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Toolbox X
11-17-2006, 5:47 PM
It has taken 11 months of development, thousands of dollars and uncountable hours to design. And I had to create a business on top of it all. I have been looking forward to this day for a long time.

This is the U-15 rifle stock.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Rifle-M4.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Rifle-LongRange.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Rifle-A1.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15RiflesGroupPicture.jpg

It is about time we were able to use detachable magazines.

Toolbox X
11-17-2006, 5:47 PM
I have just created a small business called California Rifles to sell U-15 stocks. They will be available from my website which will be up very soon. www.CaliforniaRifles.com or CARifles.com

The U-15 stock will attach to any AR-15 style receiver. The only special requirements are the use of a CAR buffer and buffer spring.

I designed the U-15 stock with incredible attention paid to the California assault weapon laws.

The U-15 stock is mated to a aluminum bracket. The bracket attaches to the receiver using the same socket head cap screw used by the pistol grip.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Stock-BracketClose-Up.jpg

As you can see in the picture, the U-15 bracket is exposed along the top front of the stock. The top of the bracket is higher than the top of the exposed portion of the trigger. This makes it impossible to get the web of your hand lower that the top of the exposed trigger.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Stock-TopView.jpg

The U-15 stock uses a traditional rifle stock grip. I was heavily influenced by the grip of the M1 Garand. There are no holes in the stock so there is no way it can be called a thumbhole stock.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Stock-SideView.jpg

The U-15 receiver extension is a special version used for AR-15 pistols. It is special because it works with a receiver plate which retains the take down pin spring and detent. The receiver extension is covered with an ACE foam tube. (My shipment of foam tubes is the only thing I am missing which is why 2 of the 3 rifles in the picture are missing the foam tubes.)

The dimensions and contours of the AR-15 A2 stock were used in the design of the U-15 stock. The length of the stock, the shape of the recoil pad and the angle of the butt are exactly the same as the A2 stock. The recoil pad is made by John Masen.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Stock-RecoilPad.jpg

The U-15 stock is painted with a black textured epoxy paint that is impervious to water and scratches. Though it doesn't look like it, the stock itself is made from beechwood which is very hard. It is extremely solid and sturdier than the A2 stock. The connection the stock makes to the receiver is so strong, should you ever need to butt whip someone with the U-15 stock you will not have to worry about damaging the rifle.

A little history...

Though I am frustrated and constantly infuriated by California lawmakers, I am still a Californian. This is where my family is and where my home is. I am the 4th generation of my family born here and my wife and I just gave birth to two 5th generation Californians. We love California and we're not going to leave.

I just needed to get creative.

I love to shoot and a year ago I just got fed up with the Kel-Tec SU-16 and fixed mag AR-15's. I wanted to shoot an AR. I wanted to be able to use all of the AR uppers and accessories. I wanted the reliability of the AR.

It took a crazy amount of time, research and experimenting, but I finally came up with the idea of U-15 stock.

I designed and redesigned the stock over and over. My first stocks were made from dense foam. In January I used a sawzall and a dremel to make my first stock out of a redwood 2x6. That was the point where I realized I could go no further on my own. I needed the help of a professional. And that's when I stumbled up Matt Shuster of Ironwood Designs (http://www.ironwooddesigns.com)

Matt is famous in the wood gunstock world, especially AK stocks and handguards. His quality is second to none.

I setup a meeting with Matt at his shop and brought him my wood prototype attached to a rifle. I'll never forget his response. After 30 seconds of just staring in silence with eyes glazed over he says, "We can do this."

It took 9 months of designing, prototyping, testing, and redesigning to finally produce the final shape. We burned through 6 more prototypes during development. It was a monster task designing the grip to be comfortable, ambidextrous, and positioned in a CA compliant way. It stopped being fun rather quickly. But after 9 months of design work the grip is even more comfortable than I thought possible.

All of the stocks are manufactured using a CNC machine and a computer, so they are precision perfect. All design work had to be done three dimensionally on a computer.

The price of the stock is $185. That includes the stock, recoil pad and bracket pre-assembled. It also includes the pistol receiver extension, buffer spring, buffer, and ACE foam tube to cover the extension. (You are on your own putting that foam tube on.) To complete the rifle you need only to install a trigger kit in the receiver and attach an upper receiver.

My development and production costs were tremendous for a guy like me. My goal is not to make a lot of money. In fact originally I only intended to make the stocks for my friends and I. But I want Californians to be able to shoot their AR style rifles like they are supposed to be shot. With detachable magazines. So I threw down a huge pile of cash and manufactured these stocks.

I really want to get the price down. Like I said, I did this for you guys, my fellow California shooters. If the stocks sell well I will do everything I can to lower the price as much as possible. I hope you guys like them.


Matt from Ironwood Designs and I are going to be at the Costa Mesa gun show next weekend, Nov 25th and 26th. Our tables are going to be next to one another so search for California Rifles and Ironwood Designs. I will post our exact location ASAP.

Come to the show and try out the stock! I know they look pretty crazy at first, but as soon as you shoulder a rifle sporting the U-15 stock you are going to be impressed.

-Grant
CARifles@gmail.com

grammaton76
11-17-2006, 5:51 PM
Ok, I'm officially impressed. Nice look!

DRH
11-17-2006, 5:53 PM
OUTSTANDING!!! I am thinking they might start typing on that list.:D

Jicko
11-17-2006, 5:54 PM
I am impressed too....

But $185 is just a little to the pricy side, I understood all the WORK he had put into it.... but when price is NOT right... it would be hard for it to take off!

Shane916
11-17-2006, 5:57 PM
Ohh your in Sac too! I want to see one of these in person! :)

PLINK
11-17-2006, 5:57 PM
Did you happen to send an example to the DOJ for approval? I am pretty sure if you did you probably didn't get a response or it is left up to the 58 DA's to determine it's legal or not. I like it. It's another option.

Fjold
11-17-2006, 6:02 PM
I like it, it's certainly going to give some state employees a big headache.

I don't consider $185 unreasonable at all considering all that it includes.

Hunter
11-17-2006, 6:02 PM
The icing on the cake would be to get the DOJ to reply in writing to you that they do not consider the use of this stock to be a pistol grip. I know it isn't but to get that letter would be great for business. On any other rifle there wouldn't be a second thought on the matter, but with OLL they always seem to look at them differently.

BigMac
11-17-2006, 6:04 PM
Dude, thats so much better than some of the other options i've seen.

I hope you do REALLY well. I'll drop you an e-mail from the shop about putting one on the shelf to show it off for you.

cornholio1
11-17-2006, 6:04 PM
My honestly opinion is.. me no like. but thats just me. I've never been a YES man.

JS-M1A
11-17-2006, 6:09 PM
Nice :) If you could get a DOJ approved letter that would be sweet.

M14Gunman
11-17-2006, 6:09 PM
Good idea... let me inform you from experience.... PATENT IT... or at least get the process started.... it will cost a lot but you could make millions off this thing. If OLL continue to propogate over the next several years that is by far the best alternative out there.

docsmileyface
11-17-2006, 6:10 PM
Only thing it needs is some sort of cheek-rest for the buffertube, eye relief seems kinda un-ergonomic.

blacklisted
11-17-2006, 6:14 PM
Yes! :D :D :D :D

Joe
11-17-2006, 6:15 PM
I am impressed too....

But $185 is just a little to the pricy side, I understood all the WORK he had put into it.... but when price is NOT right... it would be hard for it to take off!

I don't think the price is that high... People spend nearly the same amount on Vltor stocks

That being said, it IS out of my price range.

SemiAutoSam
11-17-2006, 6:16 PM
There is nothing like another option Please keep the board posted on the websites development and what the pricing will be on this item.

You might also consider a poll to see what the traffic will bear.

Also as has been said in the past a letter from DOJ giving their approval of your stock would be a plus.

ARRRR-15
11-17-2006, 6:18 PM
Good idea... let me inform you from experience.... PATENT IT... or at least get the process started.... it will cost a lot but you could make millions off this thing. If OLL continue to propogate over the next several years that is by far the best alternative out there.

Too late I already had a prototype of my own made and I'm pumping out copies in china.:D j/k

No really, that is a good design. I was just thinking of something like this about a week ago. A cheek rest would be a good idea though.

grammaton76
11-17-2006, 6:20 PM
The comment the other guy had about the "right price" does hold some ground. If it's possible for you to put out a synthetic version for less, you'll probably get a lot more volume on those.

blacklisted
11-17-2006, 6:20 PM
You should post this on the AR15.com CA Home Town forum.

five.five-six
11-17-2006, 6:26 PM
I am impressed too....

But $185 is just a little to the pricy side, I understood all the WORK he had put into it.... but when price is NOT right... it would be hard for it to take off!


err a socom 4 is more than that and you still can not drop your mag

any plans on making one for a full sized buffertube? I hav an ar-10 begging for one of these and the car buffer is around $100 extra

Nefarious
11-17-2006, 6:27 PM
im 50/50 on this one.. the stock looks nice... but the damn tube sticking out just seems funky. I would probably buy one, depending on final price

Charliegone
11-17-2006, 6:27 PM
Wow not bad at all, for those of us who still have some lowers not built, this a much better alternative.:D

Toolbox X
11-17-2006, 6:28 PM
Whenever something is legit the DOJ says they have no authority. I am submitting a stock to them just for fun anyway though. You guys are right, getting DOJ approval would be the holy grail for me. However, the hard truth is the DOJ will never approve anything that is pro-gun like this.

The only way to beat the DOJ strategy of not approving anything is for my stock to build up more and more credibility as being legit by more and more people shooting them. That is how OLL's became legit when the DOJ did everything they could to try and scare people into not buying or transfering them last November and December.

I've been in the process of patenting it for a while now. Patent attorney and all. I've worked too hard to let someone steal my design. Thanks for the concern.

Resting your cheek on the foam pad is very comfortable. It's just like the ACE stocks in that regard.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I've put my heart and soul into this thing.

The sound your magazine makes as you push the mag release button......it's so sweet.

TonyNorCal
11-17-2006, 6:31 PM
Toolbox,

Very nicely done! It looks ergonomically friendly.

You are to be rightly commended for your efforts.

And, I for one really dig the look. It's unique, but in a good way. Almost a 'what is that' vibe.

Thanks for doing it.

Ironwood Designs
11-17-2006, 6:37 PM
Het guys,
Matt from Ironwood Designs here. Grant just let me know that he posted the new U-15 stock here on Cal Guns. I am very excited for him, as we both put a lot of time and energy into producing this stock. The first run does always costs more. Make no mistake, these units are quality pieces, inside and out, I know, because I was responsible for the final design and the complete manufacturing of the stock.

Just wanted to make a few comments regarding some of the other comments.

Regarding the cheek rest assumptions. When we put together the first few units, yesterday afternoon, and shouldered them, there was no surprise.
What I am trying to say is that they feel natural and comfortable. There is no "huh" somethings feel odd. They saddle right up, with no discomfort in the grip area, or with the cheek piece. If anything, thay are vastly more comforable on the face, than a std. A2 stock. There is plenty of room for eye relief face movement.

I have been designing and manufacturing gun stocks for nearly 15 years, so I know a little about rifle ergonomics. I'll tell you this straight up, it fits and feels good, plain and simple.

Anyway, I'll let you guys get back to your thought and comments.
Another reminder, if you are in the So-Cal area, please come by and see us
at the Coata Mesa Gun Show, Nov 26-26

Hope to see you there.

Thanks,
Matt
www.Ironwooddesigns.com

EDITED TO FIX URL

damon1272
11-17-2006, 6:37 PM
Good work! Nice alternative to some of the other products on the market. Although it makes the rifle look totally different it still looks good.:D :D

M14Gunman
11-17-2006, 6:42 PM
I'll tell you this straight up, it fits and feels good, plain and simple.

We all thank you for your truely unbiased opinion... ;)

P.S.
Your website is http://www.ironwooddesigns.com .... not ironwoddesigns... :)

donger
11-17-2006, 6:46 PM
The comment the other guy had about the "right price" does hold some ground. If it's possible for you to put out a synthetic version for less, you'll probably get a lot more volume on those.


You shouldn't compare the price of a start-up company's product to RRA's A2 buttstock. Think of the startup costs and the sheer volume of products that must be manufactured and sold to break even. After the stock starts selling expect the product's price to drop.

Also, it's likely, unless I'm totally off, that even a synthetic stock would be in the same price range.

Grant and Matt, nice job.

KimoBBZ
11-17-2006, 6:55 PM
I've got a a few lowers unbuilt... this stock is a welcome find... hmmm which upper setup to go with... decisions, decisions... :)

grammaton76
11-17-2006, 6:58 PM
You shouldn't compare the price of a start-up company's product to RRA's A2 buttstock. Think of the startup costs and the sheer volume of products that must be manufactured and sold to break even. After the stock starts selling expect the product's price to drop.

Also, it's likely, unless I'm totally off, that even a synthetic stock would be in the same price range.

Actually, I wasn't talking about getting anywhere close to an A2 price point. I'm thinking that if doing a run of synthetic stocks would get it into the $120 range, they'll sell like hotcakes.

donger
11-17-2006, 7:06 PM
Actually, I wasn't talking about getting anywhere close to an A2 price point. I'm thinking that if doing a run of synthetic stocks would get it into the $120 range, they'll sell like hotcakes.

I don't know Gram, I kind of think that the price point would be similar with s synthetic stock. I'm not a polymer expert or anywhere close, but I would imagine that the synthetic version would run about the same cost (initially).

PIRATE14
11-17-2006, 7:11 PM
Actually, I wasn't talking about getting anywhere close to an A2 price point. I'm thinking that if doing a run of synthetic stocks would get it into the $120 range, they'll sell like hotcakes.

Well if you look at the boat paddle stock those run about 120???

Plus you've got another tube here 20-30??
Foam....5?

So at 185 sounds pretty close.........;)

xenophobe
11-17-2006, 7:18 PM
I have one of these stocks, minus the Ace foam extension tube covers. I'll be posting pictures tomorrow, and the stock will be available to "feel in person" at San Jose Gun Exchange after tonight.

If you want to come down and check it out, feel free to stop by. I'll have it on one of my builds so you can feel it for yourself.

I have a few comments on it before I post a full-featured review. Even though this stock looks a bit odd and "spacey" it feels great. The grip is as natural as you can get for an AR style rifle without a pistol grip. You have to try it to believe it.

You might think the price is high, but the quality is superb. It is a really solid design that does not move or wiggle, and the quality of the textured epoxy finish is really nice. It is a very nice feeling stock. It has the feel of a professionally created and finished product.

I would like to see one come out in a fancy figured walnut with handguards to match....

I'll post more tomorrow night, and hopefully have a full review with pictures by the end of the weekend.

paradox
11-17-2006, 7:20 PM
The connection the stock makes to the receiver is so strong, should you ever need to butt whip someone with the U-15 stock you will not have to worry about damaging the rifle.


Structural strength is something that has always bugged me about this design (which has been around in photoshop form since Mudís thread and re-appears every couple of months). That is a mighty big lever you are bolting on to the pistol grip mount. It has always looked to me like you could easily bust either the ears on the stock mount or even the lower by falling on the gun. Also, the buffer is even more exposed to damage than it normally is. Have you done any destructive testing? How much lateral force at the butt of the stock does it take to break something?

The other issue I have is ergonomics. It looks like youíd need really long fingers to use this stock given the web of hand to trigger face length. This stock design is different enough from anything else out there, it would be nice to be able to shoulder it a few times before buying. Guess thatís why youíll be on the gunshow circuit...

Overall though, I think this is a very well executed example of this design.

bg
11-17-2006, 7:22 PM
Should of numbered the first 100 or so as collectors
if the idea pans out..Interesting concept.

drclark
11-17-2006, 7:22 PM
I like having more options. From the looks of it, this looks like the best option for those who want a detachable mag. Do you need to use the carbine buffer tube so that it does not contact your stock to avoid the appearance of a "thumbhole"?

I appreciate the ingenuity and innovation displayed by all the members of the CA OLL community. It just makes be a bit sad we have to go to such lengths to avoid the "evilness" of a $.99 pistol grip.

Lastly, In the pictures you posted the A1 style upper with triangular handguards.... is that a FH on the muzzle or a "look-a-like" muzzle-brake? I can't really tell from the photo.....

drc

Fjold
11-17-2006, 7:24 PM
The U-15 stock is mated to a aluminum bracket. The bracket attaches to the receiver using the same socket head cap screw used by the pistol grip.


Grant what is the buttstock material made out of? Laminate?

the_lynch_family
11-17-2006, 7:26 PM
I am thinking your new stock with this stock saddle may work as a nice accessory to your setup.. But maybe flip it around 180 degrees. Maybe I had to many bears, Not sure. I will rethink it in about 2 hours..LOL
http://tdi-arms.com/properties/inventory/images/200/284_6.jpg

sniper_jay
11-17-2006, 7:28 PM
u tryin' to put prince50 outta business?

Mr331
11-17-2006, 7:31 PM
Crap....now I gotta build up one of my lowers. This is what I have been waiting for.

Ironwood Designs
11-17-2006, 7:42 PM
Fjold,
The butt stock is made from European Beechwood. Very solid piece of wood. About the same weight and density as Walnut.

Paradox,
The bracket is T6 alloy, CNC machined, and hard anodized, like the AR receiver. The fit of the bracket and the stock is tight, so no movement will occur bewteen them. The fit of the bracket to the receiver is a slip fit. I wouldn't be concerned about breaking the ears off of the bracket, it's a pretty solid piece.

Last comment. You needn't have huge hands to grip the stock. It will accomodate most sized paws.

Sorry to pipe in, just trying to answer some questions and provide any info that might be helpful.

Matt
www.Ironwooddesigns.com

Toolbox X
11-17-2006, 7:43 PM
Regarding a synthetic or polymer version of the U-15 stock:

Manufacturing something like this out of a polymer would be cheaper, and I mean a LOT cheaper, if I were to mfg 30,000 stocks.

The setup costs alone for me to create a polymer version of the U-15 stock would be $150,000 - $200,000.

I was a little hesitant to believe those numbers when I first heard them, but check this out. The John Masen recoil pad I install on the U-15 stock is designed to fit into the back of the polymer A2 stock. It replaces the trapdoor plate. So the John Mason pad has a protrusion that sticks out the back of the recoil pad about a 1/4" and slips inside the rim of the A2 stock. I have to use an exacto knife to cut off that protrusion for each and every recoil pad I install on a U-15 stock. Boy does that get old.

So I called John Masen up and asked if they could mfg me a recoil pad identical to the one they already make, except could they just leave the back of the pad flat. They said they could, but it would cost me $20,000 for them to create the mold and setup all the equipment. And that doesn't include the cost of the pads themselves.

And that's just for a stupid rubber recoil pad. After that I don't doubt it would cost me $150,000 - $200,000 to get setup to make polymer stocks.

I know $185 seems high, and I really want and intend to bring it down. But I've got thousands of dollars in development costs and thousands in patent costs to make up for. Also, the first run of anything is always much more expensive. It takes so much longer because of all the bugs and problems you have to work out as you go.

I hope people will recognize that although $185 is a lot of money, I did this for you guys and everyone else who wants to shoot with detachable mags in CA. I love our community. I've spent more than $13,000 so far, and I'm not making a lot of profit on these stocks. They are very well made and it costs a lot of money to make something high quality like this.

-Grant

icormba
11-17-2006, 7:44 PM
Hey all,
Matt has shown me a few of his other design works... GOOD stuff! I know nothing would leave his place that wasn't quality work. So if Matt is putting these things out for Grant, it's gotta be worth it. PLUS he is a local Californian. ;)



Het guys,
Matt from Ironwood Designs here. Grant just let me know that he posted the new U-15 stock here on Cal Guns. I am very excited for him, as we both put a lot of time and energy into producing this stock. The first run does always costs more. Make no mistake, these units are quality pieces, inside and out, I know, because I was responsible for the final design and the complete manufacturing of the stock.

Just wanted to make a few comments regarding some of the other comments.

Regarding the cheek rest assumptions. When we put together the first few units, yesterday afternoon, and shouldered them, there was no surprise.
What I am trying to say is that they feel natural and comfortable. There is no "huh" somethings feel odd. They saddle right up, with no discomfort in the grip area, or with the cheek piece. If anything, thay are vastly more comforable on the face, than a std. A2 stock. There is plenty of room for eye relief face movement.

I have been designing and manufacturing gun stocks for nearly 15 years, so I know a little about rifle ergonomics. I'll tell you this straight up, it fits and feels good, plain and simple.

Anyway, I'll let you guys get back to your thought and comments.
Another reminder, if you are in the So-Cal area, please come by and see us
at the Coata Mesa Gun Show, Nov 26-26

Hope to see you there.

Thanks,
Matt
www.Ironwoddesigns.com

Hunter
11-17-2006, 7:59 PM
.....Maybe I had to many bears, Not sure. I will rethink it in about 2 hours..LOL



Ummmm, I would say so! :D ]

Toolbox X
11-17-2006, 8:03 PM
I like having more options. From the looks of it, this looks like the best option for those who want a detachable mag. Do you need to use the carbine buffer tube so that it does not contact your stock to avoid the appearance of a "thumbhole"?

I appreciate the ingenuity and innovation displayed by all the members of the CA OLL community. It just makes be a bit sad we have to go to such lengths to avoid the "evilness" of a $.99 pistol grip.

Lastly, In the pictures you posted the A1 style upper with triangular handguards.... is that a FH on the muzzle or a "look-a-like" muzzle-brake? I can't really tell from the photo.....

drc

Yes. If the stock had a hole it would be a thumbhole stock which is an evil feature. The carbine buffer allows us to seperate the receiver extension from the stock alltogether, and avoid the dreaded thumbhole we all know is so dangerous.

It kills me as well how stupid our state's gun laws are, but we live here so we must play by the rules. Honestly, half the reason I designed the U-15 in the first place was because it was such a challenge to come up with a design that stayed within the law. I love a challenge.

You are saavy. I was wondering who would notice that first. Yes, that is a flash hider on my A1 upper. I realized that as I was setting up to take those pictures so I made sure to put one of my lowers that still has a prince50 kit and fixed mag on that rifle. Gotta play by the rules. You have sharp eyes.

BTW, anyone who wants to see full size pictures email me at CARifles@gmail.com and I will email them to you.

-Grant

Satex
11-17-2006, 8:10 PM
I think it looks like pure evil! It is so different - that it's a beauty!
Need to think about it some, and I agree with others that a lower cost synthetic one may be more attractive.

norbs007
11-17-2006, 8:35 PM
Enough said, if you have one available for sale, I'll take it. Just PM me where to send payment. If I like it, expect for more orders. Thanks.

glockk9mm
11-17-2006, 8:49 PM
They can try, but the law as of right now clearly says thumbhole,this doesn't seem to have one.

bu-bye
11-17-2006, 8:55 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:

I think I will be going to SJGE tomorrow to see this for myself. Nice work Toolbox!

thmpr
11-17-2006, 8:57 PM
Great job!!! I would like to buy two please. Is it available?

leelaw
11-17-2006, 9:04 PM
out-freaking-standing!

I am very interested in one, and Christmas is right around the corner.... :D

donger
11-17-2006, 9:14 PM
i might think DOJ will shoot it down because it's "almost" similar to a thumbhole stock, wouldn't you think?


I'm not a lawyer or anything, but I don't believe that any law is "almost."

esskay
11-17-2006, 9:17 PM
As they say necessity is the mother of invention!

Another thing which I would love to see down the line is shorter LOP versions, at least perhaps a version that is A1 (vs A2) length. I suppose going any shorter might get a little closer to the buffer tube than you'd be comfortable?

C.G.
11-17-2006, 9:25 PM
i might think DOJ will shoot it down because it's "almost" similar to a thumbhole stock, wouldn't you think?

It seems legal since the web is above trigger, price reasonable; my only worry is that it attaches, I assume, with only one machine screw. Time will tell whether the screw will have a tendency to get loose or fatigue.

swift
11-17-2006, 9:28 PM
deleted

diddler
11-17-2006, 9:40 PM
I'm with Bu-bye, I think this warrants a trip over there tomorrow. Just the sort of thing you need to lay hands on.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I think I will be going to SJGE tomorrow to see this for myself. Nice work Toolbox!

DJMAN
11-17-2006, 9:43 PM
I want one! Building my sixth OLL with a U-15. YEAH:D

trouble
11-17-2006, 9:57 PM
Neat idea, great execution. Nice to have yet another option!

Any chance we could see pics of somebody holding it? Any chance at all somebody could pistol grip it and still reach the trigger?

eckerph
11-17-2006, 10:05 PM
Its crazy but its genius! It would look better if their were less of s gap between everything.

damon1272
11-17-2006, 10:09 PM
Man, the more I look at that stock the more I like it. It is still a little funky in the looks but not in a bad way. You mentioned that the butt pad was off for a A2 or something and you had to trim the pad. It is probably too late in the process but would a ruber butt pad for a M1A work as it looks the same. I do not know if the profile is marketly different or not. In any case I think you may be having some butt pad trimming parties really soon.

Q
11-17-2006, 10:14 PM
nice work. i may have to get one by christmas. :D

1hotshooter
11-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Futuristic .... Awesome... Very Cool looking

I LIKE IT!

:D

madjack956
11-17-2006, 10:38 PM
HA-HA Outstanding! :D :D :D :D

luvtolean
11-17-2006, 10:42 PM
That is the first truly developed, professional looking piece I've seen for OLLS. You clearly partnered with the right people.

I believe with the passage of 2728 we'll see many more.

Very, very nice job! I think you're pricing is spot on for quality and workmanship.

So is the LOP A2 length, A1?

pacificcoast
11-17-2006, 10:46 PM
i guess ill be the voice of dissent. im not really feeling it. it certainly isnt aesthetically pleasing. despite that, i do appreciate the time and effort and money youve put into it, hopefully youre able to recoup it.

do you have any sort of qualified legal review?

Dont Tread on Me
11-17-2006, 10:48 PM
Toolbox X - that is rocking! Christmas has come early to Calguns.

I'll have to make a trip to Xenophobe's store to see this in person.

The only thing that worries me is the distance between the back of the hand and the trigger. Is it comfortable?

stealthmode
11-17-2006, 10:48 PM
i think those stocks are pretty neat looking and if they are approved i will want some.

tenpercentfirearms
11-17-2006, 11:02 PM
I just talked to Toolbox on the phone! Ten Percent Firearms should have a test model in their hands by Thanksgiving and as soon as they are sale to the general public, we will be selling them as well.

I can't wait to have an U-15 on the wall next to my fixed build and MonsterMan build FAB-10s floor models.

Better yet I can't wait to shoot it! You know I haven't even had a chance to shoot my MonsterMan build yet so this is going to give me an excellent chance to go out and do a well written MonsterMan vs. U-15 comparison! I have a feeling the U-15 and the MonsterMan won't be so much of a competition. It would be like comparing a Lexus to a Lamborghini.

Plus if you are like me, you have 10 lower receivers and this is just going to help me have one more option to build them up!

This is a great day in OLL history. Toolbox, my hat's off to you.

guimus
11-17-2006, 11:15 PM
Wow. I'm impressed. I think I may have seen you (or someone with a similar project) up at Chabot a couple months ago doing some early tests. I'm certainly on board for one, and if I like it, many more!

Teletiger7
11-17-2006, 11:16 PM
Any chance that this stock will have a version that has a synthetic 6-position stock? Like a regular 6 position stock but upside down. I would buy that for sure.

tenpercentfirearms
11-17-2006, 11:19 PM
Any chance that this stock will have a version that has a synthetic 6-position stock? Like a regular 6 position stock but upside down. I would buy that for sure.
A synthetic 6 position stock would make it an evil feature and you would have to have a fixed magazine. Is there any reason you would like a really complicated collapsible stock for $185 on up versus one of the $65-$240 stocks that are already out there? :confused:

Joe
11-17-2006, 11:19 PM
Any chance that this stock will have a version that has a synthetic 6-position stock? Like a regular 6 position stock but upside down. I would buy that for sure.

The point of this stock is so the rifle can have no evil features and a detachable magazine. A collapsable stock is an evil feature so if you had that then it would defeat the purpose of this stock. With a collapsable stock the mag would need to be fixed.

Ryan HBC
11-17-2006, 11:33 PM
I think that is FANTASTIC. It has the added thumb control that some CA legal stocks lack.

It also looks like a high quality part, and well worth the price. I would be glad to pay the premium over something of lesser quality.

Toolbox X
11-17-2006, 11:49 PM
Everyone,

Thank you so much for all the feedback. I've been looking forward to this day for a long time, but I've also been scared of it. You just never know if something is going to be liked or not. Matt and I are very used to the design, but I know how crazy it looks when someone sees it for the first time. It really takes a little while for the look to sink in sometimes.

I am so proud to be part of this community. Even the people who have had negative things to say have been very respectful, constructive and appreciated the hard work and effort Matt and I put into this. I hoped for a lot of positive responses, but you guys have been over the top. Thank you.

I should have 20-25 stocks ready by Wednesday and the remaining 65-70 by the following week. (The stocks are all complete, I am only missing the receiver extensions kits.)

I have always planned to have the website and all the stocks completely ready when I announced the U-15, but the opportunity to go to the Costa Mesa gunshow was too good to pass up, so I had to announce the U-15 a little sooner than I was ready for. However it will be worth it to give the Socal people the chance to come to the show and get the stock in their hands.

Again, I can't thank you guys enough for the feedback and support. You are going to love this stock. I'll get them to you as soon as I possibly can.

-Grant

artherd
11-18-2006, 12:25 AM
Guys, I've seen Grants numbers, and I know it's hard to belive in a world of mass-production and huge volume, combined with R&D and production in china, but go back to the USA, and the realities of low-volume and high-quality domestic produciton, and you will see clearly that Grant really is making no money here.

Infact, he'll probally loose money bringing you these stocks. (I told you man don't bother with a patent, just be first to market!) In that regard, you're buying about a $500-1000+ near-custom prototype run stock for only $185 bux, I'd grab several if I were you.

I can say this, short of the dated DROS for your lower, This is the single most signifigant develepment in OLLs since some yahoo posted a pic of him and his OLL in a tux! :)

Grant: it's so wonderful to see this finally come to fruition! Congrats and good luck!
-Ben.

bu-bye
11-18-2006, 12:40 AM
This is the single most signifigant develepment in OLLs since some yahoo posted a pic of him and his OLL in a tux! :)

Grant: it's so wonderful to see this finally come to fruition! Congrats and good luck!
-Ben.

HAHAHA yeah who was that crackpot with the nice kitchen?:D

I agree that it is great deal. I hope to see a lot sold.

eviioiive
11-18-2006, 1:37 AM
i actually have a "photoshopped" version of that i made in 2004 and sent to a few ar15 makers and was told there was no market for it. thank you for finally making it.

tenpercentfirearms
11-18-2006, 1:39 AM
i actually have a "photoshopped" version of that i made in 2004 and sent to a few ar15 makers and was told there was no market for it. thank you for finally making it.
I sense a lawsuit coming on!!! ;)

blackberg
11-18-2006, 2:00 AM
Nice!
Will definetly be getting one when they become available and I m ready,
I was putting of an AR beacuse of the fixed mag, this is perfect

See you in Costa Mesa

Paul
11-18-2006, 6:33 AM
Cost of an Off List Lower: $135
Cost of the parts to finish it: $550
Cost of this rifle stock: $185

Being able to shoot an AR-15 under Diane Fineswines nose: PRICELESS!

:)

Wulf
11-18-2006, 9:32 AM
Kudos on the stock and kudos on scheduling the release so that Iggy has to cut his thanksgiving break short and board a plane to orange county to check it out in person. ;)

Patriot
11-18-2006, 9:34 AM
How much does it weigh?


Thanks

randy
11-18-2006, 9:51 AM
If this lets the OLL's run detatchable mags legaly it's a steal at $185. Good luck sell a bunch

ybz
11-18-2006, 9:51 AM
anyone wants to change the odds on Listing before the 1/1/07???

GTKrockeTT
11-18-2006, 9:59 AM
any chance we could get closeups of the stock attachment point? looks like there's a gap in some of the pictures between the stock and the receiver.

detmeng
11-18-2006, 10:14 AM
Absolutely a fine piece of work, when they hit the market I'll be in for several.

Cobrarlc
11-18-2006, 10:28 AM
Will you be accepting Cash, Check, or Credit Card at Costa Mesa for the U-15?
I would like two please.

kap
11-18-2006, 10:54 AM
I have been extremely hesitant to build an AR simply because of the silly restrictions on fixed mags and was considering a M1A, mini14 or moving to Oklahoma instead. This is a great design. I will see you at the Costa Mesa Gun show on Sunday.

ARRRR-15
11-18-2006, 10:54 AM
Have you talked to or gotten any response about this stock from the DOJ? Is it legal?

If so, and this design is legal what's stopping you from making a stock with a steeper grip. Is there a certain degree/angle that makes a stock/grip illegal?
Maybe something like this. Please forgive my photoshop skills. I did this in 2 minutes. Disregard the upper portion in the photo. Imagine toolbox's design with the buffer tube.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p75/ARRRR-15/calgripstock.jpg

m1371
11-18-2006, 11:03 AM
For everyone who is saying the price is too high or that the aesthetics don't appeal to them.....

You are ALL missing something important here.

The anti-gun politicians and the DOJ have tried their damnedest to shut us down.

How many of you paid quite a bit more than the going "free-state" prices on off-list lowers when word first went around about them?

How many people said "I'm not really into AR's but I'll get one because now I can!" ?

Toolbox has designed a stock that negates all the moronic little legalese worded obstacles that the politicians thought would block OUR rights to keep and bear arms.

You've got the opportunity to flip the bird to all the anti-gun politicians and the CA DOJ who've been such a pain over the past year or so and you're griping about costs or how it looks????? :confused:

Like anotherted stated : This is the single most signifigant develepment in OLLs since some yahoo posted a pic of him and his OLL in a tux!

Between this and the MonsterMan Grip, we can run detachable mags like the AR platform was intended in the first place.

No more having to worry about if the DOJ is going to come after you over the issue of whether your lower has the capacity to accept a magazine AND you don't have to crack open the rifle to load it.

Yeah, we're still screwed with the 10rd magazine limitation (unless you already had standard capacity mags in the first place).

BUT..... We've got something here that no one in the CA DOJ can say does not meet the letter of the law. The threat of 58 DAs is pretty much out the window, too. :p

I'm impressed at the lengths Toolbox went to in order to see this project to fruition. And I'm also impressed that a manufacturer was willing to get onboard something like this to make it happen.

To Grant and Matt, my hat is off to both of you gentlemen!

stator
11-18-2006, 11:05 AM
Have you talked to or gotten any response about this stock from the DOJ? Is it legal?

If so, and this design is legal what's stopping you from making a stock with a steeper grip. Is there a certain degree/angle that makes a stock/grip illegal?
Maybe something like this. Please forgive my photoshop skills. I did this in 2 minutes. Disregard the upper portion in the photo. Imagine toolbox's design with the buffer tube.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p75/ARRRR-15/calgripstock.jpg

No, it would not be legal according to the DOJ. This is because of several reasons. First, it allows the webbing between one's thumb and first finger to be below the top of the exposed trigger while grasping. Second, Lockyer (and Randy Rossi for all you Randy fans) believes that it is a thumbhole stock nonetheless.

Unfortunately, this would make ToolBoxX's stock an illegal thumbhole stock unless the mag is fixed and 10 rounds or less. Lockyer and Rossi held press conferencs back in the early SB23 days. All of these stocks had been proposed then. They believe that due to the AR15 design, there could not be a legal, non-pistol grip or non-thumbhole stock. They asserted that the buffer tube is part of the stock. So therefore, ToolboxX's stock is really a modified thumbhole stock, but still a thumbhole stock which is listed as a SB23 ban feature.

Interesting in that they did not clarify that in the regulations, I believe (I will check). However, if ToolboxX's stock gets market attention, I would think the odds of us sending letters to Jeff Almador for updating the regulations for thumbhole stocks is likely.

If ToolboxX sends a letter with a sample to the DOJ for evaluation, he should get a response back that they consider it a thumbhole stock when outfitted on an AR with the buffer tube attached. That is what happened to that type of design years ago.

If I plunked down $190 + tax for that stock, I would demand to see the DOJ's response letter first.

bg
11-18-2006, 11:06 AM
I think it'll fly..It may look a lil strange at first, but
remember a lot of people thought the VW Type 1
was a strange little car. I think VW has done fairly
well on sales since it's first showing here in the states,
haven't they ? I remember the first time I saw a
Steyr Aug. I thought what a weird thing THAT is..
Wish I had one now..

brando
11-18-2006, 11:12 AM
I praise your ingenuity, but it is really sad that it has come to this. If anything, I hope this starts to chip away at the stupidity of AW legislation.

m1371
11-18-2006, 11:28 AM
No, it would not be legal according to the DOJ. This is because of several reasons. First, it allows the webbing between one's thumb and first finger to be below the top of the exposed trigger while grasping. Second, Lockyer (and Randy Rossi for all you Randy fans) believes that it is a thumbhole stock nonetheless.

Unfortunately, this would make ToolBoxX's stock an illegal thumbhole stock unless the mag is fixed and 10 rounds or less. Lockyer and Rossi held press conferencs back in the early SB23 days. All of these stocks had been proposed then. They believe that due to the AR15 design, there could not be a legal, non-pistol grip or non-thumbhole stock. They asserted that the buffer tube is part of the stock. So therefore, ToolboxX's stock is really a modified thumbhole stock, but still a thumbhole stock which is listed as a SB23 ban feature.

Interesting in that they did not clarify that in the regulations, I believe (I will check). However, if ToolboxX's stock gets market attention, I would think the odds of us sending letters to Jeff Almador for updating the regulations for thumbhole stocks is likely.

If ToolboxX sends a letter with a sample to the DOJ for evaluation, he should get a response back that they consider it a thumbhole stock when outfitted on an AR with the buffer tube attached. That is what happened to that type of design years ago.

If I plunked down $190 + tax for that stock, I would demand to see the DOJ's response letter first.

I'm betting that a good legal team would chew up the DOJ in court and spit them out, especially based on their legal abilities they've demonstrated lately.

To say this is a "modified" thumbhole stock seems to be stretching it because it never started off intending to be a thumbhole stock in the first place. It was designed as a one-piece stock with that primary function in mind and is constructed from scratch as a single-piece stock without any provisions for a thumbhole.

It looks like it satisfies every stipulation that the law sets forth to avoid being classed as a pistol grip or a thumbhole stock.

I'd say we've all seen & experienced plenty of the CA DOJ personnel giving their "opinions" about what they think is legal and what is not VS actually reading the regulations and complying with them.

Wouldn't be too big a surprise to me if they tried to not give a straight answer on whether or not this stock is legal.

Leaving it up to one of the 58 DAs to decide seems to be their way of getting out of having to take responsibility for a decision they don't like. :rolleyes:

I would put my money on Toolbox and Ironwood Designs. This doesn't look like it was half-assed or just thrown together without any thought towards the design.

mattmcg
11-18-2006, 12:20 PM
Ok, first I have to say, this is a great innovation and I'm glad that proud Californians are putting their money where there mouth is to fight for our 2nd Amendment rights!

A couple of comments:
1. The price is right. If you want to shoot an AR in CA, you should expect to pay a bit of a premium for quality hardware that conforms to CA law.
2. Get the DOJ opinion about legality of this not being a pistol grip. With an endorsement (tough to get now but I hope you've thought ahead and already done this), you could sell over 10,000 units in CA alone (assuming the estimated quantities of stripped lowers are really in the 50K-60K range).
3. This is a great first product.
4. Follow-on products could include a synthetic version (once the tooling and production volumes can be afforded), an "ACE like" version that connects back to the buffer tube (creating a continuous upper cheek weld), and a rifle length version.
5. I'm definitely planning on visiting BigMac or Xeno to see one of these.

Good stuff!

m1371
11-18-2006, 12:30 PM
4. Follow-on products could include a synthetic version (once the tooling and production volumes can be afforded), an "ACE like" version that connects back to the buffer tube (creating a continuous upper cheek weld), and a rifle length version.

I'm pretty sure that right there would constitute a "thumbhole stock" if the buffertube were connected to the buttstock.

Just my .02 for ya.

mattmcg
11-18-2006, 12:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that right there would constitute a "thumbhole stock" if the buffertube were connected to the buttstock.

Just my .02 for ya.

Why? If the opening was well outside of the reach of an individual's thumb, there is no jury in this state that would find it reasonably defined as a thumbhole stock.

Ironwood Designs
11-18-2006, 12:49 PM
Matt from Ironwood here,

I too cannot see how the stock can be called a thumbhole. I'm betting that when they wrote the initial features part of the laws, they were looking directly at all of the post ban import guns that had the "thumbhole" stocks.
Those stock allows a grasping position that is pretty much the same as a free standing pistol grip, and has an actual hole for the thumb. The U-15 grasps no different than an M1A or a std. rifle stock.

I think if it were to be challenged, the DOJ really couldn't state that our new design constitutes a thumbhole stock. There is no hole, the stock is separate from the buffer tube assembly. The hand is positioned such that the web of the thumb and forefinger are postiioned above the top exposed part of the trigger. It abides by all of the DOJ requirements.


Anyway, thanks for the additional comments and compliments.
As Grant has stated in previous post, he did this for the California shooter. It defintely was a labor of love for him. I also thank him for allowing my design input into this project.

Thanks,
Matt
www.Ironwooddesigns.com

xenophobe
11-18-2006, 12:50 PM
The only thing that worries me is the distance between the back of the hand and the trigger. Is it comfortable?

Come try it for yourself. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

megavolt121
11-18-2006, 1:47 PM
I just checked this grip out at the SJGE. Let me say, WOW!!! It is amazingly comfortable to hold the gun. My original two concerns were weight and how far your finger would be from the trigger, but neither were issues for me. Where do I sign up to buy one?

mattmcg
11-18-2006, 2:13 PM
Someone post a picture with a human hand on this bad boy!

Yes, I second that request! Please use a normal, comfortable hand hold so that we know what to expect!

PLINK
11-18-2006, 2:23 PM
I got to meet with Grant, the creator of the U-15. I also got to handle the U-15 stock (I will get to that in a second). I never met Grant before. I will say he is definitely one of us. He is a gun enthusiast who likes to shoot. He seems like a stand up guy and I will have no problem buying anything from him. His intension with this stock is not to create competition or to make a ton of cash but to give OLL owners another option. I truly believe this because he has many of the other OLL products already. Grant is very excited about this product. I will say that I am too. Attention to detail and quality is very important to him. His product shows it. Now on to my opinion of the stock.

The U-15 is a quality stock. The CNC machining on the aluminum bracket is nicely done. The finish is also very nice and even. The hardware that holds the stock to the bracket are Allen head screws. The wood stock has a nice even finish. At first I didn't even think it was even made of wood. The length is a hair longer than an A2 stock. Not really noticeable when shouldering the rifle. The overall construction of this stock is superb.

Shouldering the rifle feels comfortable. There is enough thumb clearance between the buffer tube and stock. I did not feel that I had to put much effort to reaching the trigger. The cheek weld felt comfortable as well. The rifle points naturally and looking down sights seemed normal. I did not feel that there was much added weight. The rifle seemed to have a nice balance. Overall this stock did not make me feel that I was holding something really weird and uncomfortable. I am very impressed with it. I will be purchasing one soon.

Some things I did notice, but does not effect my decision to buy are that there is no sling mount on this version. I gave Grant some ideas on the sling mount. He also had a few of his own and I would not be surprised to see it on a future batch to come. I was unable to reach the safety with my thumb. I assume this is due the location of the web of my hand.

The U-15 stock is another great option to the OLL owners. I think the quality and feel is awesome. I don't think you will be dissapointed.



Side note:

I currently have a SRB and a few MonsterMan grips. Hopefully soon I will have a U-15 stock. I don't feel that it is appropriate to compare the U-15 to the Monsterman grip or the SRB because these three items are entirely different products. I think there is room for all three. Don't you?

PLINK
11-18-2006, 2:24 PM
Someone post a picture with a human hand on this bad boy!

I also mentioned to Grant that he should post a pic of this. I think he will soon.

AntiBubba 2.1
11-18-2006, 2:56 PM
Damn you! Now I have to buy an OLL. :D

When can we "try it out for size" here in Sacramento?

rkt88edmo
11-18-2006, 3:00 PM
Outstanding!!!

Now, why A2 length instead of A1 length, easier to get/make spacers than to cut stocks down <ducks> :)

VeryCoolCat
11-18-2006, 3:13 PM
I can't see this being legal.... the tube left over from the receiver is considered the stock, and the "grip style stock" would be considered a grip seperately.

The way I see it, you cut DOWN the stock, and just added a very large pistol grip.

This is way to grey of an area for me... unless you get a doj letter....

Also the stress being put into the stock... be sure to do some durability testing on the stock. don't want it breaking after a few hundred rounds.

Stuka
11-18-2006, 3:15 PM
Any chance of it being available with its wood finish (stained or otherwise)?

bu-bye
11-18-2006, 3:16 PM
Just got back from SJGE and held the U-15. Let me tell you, it sure is a peace of work. Fit and finish is excellent and even the weight was much lighter then I expected. First thing I did was pick up the rifle, closed my eyes and shouldered it. Opening my eyes, the sights where right on and the grip did not feel bad at all. Looking at the pic's it seems as if the reach to the trigger would be a mile long but that just was not true. Grip felt very nice, almost like a thinner Garand. You can not even feel the the gap between the buffer tub and the stock on your cheek. Other then it looking funny its really is a quality stock that works very well. I would even go as far as saying you have more control of the U-15 then you do with a pistol grip because you can use your forearms to balance the rifle which you can't do with a pistol grip. I'm looking forward to buying this stock as well as a BSR-15 when they come out. 2006 has been a great year for Cali gun owners and i think 2007 will be just as nice.:)

blacklisted
11-18-2006, 3:30 PM
I can't see this being legal.... the tube left over from the receiver is considered the stock, and the "grip style stock" would be considered a grip seperately.

The way I see it, you cut DOWN the stock, and just added a very large pistol grip.

This is way to grey of an area for me... unless you get a doj letter....

Also the stress being put into the stock... be sure to do some durability testing on the stock. don't want it breaking after a few hundred rounds.

Have you ever actually looked at the definition of "pistol grip"?

Allow me to explain.

This stock is legal for the same reason that the McMillan M3 and JAE-100 M14 stocks are.

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan/tactical/tactical.asp#M3A
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/

A pistol grip is basically a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the hand is below an imaginary line extended out (and parallel to) the top of the exposed portion of the trigger. This is non-negotiable.

’’pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon’ means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (beneath the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.”

It does not matter if the U-15 is a "stock" or "grip". If it's a grip, it is not a pistol grip. If it is a stock, it is not a thumbhole stock. Also, the "tube" is not the stock, it is part of the receiver (it is called the "receiver extension"). Even AR pistols have a short receiver extension, which is definately NOT considered a stock.

The two stocks you see above place the web of the hand well above the imaginary line.

The U-15 stock is the same way.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/ebolamonkey/webhand.jpg

It is legal, and there isn't any amount of "clarifying" they can do to make it not so.

Hopefully that clears things up.

tenpercentfirearms
11-18-2006, 3:42 PM
Lets just call it the U-15 Grip! What a great idea. It most certainly doesn't allow for a pistol style grasp with the web of the hand below the exposed part of the trigger. Good idea verycoolcat. It is now the U-15 Grip! :D

blacklisted
11-18-2006, 3:43 PM
Lets just call it the U-15 Grip! What a great idea. It most certainly doesn't allow for a pistol style grasp with the web of the hand below the exposed part of the trigger. Good idea verycoolcat. It is now the U-15 Grip! :D

Whatever we may call it, it is exactly what we need. :D

I'll definately be getting one of these.

This grip/stock/whatever allows me to set aside all of my worries about the new "capacity to accept" regulation.

ETA: Thanks for replying to my email about the MM grip so quickly.

BB63Squid
11-18-2006, 5:09 PM
I also had an opportunity to go over to SJGE and give the U-15 the fit & feel test. I liked it. The length was good and my concer about the buffer tube being in the way was nixed. What I did notice was that my thumb knuckle touched the bottom side of the buffer tube. So I would be curious how the skin on my thumb and the foam on the buffer tube would hold out after a few hundred rounds.

PLINK
11-18-2006, 5:16 PM
I also had an opportunity to go over to SJGE and give the U-15 the fit & feel test. I liked it. The length was good and my concer about the buffer tube being in the way was nixed. What I did notice was that my thumb knuckle touched the bottom side of the buffer tube. So I would be curious how the skin on my thumb and the foam on the buffer tube would hold out after a few hundred rounds.

I also got to hold a rifle without the foam on the receiver extention. If it bothers you, you could cut the foam length down and leave a one inch space. This would give your thumb some room and still give your cheek a soft place to rest.

Cobrarlc
11-18-2006, 5:17 PM
Thanks for the photo. This clearly passes the guidelines as given by DOJ
Have you ever actually looked at the definition of "pistol grip"?

Allow me to explain.

This stock is legal for the same reason that the McMillan M3 and JAE-100 M14 stocks are.

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan/tactical/tactical.asp#M3A
http://www.jallenenterprises.com/

A pistol grip is basically a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the hand is below an imaginary line extended out (and parallel to) the top of the exposed portion of the trigger. This is non-negotiable.



It does not matter if the U-15 is a "stock" or "grip". If it's a grip, it is not a pistol grip. If it is a stock, it is not a thumbhole stock. Also, the "tube" is not the stock, it is part of the receiver (it is called the "receiver extension"). Even AR pistols have a short receiver extension, which is definately NOT considered a stock.

The two stocks you see above place the web of the hand well above the imaginary line.

The U-15 stock is the same way.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/ebolamonkey/webhand.jpg

It is legal, and there isn't any amount of "clarifying" they can do to make it not so.

Hopefully that clears things up.

acegunnr
11-18-2006, 5:18 PM
This really fills a need for the California shooter. Great job! What about offering a limited edition, serialized, signed, stamped, etc, Calguns Members Edition? I think we have a winner here and the first hundred could be a collector!

metalhead357
11-18-2006, 5:42 PM
Ok, So I'm like new here and I heard about this OLL thing; can someone explain it further:p

OK, Uber cool stock.........And it looks to satisfy the DOJ definition WHICH IS EXACTLY why they'll do thier best to not allow it:rolleyes:

Would I buy one. Yep, on 2 prefixes.....the price drops below $100 and its Ok'd by DOJ. Funky catch-22 I know......... and yet I keep looking at those pics and dreaming:D

WokMaster1
11-18-2006, 6:11 PM
Another victory for Cal OLL owners. I bet Miss DOJ herself will be throwing herself in front of a bus in frustration. Note to Miss DOJ, the bus has to be moving for that scenario to work, DUH!:D

Dont Tread on Me
11-18-2006, 6:21 PM
One question: sling attachment options? Can I get one with a military style loop? Any off the shelf tac slings fit this honey?

I'm a 3 gunner so slings are important. I'll buy one of these stocks anyway:)

xenophobe
11-18-2006, 6:23 PM
Hmm... the stock does require a receiver end plate, so you could get a sling loop end plate. A tactical style that wraps around the butt might work.

Other than that, there isn't an attachment point for a sling.

Satex
11-18-2006, 6:27 PM
So, my questions are:
1) When would they be available for purchase?
2) Where would they be available? I think I heard SJGE and 10% saying they will carry. Will you sell direct, if so, details please? (vendors, please tell us when/how much)
3) Does the U-15 include the buffer tube and spring, or just the stock?

The more I look at it, the more I like it!

c good
11-18-2006, 6:33 PM
This is a fantastic idea and it looks as though it's built right! I also like the idea of it being available in an unfinished or natural wood option as mentioned in a previous post. I would be able to turn my own handguard but you might think about that as an option too. I'm in! c good

Fjold
11-18-2006, 6:49 PM
One question: sling attachment options? Can I get one with a military style loop? Any off the shelf tac slings fit this honey?

I'm a 3 gunner so slings are important. I'll buy one of these stocks anyway:)

It's solid wood so you could attach a sling swivel to it.

bu-bye
11-18-2006, 7:14 PM
Also, for those who have held one, 2 questions:

1) how easy is it to drop the mag with the right index finger ?
It can't be done while your hand is gripping. Its just to long of a reach

2) will it require an ambi-saftey ?
No it does not require it but if you wanted to add one you could. The safety switch can be flipped with your left.

TIA
...................

azn_wrx
11-18-2006, 7:52 PM
Since you guys will be in Costa Mesa, you may want to drop by Ade's and see if he would be interested in selling them in his shop or leaving one for display. There are a bunch of OLL guys in southern cali.

Toolbox X
11-18-2006, 8:18 PM
Guys,

I am sorry for my lack of responses. I have a 2 year old and a 5 month old (both boys) who are both sick and have taken most of my time.

The small amounts of free time I did have today I spent working on getting the parts ordered and rush shipped so I can have all 100 stocks ready for sale next week on Wednesday Nov 22nd and next weekend at the Costa Mesa gunshow. I don't have shipping confirmations yet, so don't count on Wednesday, but hopefully it will happen.

I'm thinking money orders or checks would work for those people who want them shipped. Also, once the stocks are ready, people will be welcome to pay cash and pick them up from my house in Sacramento. I always love meeting more Norcal shooters.

Give me one more night to think this through. Tomorrow I will most likely post the address you can mail a money order or check to if you want to order one now and guarantee you will get one of this first run of 100 U-15 stocks.

Also, The San Jose Gun Exchange and Ten Percent Firearms will carry the U-15 stock soon, but whatever they have will be part of this first run of 100.

Note: Anyone who has emailed me at CARifles@gmail.com (or PM'd me, but please try to use email) will get priority. I should have 25 stocks available Wednesday, if not all 100.


Also, I'll answer a few questions.

First, here is that picture you have been asking for.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Shouldered2.jpg
(Yes, I'm in dire need of a haircut.)

Please do what you can to see and shoulder the stock in person though. Pictures just don't do it justice. It really is comfortable. We put a lot of effort into making sure it would feel great with small, medium or large hands, and it's even ambidextrous.

You guys are on your own for sling mounts at the moment. Matt and I will see what we can do in the future for sure, but right now we've both got a million things to work out (with getting the stocks into your hands at the top of the list :) ).

The safety lever on the left side of the receiver is not accessible using your right thumb. Yeah, it sucks, but it's a sacrifice we could not avoid. An ambidextrous safety might bother your trigger finger. Once you get your U-15 stock installed please shoulder your rifle left handed to get an idea if a safety lever on the right side will bother you. Do this before you drop the money on an ambi safety. I know they are expensive.

The mag release button can be pressed easily with your trigger finger.

Yes, the $185 includes the receiver extension, buffer, buffer spring, foam tube and receiver plate. Install a trigger kit and your lower is complete. Attach an upper and you are shooting.

Installing the U-15 stock takes under 2 minutes if you know what you are doing, and 5 minutes if you don't. It doesn't require any tools other than the same allen wrench you would install a pistol grip with.

Toolbox X
11-18-2006, 8:22 PM
Oh yeah, if I can get the parts I need delivered by Wednesday I will bring all the unsold stocks I have to the Costa Mesa gunshow for purchase.

-Grant

cornholio1
11-18-2006, 8:34 PM
Guys,

I am sorry for my lack of responses. I have a 2 year old and a 5 month old (both boys) who are both sick and have taken most of my time.

The small amounts of free time I did have today I spent working on getting the parts ordered and rush shipped so I can have all 100 stocks ready for sale next week on Wednesday Nov 22nd and next weekend at the Costa Mesa gunshow. I don't have shipping confirmations yet, so don't count on Wednesday, but hopefully it will happen.

I'm thinking money orders or checks would work for those people who want them shipped. Also, once the stocks are ready, people will be welcome to pay cash and pick them up from my house in Sacramento. I always love meeting more Norcal shooters.

Give me one more night to think this through. Tomorrow I will most likely post the address you can mail a money order or check to if you want to order one now and guarantee you will get one of this first run of 100 U-15 stocks.

Also, The San Jose Gun Exchange and Ten Percent Firearms will carry the U-15 stock soon, but whatever they have will be part of this first run of 100.

Note: Anyone who has emailed me at CARifles@gmail.com (or PM'd me, but please try to use email) will get priority. I should have 25 stocks available Wednesday, if not all 100.


Also, I'll answer a few questions.

First, here is that picture you have been asking for.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/Toolbox-X/California%20Rifles%20U-15%20Stock/U-15Shouldered2.jpg
(Yes, I'm in dire need of a haircut.)

Please do what you can to see and shoulder the stock in person though. Pictures just don't do it justice. It really is comfortable. We put a lot of effort into making sure it would feel great with small, medium or large hands, and it's even ambidextrous.

You guys are on your own for sling mounts at the moment. Matt and I will see what we can do in the future for sure, but right now we've both got a million things to work out (with getting the stocks into your hands at the top of the list :) ).

The safety lever on the left side of the receiver is not accessible using your right thumb. Yeah, it sucks, but it's a sacrifice we could not avoid. An ambidextrous safety might bother your trigger finger. Once you get your U-15 stock installed please shoulder your rifle left handed to get an idea if a safety lever on the right side will bother you. Do this before you drop the money on an ambi safety. I know they are expensive.

The mag release button can be pressed easily with your trigger finger.

Yes, the $185 includes the receiver extension, buffer, buffer spring, foam tube and receiver plate. Install a trigger kit and your lower is complete. Attach an upper and you are shooting.

Installing the U-15 stock takes under 2 minutes if you know what you are doing, and 5 minutes if you don't. It doesn't require any tools other than the same allen wrench you would install a pistol grip with.


Take your finger off the trigger if you don't intend to shoot..lol

bu-bye
11-18-2006, 8:38 PM
Take your finger off the trigger if you don't intend to shoot..lol

:rolleyes: :p

capitol
11-18-2006, 8:39 PM
Does the charging handle hit/scrape the foam on the receiver extension when pulled back?

JPglee1
11-18-2006, 8:46 PM
Also the stress being put into the stock... be sure to do some durability testing on the stock. don't want it breaking after a few hundred rounds.
Have you actually shot an AR-15 :D :p

I highly doubt its gonna break that stock, but would be interesting to test to failure and see for sure.



J

JPglee1
11-18-2006, 8:49 PM
Hmm... the stock does require a receiver end plate, so you could get a sling loop end plate. A tactical style that wraps around the butt might work.

Other than that, there isn't an attachment point for a sling.

Just use a lockplate style sling plate for an M4 stock... hang the sling there.

http://www.gunandholster.com/images/ar_sling_mount_ggg_l.jpg

I would just weld a piece of steel or a washer to the lock plate myself and make my own sling mount.


JP

m1371
11-18-2006, 8:56 PM
First, here is that picture you have been asking for.

OPSEC man!!!! Don't let 'em see your face! :p

You should advertise with black bars across people's faces and call it a "Tactical" stock. :D

"Guaranteed to make your AR 125% more evil or your money back!"

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8914/u15shouldered2zd2.jpg

Prince50
11-18-2006, 9:11 PM
Love it!

I want one! See you at Costa Mesa.

Darin

AntiBubba 2.1
11-18-2006, 9:28 PM
Is it possible to get the foam tube with a "Hello Kitty" motif? :D


I'd like to see one for a Kalashniklone! I'll give you a few months, though. ;)

CalGunsNoob
11-18-2006, 9:35 PM
OPSEC man!!!! Don't let 'em see your face! :p

You should advertise with black bars across people's faces and call it a "Tactical" stock. :D

"Guaranteed to make your AR 125% more evil or your money back!"

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8914/u15shouldered2zd2.jpg

Is that considered a flashhider?

shark92651
11-18-2006, 9:51 PM
I love it! I don't think the price is that bad at all considering I just dropped $215 for a MagPul PRS and that does not even include the buffer receiver, buffer, and spring. Not to mention the fact that I still have to go gripless or use a fixed magazine. I see a U-15 in my very near future for my 2nd lower I just built this weekend. I guess I'll have an A2 stock assembly available on eBay or this forum real soon. God knows I won't keep the parts around here or else they will morph into a 3rd rifle :D

ChrisSig
11-18-2006, 9:51 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/chriscobain37/U-15Rifle-M4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/chriscobain37/m79-1.jpg

Holy mother of OLL....It's a Blooper stock!!! :)

I LIKE IT!

PLINK
11-18-2006, 10:06 PM
Is that considered a flashhider?

I believe it's a Bushmaster Izzy brake.

CalGunsNoob
11-18-2006, 10:27 PM
I believe it's a Bushmaster Izzy brake.


Thanks, it looks good. I guess a flash hider is parallel slots open to the muzzle end?

Or is it another of these nebulous DOJ things?

n6nvr
11-19-2006, 12:17 AM
Just use a lockplate style sling plate for an M4 stock... hang the sling there.

http://www.gunandholster.com/images/ar_sling_mount_ggg_l.jpg

I would just weld a piece of steel or a washer to the lock plate myself and make my own sling mount.


JP I might opt for the super high tech method. Use an Uncle Mikes with a wood screw base.

azn_wrx
11-19-2006, 12:51 AM
But JP not everyone has pro welding skills like you. Actually my beads really do look like utter crap. I really need to get back into welding again instead of asking my uncle to weld everything since hes had 40+ years experience lol.

anotherone
11-19-2006, 1:09 AM
Like I've said so many times before, these grip alternative stocks are just going to keep getting more creative, more deluxe, more ergonomic, and better in every way imaginable as time goes one. This is definitely the best effort I've seen yet. This and the Blackstar rifle are sure to give the DOJ headaches for years to come.

Nathan
11-19-2006, 1:18 AM
I think you guys have done a great job, and the price is not bad at all.

One thing I would like to see is a shorter version, maybe A1 length or even less. If not, I guess one could saw off and inch or so off the rear, and use a thinner pad. (sorry, the thought of someone putting a hacksaw to your stock probably makes you cringe.)

Anyways, I hope to make it to CM show to see one in person.

xenophobe
11-19-2006, 1:44 AM
I would even go as far as saying you have more control of the U-15 then you do with a pistol grip because you can use your forearms to balance the rifle which you can't do with a pistol grip.

Yeah, the thing I really noticed when holding it is that it's EASIER to hold the rifle level with one hand... So this next sentence is for the DOJ crew: This allows you to steady the rifle for EASIER one handed spraying of unlimited bullets without reloading!


2006 has been a great year for Cali gun owners and i think 2007 will be just as nice.:)

Definitely.

pacificcoast
11-19-2006, 1:52 AM
Yeah, the thing I really noticed when holding it is that it's EASIER to hold the rifle level with one hand... So this next sentence is for the DOJ crew: This allows you to steady the rifle for EASIER one handed spraying of unlimited bullets without reloading!




Definitely.

with this stock, can you indiscriminately fire the rifle one handed from the hip?!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Nefarious
11-19-2006, 6:33 AM
So who has emailed and reserved a spot in line?? Im still 50/50 on wanting one. Well more 60/40 now .. but man... did it have to come out now LMAO.
Also do you have to be somewhat carefull with the stock.. I mean 1 little screw for that long pice... I would think it would lossen a little after time

Chaingun
11-19-2006, 7:09 AM
I like the design and would consider one, but I still prefer just a grip not the entire stock. I can then use my own stock.

Tzvia
11-19-2006, 7:18 AM
Yeah, the thing I really noticed when holding it is that it's EASIER to hold the rifle level with one hand... So this next sentence is for the DOJ crew: This allows you to steady the rifle for EASIER one handed spraying of unlimited bullets without reloading!




Definitely.

It does not have the evil PISTOL GRIP which protrudes down from the receiver (doesn't anyone get it-it points to hell) and provides unlimited ammo for spraying innocent God fearing bystanders (making magazine changes a thing of history). So I think you will have to reload. Sorry.:rolleyes:

My only concern here deals with the torque placed on the screw hole area of the lower. That's a mighty long lever placed on that one screw. It wasn't designed for this kind of use. Is that the only attachment point? I don't see from the photos anything attaching it to the buffer tube area. Do the sides where it attaches provided lateral stability? Sorry if this has been covered already, too many posts to slog through right now.

Dont Tread on Me
11-19-2006, 8:23 AM
with this stock, can you indiscriminately fire the rifle one handed from the hip?!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

And I was about to nominate Toolbox X for a nobel peace prize for rendering the AR15 safe by removing the deadly spontaneous spraying baby killing pistol grip.

I am glad that this stock will still allow me to insert a 10 round magazine and then fire all day without reloading:) I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that DOJ officials can go on record talking absolute BS and still keep their jobs!

Scope
11-19-2006, 8:37 AM
Great! Let us all know when it becomes available for purchase.

patman
11-19-2006, 8:37 AM
I thought 'automatic' meant that you didn't have to aim, reload, or hold for the rifle to function? ;)

Nice job on design, kinda makes it look more like a 'space gun' and fits into my idea of high tech look!

...
I am glad that this stock will still allow me to insert a 10 round magazine an then fire all day without reloading:) ...

xenophobe
11-19-2006, 9:15 AM
My only concern here deals with the torque placed on the screw hole area of the lower. That's a mighty long lever placed on that one screw. It wasn't designed for this kind of use. Is that the only attachment point? I don't see from the photos anything attaching it to the buffer tube area. Do the sides where it attaches provided lateral stability? Sorry if this has been covered already, too many posts to slog through right now.

Look at it this way. The pistol mounting point on the receiver is at least 10x stronger than the thin receiver extension loop that frequently broke on M16A1 type receivers. On the A2, this area was strengthened, but is still a little thin ribbon of aluminum to hold the receiver extension. The pistol grip mounting point is perhaps the thickest and strongest area of the receiver.

Incitatus
11-19-2006, 9:21 AM
Just in time for my first AR.
Congratulations, and no: $185 it's not too much for your talent, hard work and creativity. I hope you will make a good return for your effort if the market demands a lot of your product.

C.G.
11-19-2006, 9:33 AM
Look at it this way. The pistol mounting point on the receiver is at least 10x stronger than the thin receiver extension loop that frequently broke on M16A1 type receivers. On the A2, this area was strengthened, but is still a little thin ribbon of aluminum to hold the receiver extension. The pistol grip mounting point is perhaps the thickest and strongest area of the receiver.

Xeno I think Tzvia meant that a single screw is probably not enough support for a lever and may break or at least have a tendency to back out.

HillBilly
11-19-2006, 10:01 AM
whats the deal with getting an od green or flat dark earth paintjob ? :D

shark92651
11-19-2006, 11:56 AM
Couldn't you just cut this off into a grip and use a Ace M4 SOCOM Modular Stock?

Wouldn't that be a telescoping stock and is therefore not allowed with an open mag well? If you just want a CA legal grip then the monsterman is still a valid choice. I really like the idea of this stock - anything and everything new that is going to help protect us from those evil plastic pistol grips is welcome in my book.

Joe
11-19-2006, 12:03 PM
How about using a u-15 like grip and this stock?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=760499

SemiAutoSam
11-19-2006, 12:03 PM
You mean because it still wouldn't be a pistol grip?

Then it would be a thicker version of the Shoeless ventures (Fab 10) and or Barrett style grip.

Would the Ace M4 stock make contact with this "Grip" ?

Couldn't you just cut this off into a grip and use a Ace M4 SOCOM Modular Stock?

Dont Tread on Me
11-19-2006, 12:52 PM
Just back from the Gun Exchange and checking out this stock.

Function
The stock provides excellent and I mean excellent control of the rifle. I could reach the trigger with both the pad of my finger and the first joint. Same story with the magazine release.

I could not reach the safety with my thumb. The stock provides such strong control with the right hand that I could easily bring my left hand back to operate it. The only right hand solution will be a safety with a much extended lever and I'm sure the market will provide that. You would still need to use the left hand to re-engage but you would have a fast disengage.

I think my CAR stock Blackhawlk sling can be adapted to fit this with some duct tape.

Form
The stock is very well made. A real quality job and fit. There is no wiggle at all. I would not worry about the leverage issue. Having looked the way the forces work, unless you are going the use the rifle as a crow bar you should not have any problems.

It also looks cool. Battlestar Galactica can drop the Berretta Storms and switch to this for a space aged look.

Xenophobe is a real gent BTW. Plenty of cool AR stuff in the store. It is worth visiting.

arguy15
11-19-2006, 2:52 PM
I am going to buy one.

Hopefully with this stock ARs will be as comon in gun shops as Mini 14s.

guimus
11-19-2006, 3:19 PM
Just checked it out at SJGE today, too. While not quite perfect, it's definitely worth 185 of my dollars. My fingers are long enough to drop the mag, but I still can't get to the selector switch with my shooting hand. The only problem I found is that my thickish thumb is smooshed up a bit between the stock/grip and the buffer tube.

Fjold
11-19-2006, 4:57 PM
Just checked it out at SJGE today, too. While not quite perfect, it's definitely worth 185 of my dollars. My fingers are long enough to drop the mag, but I still can't get to the selector switch with my shooting hand. The only problem I found is that my thickish thumb is smooshed up a bit between the stock/grip and the buffer tube.


That was my only concern, I'm going to look at one when Wes gets them in at TPF

PLINK
11-19-2006, 5:17 PM
Just checked it out at SJGE today, too. While not quite perfect, it's definitely worth 185 of my dollars. My fingers are long enough to drop the mag, but I still can't get to the selector switch with my shooting hand. The only problem I found is that my thickish thumb is smooshed up a bit between the stock/grip and the buffer tube.

Did the one at SJGE have the foam on the receiver extension? I held one without the foam and there is plenty of room for your thumb. So what I plan on doing is I am going to cut the foam length down about an inch and leave that space open for thumb room. Remember Tool X stated he is not installing the foam on the receiver extention. This will give the customer the option to do what they want with the foam.

Dont Tread on Me
11-19-2006, 5:32 PM
SJGE had foam on the buffer tube which made for a nice cheek weld.

stator
11-19-2006, 8:03 PM
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8914/u15shouldered2zd2.jpg


Yes, that is a thumbhole stock. The foam covering for the buffer tube and using it as a check rest proves that is is part of the stock.

This is a nice stock, but I seriously recommend anyone buying one to still use a maglock kit with a 10-round mag until the prerequisite letter comes in from the DOJ.

fun2none
11-19-2006, 8:47 PM
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8914/u15shouldered2zd2.jpg


Yes, that is a thumbhole stock. The foam covering for the buffer tube and using it as a check rest proves that is is part of the stock.

This is a nice stock, but I seriously recommend anyone buying one to still use a maglock kit with a 10-round mag until the prerequisite letter comes in from the DOJ.


I respectfully disagree. The buffer tube is a separate component from the stock.

In the mare's leg U15 stock, the buffer tube has a secondary function of a cheek rest. Its primary function is to contain the buffer, spring, and bolt carrier assembly under normal cycling.

Now, had the buffer tube and stock been connected, or attached, together I would agree that it meets the CA DOJ definition of thumbhole stock.

juha_teuvonnen
11-19-2006, 8:54 PM
Can we do away with the buffer tube completely, similar to this:

http://www.triplebreakproducts.com/images/TBP/mvc00013.jpg

If we remove the buffer tube and plug the rear, there is no way this U-15 is a thumbhole stock. Can anybody who knows AR-15s well tell me, what is needed to do away with the buffer tube, and what is the purpose of it? Perdon my ignorance, but I am not exactly familiar with AR-15. Even though I own 2 OLLs I have not built any yet. A combination of U-15 stock, open mag well and no buffer tube will do it for me.

GJJ
11-19-2006, 8:55 PM
Applying logic to this subject is futile. If the DOJ wants to keep messing with us, they will find a new way to define "thumbhole stock".

They did that with "fixed mag".

I hope the inventor of this product does not lose all his money. Any business built on the concept of a fair and consistent California justice system is way too risky.

PLINK
11-19-2006, 9:10 PM
Yes, that is a thumbhole stock. The foam covering for the buffer tube and using it as a check rest proves that is is part of the stock.

This is a nice stock, but I seriously recommend anyone buying one to still use a maglock kit with a 10-round mag until the prerequisite letter comes in from the DOJ.

The receiver extention is just that a receiver extention. If it was considered a stock then AR pistols would be SBR's (short barreled rifle).

PLINK
11-19-2006, 9:14 PM
Applying logic to this subject is futile. If the DOJ wants to keep messing with us, they will find a new way to define "thumbhole stock".

They did that with "fixed mag".

I hope the inventor of this product does not lose all his money. Any business built on the concept of a fair and consistent California justice system is way too risky.

It's not a thumb hole stock. It's a receiver extention and a non-pistol grip (according to the DOJ defination of pistol grip) w/ a butt plate attached.

blacklisted
11-19-2006, 9:42 PM
The receiver extention is just that a receiver extention. If it was considered a stock then AR pistols would be SBR's (short barreled rifle).

Yes, just as I said before. The receiver extension is part of the action, not of the stock! Just because you can put your cheek on it does not make it so, You could put your cheek on the receiver extension of an AR pistol if you were crazy enough to do so.

JPglee1
11-19-2006, 9:49 PM
You could put your cheek on the receiver extension of an AR pistol if you were crazy enough to do so.

LOL, take the stock off an M4 sometime (slide it off) and shoot it with a cheekweld, its 100% mild and do-able.

People don't show pictures, but Ive seen more than 1 dude shooting a pistol with the buffer tube shoved in his shoulder as a stock with a "nose/charging handle weld"

Anyway, its far from abusive with recoil shooting a "pistol" with your face on the buffer tube.


As far as removing the tube, you need to re-engineer the recoil spring system to be a "pull" spring from the front side, or from above (like the OA-93)


JP

tenpercentfirearms
11-19-2006, 9:52 PM
They did that with "fixed mag".
No actually they have not. They are trying to, but until the regulations successfully go through, you are seeing that the DOJ does have limits on their powers and so far they are playing catch up to us. They will be playing catch up on this one too. They just need to give up and list.

JesseXXX
11-19-2006, 10:25 PM
okay..... I'm in....:D

Dont Tread on Me
11-19-2006, 10:45 PM
DOJ definition (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf?PHPSESSID=ac386f9b9d307fab5009112b5f b9a261) of a thumb hole stock is

"thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand into or through the stock while firing.

Does the buffer tube count as a component of the stock? That is a question that is open to interpretation and you know which way the DOJ will try to go. My guess is that the DOJ will claim that this is a thumb hole stock and it will be up to a judge to decide what a "stock" is.

I can see the DOJ clambering for words for a future clarification "anything sticking out the back of the rifle is part of the stock".

Charliegone
11-19-2006, 11:09 PM
If the stock were connected to the tube, I would consider it a thumbhole stock, but by the looks of it, it is NOT. Therefore, my assesment is it isn't a thumbhole stock. IF the doj tries to pull something, they will probably be in a world of s***. If I'm correct, federal law says something very different...in fact I think they completely removed the definition of "thumbhole stock" and just use pistol grip. Man....this can get very complicated. I don't think, anyways, the DOJ will try anything, Bill's on his way out anyways.

JPglee1
11-19-2006, 11:28 PM
Why not just make a clamp that goes around the tube and weld a "bracket" to it that runs down to the stock, so your thumb can't wrap around it anymore....You'd have to use a tool (allen wrench?) to take the "clamp/bracket" off so it would definitely be 100% legal.

I dunno all this concern, I shoot many legal OLLs with friends, gripless, all the time. Once you learn "the trick" you can shoot and reload just as fast and accurate as an AR w/a pistol grip.


*hint* learn to shoot with your MIDDLE finger on the trigger. On the last shot, hold the trigger down and don't release it, now use your INDEX finger to drop the mag, reinsert new mag, let go of trigger, hit bolt release and rock-n-roll.

Takes a little practice, but once you try it, you can hold a 16" barrel gun no problem to do a mag change....try it with a dry/dead weapon sometime. While you're squeezing the trigger your hand is holding the gun very tightly, kinda pinch the receiver above where the PG would go (where the radius is)

Ive never shot with an SRB so it might not work with one of those. Everyone I know just takes the safety out.


JP


JP

arguy15
11-19-2006, 11:29 PM
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8914/u15shouldered2zd2.jpg


Yes, that is a thumbhole stock. The foam covering for the buffer tube and using it as a check rest proves that is is part of the stock.

This is a nice stock, but I seriously recommend anyone buying one to still use a maglock kit with a 10-round mag until the prerequisite letter comes in from the DOJ.
No, that is not a thumbhole stock. The foam covering for the buffer tube and just that, a buffer tube. Ar pistols have buffer tube and they are not concidered a stock or part of a stock.

It all goes back to first grade! Is there a hole in this letter "O"? yes there is. How about this one "U"? no. A "U" has no hole an "O" does. There is no hole, just a "U"

This is a nice stock. Use it with no mag-lock!

JPglee1
11-19-2006, 11:31 PM
This is a nice stock. Use it with no mag-lock!

I dig the concept, but its kinda LONNNNGGGG...

Anyway we can get one thats as long as a CAR-15 stock in the middle positon??

OR at least a couple inches shorter than that???


JP

Crazed_SS
11-20-2006, 2:05 AM
Hmm.. I'd be interested maybe if it was blessed from the DOJ

ts
11-20-2006, 3:03 AM
I am willing to bet the DOJ will not approve this. I give you props for your design.

tenpercentfirearms
11-20-2006, 6:06 AM
Hmm.. I'd be interested maybe if it was blessed from the DOJ
So I take it you only have a stripped receiver so far and don't have a fixed magazine kit, MonsterMan Grip, or anything else for the California market as you wait for the "blessings" of the DOJ? :rolleyes:

Chaingun
11-20-2006, 7:39 AM
DOJ definition (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/chapter39.pdf?PHPSESSID=ac386f9b9d307fab5009112b5f b9a261) of a thumb hole stock is

"thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand into or through the stock while firing.

Does the buffer tube count as a component of the stock? That is a question that is open to interpretation and you know which way the DOJ will try to go. My guess is that the DOJ will claim that this is a thumb hole stock and it will be up to a judge to decide what a "stock" is.

I can see the DOJ clambering for words for a future clarification "anything sticking out the back of the rifle is part of the stock".

Part of the thumb-hole stock requirement is that the web of the hand falls below the imaginary line. With this stock it rests above the line. You can have a thumb-hole stock given it follows the non-pistol grip definition.

The DOJ blessing would consist of not approving it, but instead stating "one of the 58 DAs could consider it a non-approved stock"

stator
11-20-2006, 7:40 AM
No, that is not a thumbhole stock. The foam covering for the buffer tube and just that, a buffer tube. Ar pistols have buffer tube and they are not concidered a stock or part of a stock.

It all goes back to first grade! Is there a hole in this letter "O"? yes there is. How about this one "U"? no. A "U" has no hole an "O" does. There is no hole, just a "U"

This is a nice stock. Use it with no mag-lock!

I can appreciate everyone's hope for a great solution to SB23, but the buffer tube is part of the stock. Certainly in this picture, that guy's cheek is pressed up against it which is a function of a stock.

A similar design was presented to the DOJ about 6 years ago. DOJ denied it saying it was essentially a thumbhole stock configuration even though these are two separate pieces. The DOJ considers the buffer tube as part of the stock in a AR-type design. I believed that it was not but a part inside of the stock. However, that picture proves the DOJ's point.

The only solution I've seen so far that has wings is the another member's use of a shotgun stock and a modified rat-tail on the carrier.

stator
11-20-2006, 7:44 AM
Part of the thumb-hole stock requirement is that the web of the hand falls below the imaginary line. With this stock it rests above the line. You can have a thumb-hole stock given it follows the non-pistol grip definition.

The DOJ blessing would consist of not approving it, but instead stating "one of the 58 DAs could consider it a non-approved stock"

This is not true, a thumbhole stock is a distinctly banned feature by SB23. A thumbhole stock on a rifle capable of accepting a detachable mag and uses centerfire cartridges will get one in the pookey.

Note lines (A) and (B):

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.

Dont Tread on Me
11-20-2006, 7:44 AM
Part of the thumb-hole stock requirement is that the web of the hand falls below the imaginary line. With this stock it rests above the line. You can have a thumb-hole stock given it follows the non-pistol grip definition.

Can you post a link to this definition please? I searched the DOJ hard last night and posted what I could find. It would be really helpful if you can point to text that includes this additional condition.

Dont Tread on Me
11-20-2006, 7:52 AM
There is another way to look at this (just thinking out loud).

The buffer tube is the stock as it goes into the hole designed for the stock. The Toolbox X thing is a grip as it goes into the hole designed for the grip. There is no thumb in the stock then.

You can bet the DOJ will try to take the worst interpretation possible. Hell, I bet they will claim that the foam makes it a folding stock. I think talking about AR pistols is mute as the DOJ considers them evil things that just don't exist within the bounds of CA.

ChrisSig
11-20-2006, 7:52 AM
If the buffer tube is considered part of the stock, how are pistol AR's legal (at least, in the states where they are legal)? You can have a non-short-barrel-rifle AR pistol with a foam cover on the buffer tube.

m1371
11-20-2006, 8:05 AM
I can appreciate everyone's hope for a great solution to SB23, but the buffer tube is part of the stock. Certainly in this picture, that guy's cheek is pressed up against it which is a function of a stock.

A similar design was presented to the DOJ about 6 years ago. DOJ denied it saying it was essentially a thumbhole stock configuration even though these are two separate pieces. The DOJ considers the buffer tube as part of the stock in a AR-type design. I believed that it was not but a part inside of the stock. However, that picture proves the DOJ's point.

The only solution I've seen so far that has wings is the another member's use of a shotgun stock and a modified rat-tail on the carrier.

You're bringing up a valid point with the part about cheekweld on the buffer tube, but you're also not acknowledging that the other function of a stock is to provide support to the weapon while it is being fired. The buffer tube in this instance obviously doesn't do this.

Will the DOJ do their damnedest to muddle up the issue? Redefine "thumbhole stock"? Come up with some asinine definition of "stock" so it fits their agenda? Or just simply pass the buck to the 58 DAs?

I'd be willing to say "Yes" to any and/or all of the above.

I doubt Toolbox is prepared to chuck everything out the window just yet. There's nothing wrong with taking an opposing view on things in order to get a different perspective.

But I think that even though a similar design may have been presented years back there's no reason to stop trying. It looks like a viable design that has taken into account the regulations that have been designed as obstacles for us.

Toolbox X
11-20-2006, 8:13 AM
I can appreciate everyone's hope for a great solution to SB23, but the buffer tube is part of the stock. Certainly in this picture, that guy's cheek is pressed up against it which is a function of a stock.

Man, that's a bummer.
Someone better contact RRA and tell them all those AR pistols they are selling are really Short Barrelled Rifles and they have committed a few thousand NFA violations. :)

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/larp223.gif

A stock is not defined as "something you rest your cheek on. If that were the case all those RRA AR pistols really would be SBR's.

A stock is something you push up against your shoulder to give you an additional point of stabilization.

For example, don't put one of these on your Glock and expect to tell the ATF agent who is arresting you for possession of an SBR, "It is not a stock because you can't rest your cheek on it."

http://www.ccfa.com/Pages/Images/Glock/Glock%20folding%20stock%20extended.JPG

tenpercentfirearms
11-20-2006, 8:15 AM
The buffer tube is the stock as it goes into the hole designed for the stock. The Toolbox X thing is a grip as it goes into the hole designed for the grip. There is no thumb in the stock then.
If it were me, I would just call this the U-15 grip. It attaches where the pistol grip goes, but it does not meet the definition of a pistol grip, so it is just the U-15 Grip. Plain and simple. You can't say it is a thumbhole stock if it is A) not a stock and B) doesn't have a hole for a thumb.

After we see the next rule change get shot down and they make their third try, I am sure they will "clarify" what a thumbhole stock is and I am sure the U-15 will be covered in this "clarification". Adn we will keep playing this game until the DOJ just gives us and goes after real criminals.

JPglee1
11-20-2006, 8:23 AM
Man, that's a bummer.
Someone better contact RRA and tell them all those AR pistols they are selling are really Short Barrelled Rifles and they have committed a few thousand NFA violations. :)

http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/larp223.gif


Ive often wondered how its legal, cuz its more than possible and comfortable to shoot with a buffer tube shoved in your shoulder as a stock. With the .223 the recoil is so mild it doesn't hurt (I tried it on a full size M4 w/the stock slipped off cuz Id been dying to know if it worked or not and on a full length tube it would be even easier) With a foam covered tube, even more so...The foam is basically "admitting" yer intended to put your face on the tube...


JP

Wulf
11-20-2006, 8:24 AM
Adn we will keep playing this game until the DOJ just gives us and goes after real criminals.

:eek: What! And risk making sombody mad that has a gun AND the propensity to use it violently? That sounds like not just work but dangerous work.

m1371
11-20-2006, 8:33 AM
There is another way to look at this (just thinking out loud).

The buffer tube is the stock as it goes into the hole designed for the stock. The Toolbox X thing is a grip as it goes into the hole designed for the grip. There is no thumb in the stock then.

You can bet the DOJ will try to take the worst interpretation possible. Hell, I bet they will claim that the foam makes it a folding stock. I think talking about AR pistols is mute as the DOJ considers them evil things that just don't exist within the bounds of CA.

The only thing is, that threaded hole on the back of the lower receiver isn't designed or intended for a buttstock of any sort. It's meant to attach the buffer tube (receiver extension), not a butt stock. Even if you look at numerous collapsible stocks made by various manufacturers, there is a distinction made between the receiver extension assembly and the actual buttstock assembly itself.

I think that the point Toolbox made about RRA's pistol ARs is a valid one. If the BATF has acknowledged that the buffer tube is not a stock, the CA DOJ would look pretty stupid trying to bring their so-called "experts" in to argue against that established ruling.

MonsterMan
11-20-2006, 9:06 AM
Part of the thumb-hole stock requirement is that the web of the hand falls below the imaginary line. With this stock it rests above the line. You can have a thumb-hole stock given it follows the non-pistol grip definition.

The DOJ blessing would consist of not approving it, but instead stating "one of the 58 DAs could consider it a non-approved stock"


There is no "imaginary line" on a thumbhole stock.

"Thumbhole stock means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock."

That is all that defines a "thumbhole stock". If this is considered a stock for the simple fact that you shoulder it to stabilize and fire your weapon, not where it attaches on the rifle, then you might be outta luck. There is nothing in the regulation "definition" that states that it has to be a "hole" just that your thumb penetrates into or through the "stock". I know it says "hole" in the name "thumbhole" but we are not dealing with a reasonable organization. They will just read you back the definition which does not mention "hole".

My personal opinion is it looks like a fine piece of equipment and you will not likely get a DOJ approval on it. "It will be up to the 58 DA's and it is up to people to use at there own legal peril" type of deal I bet.

With all of our inventions and what not trying to work with the law to stay "legal", we all who buy them must read the law, understand it and decide if we feel comfortable with it on our rifle.

Good work though, I think it is awesome. I hope it all goes smoothly.
I am not trying say anything bad about the U-15. I am happy that we are getting more options for us Californian's with our OLL's. I am just skeptical of our govt types on what they will and won't go after.

MM

gose
11-20-2006, 9:46 AM
Why not just make a clamp that goes around the tube and weld a "bracket" to it that runs down to the stock, so your thumb can't wrap around it anymore....You'd have to use a tool (allen wrench?) to take the "clamp/bracket" off so it would definitely be 100% legal.

I dunno all this concern, I shoot many legal OLLs with friends, gripless, all the time. Once you learn "the trick" you can shoot and reload just as fast and accurate as an AR w/a pistol grip.

*hint* learn to shoot with your MIDDLE finger on the trigger. On the last shot, hold the trigger down and don't release it, now use your INDEX finger to drop the mag, reinsert new mag, let go of trigger, hit bolt release and rock-n-roll.
Takes a little practice, but once you try it, you can hold a 16" barrel gun no problem to do a mag change....try it with a dry/dead weapon sometime. While you're squeezing the trigger your hand is holding the gun very tightly, kinda pinch the receiver above where the PG would go (where the radius is)
Ive never shot with an SRB so it might not work with one of those. Everyone I know just takes the safety out.

JP

You're actually recommending people to do reloads with their finger on the trigger? I'm sorry, but that has to be one of the worst pieces of advice I've seen in a very very long time.
Tell people to buy a monsterman or U15 grip instead of advocating bad behavior!
Reloading with your finger on the trigger would be considered unsafe behavior in most places and surely will get you disqualified from any serious rifle competition/event.

And to stay on topic.. the stock looks great. need to head down to SJGE and take a look.

Toolbox X
11-20-2006, 9:55 AM
"Thumbhole stock means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock."

That is all that defines a "thumbhole stock". If this is considered a stock for the simple fact that you shoulder it to stabilize and fire your weapon, not where it attaches on the rifle, then you might be outta luck. There is nothing in the regulation "definition" that states that it has to be a "hole" just that your thumb penetrates into or through the "stock". I know it says "hole" in the name "thumbhole" but we are not dealing with a reasonable organization. They will just read you back the definition which does not mention "hole".

MM

It does specifically say a thumbhole stock must have a hole.

From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf
"thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

I challenge anyone to find a hole in the U-15 stock.

MonsterMan
11-20-2006, 10:00 AM
It does specifically say a thumbhole stock must have a hole.

From http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/sb23.pdf
"thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

I challenge anyone to find a hole in the U-15 stock.


My bad, I was looking at the doj regulation page with proposed reg changes which was before they added "hole" when they put that one through. It does say "hole" in the final definition. I agree that your stock is fine, it's like I said, I never know what they will go after next.

Sorry :(

MM

Cobrarlc
11-20-2006, 10:17 AM
Great to see that the homework was done on this one. This is a great opportunity for the law abiding gun owners of California. Best of luck with the new company.

chiefcrash
11-20-2006, 10:35 AM
as far as the hole "thumbhole" discussion goes, from first glance i could see where one of the 58 DA's will consider that buffer tube as part of the stock, and consider buffer tube + u15 = thumbhole stock...

just my $0.02

AxonGap
11-20-2006, 11:12 AM
I'm glad to see that someone took that concept and ran w/ it! Awesome design and execution on this one!! (innovation in action) :)

If the design ever get's shot-down by the DOJ because of the thumb issue, just merge the buffer tube and you still have an excellent product!

guimus
11-20-2006, 11:57 AM
I'd love to have the DOJ consider this a thumbhole stock and start arresting. As long as a halfway decent attorney was involved, they'd be hard pressed to convince ANY twelve people that they know more about firearms than the ATF experts who are called in to testify. Every new innovation we come up with is a step toward invalidating all of the CA AW laws as ridiculous and useless.

Satex
11-20-2006, 12:05 PM
I challenge anyone to find a hole in the U-15 stock.

Sure, but Toolbox, does it "have the capacity" to accept a "hole"? ;)
And, is the "capacity" "permanent"? ;)
:D

surprised
11-20-2006, 12:58 PM
[Sorry if this is posted twice. I had trouble posting earlier.]

I believe the stock meets both the letter and the intent of the regulations.

The originally proposed regulation (by the DOJ, in 2000), stated:

"thumbhole stock" means any stock with any opening that enables the firearm to be grasped, controlled, and fired with one hand.

The final proposal after the comment period for the above (and current regulation) states:

"thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

Note the change from "any stock with any opening..." to "a stock with a hole...". I believe the U-15 has an opening, but not a thumbhole.

Also, the original text may (or may not) explain the reason for the objection to thumbholes, which is a mystery to me. (But note that the restriction on thumbholes came from the legislature, not the DOJ, so it's hard to tell what they were thinking.)

I'm voting my opinion by purchasing one.

bwiese
11-20-2006, 2:25 PM
I have held such a stock on an off-list rifle this Saturday at SJGE.

I believe this is clearly legal on a semiauto centerfire rifle with detachable magazines with both the letter and spirit of the law and associated regulatory definitions. Not even a bit of 'tortured' wordplay contrary to prior written statements, like what DOJ's trying to do with 'detachable magazine', is remotely possible.

Let's examine the situation:

Calif. Code of Regulation section 5469 contains:

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip
that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb
and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

(e) "thumbhole stock" means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to
penetrate into or through the stock while firing.


This stock does not have anything approaching 12276.1/5469 pistol grip, because in this particular design, the "web of the hand" is placed substantially above the top of the exposed trigger. Even though one might envision a "pistol style grasp" using this device, the fact that the web is considerably above the exposed portion of the top of the trigger makes "pistol grasp" concept immaterial to legality.

Again in this particular design, even somebody with "fat hands" is still in legal compliance.

[If you recall discussion the special spur grip sold by the FAB10/Shoeless Ventures folks, you might remember my worries about this and why I cautioned folks to run, not walk away from that product - esp as it was originally designed in mind of the now-expired Federal AWB compliance for flash-hider guns, and not with the separate, current California ban.]

Also, this is not a thumbhole stock. THIS STOCK DOES NOT HAVE A HOLE.

A hole is "inside", and the contours of this stock are not closed - topologically, it's a "simple closed curve". In fact, the contours of this stock are, topologically, all on its "outside". That ain't a "hole", folks.

A hole is what's on my face that I shove pie & roast beef into, and with which I excoriate gun grabbers. To assert the contours of Toolbox_X's stock forms a (thumb)hole is akin to saying the shape of my body is the shape of my mouth! (Well, yes, both are large, but... ;) )

A home run to ToolBox X (Grant).

I honestly doubt if DOJ'll give an approval or denial letter now, esp with all the OLL activity this year.

Also, it appears that some/many/all DOJ 'approval' analyses & letters of various gun styles and devices may have been performed by line staff without legal oversight. A DOJ letter signed by someone like Iggy or other minion may thus well be moot, especially given his "expert" record in court. (He does know a lot about the mahogany hunting season, though.)

Any local charges/defense around OLL configurations will, since DOJ has abandoned & mismanaged its regulatory duties (and is, perversely, focusing on weird fine print about fixed magazines) will revolve around specific wording of the law and supporting regulatory code.

There's ZERO way the DOJ can "clarify' this without creating an AW transition.

Some DOJ staff probably now have square intestines now from s***ting bricks.

Bravissimo!

Ironwood Designs
11-20-2006, 2:27 PM
I think Grant hit it on the head. We had discussed the "thumbhole" in the past. And we both came to the conclusion that the U-15 was not a thumbhole stock because it does not have a "hole" that the thumb passes through. After seeing the link to the definition of a thumbhole stock, listing "hole", in quotes, I can't see how that can call it a thumbhole stock. There is no hole or passage through the stock. True, the thumb passes below the buffer, but does not pass through a passage or hole in the actual stock.

If they are concerned about one handed firing, then the mini-14 and the M-1A should be in the past features ban.

Buffer tube is the buffer tube, and the stock is a seperate entitiy. it does allow a grasp, but the grasp abides by the deifinitions stated in the DOJ definitions regarding the web of the fingers positioning. I think a strong case can be made that because the tube and stock do not connect, or enclose the area below the buffer tube, it is not a thumbhole stock.

Anyway, my 2 cents.

Matt,
www.Ironwooddesigns.com

bwiese
11-20-2006, 2:36 PM
Buffer tube is the buffer tube, and the stock is a seperate entity. it does allow a grasp, but the grasp abides by the deifinitions stated in the DOJ definitions regarding the web of the fingers positioning. I think a strong case can be made that because the tube and stock do not connect, or enclose the area below the buffer tube, it is not a thumbhole stock.

Matt,

Well, the tube might be argued as part of the stock because you can cheek up to it.

However, that argument is moot because THERE IS NO THUMBHOLE, and because THERE IS NO WEB-OF-HAND GRIP BELOW TOP OF TRIGGER.

QED, it's legal.

Go sell 'em, boys...

Dont Tread on Me
11-20-2006, 2:40 PM
Bill - I think the DOJ will claim that the buffer tube and Toolbox widget together form the stock. I don't agree with that but I'm pro gun. They are anti gun and see the world thorough different color glasses to us.

CA need a process for confirming if something satisfies the laws other than waiting for some poor shooter to get arrested and dragged through the legal system.

ChrisSig
11-20-2006, 2:49 PM
Just to clarify - is the top of the stock below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger? I'm sure it is, based on what you've said, but from the photos it looks mighty close.

bwiese
11-20-2006, 2:50 PM
Bill - I think the DOJ will claim that the buffer tube and Toolbox widget together form the stock. I don't agree with that but I'm pro gun. They are anti gun and see the world thorough different color glasses to us.

Well, their supposed nonpolitical leadership certainly has a non-civil-service political agenda.

However, in this specific case, with the statutory law and regulatory law being specific, this stock clearly does NOT comply with either (1) thubhole stock definition or (2) "pistol grip protruding below the..." definition.

They can't game this language with any 'clarification' or expect it to get thru OAL.


CA need a process for confirming if something satisfies the laws other than waiting for some poor shooter to get arrested and dragged through the legal system.

Yeah, but that's really the way things get settled.

Fortunately we have REALLY PLAIN LANGUAGE in the regulatory code helping us.

Unfazed
11-20-2006, 2:52 PM
I would also agree that this stock meets the legal requirements to not be considered a thumbhole, however, I remembered this being discussed back in May in the "new grip idea" thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=34022&page=3) and i thought Matt at Ironwood already submitted the design to the DoJ and they ruled it a thumbhole stock? Either way ill be ordering one as it is a great design.


Hey guys, Matt from Ironwood Designs here.

I am a stock manufacturer here in San Jose, CA. I posted a while back on one of the "alternative grip" threads. I was contacted by one of the guys on on the forum about a stock design he had.

I took a look at his design, and we decided to build a prototype. All of the criteria were met regarding the grip restrictions. it did not protrude below the receiver, the web uf the thumb and forefinger were well above the exposed top of the trigger, and it was not a thumbhole, or so we thought.

The stock was mounted on a bracket, that mounted where the pistol grip normally goes. The bracket protruded rearward, parallel with the buffer tube. The stock mounted to the bracket. The stock was cutaway below the collapsible stock buffer tube, which was exposed, and was meant to be the cheak piece.

The stock then trailed up, behind, but not connected or touching the buffer tube. Technically not a thumbhole. It looked pretty good for a prototype stock, and with a few mods, would have been a really nice design.

We submitted it to DOJ, and if you haven't guessed, Iggy turned it down because it was declared a thunbhole stock. It only yook a week and a half to get the bad news.

The reason I am posting again is due to the constant discussion on the grip issue. I think the only type that will fly will be the "Tumor" type plastic bolt on.

Gunsrruss
11-20-2006, 3:03 PM
Matt and Grant....Please don't sell all these the first day in Costa Mesa. I'm driving up from San Diego to the gun show just to fondel your invention. I don't want to get there and find out that the rest of the crowd has come in wet themselves and bought up all the inventory. I want to touch this thing.

I really think you have done it. Unfortunately the DOJ will probably list now so they can get the money and keep track of all those OLL. That way they can spin it so they look like heros. Anyway you look at it you two guys have saved us RPK gun owners. I hope you make millions. Good Luck
Russ

m1371
11-20-2006, 3:08 PM
I think the DOJ will claim that the buffer tube and Toolbox widget together form the stock.

Yeah and the DOJ can claim that Iggster is familiar with safe weapons handling procedures, too. :p

Toolbox's "widget" is clearly a stock, only with an entirely separate attachment point than the conventional AR series allows.

The buffer tube provides zero support of the weapon against the shoulder when it is being fired. That is the primary function of the buttstock of a rifle. Heck, I can fire my rifle with my face cheekwelded against the forward handguards. That doesn't mean it's suddenly a stock because I've got my face pressed up against it. :cool:

The two pieces are entirely separate and do not contact one another at any point. As BillW stated, there is no hole through anything. If there's no hole for the thumb to protrude through, how can it be a thumbhole stock?

I'm personally of the opinion that the DOJ will cop out on this.

gose
11-20-2006, 3:11 PM
So what was changed in this design compared to the design you submitted to the DOJ?

"The stock I submitted to DOJ had a gap between the buffer tube and the actual stock, just like the break between the grip and tube in the image from Axon, v4b. DOJ still declared it a thumbhole. I think their twisted logic is that any gap that allows the thumb to pass through it is in their eyes, a thumbhole."
"The stock was submitted directly to Iggy Chin, with documentation pointing out all of the evil grip features that were not present in our design.
1 1/2 weeks after submittal, parts returned with letter declaring thumbhole status."

Unfazed
11-20-2006, 3:23 PM
So the DoJ did write you back in May and state that even with the buffer tube not connected to the stock it would still be considered a thumbhole? Or did they give you another it will be up to the discretion of the DAs line? I apologize for bringing quotes from such an old thread but just want to clarify any responses you may have received back from our "friends" at the DoJ regarding the seperate buffer tube issue.

The stock I submitted was similar in it's layout, with the buffer tube not connected to the stock. It was still declared a thumbhole.

As mentioned in the other post, anything that allows the grasp action will probably not be considered OK.

Thanks,
Matt
IWD

GJJ
11-20-2006, 3:36 PM
This stock is not a thumbhole stock. It meets the letter of the law. But, my fixed 10 round mag meets the letter of the law too. And, we all know how the DOJ feels about that.

You guys are missing the big picture. There are two things we have to be worried about:

1. What the cop that stops us thinks of our weapon.

My opinion is that ANY variation of an OLL AR style rifle will be judged by the officer on the scene based on his hatred/non-hatred for guns. It is a crap shoot. This stock will not gain any more of an advantage over having a bolted in magazine. If the cop hates guns, or if the cop is ignorant, you will have problems.

2. What the court decides once we are charged.

This stock or a fixed magazine AR will both be determined to be legal after a lot of agony and money spent on lawyers.

blacklisted
11-20-2006, 3:40 PM
This stock is not a thumbhole stock. It meets the letter of the law. But, my fixed 10 round mag meets the letter of the law too. And, we all know how the DOJ feels about that.

You guys are missing the big picture. There are two things we have to be worried about:

1. What the cop that stops us thinks of our weapon.

My opinion is that ANY variation of an OLL AR style rifle will be judged by the officer on the scene based on his hatred/non-hatred for guns. It is a crap shoot. This stock will not gain any more of an advantage over having a bolted in magazine. If the cop hates guns, or if the cop is ignorant, you will have problems.

2. What the court decides once we are charged.

This stock or a fixed magazine AR will both be determined to be legal after a lot of agony and money spent on lawyers.

The same can be said for many legal guns. If I was afraid of ignorant cops, I wouldn't leave my house, let alone go shooting (and that goes for any type of gun I use!).

Ironwood Designs
11-20-2006, 3:58 PM
Fazed,
After re-reading the definition of a thumbhole stock, I don't think they can declare the new design as such.

Matt
www.Ironwooddesigns.com

Nile
11-20-2006, 4:01 PM
If I hold my Springfield M1A along side of your stock, they look the same! Great idea/work.
Thanks, Nile.

bu-bye
11-20-2006, 4:05 PM
This stock is not a thumbhole stock. It meets the letter of the law. But, my fixed 10 round mag meets the letter of the law too. And, we all know how the DOJ feels about that.

You guys are missing the big picture. There are two things we have to be worried about:

1. What the cop that stops us thinks of our weapon.

My opinion is that ANY variation of an OLL AR style rifle will be judged by the officer on the scene based on his hatred/non-hatred for guns. It is a crap shoot. This stock will not gain any more of an advantage over having a bolted in magazine. If the cop hates guns, or if the cop is ignorant, you will have problems.

2. What the court decides once we are charged.

This stock or a fixed magazine AR will both be determined to be legal after a lot of agony and money spent on lawyers.


While i agree with you here i do have to make one point. At some point with the tens of thousands of OLL in this state they will figure it out. I'm sure a lot more people will be wrongfully charged but you have to think about what best for the group. Sometimes it takes time for things to be excepted. I really see the next couple years changing for the better. At some point LEO's will "get" this whole thing. We just have to stick to our guns and let them know that we are not going to roll over and die. they wrote the law and we are following the law to the letter. They gave us the guidelines to work within and that is just what we are all doing. First came my SRB, then came the Monsterman grip, then came the U-15 and we will soon have our very own CAli AR receiver (BSR-15 and BSR-10). As time goes on we are better understanding the law and making better products. I can't wait to see whats coming next.

Hunter
11-20-2006, 4:08 PM
Fazed,
After re-reading the definition of a thumbhole stock, I don't think they can declare the new design as such.

Matt
www.Ironwooddesigns.com


But didn't they (DOJ) already do that in May, ie declare that is was? I'm a little confused here.

gose
11-20-2006, 4:15 PM
This stock is not a thumbhole stock. It meets the letter of the law. But, my fixed 10 round mag meets the letter of the law too. And, we all know how the DOJ feels about that.
You guys are missing the big picture. There are two things we have to be worried about:
1. What the cop that stops us thinks of our weapon.
My opinion is that ANY variation of an OLL AR style rifle will be judged by the officer on the scene based on his hatred/non-hatred for guns. It is a crap shoot. This stock will not gain any more of an advantage over having a bolted in magazine. If the cop hates guns, or if the cop is ignorant, you will have problems.
2. What the court decides once we are charged.
This stock or a fixed magazine AR will both be determined to be legal after a lot of agony and money spent on lawyers.

Well, MY problem is that I wouldn't feel too good about putting a stock on my rifle that meets the letter of the law when there might be a letter out there with another interpretation. If I get arrested with an OLL the situation will be painful enough without the DA waving a paper in my face saying that the DOJ replied in May, saying the stock was illegal.

Matt: Can you please clarify the differences between the old and the new design?

AxonGap
11-20-2006, 4:21 PM
So what was changed in this design compared to the design you submitted to the DOJ?

"The stock I submitted to DOJ had a gap between the buffer tube and the actual stock, just like the break between the grip and tube in the image from Axon, v4b. DOJ still declared it a thumbhole. I think their twisted logic is that any gap that allows the thumb to pass through it is in their eyes, a thumbhole."
"The stock was submitted directly to Iggy Chin, with documentation pointing out all of the evil grip features that were not present in our design.
1 1/2 weeks after submittal, parts returned with letter declaring thumbhole status."

This is the one I posted a few months ago (V4b) per the above quote:


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/UndersK0R_2006/CalGns/AxonGap_Mod_v4b.jpg

MonsterMan
11-20-2006, 4:47 PM
If you go to "Dictionary.com" and type in "hole", this is the first thing that shows up:

1. an opening through something; gap; aperture: a hole in the roof; a hole in my sock.

I wonder how they would interpret "an opening through something" and "gap"?

Just food for thought.

Also how different was your design that you submitted to the doj that they said was a thumbhole stock? Can you post pics?


MM

JPglee1
11-20-2006, 5:10 PM
This is the one I posted a few months ago (V4b) per the above quote:


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k4/UndersK0R_2006/CalGns/AxonGap_Mod_v4b.jpg


The difference here is that the part you shoulder and the part you grab are 2 different parts.

The U15 stock has it all integrated in 1 part.

IMHO the Axon is a thumbhole, BUT I think its still legal because it has the web above the top of the trigger.

If I have my index fingers removed, can I have a lower grip since the web of my hand will be approx 10mm lower :rolleyes: :D


JP

Kenshin
11-20-2006, 5:19 PM
The only question left is: this or the BSR-15? :D :D :D

bu-bye
11-20-2006, 5:54 PM
The only question left is: this or the BSR-15? :D :D :D

WRONG! The correct gunlovers answer would be....BOTH:D

Shane916
11-20-2006, 6:14 PM
:D If you go to "Dictionary.com" and type in "hole", this is the first thing that shows up:

1. an opening through something; gap; aperture: a hole in the roof; a hole in my sock.

I wonder how they would interpret "an opening through something" and "gap"?

MM

it also states:

- an opening into or through something
- an unoccupied space
- a depression hollowed out of solid matter

blacklisted
11-20-2006, 6:28 PM
:D

it also states:

- an opening into or through something
- an unoccupied space
- a depression hollowed out of solid matter

The stock itself does not have a hole in it. The space around it is open space, not a hole.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/ebolamonkey/hole.jpg

^joke

paradox
11-20-2006, 6:56 PM
If the DOJ wants to play hardball, we'll get a math geek to testify and teach the court topography. This stock is a circle not a torus thus has no holes (technically it is a torus, but the mounting hole is filled by a screw prior to use).

Barry Gannaway
11-20-2006, 7:11 PM
I agree that the buffer tube can't be included as part of the stocks design. If this were not true then the AR-15 type pistol would have to be classified as a short barrel rifle.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az9-c15p21s.asp :D

MonsterMan
11-20-2006, 7:14 PM
I agree that the buffer tube can't be included as part of the stocks design. If this were not true then the AR-15 type pistol would have to be classified as a short barrel rifle.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/Carbon15/az9-c15p21s.asp :D

I agree.

MM

PLINK
11-20-2006, 9:04 PM
This is why it is not a thumb hole stock. Let's take the buffer tube (receiver extention) out of the picture.

1. Buy the U-15 and attach some kind of cheek rest (tools and materials required) towards the butt end.
2. Buy a piston upper from POF or ZM (these do not require the buffer, buffer extention or spring).
3. Put an ACE block off plate in the receiver extention hole.

Is this a thumb hole stock? NO

Would this be expensive? YES

*****Who ever makes and sells this idea, I want a Free piston upper and the stock. Thanks

ivanimal
11-20-2006, 9:14 PM
OK i'll bite I can be in Sacramento tomorrow, I have cash, check, credit, Paypal or IOU whichever you take. PM sent. let me know where to go.;)

Toolbox X
11-20-2006, 10:35 PM
Everyone who buys a U-15 stock, Monster Man grip, or SRB knows there is no DOJ approval.

I sent Iggy our first prototype back in April. It had a lot less space between the receiver extension and top of the stock. That was one of the areas Matt and I redesigned. We increased the distance between the stock and the receiver extension as much as possible so it would be blatently obvious that the receiver extension and stock are two completely seperate entities. Designing the U-15 required 5 more prototypes after the one that was submitted.

I highly encourage everyone to read, understand and learn the laws regarding pistol gripsm thumbhole stocks, telescoping stocks, vertical pistol grips and flash hiders. My goal is to give every U-15 purchaser a pamphlet that lists the exact AW laws in CA so they will be as educated as possible.

The U-15 was designed to comply with all California Laws. I believe anyone who reads the text of the laws will determine it to be compliant as well.

-Grant

PIRATE14
11-21-2006, 12:15 AM
Well you can't have two stocks???

The tube is the tube but if it's a stock than it clearly has no hole.

Than you have a giant grip which clearly meets the grip requirements........:eek:

MonsterMan
11-21-2006, 12:21 AM
Well you can't have two stocks???

The tube is the tube but if it's a stock than it clearly has no hole.

Than you have a giant grip which clearly meets the grip requirements........:eek:


+1

MM

pacificcoast
11-21-2006, 12:27 AM
^^ regardless of how it attaches i think its a matter of how it functions.

PIRATE14
11-21-2006, 1:03 AM
So the tube is a tube but not a stock and it's cheekweld.....not always a stock........tons of these in the market.

And the grip is a stock that functions as a stock.....cleary has no holes.

This is fun:cool:

Stevil
11-21-2006, 1:33 AM
I bet the enemy at the DOJ are having a good laugh at us second-guessing ourselves on this one, those idiots can't muster the intelligence or wherewithal to redefine the AW rules to their agenda and favor (they seem to rely on us to prove their intent) nor will they be able to define this outstanding invention a thumb-HOLE stock either... good job Tool, you hard work and ingenuity have been delivered with much aplomb and deserve applause. :)

colossians323
11-21-2006, 5:13 AM
B. The buffer tube is in this case clearly part of the stock. It is intended to place ones cheek against, which is usually a function of the stock. The fact that a piece of foam rubber is actually sold with the stock clearly indicates that the buffer tube has taken over a function that is usually done by the stock. The situation is very different in the case of the AR pistol, where the buffer tube is not intended to be used as a stock (as one can neither grip it or use it as a cheek rest, without major contortions). Whereas in an AR pistol the buffer tube has the function of part of the receiver, namely be part of the machanical action of the gun, in this case the foam-coated buffer tube has the function of the stock, and therefore has to be considered part of the stock.


Contrarian, or misguided?
Or possibly contradictarian.
You are not playing devils advocate, you are only contradicting yourself, and now calling all ar15 pistols SBR's, by your explanation.

DOJ, will clearly tell you that they don't look at stocks, they only regulate firearms, there is no hope to get a letter out of the DOJ, without sending the whole rifle and stock together, and even then they probably will not put it in writing.

kick Z tail out
11-21-2006, 5:26 AM
I like it and would definitely fork over the $185. :cool:

m1371
11-21-2006, 5:38 AM
B. The buffer tube is in this case clearly part of the stock. It is intended to place ones cheek against, which is usually a function of the stock. The fact that a piece of foam rubber is actually sold with the stock clearly indicates that the buffer tube has taken over a function that is usually done by the stock. The situation is very different in the case of the AR pistol, where the buffer tube is not intended to be used as a stock (as one can neither grip it or use it as a cheek rest, without major contortions). Whereas in an AR pistol the buffer tube has the function of part of the receiver, namely be part of the machanical action of the gun, in this case the foam-coated buffer tube has the function of the stock, and therefore has to be considered part of the stock.

I've pointed it out once and I'll do so again.

The primary purpose of a buttstock on a rifle is to provide support to the weapon while it is being fired. You're ignoring this fact if you're claiming that the only purpose of a stock is solely to provide the shooter a cheekweld.

I cannot see the receiver extension being capable of providing any support whatsoever against the force of the weapon's recoil when using the U-15.

As for the argument that the situation is different in the case of the AR pistol, I'd have to disagree there too. I've fired one going "nose-to-charging handle" with a solid cheekweld on the receiver extension. By doing this, have I turned the AR pistol into a SBR? The receiver extension was not providing any support for the weapon against my shoulder as I fired it. All the support against the force of recoil was coming from my hands and arms.

So since I can get a good cheekweld against the handguards of my rifle and fire it, does that reclassify the handguards as a buttstock now?

JPglee1
11-21-2006, 6:18 AM
As for the argument that the situation is different in the case of the AR pistol, I'd have to disagree there too. I've fired one going "nose-to-charging handle" with a solid cheekweld on the receiver extension. By doing this, have I turned the AR pistol into a SBR? The receiver extension was not providing any support for the weapon against my shoulder as I fired it. All the support against the force of recoil was coming from my hands and arms.


No...not if the buffer was free floating and you didn't have it against your shoulder, you were shooting it legally. If you had a full length foam covered "nerf tube" buried in your shoulder it would be "iffy"

J

tenpercentfirearms
11-21-2006, 6:36 AM
Treelogger is doing a great job of replicating the DOJ. Saying a whole lot of nothing in a long post. The DOJ can come out and say what they want, but they have already made it clear it is up to the 58 DAs to determine legality and it is the 58 DAs who charge people. Unfortunately the DOJ has emasculated themselves on this whole deal and it is quite sad. I really wanted to listen to their opinions and actually believe they meant something. I guess they only way they could get some of that back is if they started giving relevant opinions and then after that if we actually started to see people get prosecuted outside of these relevant opinions. Until then, they have already done a superb job of making themselves powerless to the 58 DAs. I find this completely amazing. Oh well.

Toolbox X
11-21-2006, 7:14 AM
Have you guys ever read the Office of the Attorney General Mission Statement?

http://ag.ca.gov/ag/mission.php

Mission Statement

It is our duty to serve our state and work honorably every day to fulfill California's promise. The Attorney General and our Department's employees provide leadership, information and education in partnership with state and local governments and the people of California to:

- Enforce and apply all our laws fairly and impartially.
- Ensure justice, safety, and liberty for everyone.
- Ecourage economic prosperity, equal opportunity and tolerance.
- Safeguard California's human, natural, and financial resources for this and future generations.

Dont Tread on Me
11-21-2006, 7:15 AM
they have already done a superb job of making themselves powerless to the 58 DAs. I find this completely amazing. Oh well.

The must be some way of forcing a transparent assessment. I don't mean the Iggster looking at a photo and declaring it a AW. He would declare my air rifle an AW. I remember the early OLL NRA meetings when the NRA remarked not listing was the goal as the market would provide a solution to the feature ban. Well, the market is providing. Time for the NRA to spend our membership $$ on getting this thing certified as 100% CA legal.

I always take the 58 DAs response as their way of saying its legal but we don't like it so we will try to scare you. I only wish that now they don't consider themselves a state wide agency they would stop burning our tax money.

Enforce and apply all our laws fairly and impartially.
This just rubs salt into the wound....

Ps what is it with the Iggster and Mahogany?

Hunter
11-21-2006, 7:22 AM
...Ps what is it with the Iggster and Mahogany?

Refers to his use of his office as a shooting range for his M4.....:eek:

Dont Tread on Me
11-21-2006, 7:35 AM
Ah, those dam pistol grips are even dangerous to trained professionals. Perhaps Toolbox X could render this public servant's office safe by sending him a complementary stock:)