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View Full Version : $5k and a good lawyer can get anyone CCW?


DoxRain
04-19-2011, 5:38 PM
I happened to hear this guy Ayoob speak...you guys may know him as I believe he is a firearms columnist and gun activist. Anyway, he said that even in the toughest of counties in the toughest of states such as NY and CA, if you hire a good lawyer and shell out $5,000 - $7,000, they basically have the ability to 'compel' the local sheriff/authority to grant a CCW.

Now I know you all feel ccw is a right, but if a one is willing and able to pay to get it, do you feel this is true?

NotEnufGarage
04-19-2011, 5:41 PM
I'm betting a good chunk of the $5000 ends up in the Sheriffs reelection campaign fund.

It'd be nice to get a papertrail showing that, then prosecute said Sheriff for corruption.

Librarian
04-19-2011, 6:03 PM
Costs more in California, I think.

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=116 and http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative

wildhawker
04-19-2011, 6:06 PM
$5k won't get you very far no matter if a campaign contrib or legal fees.

N6ATF
04-19-2011, 6:09 PM
The max campaign contribution for sheriff in CA - before you have to report as a major donor - is $9,999.99. So I'd say $5k is 50% short, at best.

BoxesOfLiberty
04-19-2011, 6:09 PM
Here in Santa Clara County, that was true in the good old days, except you didn't need to hire a lawyer.

CCWFacts
04-19-2011, 7:14 PM
$5k is very little money in LA and SF. It doesn't mean anything in terms of a campaign contribution, and it will pay for about 2 days of attorney fees, which isn't enough to do anything.

blakdawg
04-19-2011, 8:19 PM
Yeah, but the CCW doesn't have to be from the sheriff of the county where you sleep most nights - CCW's in CA are generally effective statewide. $5K is probably a lot of money to some sheriff's re-election fund, or the auxiliary's budget for donuts & coffee & armored vehicles, or whatever.

Librarian
04-19-2011, 8:25 PM
Yeah, but the CCW doesn't have to be from the sheriff of the county where you sleep most nights - CCW's in CA are generally effective statewide. $5K is probably a lot of money to some sheriff's re-election fund, or the auxiliary's budget for donuts & coffee & armored vehicles, or whatever.
It does have to be from the county where you are a resident.

Last year I worked and slept most nights in Sacramento, but was still a resident of Contra Costa. Kind of too bad it wasn't the other way around.

BayAreaShooter
04-19-2011, 8:34 PM
It does have to be from the county where you are a resident.

Last year I worked and slept most nights in Sacramento, but was still a resident of Contra Costa. Kind of too bad it wasn't the other way around.

Is there even 1 non LEO CCW in Contra Costa county?

blakdawg
04-19-2011, 9:40 PM
It does have to be from the county where you are a resident.

Last year I worked and slept most nights in Sacramento, but was still a resident of Contra Costa. Kind of too bad it wasn't the other way around.

Residence is a pretty fluid concept, especially in the eyes of a sympathetic sheriff.

1911su16b870
04-19-2011, 9:45 PM
This is not true in CA...

Connor P Price
04-19-2011, 9:52 PM
If this we're the case there would be a lot more CCW's out there.

blackbox
04-19-2011, 10:00 PM
Remember when Sheriff Baca was personally pushing an investigation (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/25/local/la-me-baca-donor-20101025/4)into a landlord-tenant disput outside his jurisidiction (in Beverly Hills) for a donor of his? The donor, Delijani, had given him around $20k over a few years. Thats not very much to be able to call in a pretty big favor. I bet if you make a few donations totalling $5k-$10k, and start to go to the big fundraisers, get to know the sheriff, etc, you'd end up with a CCW...

Librarian
04-19-2011, 10:10 PM
Remember when Sheriff Baca was personally pushing an investigation (http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/25/local/la-me-baca-donor-20101025/4)into a landlord-tenant disput outside his jurisidiction (in Beverly Hills) for a donor of his? The donor, Delijani, had given him around $20k over a few years. Thats not very much to be able to call in a pretty big favor. I bet if you make a few donations totalling $5k-$10k, and start to go to the big fundraisers, get to know the sheriff, etc, you'd end up with a CCW...
If you discover something like this please share it with the Calguns Foundation. There's this little project (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative) they're running ...

wizdumb
04-19-2011, 10:16 PM
If you have $5K lying around, consider contributing it to CGF instead. Then you can increase the odds that we all can hopefully benefit and (fingers crossed) eventually turn CA into a shall-issue state.

Yugo
04-19-2011, 10:24 PM
the ccw flow chart says if denied consult attorney, why?

taperxz
04-19-2011, 10:25 PM
$5k won't get you very far no matter if a campaign contrib or legal fees.


However, talk to this man^^^ in regards to legitimate residency requirements.

DoxRain
04-19-2011, 10:33 PM
$5k won't get you very far no matter if a campaign contrib or legal fees.

Maybe I wasn't clear. First, I'm not talking about making some donation to the sheriff's dept. What Ayoob was talking about was having an attorney assist you in the process. Not even going the full Keller or Peruta route, but helping you draft your paperwork, attending interview with you, etc., to 'encourage' the sheriff's dept to honor their own ccw policy. That's all.

I know going to court would cost a ton, but that wasn't what Ayoob was saying.

DoxRain
04-19-2011, 10:35 PM
This is not true in CA...

What do you base that on? In every county? Not one attorney with a track record of 'encouraging' sheriff's to grant their client a CCW? I bet you're wrong.

sreiter
04-19-2011, 11:53 PM
from another forum I'm on...

how did i get it. about a year or so of politely asking a friend of my dad who is an ex-LA DA and ex-OC DA and a criminal defense attorney. one day he called me up and just said "its going to cost about 5K and a completed app in my office in 48 hours." i did what he asked, went through the process and that was it. the 5K ended up being a donation to then sheriff mike carona "re-election campaign".

i asked what if a different sheriff gets elected

i was told it was a one time thing. we'll see when it expires. i had/have a legit use and/or reason for it so i think that will help if the new **** sheriff tries to deny me. but my attorney friend said it wouldn't be a problem. when you fill out the app you can put LEO references on it to help your case. all the guys on my app were long time family friends who all had 25+ years as an LEO. one of them was a longtime associate of the new sheriff. totally by chance, but i'm not complaining.

but it is damn near impossible for the average guy in OC. i just had an opportunity (albeit a costly one) and took the chance.

Mute
04-20-2011, 8:00 AM
Given the level of corruption in some of the locations, do you doubt that one can actually buy a CCW permit? The only question is how much it will really cost you. This is why every gun owner should support the initiative. We need to stamp this crap out.

Charlie50
04-20-2011, 8:04 AM
The max campaign contribution for sheriff in CA - before you have to report as a major donor - is $9,999.99. So I'd say $5k is 50% short, at best.

plus one... SF no chance... $50,000 maybe, but I doubt it

wildhawker
04-20-2011, 8:23 AM
Maybe I wasn't clear. First, I'm not talking about making some donation to the sheriff's dept. What Ayoob was talking about was having an attorney assist you in the process. Not even going the full Keller or Peruta route, but helping you draft your paperwork, attending interview with you, etc., to 'encourage' the sheriff's dept to honor their own ccw policy. That's all.

I know going to court would cost a ton, but that wasn't what Ayoob was saying.

As a rule, Ayoob is incorrect on this (note that I'm a huge Ayoob fan, and don't mean to dismiss the totality of his work, but only to take exception with this one point). I don't mean to say there are no possible exceptions, but those would indeed be unique and uncommon.

Glock22Fan
04-20-2011, 8:23 AM
The max campaign contribution for sheriff in CA - before you have to report as a major donor - is $9,999.99. So I'd say $5k is 50% short, at best.

Check out Baca's contribution list. I have. Two examples, based on reality:

Mr Smith, businessman, maximum
Mrs. Smith, Homemaker, maximum
Miss Smith, Schoolgirl, maximum
Master Smith, Student, maximum
and, for all I know
Mr. Gonzales Smith and his gardening crew, maximum.

There's another one where there's a company that supplies equipment to LASO.

The CEO contributes the maximum, as does the CFO, the Chief Engineer, and a number of other employees.

Don't tell me that all those contributions really do originate separately out of each of the supposed donor's pockets.

hawk1
04-20-2011, 9:13 AM
Maybe I wasn't clear. First, I'm not talking about making some donation to the sheriff's dept. What Ayoob was talking about was having an attorney assist you in the process. Not even going the full Keller or Peruta route, but helping you draft your paperwork, attending interview with you, etc., to 'encourage' the sheriff's dept to honor their own ccw policy. That's all.

I know going to court would cost a ton, but that wasn't what Ayoob was saying.

As a rule, Ayoob is incorrect on this (note that I'm a huge Ayoob fan, and don't mean to dismiss the totality of his work, but only to take exception with this one point). I don't mean to say there are no possible exceptions, but those would indeed be unique and uncommon.

Brandon, why the pompous BS in this thread? If you start acting/posting like that BJ guy, people are going to tune you out as well. That I can promise you.
I like reading your replies and thoughts, but when you start to talk down to people this way it gets real old fast.
my .02 cents, but do what you want with it.

DoxRain
04-20-2011, 9:27 AM
Brandon, why the pompous BS in this thread? If you start acting/posting like that BJ guy, people are going to tune you out as well. That I can promise you.
I like reading your replies and thoughts, but when you start to talk down to people this way it gets real old fast.
my .02 cents, but do what you want with it.

Thanks for that dude!

Anyway I called Ayoob's office and spoke with his assistant (he was out of town and not available). Anyway, she told me Ayoob gets this question a lot and is very familiar with the CCW policies in many states including CA. She said the vast majority of people commenting on this don't have ccw's and haven't even submitted an application, much less looked into what an attorney can actually do for them without even going to court. She also said the sad thing is that the reality is from what Mr. Ayoob has seen in talking to thousands of gun owners is that many of the 'naysayers' are probably illegally carrying a weapon in the name of 'self defense'.

I was told to tell the doubters that the whole corruption thing and 'donors get guns' theorists are most often conspiracy nuts, although it does sometimes happen. But most of the time, a good 2A attorney can help to remind a sheriff what their own policies are. If the applicant actually does fit the description of others who have received ccw's, the sheriff has a reasonable chance of caving in the face of litigation.

1911su16b870
04-20-2011, 9:57 AM
What do you base that on? In every county? Not one attorney with a track record of 'encouraging' sheriff's to grant their client a CCW? I bet you're wrong.

Go out and retain counsel and get back to me...

Kodemonkey
04-20-2011, 10:05 AM
Is there an effort to cross reference CCW holders in LA county and major contributors to Sheriff Baca? That would be an interesting bit of information.

Helpful_Cub
04-20-2011, 10:13 AM
If you discover something like this please share it with the Calguns Foundation. There's this little project (http://calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/resources/ccw-initiative) they're running ...

I stubled on this website. It has several of Baca's more questions compaign contributions and investigations.
http://mail.totalcapitol.com/?people_id=2767&start_s=170

wildhawker
04-20-2011, 10:14 AM
Brandon, why the pompous BS in this thread? If you start acting/posting like that BJ guy, people are going to tune you out as well. That I can promise you.
I like reading your replies and thoughts, but when you start to talk down to people this way it gets real old fast.
my .02 cents, but do what you want with it.

I have no idea how you're construing the dispassionate statement of result from significant research as "pompous". Note that I made express mention of my appreciation of and respect for Ayoob's work in other areas, but with respect to this issue (as represented by the OP), he's wrong. I have tens of thousands of pages of documents on CCW issues and have done likely into the thousands of hours of research and work on this issue; if there's any substantive evidence of what the OP mentioned I would love to see it.

-Brandon

P.S. It could very well be that Ayoob was misunderstood by the OP, as the following excerpt is something I do agree with:

She said the vast majority of people commenting on this don't have ccw's and haven't even submitted an application, much less looked into what an attorney can actually do for them without even going to court. She also said the sad thing is that the reality is from what Mr. Ayoob has seen in talking to thousands of gun owners is that many of the 'naysayers' are probably illegally carrying a weapon in the name of 'self defense'.

I was told to tell the doubters that the whole corruption thing and 'donors get guns' theorists are most often conspiracy nuts, although it does sometimes happen. But most of the time, a good 2A attorney can help to remind a sheriff what their own policies are. If the applicant actually does fit the description of others who have received ccw's, the sheriff has a reasonable chance of caving in the face of litigation.


Note that the last sentence should be at least somewhat familiar to those who follow our posts here in 2A, as is nearly every other point made by Ayoob's assistant.

jb7706
04-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Is there even 1 non LEO CCW in Contra Costa county?

Yes.

stix213
04-20-2011, 11:55 AM
Buying huge amounts of property that you can claim you need to protect from weed growers or whoever is probably the best way to get a CCW judging from the GC statements I've read in various low issuing counties. Not sure what $5k is going to do though, especially since the sheriffs have to know these things are being looked at closer today than they were years ago.

PressCheck
04-20-2011, 12:17 PM
Is there even 1 non LEO CCW in Contra Costa county?

Yup, I've had one for years.

Glock22Fan
04-20-2011, 12:23 PM
Is there an effort to cross reference CCW holders in LA county and major contributors to Sheriff Baca? That would be an interesting bit of information.


Been there, done that. Massive correlation. However, we could not find a viable candidate willing to challenge the system. Not for want of trying though.

Chuck Michel has also, I believed, advertised for such candidates as well without response.

There's so many files involved, a full forensic audit would be massive. Really does need a rock solid, without color, with a reasonable good cause to crack the system candidate.

Mute
04-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Been there, done that. Massive correlation. However, we could not find a viable candidate willing to challenge the system. Not for want of trying though.

Chuck Michel has also, I believed, advertised for such candidates as well without response.

There's so many files involved, a full forensic audit would be massive. Really does need a rock solid, without color, with a reasonable good cause to crack the system candidate.

When was this? I'd love to see a challenge in L.A. County, however, most of us don't have a five to six figure war fund at our disposal.

blakdawg
04-21-2011, 12:57 AM
Thanks for that dude!

Anyway I called Ayoob's office and spoke with his assistant (he was out of town and not available). Anyway, she told me Ayoob gets this question a lot and is very familiar with the CCW policies in many states including CA. She said the vast majority of people commenting on this don't have ccw's and haven't even submitted an application, much less looked into what an attorney can actually do for them without even going to court. She also said the sad thing is that the reality is from what Mr. Ayoob has seen in talking to thousands of gun owners is that many of the 'naysayers' are probably illegally carrying a weapon in the name of 'self defense'.

Is that sad because the law as currently enforced makes it "illegal" to carry without big fees and ***-kissing, or is it sad because she and Ayoob think there should be more fee-paying and ***-kissing?

I was told to tell the doubters that the whole corruption thing and 'donors get guns' theorists are most often conspiracy nuts, although it does sometimes happen. But most of the time, a good 2A attorney can help to remind a sheriff what their own policies are. If the applicant actually does fit the description of others who have received ccw's, the sheriff has a reasonable chance of caving in the face of litigation.

Why would someone need to be "reminded" of their own policy? Have you followed the _Peruta_ case from San Diego County at all?

It would be interesting to see if Ayoob or his office can recommend an attorney in CA who can assist with this project.

If the story as told is true, that's interesting. If it's not true, Ayoob should stop telling it. It's not really clear to me (an attorney) why it should take $5K in legal fees to remind someone of their own policies - I can see maybe a couple of billable hours to write a letter or go to a meeting, but if the fees really do add up to $5K-$7K, that sounds to me like some attorney is charging big fees because people really want their CCW's, not because there's really that much work to be done.

Also, don't forget that Ayoob is or was very recently an active LEO and is strongly identified with the LEO community - so if he or his office is quick to defend unnamed LEO's against criticisms made by unnamed others, it sounds like you're getting an answer based on preconceived ideas, not actual facts.