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View Full Version : Another "I bet this isn't an AW" Thread.


CHS
04-19-2011, 4:06 PM
Picture this:


9mm OLL AR15 with a fixed stock and pistol grip.
Bullet Button.
Smoothbore 9mm barrel and chamber.
32rd magazines.


Legal?

Would it meet all the appropriate legal definitions as a "shotgun"? If so, semi-automatic shotguns utilizing fixed magazines carry no restrictions as to the size of the magazines.

Just some mental 'batin I thought up a little while ago.

Dirtbiker
04-19-2011, 4:30 PM
Could you load 9mm centerfire in it? If so I'd bet it would still quality as an AW.

ke6guj
04-19-2011, 4:34 PM
I think it boils down to what the legal definition of shotgun and rifle are, as it applies to 12276.1. As you know, shotgun and rifle are only defined in the PC in 12020, and that definition says it applies to only 12020. So, what defintion is the DA allowed to use, 12020, the federal definition, Webster's dictionary, etc?

AJAX22
04-19-2011, 4:34 PM
It depends.... Where is the ca definition of shotgun?

J.D.Allen
04-19-2011, 4:37 PM
Could you load 9mm centerfire in it? If so I'd bet it would still quality as an AW.

Well, technically speaking, a shot shell is "centerfire" because the primer is well...in the center...of the rear of the cartridge. But a shotgun isn't a rifle because it has no well...rifling. I thing he's got something with the lack of rifling in the barrel, but IANAL and all that jazz.

bwiese
04-19-2011, 4:40 PM
I think it boils down to what the legal definition of shotgun and rifle are, as it applies to 12276.1. As you know, shotgun and rifle are only defined in the PC in 12020, and that definition says it applies to only 12020. So, what defintion is the DA allowed to use, 12020, the federal definition, Webster's dictionary, etc?

The lawyers have told me that the 12020 definitions apply to 12276, et seq. - those 'nearby' definitions, in essence, take priority over any 'external' definitions.

But they also said "don't try this at home, kiddies" during discussion of non-rifle/non-shotgun/non-pistol non-AWs.

AJAX22
04-19-2011, 4:43 PM
Well if is not defined by ca, the federal definition would seem to apply.

Which a smooth bore 9mm would seem to meet...

18 USC 921 a 5
(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

Time for another letter to the batfe

This would also work for 5.56, and would do nasty things tumbling through human flesh at short range

CHS
04-19-2011, 5:25 PM
I'm thinking "Brenneke-style" cast 9mm bullets. AKA built-in rifling. For the short distances, low pressures and low velocities that 9mm rifles are used at, this thing would still probably be more accurate than a handgun.

And I've got a number of Colt-pattern 32rd 9mm AR magazines :) I just hate featureless AR's, so I can't use them.

Kharn
04-19-2011, 6:30 PM
You'd need an 18+" barrel.
A 16" 9mm AR is ugly enough...

BoxesOfLiberty
04-19-2011, 7:28 PM
How about an ATI .410 Upper (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=971002) on a Bushmaster XM17 lower?

The lower is banned by name, but as a rifle I think.

ke6guj
04-19-2011, 7:31 PM
How about an ATI .410 Upper (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=971002) on a Bushmaster XM17 lower?

The lower is banned by name, but as a rifle I think.should be legal, but not recommended, unless you personally have the bankroll to defend it in court.

CHS
04-19-2011, 7:51 PM
You'd need an 18+" barrel.


Good point.


A 16" 9mm AR is ugly enough...

I think 9mm AR's look pretty awesome. And they're great shooters.