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speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 9:41 AM
So, I went into "said gun shop" transfer took 2 hours because something was going on with their inventory system. Needless to say, I used to frequently transfer/buy guns there, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

After the 2 hour wait,

I was charged a 35 dollar fee for the ppt/dros (not sure on the technical term).
and 10 more for a "cal approved" gun lock.

The seller gave me a gun lock with the purchase that was not CA approved per the store.

I also have a safe and plenty of gun locks at home. They wouldn't let me do the purchase without the 10 dollar gun lock I know its only 10 bucks, but when you wait 2 hours and then get nickle and dimed, you're not happy. I've seen safe / gunlock affidavits before as well, but they wouldn't let me sign one.

I previously did transfers and purchases here without the gunlock fee, although the manager who did it (who I normally deal with) wasn't there.

How much of this is BS or are they getting over on me for 10 bucks?

G60
04-18-2011, 9:43 AM
Handgun or Long gun?

speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 9:47 AM
Handgun or Long gun?

AR10 lower so...longun?

MaHoTex
04-18-2011, 9:50 AM
A lock required for a lower... Huh... Who would have thunk it...

speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 9:52 AM
A lock required for a lower... Huh... Who would have thunk it...

Well, I guess we don't technically know if it came with the upper or not? and whether its capable of firing right? So if it is a legal requirement they did right. Otherwise I'm thinking I got gypped.

rromeo
04-18-2011, 9:57 AM
I used the safe affidavit for two different lower purchases from two different FFLs. One new one and one PPT.

speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 10:01 AM
I used the safe affidavit for two different lower purchases from two different FFLs. One new one and one PPT.

I've used it at numerous gun shops, except this one.

City Arms, and Jackson.

MaHoTex
04-18-2011, 10:04 AM
I have always used the safe affidavit as well; lowers included. Never had a problem. I think you got hosed with the lock requirement.

speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 10:07 AM
I have always used the safe affidavit as well; lowers included. Never had a problem. I think you got hosed with the lock requirement.

I'm thinking it too, reason I didn't make a big deal was because the 2 hour wait had already defeated me. Plus I want to get it transferred first.

DoddRod
04-18-2011, 10:09 AM
Recently had the same thing happen to me when I went to pick up my handgun, I brought along a trigger lock I had purchased from ammo bros a month before but was told ctrigger locks are not CA spproved? got me for $7 on a cable lock. :dots:

12voltguy
04-18-2011, 10:27 AM
I used the safe affidavit for two different lower purchases from two different FFLs. One new one and one PPT.

I've used it at numerous gun shops, except this one.

City Arms, and Jackson.

same here
1 store here says I have to have a new lock with recept no older then 30 days....this same shop says the others letting me do my safe affidavit is breaking the LAW, this same store also said all AR15s are ilegal & they won't do those, the others are going to get caught........skip a few years to now & YES THEY ARE NOW SELLING AR15s..........imagine that:rolleyes:

timdps
04-18-2011, 10:32 AM
If I remember correctly, safe affedavit only works for long guns. Fed law requires locks on handguns and the safe affadavit does not apply.

Tim

MaHoTex
04-18-2011, 11:08 AM
If I remember correctly, safe affedavit only works for long guns. Fed law requires locks on handguns and the safe affadavit does not apply.

Tim

That is my understanding as well... So in regard to the OPs second posting, would a AR lower be considered a "handgun" or "longgun" in this context?

Librarian
04-18-2011, 11:21 AM
A lower really isn't either a handgun or a long gun.

See also the wiki article - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

Decoligny
04-18-2011, 11:47 AM
If the lock they sold you is still in its original packaging, just return it for a refund, or for store credit.

They have met their legal responsbility to ensure you have a lock that was purchased within the past 30 days before turning over the gun. There is nothing in the PC that says you have to keep the lock.

furyous68
04-18-2011, 11:49 AM
A lock required for a lower... Huh... Who would have thunk it...

I had to do it for an SKS barreled receiver... just the empty receiver & attached barrel.

speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 1:00 PM
If the lock they sold you is still in its original packaging, just return it for a refund, or for store credit.

They have met their legal responsbility to ensure you have a lock that was purchased within the past 30 days before turning over the gun. There is nothing in the PC that says you have to keep the lock.

They do have to sell you one with the transfer/or purchase?
Thats my main question. I wanted to know if they are complying or getting over on me for a couple extra bucks..

Regardless of whether you have something else that is approved?

Decoligny
04-18-2011, 1:11 PM
They do have to sell you one with the transfer/or purchase?
Thats my main question. I wanted to know if they are complying or getting over on me for a couple extra bucks..

Regardless of whether you have something else that is approved?

They DO NOT have to sell you one.
They DO have to ensure that you have one, and can prove that it was purchased within the last 30 days.
There is no requirement that you lock the gun with the lock that you have to have with you in order to pick the gun up.
You just have to be able to show that you have a lock.

Most people just go to WalMart, buy a $5.00 cable lock, and return it later for a refund.

If you don't have a lock when you go to pick up your gun, then you will either have to go and get one, or they will have to sell you one.

chaseface
04-18-2011, 1:20 PM
Why do you have to prove it was bought in the last 30 days? I normally just bring a lock with me when purchasing a new gun and i've never had a problem with it.

Librarian
04-18-2011, 1:23 PM
Why do you have to prove it was bought in the last 30 days? I normally just bring a lock with me when purchasing a new gun and i've never had a problem with it.

Because CA state law requires that the lock have been purchased in the last 30 days.

See the wiki link posted above.

Noxx
04-18-2011, 1:28 PM
I just keep em. When I have enough cheap gun locks, I'll do something arty with 'em.. maybe weld up a giant skeletal AK pattern.

Also I wish you folks wouldn't use "gypped" in posts. You may not realize it but it's an offensive characterization of the Roma people. Really it's no different than saying "I got jewed", which obviously raises hackles. Let's keep it civil.

speeddreamz
04-18-2011, 1:43 PM
I just keep em. When I have enough cheap gun locks, I'll do something arty with 'em.. maybe weld up a giant skeletal AK pattern.

Also I wish you folks wouldn't use "gypped" in posts. You may not realize it but it's an offensive characterization of the Roma people. Really it's no different than saying "I got jewed", which obviously raises hackles. Let's keep it civil.

Didn't realize that.

mag360
04-18-2011, 2:20 PM
I was forced to have a NEW cable lock for a PPT at Guns and Fishing in vacaville. They wanted $8 or $10 for the lock and said I couldn't return it unopened to them even if I was taking the gun home in a locked case.

I told them to go pound salt, bought the $8 lock at wal-mart and returned the same day. The guy actually opened up the wal-mart lock to write down the model # of the lock. ridiculous. My gun came with a cable lock as part of the PPT but apparently that's not good enough for CA, even if you have a locked case you take it home in.

EBR Works
04-18-2011, 2:41 PM
I was forced to have a NEW cable lock for a PPT at Guns and Fishing in vacaville. They wanted $8 or $10 for the lock and said I couldn't return it unopened to them even if I was taking the gun home in a locked case.

I told them to go pound salt, bought the $8 lock at wal-mart and returned the same day. The guy actually opened up the wal-mart lock to write down the model # of the lock. ridiculous. My gun came with a cable lock as part of the PPT but apparently that's not good enough for CA, even if you have a locked case you take it home in.

Complain all you want, but dealers must follow California and Federal law or face issues later when they are eventually audited by DOJ and ATF. Yes it is ridiculous, but it's the law.

The dealer not allowing returns on the lock is BS though.

furyous68
04-18-2011, 3:55 PM
I thought the reason they did it was:
1. to ensure that where there is any possibility of a child getting to the gun there would be a lock on it.
2. The lock being purchased within 30 days kept people from just taking one off another gun they had and using it for the new one.. again ensuring that each gun you owned had a lock.

I just get mine from my local PD for free and have them sign something stating when I picked it up. Not sure why one would be needed for a PPT when the gun comes from the previous owner with a lock in the first place.

Also, isn't the lock required only if the gun doesn't come with a CA approved lock? Cause most handguns already come with locks... but some aren't CA approved.

dantodd
04-18-2011, 3:58 PM
If the lock is transfered with three firearm out should satisfy the requirement, next time just have the seller write a separate receipt got the lock. Also, for non-handguns a "safe affidavit" should suffice in place of a lock.

BigDogatPlay
04-18-2011, 4:12 PM
My gun came with a cable lock as part of the PPT but apparently that's not good enough for CA, even if you have a locked case you take it home in.

If it's the OEM lock that is shipped by the manufacturer, then as far as I am concerned the FFL forcing you to buy another lock in that specific scenario, and refusing to return it, is ripping you off.

But that's just the way I feel about it.

hawk1
04-18-2011, 4:25 PM
Maybe we can get one of the CGF board members to stand outside the shop and throw F-bombs at them until they stop this nonsense?..


:hide:





:innocent:


Thread content would dictate that I suggest printing your own receipt with any of the online programs available at Google and supply your own DOJ approved lock prior to going in to do a transfer. That will satisfy the law.

otteray
04-18-2011, 7:52 PM
As stated above, just go to your local PD or maybe CHP has them (Santa Cruz did.)
They asked how many and I said how 'bout 15 of 'em?
I've got a bunch of them either unused or else used once.
Maybe I should pass them to those that need one; just for a shipping cost + dated receipt.
BTW, I've never been asked for a lock's receipt. That's anal.

C&Rtrader
04-19-2011, 8:27 AM
safe affidavit is FINE for handguns... that is why there is a section at the bottom for a DOJ approved Lock Box. Lock Boxs are handgun specific.

I think the store wanted to make a few extra bucks and pushed a lock sale on you also. I had a store in the SF Bay Area try that with me on a PPT (after waiting about 90 minutes on a tuesday). They told me I, the purchaser, had to buy a lock. I told them I had a safe and just needed to sign the affidavit. They then told me my Gun Vault wasn't on the DOJ approved list. Thank goodness for the internet :) I was able to pull up the DOJ web site right there in the store and prove to them it was. I am all for supporting local independent gun shops but not when they treat me like this.

I understand that stores dont like doing PPTs because they only make $10 on them and they take up time and resources. BUT.. if you annoy me while doing a PPT the odds of me NOT coming back to use your range or buy a gun there go way up. You may "win" by making $2 on the lock you sold me but you will loose out on a lot more when I take my general business elsewhere.

Riodog
04-19-2011, 8:46 AM
Thread content would dictate that I suggest printing your own receipt with any of the online programs available at Google and supply your own DOJ approved lock prior to going in to do a transfer. That will satisfy the law.

Bullseye, just copy and paste existing receipt without date and fill in at your leisure.
Rio

EBR Works
04-19-2011, 8:48 AM
safe affidavit is FINE for handguns...



Unfortunately, it is not so at the Federal level. See here:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=105159

Here is the skinny on safe affidavits: State and Federal gun laws overlap.

Safe affidavits work in CA on lonnguns only. The Feds do not recognize the safe affidavit.

Federal does not require a lock when you take possession of a longgun, only handguns.

However, in CA you must have EITHER a qualifying safe or a lock for your longgun when you take possession.

You MUST have a factory supplied lock with your handgun OR a CA approved lock for your handgun. The Feds require a lock, so the CA approved lock thing is just adding on to that requirement.

So, before we get any more confused, if you buy a longgun, you must either have a safe, a factory supplied lock, or purchase a lock.

If you buy a handgun, it must come with a factory supplied lock, or you must purchase a lock.

Hope this helps.

hawk1
04-19-2011, 9:02 AM
safe affidavit is FINE for handguns...

Does not meet federal requirement as mandated in Child Safety Lock Act of 2005.

C&Rtrader
04-19-2011, 9:36 AM
Does not meet federal requirement as mandated in Child Safety Lock Act of 2005.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf

I am curious then why there is a section on the safe affidavit for a lock box?

I read the text of the CSLA of 2005. you appear to be right. My mistake. I am still curious though, per this ATF letter:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/042106-openletter-ffl-child-safety-locks.html

would and 03 FFL exempt you from this?

Quote: "As enacted, the law does not require safety devices to be provided where the handgun transfer is between FFLs."

Librarian
04-19-2011, 9:56 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf

I am curious then why there is a section on the safe affidavit for a lock box?
CA accepts a lock box as a safety device. There's nothing wrong with the lock box or the safe affidavit - it's just that BATFE won't accept the CA affidavit. Looks like a strong case of 'not invented here'.

I read the text of the CSLA of 2005. you appear to be right. My mistake. I am still curious though, per this ATF letter:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/042106-openletter-ffl-child-safety-locks.html

would and 03 FFL exempt you from this?

Quote: "As enacted, the law does not require safety devices to be provided where the handgun transfer is between FFLs."


No, that's for selling dealers, not collectors.

SoCal Gunner
04-19-2011, 9:58 AM
I was forced to have a NEW cable lock for a PPT at Guns and Fishing in vacaville. They wanted $8 or $10 for the lock and said I couldn't return it unopened to them even if I was taking the gun home in a locked case.

I told them to go pound salt, bought the $8 lock at wal-mart and returned the same day. The guy actually opened up the wal-mart lock to write down the model # of the lock. ridiculous. My gun came with a cable lock as part of the PPT but apparently that's not good enough for CA, even if you have a locked case you take it home in.

That is just BS. I've done this several times with the OEM provided cable lock.

Peter.Steele
04-19-2011, 11:10 AM
As stated above, just go to your local PD or maybe CHP has them (Santa Cruz did.)
They asked how many and I said how 'bout 15 of 'em?
I've got a bunch of them either unused or else used once.
Maybe I should pass them to those that need one; just for a shipping cost + dated receipt.
BTW, I've never been asked for a lock's receipt. That's anal.


Couple years ago I walked into the Chowchilla PD and asked about the cable locks. They asked how many I needed, and I asked how many they had. Guy handed me a box of about 30 locks. :D

ke6guj
04-19-2011, 11:16 AM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/gsaff.pdf

I am curious then why there is a section on the safe affidavit for a lock box?that is because the safe affidavit was drawn up before the federal law went into effect. So, even though CA allows for the affidavit for handgun purchases, the feds don't.

I read the text of the CSLA of 2005. you appear to be right. My mistake. I am still curious though, per this ATF letter:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/04/042106-openletter-ffl-child-safety-locks.html

would and 03 FFL exempt you from this?

Quote: "As enacted, the law does not require safety devices to be provided where the handgun transfer is between FFLs."

IIRC, ATF only considers an 03FFL to be an FFL when actually transfering a C&R firearm, so he is only exempt form the CSLA when trnasfering a C&R handgun. but I seem to recall that C&R handguns are already exempt from the CSLA. But, that should then allow the CA Safe Affidavit for C&R handgun purchases.

ZNinerFan
04-19-2011, 2:33 PM
We got hosed bro. That's part of the reason I hadn't set foot in that place in over 2 years.

The only reason I didn't push the whole lock issue was because I usually tip a place for ppt's an extra $20-$30 for their time if they are courteous and don't try to nickel and dime me on stuff. So instead I gave them the $10 for another useless lock I will never use.

I could tell you were annoyed about the lock. I was too.

donw
04-19-2011, 3:08 PM
part of my last DROS was to give my gun safe's name and model...

ke6guj
04-19-2011, 3:11 PM
part of my last DROS was to give my gun safe's name and model...thats the safe affidavit. filling that out exempts you from CA's safety lock law, but doesn't satisfy the federal handgun safetly law, so you have to buy a lock to comply with federal law, when buying a handgun.

In the OP's case, he wasn't buying a handgun, so he should havebeen able to fill out the safe affidavit and been fine.

rromeo
04-19-2011, 3:36 PM
thats the safe affidavit. filling that out exempts you from CA's safety lock law, but doesn't satisfy the federal handgun safetly law, so you have to buy a lock to comply with federal law, when buying a handgun.

In the OP's case, he wasn't buying a handgun, so he should havebeen able to fill out the safe affidavit and been fine.

When I bought my .38 last month, I know I didn't get a lock. I'm trying to think back now, he may have asked if I had one.
I've bought a few parts there, and a bunch of ammo, so these guys know me. Did they just forget?

ZNinerFan
04-19-2011, 3:48 PM
They made me purchase a lock even though I was having a rifle transferred to me. It was a classic case of a gun store nickel and diming folks in the name of the law.

For those following the thread, the transaction involved me and speaddreamz trading a rifle for a stripped upper/lower.

ke6guj
04-19-2011, 5:33 PM
When I bought my .38 last month, I know I didn't get a lock. I'm trying to think back now, he may have asked if I had one.
I've bought a few parts there, and a bunch of ammo, so these guys know me. Did they just forget?not all FFL properly follow the law, to their detriment at audit time.

Parabellus
04-19-2011, 6:25 PM
Having purchased a bunch of guns (mostly handguns on PPT) over the past five years I have never been asked to buy a lock. I have been given so many cable locks by the gunshops I use that I have given some away to friends with guns and kids.:confused:

Vacaville
04-19-2011, 6:28 PM
Most people just go to WalMart, buy a $5.00 cable lock, and return it later for a refund.


This was what I did for the past five years or so. Make sure to bring the receipt into the gun shop with the lock - it has to have been bought within the past 30 days. Recently our local Wally World stopped selling gun locks though.

energizer
04-29-2011, 2:57 PM
The law says that when transferring a firearm, it should be accompanied with a CA DOJ approved locking device. I did a PPT today at Target Masters West. The firearm was Ruger 10/22 and it came with a Ruger lock. They lady (Sarah) said that it might not be CA DOJ approved. Fine, the seller included a "Project Child Safe" lock with the firearm and she still didn't considered it lawful as that "Project Child Safe" lock did not had a receipt. If the lock clearly says something like "not to be sold" how can I get a receipt.

I told "Sarah", the lady who was assisting the PPT and not acknowledging the lock that I will buy a lock and get it to you when I pickup the firearm. She said that that it has to be done right now before the DROS!

Ultimately we had to buy a lock from Target Masters.

Is this correct and according to the law?

I have completed several DROS transactions with Jackson Arms and those guys didn't crib about this trivial issue and were pretty flexible. In case of Jackson Arms the seller left a gun lock with them even after the DROS started.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

Librarian
04-29-2011, 3:48 PM
The law says that when transferring a firearm, it should be accompanied with a CA DOJ approved locking device. I did a PPT today at Target Masters West. The firearm was Ruger 10/22 and it came with a Ruger lock. They lady (Sarah) said that it might not be CA DOJ approved. Fine, the seller included a "Project Child Safe" lock with the firearm and she still didn't considered it lawful as that "Project Child Safe" lock did not had a receipt. If the lock clearly says something like "not to be sold" how can I get a receipt.

I told "Sarah", the lady who was assisting the PPT and not acknowledging the lock that I will buy a lock and get it to you when I pickup the firearm. She said that that it has to be done right now before the DROS!

Ultimately we had to buy a lock from Target Masters.

Is this correct and according to the law?

I have completed several DROS transactions with Jackson Arms and those guys didn't crib about this trivial issue and were pretty flexible. In case of Jackson Arms the seller left a gun lock with them even after the DROS started.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

The safety device is a checkoff item for dealers before they are allowed to deliver - so it is incorrect that the lock has to be purchased or verified before pick-up day.

If you check here, http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp?select=model and pick 'Ruger', you will see 4 Ruger-brand locks on the approved list; the 4015, 4025 and 4035 locks are approved for rifles.

Seems to me that if a dealer doesn't think a lock is on the approved list for a firearm, he/she would take the time to look it up to be sure.

See also the wiki article - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

energizer
04-29-2011, 5:38 PM
The safety device is a checkoff item for dealers before they are allowed to deliver - so it is incorrect that the lock has to be purchased or verified before pick-up day.

If you check here, http://safetydevice.doj.ca.gov/dsearch2.asp?select=model and pick 'Ruger', you will see 4 Ruger-brand locks on the approved list; the 4015, 4025 and 4035 locks are approved for rifles.

Seems to me that if a dealer doesn't think a lock is on the approved list for a firearm, he/she would take the time to look it up to be sure.

See also the wiki article - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

Thanks Librarian,

I checked the wiki link from your earlier posts.

Although the Ruger locks are approved, this Ruger lock doesn't have any markings except "Ruger" and "Made In Taiwan". The other lock from project child safe has markings "RX14SC" and it is approved lock (I checked from CA DOJ site). Even this was approved, and was accompanying the firearm from the seller, they said that a receipt is needed.

Now the question is that, Is the receipt needed even if the seller supplies the CA approved locking device with the firearm?

Thanks.

geeknow
04-30-2011, 5:22 AM
Energizer,
Yes. There needs to be a receipt showing the lock was purchased w/in the last 30 days.

Lock + receipt = good to go.

stomper4x4
04-30-2011, 10:09 PM
Just a tip, if it wasn't mentioned...My counties SO gives away cable locks. I swing by and grab a few each time I purchase a gun and bring one to the store with me on pickup day.

energizer
04-30-2011, 10:19 PM
Just a tip, if it wasn't mentioned...My counties SO gives away cable locks. I swing by and grab a few each time I purchase a gun and bring one to the store with me on pickup day.

Would they give you a receipt even if they give them away?

atv
04-30-2011, 10:37 PM
safe affidavit is FINE for handguns... that is why there is a section at the bottom for a DOJ approved Lock Box. Lock Boxs are handgun specific.

I think the store wanted to make a few extra bucks and pushed a lock sale on you also. I had a store in the SF Bay Area try that with me on a PPT (after waiting about 90 minutes on a tuesday). They told me I, the purchaser, had to buy a lock. I told them I had a safe and just needed to sign the affidavit. They then told me my Gun Vault wasn't on the DOJ approved list. Thank goodness for the internet :) I was able to pull up the DOJ web site right there in the store and prove to them it was. I am all for supporting local independent gun shops but not when they treat me like this.

I understand that stores dont like doing PPTs because they only make $10 on them and they take up time and resources. BUT.. if you annoy me while doing a PPT the odds of me NOT coming back to use your range or buy a gun there go way up. You may "win" by making $2 on the lock you sold me but you will loose out on a lot more when I take my general business elsewhere.

This.

Norsemen308
05-01-2011, 12:11 AM
A lower really isn't either a handgun or a long gun.

See also the wiki article - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California#Locks.2C _Safes.2C_and_Laws

then why do you have to be 21 to buy a lower???

ke6guj
05-01-2011, 12:17 AM
then why do you have to be 21 to buy a lower???

because you have to be 21 to receive ANY firearm from a dealer (with the exception of rifles and shotguns, which a stripped lower is neither).

xmustanguyx
05-01-2011, 12:18 AM
then why do you have to be 21 to buy a lower???

Because you could turn it into a pistol. I remember some stuff about pistol grip shotguns being 21 and over too...

energizer
05-01-2011, 10:22 PM
This.

Thanks

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2011, 5:26 AM
Everyone needs to read this thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254024&highlight=12088.1

In my opinion there is absolutely no reason a dealer should ever need to bother with FSD receipts when any CA approved FSD for your firearm will work.

Now, do all dealers bother to figure this out? Do all dealers want to keep their customers happy? Do all dealers like to try and make you buy a gun lock when you don't have to?

We haven't sold a gun lock at my shop in going on probably three years. I just got in a new batch of Project Childsafe locks and I have found another source for more. Any gun that comes with an approved FSD whether a new purchase or a PPT is not going to have to buy a new lock. Any gun that doesn't come with an approved FSD whether new or a PPT is not going to have to buy a lock as I am going to provide you with a free Project Childsafe FSD.

Please do not melt down or destroy your approved FSDs! Turn them back in to a dealer that knows the law and follows it for your benefit! I would be more than happy to take any and all of your FSDs so I can keep giving them away!

energizer
05-02-2011, 12:36 PM
After reading various threads and PC I draw a conclusion that The firearm must accompany a CA approved FSD (receipt not required) 12088.1 (a).

12088.1 Subdivision (e) says, To get an exemption from (a) the purchaser needs to provide a FSD with receipt.

Receipt is only required when the firearm is not accompanied by an approved FSD and the buyer provides the FSD.

frankiejoe577
05-02-2011, 4:35 PM
As soon as you said the PPT took 2 hours and you are in the bay area I knew it was Bullseye. They took a long time with my PPT also.

tenpercentfirearms
05-02-2011, 11:21 PM
After reading various threads and PC I draw a conclusion that The firearm must accompany a CA approved FSD (receipt not required) 12088.1 (a).

12088.1 Subdivision (e) says, To get an exemption from (a) the purchaser needs to provide a FSD with receipt.

Receipt is only required when the firearm is not accompanied by an approved FSD and the buyer provides the FSD.

That isn't the way I read it. A receipt is only required when you want to be exempt from (a). If you simply bring in a lock and give it to the dealer, then the dealer can give you the lock right back and you will have complied with (a). Again (e) is only a means to exempt you from (a). (a) does not specify where the lock must come from. So if comes from the factory, the dealer, or the consumer, as long as it accompanies the handgun, is approved, and fits that firearm, it is good to go.

Make sense? Now good luck getting a dealer or even the DOJ to see it that way, but it is how the law reads.

energizer
05-04-2011, 12:31 PM
As soon as you said the PPT took 2 hours and you are in the bay area I knew it was Bullseye. They took a long time with my PPT also.

4 people took turns to do that single PPT. They must have spent more human resources than gaining $2 monetary resources from that lock they sold me.

edlegault
05-04-2011, 1:09 PM
At least one of our local gun dealers gives you a free cable lock when doing a purchase or transfer. My understanding is the sheriff or local PD gives them to him.

VytamenC Tactical
05-04-2011, 7:45 PM
that is b.s. i ppt a long gun in glendale at GLENDALE GALLERY OF GUNS and they pulled the same b.s. with me they wouldnt even accept my project child safe lock. i think it is a ploy to make additional money on the transfer. dont ever go to that gun store again.

anothergunnut
05-04-2011, 7:47 PM
It's not that complicated; the OP should not have been required to purchase a lock. You do not need to satisfy state and federal law with the same lock. The safe affidavit satisfied CA law. The lock that was transferred with the handgun satisfied the federal law. Federal law only requires a lock; it doesn't require that it be a CA approved lock or that it be purchased within 30 days.

Librarian
05-04-2011, 8:43 PM
It's not that complicated; the OP should not have been required to purchase a lock. You do not need to satisfy state and federal law with the same lock. The safe affidavit satisfied CA law. The lock that was transferred with the handgun satisfied the federal law. Federal law only requires a lock; it doesn't require that it be a CA approved lock or that it be purchased within 30 days.

You may be right.

Now, convince BATFE and CA-DOJ to take those interpretations seriously.

tenpercentfirearms
05-04-2011, 9:06 PM
It's not that complicated; the OP should not have been required to purchase a lock. You do not need to satisfy state and federal law with the same lock. The safe affidavit satisfied CA law. The lock that was transferred with the handgun satisfied the federal law. Federal law only requires a lock; it doesn't require that it be a CA approved lock or that it be purchased within 30 days.

That won't work.

12088.15. (a) No person shall keep for commercial sale, offer, or expose for commercial sale, or commercially sell any firearms safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088, or that does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.
(b) No person may distribute as part of an organized firearm safety program, with or without consideration, any firearm safety device that is not listed on the roster maintained pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12088 or does not comply with the standards for firearms safety devices adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2.
(c) No long-gun safe may be manufactured in this state for sale in this state that does not comply with the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2, unless the long-gun safe is labeled by the manufacturer consistent with the requirements of Section 12088.1.
(d)(1) Any person who keeps for commercial sale, offers, or exposes for commercial sale, or who commercially sells a long-gun safe that does not comply with the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2, and who knows or has reason to know, that the long-gun safe in question does not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2, is in violation of this section, and is punishable as provided in subdivision (e), unless the long-gun safe is labeled pursuant to Section 12088.1.
(2) Any person who keeps for commercial sale, offers, or exposes for commercial sale, or who commercially sells a long-gun safe that does not comply with the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 12088.2, and who removes or causes to be removed from the long-gun safe, the label required pursuant to Section 12088.1, is in violation of this section, and is punishable as provided in subdivision (e).
(e) A violation of this section is punishable by a civil fine of up to five hundred dollars ($500). A second violation of this section that occurs within five years of the date of a previous offense is punishable by a civil fine of up to one thousand dollars ($1,000) and, if the violation is committed by a licensed firearms dealer, the dealer shall be ineligible to sell firearms in this state for 30 days. A third or subsequent violation that occurs within five years of two or more previous offenses is punishable by a civil fine of up to five thousand dollars ($5,000) and, if the violation is committed by a licensed firearms dealer, the firearms dealer shall be permanently ineligible to sell firearms in this state.
(f) The Attorney General, a district attorney, or a city attorney may bring a civil action for a violation of the provisions of this section.

anothergunnut
05-05-2011, 12:32 PM
That won't work.

Yes it does work. The seller, as a private party, is not "keep(ing) for commercial sale" and thus, that provision does not apply to him.

Soldier415
05-06-2011, 7:28 AM
So, I went into "said gun shop" transfer took 2 hours because something was going on with their inventory system. Needless to say, I used to frequently transfer/buy guns there, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

After the 2 hour wait,

I was charged a 35 dollar fee for the ppt/dros (not sure on the technical term).
and 10 more for a "cal approved" gun lock.

The seller gave me a gun lock with the purchase that was not CA approved per the store.

I also have a safe and plenty of gun locks at home. They wouldn't let me do the purchase without the 10 dollar gun lock I know its only 10 bucks, but when you wait 2 hours and then get nickle and dimed, you're not happy. I've seen safe / gunlock affidavits before as well, but they wouldn't let me sign one.

I previously did transfers and purchases here without the gunlock fee, although the manager who did it (who I normally deal with) wasn't there.

How much of this is BS or are they getting over on me for 10 bucks?

Just saw this thread and wanted to shed some light on the issues.

First, please send me an email at dan at bullseyeusa.com so I can promptly refund you the lock.

I apologize the PPT took so long. The issue is that we use an electronic inventory/A&D system. When a PPT comes in we must create a new style for the firearm with a PPT designator and include manufacturer, model, serial number, caliber etc.

We then have to create a purchase order and receive that gun into our system to have a log number generated. It adds time onto the process but it is the only way we can ensure our electronic book matches our bound book and remain in compliance with Federal Law.

When you came in for the PPT, the process was very new and we were in the process of getting everyone up to speed on the new system. We had to be meticulous so there were no mistakes made during the process.

Soldier415
05-06-2011, 7:33 AM
Everyone needs to read this thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254024&highlight=12088.1

In my opinion there is absolutely no reason a dealer should ever need to bother with FSD receipts when any CA approved FSD for your firearm will work.

Now, do all dealers bother to figure this out? Do all dealers want to keep their customers happy? Do all dealers like to try and make you buy a gun lock when you don't have to?

We haven't sold a gun lock at my shop in going on probably three years. I just got in a new batch of Project Childsafe locks and I have found another source for more. Any gun that comes with an approved FSD whether a new purchase or a PPT is not going to have to buy a new lock. Any gun that doesn't come with an approved FSD whether new or a PPT is not going to have to buy a lock as I am going to provide you with a free Project Childsafe FSD.

Please do not melt down or destroy your approved FSDs! Turn them back in to a dealer that knows the law and follows it for your benefit! I would be more than happy to take any and all of your FSDs so I can keep giving them away!
Wes,

Thanks for posting that, I hadn't seen it. We want to ensure we remain in compliance with the law and keep our customers happy. I am going to review our current policy.

energizer
03-25-2012, 7:29 PM
Dupe

energizer
03-25-2012, 7:32 PM
We got hosed bro. That's part of the reason I hadn't set foot in that place in over 2 years.


For the same reason, I did not visit Target Masters (range, gunshop, gunsmith services) for almost an year. They must have lost my $200 business for $10. I also reported them on BBB and they are banned on BBB for 3 years because of malpractices.

I also didn't do a PPT with them for more than a year and discourage people to do PPT with them for lock reasons.

WmWhitfield
03-26-2012, 12:05 PM
Bass Pro gave me a lock for 1 cent when I bought my over/under shotgun. It didn't even work on an o/u, as if I cared.

thayne
03-26-2012, 12:31 PM
Ive never had to have a lock for AR lowers

Munk
03-26-2012, 12:38 PM
I hate the gunlock requirement. However, I always try to make it as little of a pain as I can.

When I showed up to get my handgun recently, I had my lockable container for it, my HSC, My cable-lock with a receipt showing purchase 2 days before at walmart, my ID, and my proof of residence. I just unzipped the bag, and had everything laid out so the dealer could handle the transfer as they needed.

I think the dumbest part is the "Within the last 30 days" crap. It's not like the cable-locks go bad, or fall off the roster of certified safety devices.

Yemff
03-26-2012, 12:51 PM
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/fsdcertlist

taperxz
03-26-2012, 1:17 PM
FWIW, You can always stop by to see if the local LEO office has them. They are free. Just get a receipt that you got it from them within the 30 limit.

Librarian
03-26-2012, 1:21 PM
I hate the gunlock requirement. However, I always try to make it as little of a pain as I can.

When I showed up to get my handgun recently, I had my lockable container for it, my HSC, My cable-lock with a receipt showing purchase 2 days before at walmart, my ID, and my proof of residence. I just unzipped the bag, and had everything laid out so the dealer could handle the transfer as they needed.

I think the dumbest part is the "Within the last 30 days" crap. It's not like the cable-locks go bad, or fall off the roster of certified safety devices.

As others have suggested, I think the legislative intent for the 30-day requirement was to be sure there was a 1-1 ratio of guns and locks, not 1 lock repeated for every gun purchase.

E__WOK
03-31-2012, 8:22 PM
Some cities might require that every gun bought or transferred have a lock purchased. I did a transfer in Livermore and that is what I was told.

Decoligny
03-31-2012, 9:32 PM
Good Lord this is an 11 month old NECRO THREAD.

Librarian
03-31-2012, 10:06 PM
A usage note...

Unless your post really is about the subject of the original post in the thread, please start your own thread instead of bringing back an old one.