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View Full Version : Gun Show PPT = $80.00?


dfletcher
04-16-2011, 4:32 PM
I'll keep this short & to the point to avoid the usual commentary. I'm interested only in whether the fee is legal or not legal.

Today I went to the CP gun show with a friend. He found a long gun he liked, he and the seller went to a CA FFL & did the PPT. The dealer charged my friend $80.00 for the PPT. When asked she responded "oh, that's the 'gun show PPT' price".

My review of DOJ site, DOJ letters and 12076 shows $25.00 for the state & $10.00 for the dealer & no reference to gun shows. Note: I see the $19.00 fee will/has been reduced to $14.00, let's set that aside for now.

Simple question I'd like to confirm - standard DROS fee of $25.00 + $10.00 applies for a PPT at a gun show. Is this correct or incorrect?

Finally, no - my friend is not going to call DOJ. He may give the dealer hell though. And if the dealer did overcharge yes, I'll immediately post their name.

Thank you.

Munk
04-16-2011, 4:37 PM
If they're both CA residents, then it is illegal. They're capped at 25$+10$ by statute.

If the person from the gunshow is from another state, then it's a dealer transfer and there's no problem with the price.

fairfaxjim
04-16-2011, 5:32 PM
They could have just gone down the fwy a couple of exits to Jackson Arms and not gotten ripped off.

Quiet
04-16-2011, 5:39 PM
Simple question I'd like to confirm - standard DROS fee of $25.00 + $10.00 applies for a PPT at a gun show. Is this correct or incorrect?
Correct.

dfletcher
04-16-2011, 5:48 PM
They could have just gone down the fwy a couple of exits to Jackson Arms ....

I realize that, the buyer wasn't 100% sure the charges were improper. I walked up literally as the receipt for the deal was being handed to him. He made a comment on the $80.00 PPT charge (yes, both are CA residents) and I overheard it. He asked the lady doing the paperwork and got the $80.00 response - I took him aside and he went back to question her again, got the same answer.

parcours
04-16-2011, 5:50 PM
Call the DOJ!

12voltguy
04-16-2011, 6:33 PM
Call the DOJ!

yup
we don't need anymore scum bag dealers breaking the LAW!
we have enough problems

hawk1
04-16-2011, 6:35 PM
Was the FFL dealer on sight or at a different location than the gunshow?

thedrickel
04-16-2011, 7:00 PM
My guess is Golden Gate Guns. :)

jtmkinsd
04-16-2011, 7:01 PM
Go back tomorrow with a copy of CA PC 12082 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html) and ask him to point out where it states he's allowed to charge anything more than $35. Then demand a refund of the balance. AND REPORT HIM...both to DOJ, and the gunshow sponsor.

Munk
04-16-2011, 7:06 PM
Go back tomorrow with a copy of CA PC 12082 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12082.html) and ask him to point out where it states he's allowed to charge anything more than $35. Then demand a refund of the balance. AND REPORT HIM...both to DOJ, and the gunshow sponsor.

I'm a fan of this approach, minus the instant DOJ burning. This is what is sometimes referred to as a "teachable moment". If they quit cheating people, and get their act together from here forward, then it'll be great. Alerting the gun-show to the fact that this FFL is burning their customers is a good one, since the organizers might put some pressure on them to stop being jerks.

However, if they keep stealing from people, then they should be ratted out to the DOJ for their wicked wicked ways.

trashman
04-16-2011, 9:23 PM
My guess is Golden Gate Guns. :)

Well if it is, their gunshow transfer price has gone up -- used to be $50.

--Neill

dfletcher
04-16-2011, 9:24 PM
My guess is Golden Gate Guns. :)

Correct - it is Golden Gate Guns of San Bruno. I'll give them credit in not settling for small change - most of the "I was charged too much" threads involve an extra $10 or $20, these guys are hitting up everyone for an extra $45.00 per transfer. A PPT through them costs more than a "from out of state" transfer at City Arms, SJGE and probably a few others.

I'll print PC 12082 also.

trashman
04-16-2011, 9:30 PM
Correct - it is Golden Gate Guns of San Bruno. I'll give them credit.

It will suck if they stop doing transfers altogether -- at the last Cow Palace show they were the only transfer dealer in the building and the line was 30 folks deep at any time.

--Neill

mosinnagantm9130
04-16-2011, 10:20 PM
It will suck if they stop doing transfers altogether -- at the last Cow Palace show they were the only transfer dealer in the building and the line was 30 folks deep at any time.

--Neill

Don't FFL01's have to perform PPT's?

TRICKSTER
04-16-2011, 10:51 PM
Don't FFL01's have to perform PPT's?
Yes they do, but they don't have to go to gun shows. Not condoning their actions, but if it's not their normal palace of business, there may be some other cost associated with the transaction. If there are, they must disclose it.

AndrewMendez
04-16-2011, 11:21 PM
I read the PPT rules and regs from the DOJ earlier this AM, as I was searching for a similar question someone brought up. I did not see anywhere, besides storage fees after then 10 day wait, that allowed the vendor to charge more then the 35 dollars for the transfer. I am not a bid fan of tattle tales, but I say they need a little education on the subject.

dfletcher
04-16-2011, 11:32 PM
Thanks to all for the information.

AndrewMendez
04-16-2011, 11:43 PM
Question, are you going to call, or do I need to? I hate this type of **** with a passion. PM me if you would like. These guys are crooks.

Munk
04-17-2011, 12:59 AM
It will suck if they stop doing transfers altogether -- at the last Cow Palace show they were the only transfer dealer in the building and the line was 30 folks deep at any time.

--Neill

Don't FFL01's have to perform PPT's?

Yes. If they retain their FFL they are required by law to do PPTs. They also aren't able to mandate day/time of doing PPTs. If it's busines hours, they gotta do it.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.
^Applies to all of the section. Prices, mandates, etc...


The only exception is if they want to avoid handgun PPTs, and they don't do business in handguns.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does
not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required
to process private party transfers of handguns.



I like this part:
Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a
dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any additional fees.

Rogue187
04-17-2011, 4:15 AM
Unless there was a separate charge..the total that was paid may have been the $25.00for the DOJ plus what ever the fee that they charged for the transfer work to be done.
I know that is excessive but if no other dealer is willing to do the paperwork...then they are the only game in the house.
The extra fee may be what is considered a "convenience" fee. It's wrong but what else is there..?
No one else has ever stepped up to be the transfer dealer. Remember that the dealer is going to try to recoup his costs that he pays to the show promoter.

I understand the Penal Code says that it is only a $10.00 fee that is allowed the dealer but the dealer is really going to charge what he can..and if you don't like it what other dealer can you go to.?? The one there can just stop doing the shows and then that really puts the world of hurt to PPT and dealers.

trashman
04-17-2011, 7:10 AM
Don't FFL01's have to perform PPT's?

They sure do, but I was actually referring to non-PPT transfers (from other FFL's) at the show.

I'm very much not a fan of extra PPT fees, but there isn't anything in the Penal Code that states they have to do PPTs in a timely fashion, or give those transactions priority with over retail sales, etc.

--Neill

Xerxes
04-17-2011, 7:12 AM
Just to be clear.

This was a PPT where both parties were present and lawful residents of California and neither is a licensed firearms dealer?

Also, is it clear in the DOJ regulations that acting as a transfer dealer at a gunshow is the same as at their registered place of business?

Maybe their interpretation of the law is there is a difference.

Anyone know what they charge at their registered business address?

I would have to agree with them if they said there is a difference.

It would cost them a lot more to collect the firearm at the show, carry it to their vehicles, drive them to their shop, carry them into their business. Then of course there is the additional risk for them in assuming responsibility for these firearms at a gunshow by the sunnydale projects (AKA Injun territories).

I could agree, unless it is expressly forbidden by law, that charging more for a gunshow transfer is not robbery.

mhho
04-17-2011, 7:59 AM
I was at the same Cow Palace gun show and down the aisle toward the back of the building is another FFL that charges only $35 ($10 + $25) for PPT. Here is his web site:

http://www.ugimports.com/shop/ppt-private-party-transfer-p-4.html

He is from Fremont, CA. Nice guy.

As a side note, his FFL fee at the show was $35 + $25 DROS.

maverickoc
04-17-2011, 8:04 AM
Could someone summarize the steps that one would have to go through at a gun show if one were to purchase a gun (is there a difference between handguns and rifles) from a private party?

In particular, I am interested in how that usual 10 days waiting time factors into this kind of transfer. Does the FFL dealer take possession of the gun and one has to find him 10 days later to get his gun? When does the seller get his money?

I don't mean to hijack this thread hoping this would be an easy (one post) answer for one of you guys "in the know".

ugimports
04-17-2011, 8:07 AM
It will suck if they stop doing transfers altogether -- at the last Cow Palace show they were the only transfer dealer in the building and the line was 30 folks deep at any time.

--Neill

We noticed this last time we were here. Today, we're sitting with ASI Arms.

Dealer Transfer Fees: $60 ($35+$25 DROS) special show pricing - (normally $50+$25 DROS)
PPT: $35 ($10+$25 DROS) all day every day at the show not at the show,

Never any storage fees. We even encourage you to buy multiple handguns at once and we'll hold on to them transferring them to you 1 every 30 days. We have you fill out all the DROS / 4473 forms ahead of time and then we run them on a scheduled basis until all your firearms are transferred.

We handed out flyers to many of the dealers, but I may not have given my flyer to all the private sellers. I walked around on Monday asking who may need a transfer dealer and some of the private folks may have said "no" and assumed they would walk patrons over to the folks they've always been using.

We plan to be at all future Cow Palace shows sitting with various out of town dealers to help with their transfers and perhaps have our own table. We will be sure to hand out flyers at all future shows as this is the first time we've done so and response was pretty good.

If you're heading to Cow Palace today, feel free to conduct your PPT with us @ the ASI Arms booth and even browse around at their booth.

mhho
04-17-2011, 8:10 AM
Could someone summarize the steps that one would have to go through at a gun show if one were to purchase a gun (is there a difference between handguns and rifles) from a private party?

In particular, I am interested in how that usual 10 days waiting time factors into this kind of transfer. Does the FFL dealer take possession of the gun and one has to find him 10 days later to get his gun? When does the seller get his money?

I don't mean to hijack this thread hoping this would be an easy (one post) answer for one of you guys "in the know".

-Both parties go to an FFL that does PPT
-Pay the FFL the PPT fees (DROS + service fee + any applicable tax)
-Do paperwork
-Buyer pays the seller for gun
-FFL keeps the gun
-10 days later, buyer goes to FFL to pick up gun
-Buyer enjoys gun

trashman
04-17-2011, 9:04 AM
We noticed this last time we were here. Today, we're sitting with ASI Arms.

Outstanding -- great to hear and thanks for posting in this thread!

--Neill

Saigon1965
04-17-2011, 9:25 AM
Ya need presence at all the other shows too -

We noticed this last time we were here. Today, we're sitting with ASI Arms.

ugimports
04-17-2011, 9:31 AM
Ya need presence at all the other shows too -

We'd consider that, but need to assess the volume of traffic. Cow Palace definitely has enough volume it makes sense. We wouldn't be able to attend say Turlock and pay for a table, etc.. @ $130 unless we knew we'd get enough transfers to at least cover those costs.

We may start attending San Jose to offer transfer services there.

Ding126
04-17-2011, 9:41 AM
last time I did a FTF/PPT at GG arms it was 35.00...

People have a choice to not deal with over priced FFL's and their transfer fee's.

What I have trouble understanding is a FFL has to purchase and log in their books the rifles and pistols they display in their business, you pay the 25.00 dros when you purchase...

but if you wanted to bring in the exact same pistol from down south or out of state they want 50-125.00 to handle the transaction..WHY??

Why are those fees' not DOJ regulated?

ar15robert
04-17-2011, 10:41 AM
I'm a fan of this approach, minus the instant DOJ burning. This is what is sometimes referred to as a "teachable moment". If they quit cheating people, and get their act together from here forward, then it'll be great. Alerting the gun-show to the fact that this FFL is burning their customers is a good one, since the organizers might put some pressure on them to stop being jerks.

However, if they keep stealing from people, then they should be ratted out to the DOJ for their wicked wicked ways.

I would add get some of my money back if the dealer doesnt copoerate then call DOJ as well.IMO try and settle it with dealer if they fail the attitude test then they determine the outcome.

ugimports
04-17-2011, 10:57 AM
last time I did a FTF/PPT at GG arms it was 35.00...

People have a choice to not deal with over priced FFL's and their transfer fee's.

What I have trouble understanding is a FFL has to purchase and log in their books the rifles and pistols they display in their business, you pay the 25.00 dros when you purchase...

but if you wanted to bring in the exact same pistol from down south or out of state they want 50-125.00 to handle the transaction..WHY??

Why are those fees' not DOJ regulated?

Here's how an FFL makes money:

On an FFL Transfer, it's the fee (50-125) in your example
On anything in their stock, they have profit built into the cost of the gun, usually some % markup depending on item and MSRP pricing

So, if I did a transfer at $25.00 (even though the paperwork is the same to the consumer) then I make $0. Additionally, the process of doing a transfer and coordinating paperwork from/to out of state is more cumbersome on 1 off transfers than when dealers are purchasing from distributors.

This is why the fees vary and are not regulated. For the internet transfers you can always shop around to find a store in your area (or out of your area) that has really competitive prices and choose based on price alone.

Our standard transfer fees aren't the cheapest, but our customers like the way we do business and the ease of the paperwork process working with us so it's worth the extra few bucks for them. YMMV.

dfletcher
04-17-2011, 12:08 PM
last time I did a FTF/PPT at GG arms it was 35.00...

People have a choice to not deal with over priced FFL's and their transfer fee's.

What I have trouble understanding is a FFL has to purchase and log in their books the rifles and pistols they display in their business, you pay the 25.00 dros when you purchase...

but if you wanted to bring in the exact same pistol from down south or out of state they want 50-125.00 to handle the transaction..WHY??

Why are those fees' not DOJ regulated?

That's true, there's a bit of a catch I think, and a solution.

For better or worse the only folks worse than gun owners when it comes to getting the hots for a deal are teenage boys buying cars, right? We get all hot & bothered, the blood leaves our brain and settles in ...... our trigger finger. ;)

So we get into the deal, paperwork is done and just as happened yesterday - the "what's this charge?" comes up after the deal is pretty much done, cash handed over. The buyer is not inclined to end the deal and it becomes difficult to untangle. I did stopped a deal last year only because I learned first of a $25.00 "safe gun handling fee" - I'm supposed to pay someone who's been alive less time than I've been shooting to show me how to handle a gun? No thanks, I handed back the gun & have never returned.

Much as I hate to say "there needs to be a law" I think FFLs should be required to prominently post the PPT and (out of state) FFL transfer fees in their shop with language that states PPT fees are set, FFL transfers it's the dealer's call. That way, before the deal starts the buyer knows the charges exactly.

In the meantime maybe the best approach is getting out information on who charges what, let other FFLs like the above take some of the business.

tyrist
04-17-2011, 12:22 PM
If you guys don't complain to the DOJ nothing will change. If the DOJ gets enough complaints they will eventually take action but you must be persistent.

thedrickel
04-17-2011, 12:25 PM
If you guys don't complain to the DOJ nothing will change. If the DOJ gets enough complaints they will eventually take action but you must be persistent.

The DOJ won't do jack because they are anti-gun and do not care one bit about this issue, IMHO.

jtmkinsd
04-17-2011, 12:28 PM
CA PC 12071:

(11) The licensee shall post conspicuously within the licensed
premises a detailed list of each of the following:
(A) All charges required by governmental agencies for processing
firearm transfers required by Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.
(B) All fees that the licensee charges pursuant to Sections 12082
and 12806.
(12) The licensee shall not misstate the amount of fees charged by
a governmental agency pursuant to Sections 12076, 12082, and 12806.

All the costs to the consumer which goes to the state must be clearly outlined and posted "conspicuously", along with what the dealer charges for PPTs (PC 12082) and HSC examinations/cards (PC 12806). The only fee I don't have to "conspicuously" display is my dealer fee for transfers. I don't know why that fee is absent from the requirement to post...and for me, it's posted anyway, along with all the others.

The law is already in place for what you suggest. Compliance is another story.

jtmkinsd
04-17-2011, 12:31 PM
If you guys don't complain to the DOJ nothing will change. If the DOJ gets enough complaints they will eventually take action but you must be persistent.

I agree...making a "complaint" isn't "burning" the dealer as someone posted above. Making a complaint simply means if enough are made, someone with authority to actually do something about it is going to call the dealer and give them a warning. That is the only way you get things changed.

tyrist
04-17-2011, 1:05 PM
The DOJ won't do jack because they are anti-gun and do not care one bit about this issue, IMHO.

If they get flooded with enough complaints they should take action. If they don't then make a complaint to their supervisors about how they are not addressing a violation of the law.

Ibgreezy
04-17-2011, 1:17 PM
+1 UG imports, dealt with them plenty of times (not at the gunshow though)

Ding126
04-17-2011, 1:22 PM
Here's how an FFL makes money:

On an FFL Transfer, it's the fee (50-125) in your example
On anything in their stock, they have profit built into the cost of the gun, usually some % markup depending on item and MSRP pricing

So, if I did a transfer at $25.00 (even though the paperwork is the same to the consumer) then I make $0. Additionally, the process of doing a transfer and coordinating paperwork from/to out of state is more cumbersome on 1 off transfers than when dealers are purchasing from distributors.

This is why the fees vary and are not regulated. For the internet transfers you can always shop around to find a store in your area (or out of your area) that has really competitive prices and choose based on price alone.

Our standard transfer fees aren't the cheapest, but our customers like the way we do business and the ease of the paperwork process working with us so it's worth the extra few bucks for them. YMMV.


I'm not saying the FFL shouldn't be paid for his time..I don't like the fee's all over the place...let's be honest the 35.00 PPT is 25,00 to DOJ and 10.00 to the dealer..it could be a little more for the FFL ..but let's be honest, it only takes 5-10 minutes in a organized shop....The 50-125.00 fee's are what I am whinning about.

dfletcher
04-17-2011, 1:51 PM
CA PC 12071:



All the costs to the consumer which goes to the state must be clearly outlined and posted "conspicuously", along with what the dealer charges for PPTs (PC 12082) and HSC examinations/cards (PC 12806). The only fee I don't have to "conspicuously" display is my dealer fee for transfers. I don't know why that fee is absent from the requirement to post...and for me, it's posted anyway, along with all the others.

The law is already in place for what you suggest. Compliance is another story.

Good to know - you know, I've been to pretty much every gun store from Sacramento to San Jose many, many times. I don't think I've ever seen a sign up regarding fees. I'll definitely look closer.

AndrewMendez
04-17-2011, 2:42 PM
The Dealer is clearly doing something illegal, that is my issue. They are taking advantage of the situation. I will be calling the DOJ tomorrow morning to complaint, I encourage you all to do the same. 10 bucks may not be much, and I am all for profit, but not on something that is required to exercise a Constitutional right.

Rogue187
04-17-2011, 3:32 PM
Here's something I just noticed.
The OP said that they went to the show and they found a long Hun that they liked.
What was not mentioned was if this was a private party sale or a dealer?
It was mentioned that a PPT was done or correctly was it a dealer transfer?
If it was a true PPT then you were overcharged... But if it was a dealer that was bought from and not someone walking around with the gun selling it the the fees were appropriate as it was not a PPT but a dealer purchase,
FFL to FFL fees can be high but if it was a private party then a mistake was made.

dfletcher
04-17-2011, 5:13 PM
Here's something I just noticed.
The OP said that they went to the show and they found a long Hun that they liked.
What was not mentioned was if this was a private party sale or a dealer?
It was mentioned that a PPT was done or correctly was it a dealer transfer?
If it was a true PPT then you were overcharged... But if it was a dealer that was bought from and not someone walking around with the gun selling it the the fees were appropriate as it was not a PPT but a dealer purchase,
FFL to FFL fees can be high but if it was a private party then a mistake was made.

This was a private party transfer - a PPT. Not a dealer to dealer transfer. A plain old "person to person, both present, both CA resident". PPT.

hill billy
04-17-2011, 5:58 PM
The DOJ won't do jack because they are anti-gun and do not care one bit about this issue, IMHO.

You are totally wrong. I had an issue with this recently and received a call within 30 minutes from the time I filed my complaint seeking to resolve it. The DOJ was all over it.

glockwise2000
04-17-2011, 6:04 PM
-Pay the FFL the PPT fees (DROS + service fee + any applicable tax)

What "any applicable tax"? I have never heard of a PPT being charged of tax, either sales or user.

I know if the firearms is coming from OOS, FFL dealers are charging user tax as a compliance to BOE.

If item is being sold by the in-state FFL, then it is sales tax.

Sounds like FUD??? Correct me if I am wrong.

thedrickel
04-17-2011, 6:07 PM
You are totally wrong. I had an issue with this recently and received a call within 30 minutes from the time I filed my complaint seeking to resolve it. The DOJ was all over it.

Good to know. I'm happy to be wrong about this one :)

ke6guj
04-17-2011, 6:07 PM
What "any applicable tax"? I have never heard of a PPT being charged of tax, either sales or user.

I know if the firearms is coming from OOS, FFL dealers are charging user tax as a compliance to BOE.

If item is being sold by the in-state FFL, then it is sales tax.

Sounds like FUD??? Correct me if I am wrong.

IIRC, any dealer fees that may be charged are considered to be taxable.

Labor never used to be taxable, but the BOE has continually nibbled away at that exemption.

IrishPirate
04-17-2011, 6:18 PM
if the receipt says DROS-$80, then it's illegal. If he got charged $35 for DROS and $45 for dealer fees, that's not illegal. DROS can't be more than $35 for single gun PPT's, but they can charge any other rediculous fees they want. Some gun shops charge $100+ for internet purchases....you're still paying the legal DROS fees, they just added some other surcharges. as long as they were smart and split the fee on the receipt to show DROS $35 and $45 for the rest, it's fully legit.

ke6guj
04-17-2011, 6:30 PM
if the receipt says DROS-$80, then it's illegal. If he got charged $35 for DROS and $45 for dealer fees, that's not illegal. DROS can't be more than $35 for single gun PPT's, but they can charge any other rediculous fees they want. Some gun shops charge $100+ for internet purchases....you're still paying the legal DROS fees, they just added some other surcharges. as long as they were smart and split the fee on the receipt to show DROS $35 and $45 for the rest, it's fully legit.not on a PPT, it isn't. you can only charge $10 in dealer fees for a single-gun PPT,


12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The fee that the department may charge is the fee that would be applicable pursuant to Section 12076, if the dealer was selling, transferring, or delivering a firearm to a purchaser or transferee or a person being loaned a firearm, without any other parties being involved in the transaction.

I agree that a dealer can charge whatever they want for a non-PPT transfer, provided that it is invoiced as $25 DROS and the dealer fee listed separately. Just listing the total cost as one number, where it might be construed that all that money is going to the state is not rignt.

glockwise2000
04-17-2011, 6:30 PM
IIRC, any dealer fees that may be charged are considered to be taxable.

Labor never used to be taxable, but the BOE has continually nibbled away at that exemption.

Yikes. So that means BOE has ordered FFL dealers to charge tax on PPT itself?

hill billy
04-17-2011, 6:33 PM
Good to know. I'm happy to be wrong about this one :)

Sorry about the way I phrased that, I was a little harsh. :o

ke6guj
04-17-2011, 7:09 PM
Yikes. So that means BOE has ordered FFL dealers to charge tax on PPT itself?

I'm looking for it right now, but can't find the BOE letter on this.

here's where it says that the dealer fee is taxable for out-of-state transfers,

495.0843 Deliveries by California Firearm Dealers for Out-of-State Retailers.
California residents order firearms from out-of-state retailers and the retailers
ship the firearms to an authorized California firearm dealer for delivery to the
customer. The California firearm dealer charges a fee to register each firearm in
California.
When the California firearm dealer completes the registration paperwork and
delivers a firearm to a California purchaser for an out-of-state retailer not
registered with the Board as a retailer engaged in business in this state, it is
presumed that the firearm dealer is the retailer of the firearm under the second
paragraph of section 6007. In such a case, the firearm dealer would owe sales tax
on the total amount of the retail sales price of the gun to the customer, including
the Department of Justice fee if passed on to the customer, and including any
service charge made by the firearm dealer.
If the firearm dealer establishes to the satisfaction of the Board that the
out-of-state retailer was engaged in business in this state under section 6203, its
deliveries for that retailer will not be considered taxable retail sales by the firearm
dealer, even if the out-of-state retailer has not registered with the Board as a
retailer engaged in business in this state. In such cases, as well as in situations in
which the retailer is in fact registered as a retailer engaged in business in this
state, the out-of-state retailer has a duty to collect the use tax under section 6203.
The retailer should collect use tax on the invoice price of the firearm, plus the
service fee, even if paid directly to the firearm dealer by the customer. Also, the
Department of Justice fee passed onto the customer should be included in the
measure of tax. 12/7/95. (Am. 99–2).
(Note: On and after January 1, 1999, the Department of Justice fee is not
includible in the measure of tax, but all other charges remain subject to tax.)

jtmkinsd
04-17-2011, 8:28 PM
Transfer fees on PPTs are non taxable. FFL fees are taxable on dealer sales/transfers only. If you have to pay sales tax on the firearm...you have to pay sales tax on the transfer fee.

ke6guj
04-17-2011, 8:32 PM
thanks for the clarification. I knew that on the $5 dealer fee that a local dealer charges for dealer sales was taxed on the invoice, but wasn't sure if it applied to PPTs as well.

jtmkinsd
04-17-2011, 8:41 PM
I had a really long discussion with an actually very nice lady from BOE's legal branch...she gave me the clarification. There's some really stupid stuff that goes along with the tax deal too though. If I have a taxable gun on 10 day wait, and someone wants me to change out the sights while they wait, I have to charge tax on the labor. If they wait until after they pick it up, then have me change the sights, the labor is non taxable.

Ain't California great?

Blackhawk556
04-17-2011, 10:50 PM
Since we're talking about fees, I bought a gun last month and paid taxes, dros$25, and a $10 dros admin fee. Why haven't I paid this before at other shops when I purchased guns? I thought it was crap but I had to anyways. Is the $10 dros admin fee legal????

ke6guj
04-17-2011, 10:59 PM
yes, it is legal, as long as it is explained as a dealer fee, and not passed off as a state fee.

for a non-PPT transfer/sale,
17.What fees can I charge in addition to the DROS?
In addition to the State's $19.00 DROS fee, you must also charge a $1.00 Firearms Safety Testing fee and a $5.00 Safety and Enforcement fee. If the transaction being processed is a dealer sale, consignment return, or return from pawn, you may impose other charges as long as this amount is clearly shown as a "dealer fee" and not misrepresented as a State fee.

(PC sections 12071(b)(11), (12))

for a PPT transfer,
18.What fees can I charge for handling a Private Party Transfer (PPT)?
If the transaction is a PPT, you are restricted to charging no more than $25.00 in State fees described and $10.00 per firearm for conducting the PPT. For example:

a.For a PPT involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees are $35.00 for the first handgun, and $31.00 for each subsequent handgun.
b.For PPTs involving one or more long guns, the State fees are limited to $25.00 for the whole transaction plus $10.00 dealer fee per firearm transferred.
(PC section 12082)

Blackhawk556
04-17-2011, 11:33 PM
I think it's crap. They rip off people big time at this gun store. The day before I bought the gun they quoted me $660, the next day I went in with the money and the price went up $10. When I asked what was the difference the guy said well everything is normal. That's when I saw the new dros admin fee. "The range" in Fresno is the store that rips off people, I mean that charged me the fee ;).

Droc101
04-17-2011, 11:35 PM
last time I did a FTF/PPT at GG arms it was 35.00...

People have a choice to not deal with over priced FFL's and their transfer fee's.

What I have trouble understanding is a FFL has to purchase and log in their books the rifles and pistols they display in their business, you pay the 25.00 dros when you purchase...

but if you wanted to bring in the exact same pistol from down south or out of state they want 50-125.00 to handle the transaction..WHY??

Why are those fees' not DOJ regulated?

Because the $25 dros fee does not go to the dealer. You purchased your firearm from someone else, had it shipped to an ffl here, where as they are expected to log the firearm, contact you, file the paperwork adn retain it for life, all the while taking time away from customers that want to actually spend money with them, and you expect them to do this for free? FFLs have to keep their doors open somehow adn if not through the sale of the products they have, then through the fees for storing your firearm, running the paperwork, dealing with the DOJ and ATF, and keeping records for as long as they live.

Droc101
04-17-2011, 11:37 PM
I think it's crap. They rip off people big time at this gun store. The day before I bought the gun they quoted me $660, the next day I went in with the money and the price went up $10. When I asked what was the difference the guy said well everything is normal. That's when I saw the new dros admin fee. "The range" in Fresno is the store that rips off people, I mean that charged me the fee ;).

DOJ actually came to our store and requested that we charge this 10 dollar fee on all dros's not sure if this is something that is being suggested to other shops or not, but i would say expect it to be happening a lot more often. It is used as a way to offset the costs of paperwork storage and printer ink purchases.

rromeo
04-18-2011, 6:23 AM
I'm not trying to bust someone, as the fees actually look reasonable. One Bay Area gun store has a PPT fee schedule on their website. Of course, a PPT is $25 for the state, and they charge the extra $10, no problem. They have a price listed for additional guns. Any additional long gun transfer is $10 plus $15 storage and insurance. Any additional handgun is $15 plus $15 storage and insurance. Is that legal?

Serpentine
04-18-2011, 10:04 AM
Transfer fees on PPTs are non taxable. FFL fees are taxable on dealer sales/transfers only. If you have to pay sales tax on the firearm...you have to pay sales tax on the transfer fee.

Interesting....there seems to be yet another conflict between state law, and the US Supreme Court decision handed down in Murdock vs. Pennsylvania...that "A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution."

You would think that the 2A would have as much preferential treatment (if not more), than the right to freedom of Press, Freedom of Religion, and Freedom of Speech. Without the right to 24/7 personal defense, you cannot freely enjoy any rights at all. Multitudes of unprotected citizens have been killed for what they said or expressed, or for what religion they believed in.

erik
04-18-2011, 11:43 AM
I'm not trying to bust someone, as the fees actually look reasonable. One Bay Area gun store has a PPT fee schedule on their website. Of course, a PPT is $25 for the state, and they charge the extra $10, no problem. They have a price listed for additional guns. Any additional long gun transfer is $10 plus $15 storage and insurance. Any additional handgun is $15 plus $15 storage and insurance. Is that legal?

This would be the one that has
"No private party transfers from 11 AM to 2:30 PM."
listed as well?

A quick check of some of the other major ones shows that they don't actually list their fee schedule on their website. A web listing would be nice, as it could be considered "Conspicuous" in this modern age. (Not that it would necessary be legally conspicuous.)

I'm thinking rather than going off to the BoF, etc, that maybe a sort of sunshine initiative is in order?

cmichini
04-18-2011, 11:53 AM
Just to be clear.

This was a PPT where both parties were present and lawful residents of California and neither is a licensed firearms dealer?

Also, is it clear in the DOJ regulations that acting as a transfer dealer at a gunshow is the same as at their registered place of business?

Maybe their interpretation of the law is there is a difference.

Anyone know what they charge at their registered business address?

I would have to agree with them if they said there is a difference.

It would cost them a lot more to collect the firearm at the show, carry it to their vehicles, drive them to their shop, carry them into their business. Then of course there is the additional risk for them in assuming responsibility for these firearms at a gunshow by the sunnydale projects (AKA Injun territories).

I could agree, unless it is expressly forbidden by law, that charging more for a gunshow transfer is not robbery.

Is the higher fee for PPT robbery? No. Is it illegal? Yes.

Problem with the argument is that the fee is not 'cost + $$$'. It is a fixed dollar amount, dictated by LAW. Plus if they sell arms they are required by law to do PPT's. I don't believe there's mention of a gun show exemption from the dictated PPT fees, so absent of any language a gun show is just another, short term, retail location for the licensee and all other rules apply.

The economics of doing a gun show PPT are unfortunate, but maybe they should bring more goodies, price them to sell and they will not only make more money, they may gain customers from doing PPT. Or they can complain to the mongoloid retards that write the laws for putting undue restrictions on their ability to affect commerce.

Until they get the law changed, it is what it is, and they should be bound to obey it or get rid of their license if they don't.

JMO

Serpentine
04-18-2011, 12:17 PM
Did you know that CA sheriff and police departments used to do these PPT's? The state shut that down because of staffing and overhead costs complaints from the departments...not to mention that it was discovered that doing PPT's was well beyond a clerk's capacity to keep up with the intricacies of the laws and the accuracy of the paperwork.

.

jtmkinsd
04-18-2011, 12:32 PM
Interesting....there seems to be yet another conflict between state law, and the US Supreme Court decision handed down in Murdock vs. Pennsylvania...that "A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution."

This is the whole problem in a nutshell. The right isn't "granted" by a piece of paper. :rolleyes:

Serpentine
04-18-2011, 1:09 PM
The economics of doing a gun show PPT are unfortunate, but maybe they should bring more goodies, price them to sell and they will not only make more money, they may gain customers from doing PPT. Or they can complain to the mongoloid retards that write the laws for putting undue restrictions on their ability to affect commerce.

Until they get the law changed, it is what it is, and they should be bound to obey it or get rid of their license if they don't.

JMO

There aren't that many FFL's in CA. They are not rich enough to hire a battery of lawyers to make significant changes in state law.

When you say "they," but don't include yourself in the mix, nothing will change the laws for the good of "We the People" in this state.

And yes you are right, if the CA FFL's cannot abide by CA laws or affect business due to undue restrictions, they can give up their license to retail sales within CA, or even better, should do one-way, out-of-CA state interstate business only, FFL to FFL.

.

mhho
04-21-2011, 7:22 PM
I'll keep this short & to the point to avoid the usual commentary. I'm interested only in whether the fee is legal or not legal.


Any updates on the fee refund request? May be this letter will help:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

dfletcher
04-21-2011, 8:19 PM
Any updates on the fee refund request? May be this letter will help:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

Pick up date is next Tuesday or Wednesday - I'll post result (and if I don't maybe someone will remind ....?):o

dfletcher
05-13-2011, 4:28 PM
Well here's the end result of dealing with Golden Gate Guns & DROS.

Friend went there last Saturday and the store was closed - a sign was up that they were closed until 12 May & pick ups were by appointment only. Phone messages left Mon, Tues & Wed were not returned so he just showed up there about 30 minutes ago & was told the same old line about "gun show handling fee" and that the "DOJ said it's OK". No names from DOJ, nothing cited - just the same old line. Considering how long it took to just get through their door my friend's approach was to take his gun, call them liars, get the heck out & never return.

They said they did transfers on about 200 guns from the show. If that's accurate instead of about $2K in fees pocketed they got $11K. (charging $35.00 ($25.00 to the state & $10.00 in their pocket, they did $80.00 ($25.00 to the state and $55.00 in their pocket) No mystery as to why the charge was hiked.

I'm told they had very little inventory at the store.

When I contacted Crossroads of the West at the start of this they stated they were concerned & wanted to ensure CA law was complied with - I've attached a link to their web page, I am going to politely write them & request they ensure a CA FFL is present who will charge the correct fees and that signage be posted regarding fees allowed by law. If anyone else would like to do the same maybe we get to solve this issue on our own.

http://crossroadsgunshows.com/

Serpentine
05-13-2011, 7:10 PM
From the other side of the table. Nothing in the CA penal code, or the BATFE code says an 01FFL MUST do business within the state of California.

If you've been on both sides of the table; consumer, then 01FFL in CA, competing with out-of-state dealer pricing, you would quickly understand the situation.

200 PPT's = 200 hours of work at the absolute (Fair Weather Sunday) minimum. What you don't see is the PPT's that go sideways because of the background checks, dealing with retail customers, inventory control, licensing, compliance, and inspection costs and time, phone calls, etc., etc.

Walk a mile in a dealer's shoes and you'll get it loud and clear.

Best bet for consumers is to know up front what your transfer dealer's requirements are BEFORE you make an impulse deal in the isle of a gun show.

.

Librarian
05-13-2011, 7:22 PM
From the other side of the table. Nothing in the CA penal code, or the BATFE code says an 01FFL MUST do business within the state of California..
Of course - you're free to move out of state and restart your gun business in a better business and regulatory climate. Wouldn't blame a business owner a bit if he/she chose to do that.

I suppose you could choose to do business only with out of state customers; that would be an interesting business model.

But if you choose to stay in CA and maintain your license, and sell guns to CA residents, PC does require an FFL to handle PPTs for guns he/she sells, and does place a hard limit on the fees it is legal to charge. (PC 12082(a)).

Feel free to write your legislator and explain you can't stay in business if compelled to handle PPTs for just $10.

Serpentine
05-13-2011, 7:50 PM
I suppose you could choose to do business only with out of state customers; that would be an interesting business model.

Yes, an ideal business model.

But if you choose to stay in CA and maintain your license, and sell guns to CA residents, PC does require an FFL to handle PPTs for guns he/she sells, and does place a hard limit on the fees it is legal to charge. (PC 12082(a)).

Yes - IF you choose to sell guns to CA residents.

Feel free to write your legislator and explain you can't stay in business if compelled to handle PPTs for just $10.

Yes, however, you too can feel free to write your legislator and explain why you cannot find an FFL doing business in CA.


.

dfletcher
05-13-2011, 7:54 PM
From the other side of the table. Nothing in the CA penal code, or the BATFE code says an 01FFL MUST do business within the state of California.

If you've been on both sides of the table; consumer, then 01FFL in CA, competing with out-of-state dealer pricing, you would quickly understand the situation.

200 PPT's = 200 hours of work at the absolute (Fair Weather Sunday) minimum. What you don't see is the PPT's that go sideways because of the background checks, dealing with retail customers, inventory control, licensing, compliance, and inspection costs and time, phone calls, etc., etc.

Walk a mile in a dealer's shoes and you'll get it loud and clear.

Best bet for consumers is to know up front what your transfer dealer's requirements are BEFORE you make an impulse deal in the isle of a gun show.



I agree with you that posting fees is the way to go - posting the legally allowed fees. I would go for no state mandated fees, let the market dictate - but I don't want someone screwing me, lying and taking me for a numb nuts under the current system.

So with all due respect and I appreciate the other take (oh, oh ....;)) I'm a touch worn out on the rationalizations for breaking the law and screwing gun owners - because that's what was done. Instead of charging about $2K an extra $9K was pocketed (again, if their numbers were accurate) for the transfers. If folks were caught doing this with smog checks people would have a fit.

I've worked in a gun store and in my current field I have to deal with clients and unions and the City and the state and so on. Doing business is a PITA, but rules are rules. I play by the rules, kind of expect others will do the same.

bigcalidave
05-13-2011, 8:58 PM
Bs. If you want to do business in ca as an ffl this is part of the deal. Pissing off 200 people (ripping off) at a gun show who probably don't know better is offensive. Do we really have to add some flyers to our gun show booths that explain the maximum fees??

Serpentine, once they agree to do the transaction the ffl needs to follow the law. There is no other side of the table.

dfletcher
05-13-2011, 9:44 PM
Bs. If you want to do business in ca as an ffl this is part of the deal. Pissing off 200 people (ripping off) at a gun show who probably don't know better is offensive. Do we really have to add some flyers to our gun show booths that explain the maximum fees??

Serpentine, once they agree to do the transaction the ffl needs to follow the law. There is no other side of the table.

I think that's a fine idea and one the promoter could participate in - there's only one way into the show, if they can post a "No Video" sign they can post one that lists the legally allowed fees. The promoter and other vendors would benefit too - money not spent on these higher fees could be spent on other products at the show. I should think the promoter would have an interest in this being done.