and violence, if the circumstances apparent to the occupant would cause a reasonable
person in the same or similar situation to fear for his or her safety.
The occupant may use a firearm when resisting the intruderís attempt to commit a forcible and life-
threatening crime against anyone in the home provided that a reasonable person in the same or
similar situation would believe that (a) the intruder intends to commit a forcible and life-threatening
crime; (b) there is imminent danger of such crime being accomplished; and (c) the occupant acts
under the belief that use of a firearm is necessary to save himself or herself or another from death
or great bodily injury. Murder, mayhem, rape, and robbery are examples of forcible and life-
threatening crimes.

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her
residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily
injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person,
not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an
unlawful and forcible entry had occurred. Great bodily injury means a significant or substantial
physical injury. (Penal Code ß 198.5.)

NOTE: If the presumption is rebutted by contrary evidence, the occupant may be criminally
liable for an unlawful assault or homicide.

Defense of Property
The lawful occupant of real property has the right to request a trespasser to leave the premises.
If the trespasser does not do so within a reasonable time, the occupant may use force to eject the
trespasser.
The amount of force that may be used to eject a trespasser is limited to that which a
reasonable person would believe to be necessary under the same or similar circumstances.
Limitations on the Use of Force in Self-Defense
The right of self-defense ceases when there is no further danger from an assailant. Thus, where a
person attacked under circumstances initially justifying self-defense renders the attacker incapable
of inflicting further injuries, the law of self-defense ceases and no further force may be used.
The right of self-defense is not initially available to a person who assaults another. However, if
such person attempts to stop further combat and clearly informs the adversary of his or her desire
for peace but the opponent nevertheless continues the fight, the right of self-defense returns and is
the same as the right of any other person being assaulted.

Kid Stanislaus
04-20-2011, 3:16 PM
"I'm a newbie to this forum and a female who lives alone. I live in Oakland,...."


Maybe "Hi, I'm a newbie to this forum and I'm a puppy that lives on the freeway" would be a lot easier to understand. Do yourself an big favor and move heaven and earth to find a place to live outside of Oakland.

Kid Stanislaus
04-20-2011, 3:27 PM
There are also some conditions that an attacker must meet before deadly force is justified. Intent: An attacker must make verbal or non verbal threats of violence. Opportunity: A person must believe that this violence is to happen right now, not some time in the future.
Ability: An attacker must posses the ability to carry out a verbal or physical threat. If an attacker threatens to shoot, but has no gun, this condition is not met.

Pure gibberish. Read 198.5 of the penal code and there's NOTHING in there about about verbal or non-verbal threats, NOTHING about opportunity, NOTHING about ability. You and I are LEGALLY PRESUMED to be in fear of loss of life or suffering great bodily harm when a person (not a member of the family or household) makes a forced entry into our domicile. You don't have to do an interview to determine his intent, you don't have to check his ID, you don't have to determine that he's taken a bath in the last 90 days. You can open fire when you have determined that he made a forced entry. Don't muck it up with a bunch of stuff you may have heard from somebody who's uncle is going to law school in Arkansas.

angelina
04-20-2011, 3:28 PM
Hello all, I'm a newbie to this forum and a female who lives alone. I live in Oakland, CA. and there seems to be a fair amount of break-ins in my neighborhood and I am armed with a Remy 870 and a Walther P99. However, I was searching this site in order to know my rights and the CA laws of defending myself while at home in case of a home invasion.

Is there a section on this forum that I am missing because I didn't see anything in particular to this? I just read on my neighborhood crime forum that 4 guys kicked in the back door of a homeowner while he was THERE and beat him up and robbed him. WTF, how does this happen? Because I can tell you that guys like this must have cojones! If someone tries this while I'm home, they are going to have one big surprise waiting for them by the name of Mr. 870.

What I'm really looking for is the actual literature for CA. law that spells out my rights to protect my home.

Thanks

I'm a female that also lives alone and has wondered this same thing. there was a break in at my apartment complex and I have been wondering if someone broke in to my place at night- what do I do? someone told me that someone can come in an say I'm gonna rob you,start taking your stuff an all you can do is call the cops. if you shoot or even brandish- you're in jail. this all left me feeling defenseless. I'd like to keep a 9mm with hallowpoints in my night stand. but don't want to go to jail if I immobilize a burglar,rapist,serial groper....etc

Stonewalker
04-20-2011, 3:30 PM
I'm a female that also lives alone and has wondered this same thing. there was a break in at my apartment complex and I have been wondering if someone broke in to my place at night- what do I do? someone told me that someone can come in an say I'm gonna rob you,start taking your stuff an all you can do is call the cops. if you shoot or even brandish- you're in jail. this all left me feeling defenseless. I'd like to keep a 9mm with hallowpoints in my night stand. but don't want to go to jail if I immobilize a burglar,rapist,serial groper....etc

For goodness sake there is a lot of disinformation out there - and bad info can get somebody killed. Review this thread. It has all the info you need.

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 3:32 PM
Thanks for the lit. California Liberal.

ap3572001
04-20-2011, 3:43 PM
You are sleeping.
You wake up to someone taking down Your door and enter the living room.....

DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO!

snobord99
04-20-2011, 3:50 PM
Those conditions do not apply in a home invasion. Under the law, if someone forcibly enters your home you are presumed to have reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI. Once they are inside, if you didn't let them in, shoot them.

If you don't know the law, please stop giving advice. Statements like this (aka, bad advice) will land someone in prison.

Serpentine
04-20-2011, 3:53 PM
Mother Nature's number one rule is self preservation. Mortals have no say in this whatsoever.


.

snobord99
04-20-2011, 3:54 PM
Thanks for the lit. California Liberal.

That was the best info given so far, but I think his highlight of the most relevant section should have extended an extra sentence.

GrizzlyGuy
04-20-2011, 4:25 PM
That was the best info given so far, but I think his highlight of the most relevant section should have extended an extra sentence.

Whoa, didn't you notice that I linked to one of your posts (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4838992#post4838992) way up in post #2? :p

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 4:27 PM
Thanks Snobord99.

snobord99
04-20-2011, 5:30 PM
Whoa, didn't you notice that I linked to one of your posts (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4838992#post4838992) way up in post #2? :p

Nope...didn't notice that lol.

Ok, I take back what I said, best advice given so far was in post #2 :D

Mesa Tactical
04-20-2011, 5:44 PM
Buy this book (http://www.gunlawpress.com/). It is available at your local gun store.

carsonwales
04-20-2011, 6:55 PM
I think the 870 is a mistake.

I would lock that up and keep it out of reach unless you want it for sound effect value...in that case make sure its unloaded and no ammunition is available.

The last thing you want is to come home and the creeps have already gained access and have that weapon...OR...they bust the door down and its on the other side of the floor layout...and they retreat to that location and find it.

Hauling a slide shotgun around your abode every time you move is not practical.

Holster your sidearm when home...keep it with you at all times.

Consider the "poor mans UCCW", and pack your pistol with you when you leave home. Saddle up just before you turn the key on your door when returning home, and clear your residence on entry.

I was burglarized recently...and I only went out for 2 hours...and I work at home on a computer. The crooks took an 870 and an HK pistol (flame me for not having them locked up)...

I am certain I interuppeted them, and I am certain they staked out the joint when I left..I still have another 870...but it stays locked up all the time.

Put that 870 away unless your religious about keeping it next to you while home, and more religious about locking it up when you leave.

Better off packing UCCW and just clearing your abode on arrival...and then making sure you wear that weapon when home...ALWAYS HAVE it holstered on your side if you live in a high crime area at home...period.

The last thing you want is the bad guy between you and your weapon on a limited floor plan...and your 870 is a liability not an asset.



Carson

Edit minor typos

The Machine
04-20-2011, 7:47 PM
Read 198.5 of the penal code and there's NOTHING in there about about verbal or non-verbal threats, NOTHING about opportunity, NOTHING about ability. You and I are LEGALLY PRESUMED to be in fear of loss of life or suffering great bodily harm when a person (not a member of the family or household) makes a forced entry into our domicile.

I left out the unnecessary parts.

I never said any of my original post was part of the law, I can see how you may have thought so. You are correct about the presumption of fear. I just think that fear is not the only part of this equation.

I believe in protecting my home. I also believe dead men tell no tales. However, if your attacker was shot in the back while heading out the door, that is not the kind of scene I want to have to explain to a jury.

In the OP's original post, the type of threat she describes seems to be limited to very grim options. This type of threat may not be turned off by the presence of guns. I don't think I need to explain further.

socal-shooter
04-20-2011, 7:51 PM
my gut tells me the op is not a female ;)

carry on

Scott Connors
04-20-2011, 8:00 PM
Two things that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned: get training on both the Remington and the Walther, and get tac lights for them--being able to identify what you're shooting is almost always a good thing. :)

Caladain
04-20-2011, 8:55 PM
870 makes a great bed gun. I seem to remember several products that will hang the gun on the side of the bed where the covers will hide it, but keep it close.

snobord99
04-20-2011, 9:13 PM
Pure gibberish. Read 198.5 of the penal code and there's NOTHING in there about about verbal or non-verbal threats, NOTHING about opportunity, NOTHING about ability. You and I are LEGALLY PRESUMED to be in fear of loss of life or suffering great bodily harm when a person (not a member of the family or household) makes a forced entry into our domicile. You don't have to do an interview to determine his intent, you don't have to check his ID, you don't have to determine that he's taken a bath in the last 90 days. You can open fire when you have determined that he made a forced entry. Don't muck it up with a bunch of stuff you may have heard from somebody who's uncle is going to law school in Arkansas.

You're both wrong (to an extent). You're right that 198.5 doesn't require you to prove what your attacker is thinking, but you're wrong that you can fire just because he made a forced entry. 198.5 doesn't change what's required of a self-defense claim; it only changes who has to prove what.

If the attack happens outside the house and you say "self-defense" you have to prove: 1) you had a reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury, 2) you reasonably believed the immediate use of deadly force was necessary, and 3) you used no more force than reasonably necessary to defend against the attack.

If the attack happens inside your house, under 198.5, what has changed is it is now up to the prosecution to prove: 1) you did not have a reasonable fear of death or GBI, 2) you didn't reasonably believe the immediate use of deadly force was necessary, or 3) you used more force than necessary to defend against the attack.

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 9:17 PM
my gut tells me the op is not a female ;)

carry on
ehem...I most certainly am a female.

L84CABO
04-20-2011, 9:20 PM
Buy this book (http://www.gunlawpress.com/). It is available at your local gun store.

+1 this is a good place to start

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 9:22 PM
Two things that I'm surprised nobody has mentioned: get training on both the Remington and the Walther, and get tac lights for them--being able to identify what you're shooting is almost always a good thing. :)

I have a tac-lite on the 870 but not for the Walther. I do shoot at the range with both. And Mr. 870 does sleep next to me. As for the weapon mounted lights, I really only want to use if I absolutely have to.

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 9:24 PM
Does anybody want to give their preferred shot shell for my above circumstances?

Falconis
04-20-2011, 9:53 PM
00 buck :)

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 9:57 PM
00 buck :)

goin' big huh

carsonwales
04-20-2011, 10:03 PM
870 makes a great bed gun. I seem to remember several products that will hang the gun on the side of the bed where the covers will hide it, but keep it close.

Long guns are horrible home defense weapons for two reasons:


1) they are not readily transportable for immediate personal and proximate use when carrying out day to day activity inside of a home

2) because of 1), they become potential weapons to invaders

Having a loaded long gun (or even a pistol) that is not secured to your person or secured by other means (lock box, safe, or secreted) is asking for disaster

A loaded long gun flopping around a home is disaster waiting to happen

DO NOT DO IT

THE only guns in your home, locked and loaded, should be the Gun in your holster and/or at your command...and the Gun the criminal might bring with him...An 870 is useless for home defense because its liabilities far out weigh its benefits.

Nobody gets up from their Television or the computer and goes to the Krapper and hauls their shot gun with them...

Carson

Falconis
04-20-2011, 10:03 PM
If I have to pull out my guns, no reason not to. People can survive and fight through bullet wounds.

BTW Big is a slug :D

Falconis
04-20-2011, 10:22 PM
I'll disagree with the statement. My shotgun is arranged optimally for home defense (granted all I did was attach a speedfeed 4 Short stock to it) and I've trained with it. I am planning on attaching ghost ring sights in the near future (when cash magincally appears in my hands) and probably a rail to attack an eotech just for fun (maybe another optic).

You can't plan for every situation for every second of the day, like sitting on the crapper, but I believe in preparing as much as possible. Some people I know keep their shotguns in the safe and break it out and place it by their bedside right before bedtime. Others I know keep a handgun close by at all times. Those with kids take other precautionary measures. My advice is to do what feels comfortable. Also taking a training class isn't a bad idea.

Also when taking the gun to and from your house in Oakland, my guess is try to keep the transportation of said firearms concealed as best as possible. Don't want to advertise to whoever is looking what you have.

Long guns are horrible home defense weapons for two reasons:


1) they are not readily transportable for immediate personal and proximate use when carrying out day to day activity inside of a home

2) because of 1), they become potential weapons to invaders

Having a loaded long gun (or even a pistol) that is not secured to your person or secured by other means (lock box, safe, or secreted) is asking for disaster

A loaded long gun flopping around a home is disaster waiting to happen

DO NOT DO IT

THE only guns in your home, locked and loaded, should be the Gun in your holster and/or at your command...and the Gun the criminal might bring with him...An 870 is useless for home defense because its liabilities far out weigh its benefits.

Nobody gets up from their Television or the computer and goes to the Krapper and hauls their shot gun with them...

Carson

N6ATF
04-20-2011, 10:29 PM
Lot of long gun haters. Yes it makes more sense to always have a sidearm on your person. But you should use it to fight your way to your rifle/shotgun. Once you get in your safe room or behind your safe, get the long gun ready to make the biggest hole with the least overpenetration, from behind cover and towards a fatal funnel.

scorpio66
04-20-2011, 11:10 PM
I am going to disagree with Carson as well. My 870 has a collapsible stock with the shorter barrel and manuevers pretty well around the corners of my house. Have practiced with it around my home and can get around pretty good in the dark. However, that is why I have the Walther as well. Oh and Falconis...I have me some slugs. I'm using #1 buck as my choice.

Falconis
04-20-2011, 11:16 PM
Cool, whatever you're comfortable with :). Obviously you won't use slugs in your home unless you hear a lot of pinging and the guy isnt dropping, but that's an unlikely scenario and I just bring it up for giggles.

As far as your decision making abilities, why ohh why did you move to Oakland to begin with? ... lol

blakdawg
04-20-2011, 11:18 PM
00 or 000 buckshot. I like this - http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-low-recoil-8-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot - the recoil is somewhat reduced which makes it easier to practice and easier to get the gun back on target for multiple shots.

If you're a newbie to shotguns, give some serious consideration to taking a class re defensive shotgun use. A shotgun is a great home defense weapon but can be unpleasant and difficult to shoot without some coaching as to the best way to hold/use it.

spdtiger
04-20-2011, 11:43 PM
Ok so I'm going to pitch a curve ball here what if someone is on your property trying to break in your car that is on your drive way, he lunges at you with his screwdriver that he was using to pick the ignition lock on your car and you shoot him with an AW AK that is not preban but you have old clips that you use, so you normally use a Kydex grip rap at the range to use the clips, and at that moment to defend yourself, and you took off your kydex grip rap due to it being in the way as well as fearing for your life are you still justified?

Falconis
04-21-2011, 12:09 AM
on what part? ... lol Not a lawyer or judge here, I think you're screwed since you had time to take off a piece of your gun cause what was making it legal was in the way. Basically cause you had time to alter your firearm, I don't think an argument of I was in imminent fear for my life is gonna cut it.

Ehhh I need to get to sleep.

snobord99
04-21-2011, 12:37 AM
Ok so I'm going to pitch a curve ball here what if someone is on your property trying to break in your car that is on your drive way, he lunges at you with his screwdriver that he was using to pick the ignition lock on your car and you shoot him with an AW AK that is not preban but you have old clips that you use, so you normally use a Kydex grip rap at the range to use the clips, and at that moment to defend yourself, and you took off your kydex grip rap due to it being in the way as well as fearing for your life are you still justified?

I'm pretty sure that if you're using "clips" for your AR or AK, you're SOL anyways because the firearms wouldn't function with a clip. ;)

I assume you mean magazines, so I'll address this assuming you meant magazines. You'll be fine as far as self-defense goes. You may be charged with being in possession of an assault weapon, but your self-defense claim should be fine. As far as self-defense goes, the law doesn't limit what you can and cannot use, it just sets the conditions under which you can defend yourself; once you have those conditions, the law won't care if you're using an AR or a dildo.

Falconis does bring up a valid point that if it takes you a long time to remove that Kydex grip wrap, then it is conceivable that you weren't in immediate danger and the self-defense would fail. I'm confident that if you said it took you 15 minutes to remove the grip to get the shot off, the result in court would be VERY different than if it took you one second.

haole_50
04-21-2011, 6:04 AM
197.3 states "a servant of the person" - would that mean that my dog is my servant "to protect" and I have the legal right to defend them from harm also?

cdtx2001
04-21-2011, 6:42 AM
Use your handgun to fight your way to your long gun if needed. Your shotgun is most effective in the house but not as easy to carry around. If you're watching TV in the living room and your shotgun is next to the bed when the bad guys come, your handgun will get you to it. If crime is that bad in your neighborhood, keep the Walther close by you while you're moving about the house.

Use a good quality and reliable hollow point in your handgun, don't go cheap.

As for shotgun loads, #8 shot in close quarters is ideal. You're not going to tear through 4 walls and through your neighbor's house if you miss. Also, in close quarters #8 shot WILL do some significant damage to the target. #8 WILL shoot through a door effectively AND hit the target behind, but WON'T got through the wall behind it and do further damage.

Here's a video from the Army, it's old but still full of useful info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxnoirnaQdY

The military used #9 shot for close range, 00 buck for medium range, and slugs for longer range.

As others have said...

If someone breaks into your house while you are there, that is a clear threat to you and your safety.

If you must use your firearm to stop a threat, do only that, stop the threat. Once the threat is stopped, you must stop. In other words, don't reload and shoot the ***** some more once they're on the floor and dying. There's a store clerk in the midwest going to jail because he shot a would be robber, but then shot him several more times when the robber was on the floor.

If an intruder turns to flee when you confront them you cannot shoot them because the threat is over.

When the police come, tell them only that you were in great fear of your life and had to stop the threat. Also, you're very shaken up (and you will be) and will be happy to give a statement after you have calmed down in 24 hours. TALK TO A LAWYER!!!!! This cannot be stressed enough, you will need one and is purely for your protection from prosecution. Don't tell the police why you had the gun or how you prepared just in case.

Here's a great video to watch in terms of talking to the police:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

javalos
04-21-2011, 6:59 AM
Let me congratulate you on your choice of self-defense...the shotgun, best home defense arm there is in my opinion. Self-defense in this state comes with rules that you should be familiar with. What happens and how a self-defense situation is handled depends on the DA and what you. So long as you don't shoot a bad guy in the back, go after them, or shoot them outside your domicile, it look better on you. In my opinion, anyone that breaks into your homestead forfeits their right to live, but that's not the way it is in this crazy state. If you ever have to shoot anyone because you feared for your life, shut your mouth, and get an attorney, police will not like you not saying a dang word to them, but you have the right not to say anything because anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law, they even tell you that. Just tell them: "I will cooperate under the direction of my attorney" and that's it. That statement says it all.

J.D.Allen
04-21-2011, 7:17 AM
You're both wrong (to an extent). You're right that 198.5 doesn't require you to prove what your attacker is thinking, but you're wrong that you can fire just because he made a forced entry. 198.5 doesn't change what's required of a self-defense claim; it only changes who has to prove what.

If the attack happens outside the house and you say "self-defense" you have to prove: 1) you had a reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury, 2) you reasonably believed the immediate use of deadly force was necessary, and 3) you used no more force than reasonably necessary to defend against the attack.

If the attack happens inside your house, under 198.5, what has changed is it is now up to the prosecution to prove: 1) you did not have a reasonable fear of death or GBI, 2) you didn't reasonably believe the immediate use of deadly force was necessary, or 3) you used more force than necessary to defend against the attack.

I'm unclear how this changes what I said. IANAL but I do have some understanding of how criminal law works. The above seems to affect what happens AFTER the incident, not what you should do DURING the incident.

I don't know about you but if someone kicks in my door or crawls in my window I don't like the idea of giving him the extra time of asking him what he's up to...

I said shoot them if they come in your house. The law says in that situation you have the PRESUMPTION of reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI. I do know that in a trial the word presumption is a pretty strong word. Pray tell how I am wrong on this?

sandman21
04-21-2011, 7:26 AM
I'm unclear how this changes what I said. IANAL but I do have some understanding of how criminal law works. The above seems to affect what happens AFTER the incident, not what you should do DURING the incident.

I don't know about you but if someone kicks in my door or crawls in my window I don't like the idea of giving him the extra time of asking him what he's up to...

I said shoot them if they come in your house. The law says in that situation you have the PRESUMPTION of reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI. I do know that in a trial the word presumption is a pretty strong word. Pray tell how I am wrong on this?

CPC 198.5 is not an automatic pass for shooting someone entering anywhere. Simply put itís innocent until proven guilty in the penal code.


...When these do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm, as they could not if defendant apprehended only a misdemeanor assault, there is no cause for the exaction of a human life."......However, in view of the wide scope of burglary under Penal Code section 459, as compared with the common law definition of that offense, in our opinion it cannot be said that under all circumstances burglary under section 459 constitutes a forcible and atrocious crime....

....Where the character and manner of the burglary do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm, there is no cause for exaction of human life, or for the use of deadly force. The character and manner of the burglary could not reasonably create such a fear unless the burglary threatened, or was reasonably believed to threaten, death or serious bodily harm...... (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4905950755229562562&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholar)

Serpentine
04-21-2011, 8:05 AM
If you're a newbie to shotguns, give some serious consideration to taking a class re defensive shotgun use. A shotgun is a great home defense weapon but can be unpleasant and difficult to shoot without some coaching as to the best way to hold/use it.

+1 Great advice.

.

Bullcoop
04-21-2011, 8:12 AM
To me there isn't anything truer than a cliche'. That said,

"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six"

Too simplistic? Not from my point of veiw.
BC

Oh and Carson imho the only "liability" w/a shotgun is not having one at all. If I have to choose between facing down an intruder/attacker with an 870 or my pillow, I'm gonna go with the 870. As long as you follow the proper procedure and practice a lot, a shotty is no more likely to be used against you than a .45.
To me in this case it's not "having the proper tool to do a proper job" it's "knowing how to use the tool you do have properly".

snobord99
04-21-2011, 1:09 PM
I'm unclear how this changes what I said. IANAL but I do have some understanding of how criminal law works. The above seems to affect what happens AFTER the incident, not what you should do DURING the incident.

I don't know about you but if someone kicks in my door or crawls in my window I don't like the idea of giving him the extra time of asking him what he's up to...

I said shoot them if they come in your house. The law says in that situation you have the PRESUMPTION of reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI. I do know that in a trial the word presumption is a pretty strong word. Pray tell how I am wrong on this?

The only specific part I really took issue with in the post I was responding to was where you said "[y]ou can open fire when you have determined that he made a forced entry." In light of the rest of your post and this particular statement, I took it that you were trying to say "if someone breaks in, green light to shoot so don't worry about it."

The point I'm trying to make is that someone breaking into your house doesn't change the fact that there has to be 1) a reasonable fear, 2) a reasonable belief that the use of force was necessary, and 3) no more force used than necessary; it only changes who has to prove what. My impression from your post was that you're saying "don't worry about 1), 2), or 3) because they're in you're house" and that is simply inaccurate.

Hope that clears it up.

J.D.Allen
04-21-2011, 1:41 PM
CPC 198.5 is not an automatic pass for shooting someone entering anywhere. Simply put it’s innocent until proven guilty in the penal code.


...When these do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm, as they could not if defendant apprehended only a misdemeanor assault, there is no cause for the exaction of a human life."......However, in view of the wide scope of burglary under Penal Code section 459, as compared with the common law definition of that offense, in our opinion it cannot be said that under all circumstances burglary under section 459 constitutes a forcible and atrocious crime....

....Where the character and manner of the burglary do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm, there is no cause for exaction of human life, or for the use of deadly force. The character and manner of the burglary could not reasonably create such a fear unless the burglary threatened, or was reasonably believed to threaten, death or serious bodily harm...... (http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=4905950755229562562&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholar)
Ah yes. Good ol' case law to the rescue. So they basically just said the opposite of what the penal code says. PC says presumption, Court says no presumption. That clarifies things :rolleyes:

The only specific part I really took issue with in the post I was responding to was where you said "[y]ou can open fire when you have determined that he made a forced entry." In light of the rest of your post and this particular statement, I took it that you were trying to say "if someone breaks in, green light to shoot so don't worry about it."

The point I'm trying to make is that someone breaking into your house doesn't change the fact that there has to be 1) a reasonable fear, 2) a reasonable belief that the use of force was necessary, and 3) no more force used than necessary; it only changes who has to prove what. My impression from your post was that you're saying "don't worry about 1), 2), or 3) because they're in you're house" and that is simply inaccurate.

Hope that clears it up.

Yeah it does thanks, what I was saying was "shoot". What I was not saying was "shoot and then don't worry about what you say to the cops afterward because it doesn't matter". But I can see how it may come across like that.

One more reason to live in a state with a REAL castle doctrine...

Anyway I doubt this would really apply in the situation the OP is describing. Multiple males kicking in the rear door of a female who lives alone...gonna be pretty hard for the prosecutor to say she didn't have reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI in that situation.

Maestro Pistolero
04-21-2011, 2:02 PM
An attack by more than one person in your home is way over the hurdle of there being a disparity of force. Any intruder, in the middle of the night, or when the house is dark, is sufficient to cause a reasonable person to fear for their life. You can't know what some one has in their hand in the dark, and it reasonable to assume a burglar has bad intentions.

You can't beat a shotgun for taking up a defensive position in a house. But to move through a house, it is much easier to practice good weapon retention technique with a handgun. (But also harder to shoot under stress).

The key is always training. When you train, train like your life is under an immediate threat. See how fast you can engage multiple targets, inducing time constraints to simulate stress. Shoot as fast as you can do so safely.

If can't do it under controlled conditions, it is doubtful how effective you can be under extreme stress while you're half asleep.

TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN, until you could deploy that 870 in your sleep, because that's what you are going to have to do.

Don't worry about what happens after you save your life. At least you'll still have a life. Victims of real home invasions have a strong presumption of innocence. Even in CA.

SixtyDashOne
04-21-2011, 2:11 PM
Does anybody want to give their preferred shot shell for my above circumstances?

Low-recoil 00 buck is the way to go imo. I've used both brands below and they both work well with my 870. I keep the mag tube full, empty chamber.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-low-recoil-8-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-ga-winchester-ranger-low-recoil-9-pellet-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

Serpentine
04-21-2011, 2:28 PM
An attack by more than one person in your home is way over the hurdle of there being a disparity of force. Any intruder, in the middle of the night, or when the house is dark, is sufficient to cause a reasonable person to fear for their life. You can't know what some one has in their hand in the dark, and it reasonable to assume a burglar has bad intentions.

You can't beat a shotgun for taking up a defensive position in a house. But to move through a house, it is much easier to practice good weapon retention technique with a handgun. (But also harder to shoot under stress).

The key is always training. When you train, train like your life is under an immediate threat. See how fast you can engage multiple targets, inducing time constraints to simulate stress. Shoot as fast as you can do so safely.

If can't do it under controlled conditions, it is doubtful how effective you can be under extreme stress while you're half asleep.

TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN, until you could deploy that 870 in your sleep, because that's what you are going to have to do.

Don't worry about what happens after you save your life. At least you'll still have a life. Victims of real home invasions have a strong presumption of innocence. Even in CA.

Good stuff, well said, but for one correction. Most home invasion robberies happen during the daylight hours, so all your excellent advice applies 24/7.

.

Maestro Pistolero
04-21-2011, 2:40 PM
Good stuff, well said, but for one correction. Most home invasion robberies happen during the daylight hours, so all your excellent advice applies 24/7.Agreed, and thanks.

Serpentine
04-21-2011, 2:42 PM
Low-recoil 00 buck is the way to go imo. I've used both brands below and they both work well with my 870. I keep the mag tube full, empty chamber.

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-ga-federal-le-tactical-low-recoil-8-pell-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/pName/250rds-12-ga-winchester-ranger-low-recoil-9-pellet-oo-buck/cName/12-gauge-2-34-buckshot

I use 3" turkey loads, followed by 00 buck, with slugs on the side carrier.

Anything from #8 shot to 00 Buck within an average home is going to work very well. Use slugs for going through cover, but be aware that a slug can go through walls and still bounce down the street some 250 lethal yards.

A doctor friend once told me that a solid upper chest hit by a multiple pellet shotgun shell is lethal - even if the bad guy is hit while laying on an operating table with a top shelf emergency surgical team standing by.

Professional training is absolutely the #1 essential. Know how your shotgun works, loads and unloads, how to clear jambs, how to identify friend or foe, and how it patterns with different loads, at applicable range.

Then, know what the law says, and if an unfortunate event occurs, don't say one word before you consult with your attorney.

.

J.D.Allen
04-21-2011, 2:47 PM
These guys seem to think #1 Buck is the best. Followed by 00 buck if that's not available (it's hard to find). They also reccomend plated or hardened shot.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#SHOTGUN AMMUNITION

Here's another good one http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

snobord99
04-21-2011, 3:00 PM
Yeah it does thanks, what I was saying was "shoot". What I was not saying was "shoot and then don't worry about what you say to the cops afterward because it doesn't matter". But I can see how it may come across like that.

One more reason to live in a state with a REAL castle doctrine...

Anyway I doubt this would really apply in the situation the OP is describing. Multiple males kicking in the rear door of a female who lives alone...gonna be pretty hard for the prosecutor to say she didn't have reasonable fear of imminent death or GBI in that situation.

Trust me, we have a pretty good castle doctrine already. A presumption in criminal court is pretty much as much as you can ask for. I don't really know the laws of other states, but based on my knowledge of general criminal law, few other states would give you anything more than a presumption if you get even that.

As to OP's situation, you're right, odds are she'll be OK. I just want people to keep in mind that even under the most obvious cases of self-defense, the results in court could be very different if the robber has entry wounds in his back instead of in the front of their body.

Jack L
04-21-2011, 3:30 PM
Long guns are horrible home defense weapons for two reasons:


1) they are not readily transportable for immediate personal and proximate use when carrying out day to day activity inside of a home

2) because of 1), they become potential weapons to invaders

Having a loaded long gun (or even a pistol) that is not secured to your person or secured by other means (lock box, safe, or secreted) is asking for disaster

A loaded long gun flopping around a home is disaster waiting to happen

DO NOT DO IT

THE only guns in your home, locked and loaded, should be the Gun in your holster and/or at your command...and the Gun the criminal might bring with him...An 870 is useless for home defense because its liabilities far out weigh its benefits.

Nobody gets up from their Television or the computer and goes to the Krapper and hauls their shot gun with them...

Carson


Good points.

It is possible to have a 870 in a location that is hidden to intruders or children yet accessible for the owner. Quick release wall locks are available. Same goes for handguns. But as you pointed out, it's needs to be a science, not a haphazard way of stashing your firearms. One needs to think it out and practice retrieving the firearm in a safe and timely fashion.

I have motion lights and a dog and keep my doors locked 24/7 except for going in or out. Call me paranoid but that gives me time to be armed and ready if the situation arises. No children live here. 00 buck can go through my walls and no worry about the neighbors who are 20 acres from here. My wife knows the drill. I'm out here on a ranch. If someone comes out to a ranch to break in, it would be a battle for survival since LE is at least 30 minutes away on a good day. I take it serious and it's on my mind daily ever since a mentally ill man shot and killed to women on another ranch not all that far from my location. I carry a Glock 27 while out working on my place.

The Boy Scout motto; 'Be Prepared'.

J.D.Allen
04-21-2011, 3:35 PM
Trust me, we have a pretty good castle doctrine already. A presumption in criminal court is pretty much as much as you can ask for. I don't really know the laws of other states, but based on my knowledge of general criminal law, few other states would give you anything more than a presumption if you get even that.

As to OP's situation, you're right, odds are she'll be OK. I just want people to keep in mind that even under the most obvious cases of self-defense, the results in court could be very different if the robber has entry wounds in his back instead of in the front of their body.

I guess I'm referring to the application of the law. In some states you would never be arrested or charged with anything for shooting someone on your own property, probably not even questioned about it unless was like someone you knew or something.

snobord99
04-21-2011, 4:24 PM
I guess I'm referring to the application of the law. In some states you would never be arrested or charged with anything for shooting someone on your own property, probably not even questioned about it unless was like someone you knew or something.

I think you're underestimating our (criminal) castle doctrine here. It's actually extremely uncommon here for someone to be charged with shooting an intruder in their own home; I actually don't know of a single case. All the cases where someone is prosecuted for shooting an intruder has been outside the walls of the house (e.g., shooting the "intruder" when they're in the driveway or something) and plenty of people have been charged in other states for shootings on their property but outside the actual wall of the house (even in TX).

I just want people to be aware that the fact that it is uncommon is not an indication that it can't happen as A LOT of people assume it can't happen because it's so uncommon. :)

scorpio66
04-21-2011, 5:27 PM
These guys seem to think #1 Buck is the best. Followed by 00 buck if that's not available (it's hard to find). They also reccomend plated or hardened shot.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#SHOTGUN AMMUNITION

Here's another good one http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Hey J.D., I've read that article and like to use #1 when I can find it based on the literature. Thanks

scorpio66
04-21-2011, 5:41 PM
Thank you for all of your posts. I love this site and it makes me feel better that I can go to a forum like this for lots of great info. You all have given me more than enough to feel well informed and prepared. I've had the Walter for about 7 years and the 870 for about 5 months now and my training and preparation is getting better all the time. I am a member of a neighborhood list serve that tells me everything that is going on in our neighborhood through a yahoo group. Some good stuff and some bad stuff and I am always reading about robberies and home invasions and other stuff like the one thing that I mentioned in my original post that happened earlier this week.

On another tip, I do need a holster for the Walther P99 and a smaller safe that doesn't take up a lot of room. Maybe one that can be installed in a closet hidden - any advice on those two?

Thanks again :kiss:

Kid Stanislaus
04-21-2011, 6:16 PM
These guys seem to think #1 Buck is the best. Followed by 00 buck if that's not available (it's hard to find). They also reccomend plated or hardened shot. http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#SHOTGUN AMMUNITION Here's another good one http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Masaad Ayoob is another fan of the #1 shot. That's how I'm loaded.

ClickClickBoom
04-21-2011, 6:30 PM
Surefire M4, 12" Bowie knife next to the bed. Bedroom entrance is a fatal funnel, by design. 21foot rule will dictate the outcome.
Eric
P.S.Google Lt Col Dave Grossman, and buy On Killing, and On Combat. Will is everything.

http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/

krag98
04-21-2011, 9:13 PM
Scorpio,

For your back door, or front one, you could get heavy steel brackets from a hardware store that will hold a 2x4 or 2x6 horizontally across the door. These brackets are screwed into the door jamb framing with 1/2" dia. x 3" long lag screws, 2 or 3 lags per bracket. It would be easier to cut through the side of the house with a chain saw than kick or ram a door secured in this way.

scorpio66
04-21-2011, 11:13 PM
Scorpio,

For your back door, or front one, you could get heavy steel brackets from a hardware store that will hold a 2x4 or 2x6 horizontally across the door. These brackets are screwed into the door jamb framing with 1/2" dia. x 3" long lag screws, 2 or 3 lags per bracket. It would be easier to cut through the side of the house with a chain saw than kick or ram a door secured in this way.
OMG...Krag98 that is so funny because I was just looking online for door security bars and came across the Bulldog security bar pretty much the same thing your describing as a do it yourself. Here are the links: http://svnbusinessconsulting.com/tkt/the-workings-of-the-bulldog-security-bar, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmT9xCdWAjk. Not sure how much they cost but I'm definitely going to do this. Thanks for the DIY info...I'm pretty handy too as I am a union electrician.:kiss:

Falconis
04-22-2011, 12:00 AM
Plenty of wall safes and drawer safes out there. as for your holster, as cheap and tempting as online purchases are, gotta try them to see what you like.

Thank you for all of your posts. I love this site and it makes me feel better that I can go to a forum like this for lots of great info. You all have given me more than enough to feel well informed and prepared. I've had the Walter for about 7 years and the 870 for about 5 months now and my training and preparation is getting better all the time. I am a member of a neighborhood list serve that tells me everything that is going on in our neighborhood through a yahoo group. Some good stuff and some bad stuff and I am always reading about robberies and home invasions and other stuff like the one thing that I mentioned in my original post that happened earlier this week.

On another tip, I do need a holster for the Walther P99 and a smaller safe that doesn't take up a lot of room. Maybe one that can be installed in a closet hidden - any advice on those two?

Thanks again :kiss:

ALSystems
04-22-2011, 6:47 AM
I think you're underestimating our (criminal) castle doctrine here. It's actually extremely uncommon here for someone to be charged with shooting an intruder in their own home.
It is however not uncommon to be sued in civil court by the intruder. This is the area where California's castle laws are very weak. Other states have laws that prevent this after the shooting has been ruled justified self defense.

You might look at this link as insurrance: http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/

Caladain
04-22-2011, 6:56 AM
Scorpio,

For your back door, or front one, you could get heavy steel brackets from a hardware store that will hold a 2x4 or 2x6 horizontally across the door. These brackets are screwed into the door jamb framing with 1/2" dia. x 3" long lag screws, 2 or 3 lags per bracket. It would be easier to cut through the side of the house with a chain saw than kick or ram a door secured in this way.

Who said they were coming in via the door?

I assume you have windows somewhere on your house? Glass is much easier to get through, and it can be done fairly quiet too.

scorpio66
04-22-2011, 9:34 PM
Who said they were coming in via the door?

I assume you have windows somewhere on your house? Glass is much easier to get through, and it can be done fairly quiet too.

Not when you have bars on them. ;)

Falconis
04-22-2011, 10:02 PM
I ask, why Oakland of all places to move to? :)

scorpio66
04-22-2011, 10:47 PM
I ask, why Oakland of all places to move to? :)

I've lived in the the East bay area all of my life. I am planning on moving in the near future though.

Falconis
04-23-2011, 3:37 AM
Well I've pretty much lived in the Bay Area all my life. After all the years of watching KTVU news, I thought avoiding Oakland for the purposes of residency was the idea.

I kid, kinda. Hope you're able to move out soon though.