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AvyDriver
04-16-2011, 3:09 AM
So in a conversation with someone regarding home builds he stated that building an AR yourself constitutes an assault rifle. Now from my reading here that is not true. As long as the flow chart is followed it is CA legal. Am I correct? He also was stating that Ca DOJ doesn't recognize bullet buttons. Am I correct in believing this is all FUD or did something change?


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aklover_91
04-16-2011, 3:36 AM
DoJ refuses to make any statements regarding the legality of thingsl ike bullet buttons, but they do satisfy the letter of the law, and there is nothing illegal about building an off list gun up on your own.

Your buddy is full of s***.

Purple K
04-16-2011, 3:40 AM
Friends don't let friends spread FUD. Get your friend to sign up on Calguns.

AvyDriver
04-16-2011, 3:47 AM
Not a friend just someone who ended up in our conversation somehow.


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jtmkinsd
04-16-2011, 11:02 AM
Tell him ignorance is no excuse. DOJ doesn't "recognize" anything...the BB makes the platform a fixed magazine firearm...period. Build to your hearts content...free from the FUD fears of the uneducated around you. :43:

CHS
04-16-2011, 11:20 AM
That person is an ignoramus and has no idea what they are talking about.

CSACANNONEER
04-16-2011, 11:34 AM
Homebuilds can be configured in such ways as to make them AWs in CA. But, they can also be configured in ways which keeps them from meeting Ca's definition of an AW.

While DOJ has not issued any statement regarding BBs (in pre BB days, they did issue opinion letters regarding some fixed mag lowers), there was an infamous DOJ "firearms expert" who went on national television. He demonstrated and explained why a BB is legal in California. So, while your friend is sort of correct, there is at least one example of a DOJ "expert" who VERY publicly acknowledged their legality.

goober
04-16-2011, 11:58 AM
the only lowers that are AW's by nature, BEFORE being assembled into a working firearm, are listed lowers.
homebuilds are not listed (nor can they be). therefore they can only be part of a potential AW by "evil" features or illegal configurations that are added. build featureless or use a BB & < 11 rd mag, and as long as no other transgressions exist, then an AW it is not.

AvyDriver
04-16-2011, 12:36 PM
Ok dumb question that for some reason I just realized I am not aware of. Are forward vertical grips legal if a BB is used. I think I know but I'd rather know know then be ignorant.

Btw you guys want to know the best part of this story? The guy who was saying this is a LEO and he was saying it because he didn't want his guns taken away so he didn't go a certain place because he "heard" they practice this way. I just told him he needed to educate himself and come here. I also spouted off what you guys are all saying because I've read it so many times here. He wasn't combative just looked surprised. I also told him if that happens he needed to get ahold of the calguns lawyers ASAP. That was the right thing to tell him correct?


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CSACANNONEER
04-16-2011, 12:56 PM
VFG are legal on any fixed mag, semi auto, centerfire rifle and all rimfire rifle. However, they are not legal on pistols.

This LEO really does need to learn the law. I have helped many Federal, state and local LEOs manufacture their own non AW firearms. Of course, for some strange reason, there seem to be a lot of LASD officers and the entire LAPD gun task force that thinks all homebuilt guns are illegal period. I really wish their depts. would give them all a quick tutorial on the subject. I'm not trying to bash any LEOs. I'm just speaking from personal experiences and personal knowledge of cases like BWO's and Don A's. Also, the LEOS on this forum obviously know the law or, at least, know how to find out about all applicable laws quickly.

C&Rtrader
04-16-2011, 1:57 PM
Friends don't let friends spread FUD. Get your friend to sign up on Calguns.



^^^- best answer! :)

CHS
04-16-2011, 2:24 PM
Flowchart.
Flowchart.
Flowchart.

All of these questions have been hashed out for YEARS on this board. The flowcharts at the top of the screen spell it out clear as day.

Ford8N
04-16-2011, 4:37 PM
VFG are legal on any fixed mag, semi auto, centerfire rifle and all rimfire rifle. However, they are not legal on pistols.

This LEO really does need to learn the law. I have helped many Federal, state and local LEOs manufacture their own non AW firearms. Of course, for some strange reason, there seem to be a lot of LASD officers and the entire LAPD gun task force that thinks all homebuilt guns are illegal period. I really wish their depts. would give them all a quick tutorial on the subject. I'm not trying to bash any LEOs. I'm just speaking from personal experiences and personal knowledge of cases like BWO's and Don A's. Also, the LEOS on this forum obviously know the law or, at least, know how to find out about all applicable laws quickly.

Why would they be want to arrest someone only to have them freeed because the charges were false? That costs the tax payer a lot of money and ties up LEOs time when they should be arresting real bad guys. I don't understand the motive.

WeRmany
04-16-2011, 5:55 PM
The simplest way to resolve the DOJ no comment issue is to find dealer that sells OLLs or properly configured whole guns and ask them when their last DOJ audit was and if that type of gun was in the store at the time.

DOJ might not tell you it's OK, but they regularly roll through stores that sell them and say nothing.

Seeker
04-16-2011, 6:02 PM
So in a conversation with someone regarding home builds he stated that building an AR yourself constitutes an assault rifle. Now from my reading here that is not true. As long as the flow chart is followed it is CA legal. Am I correct? He also was stating that Ca DOJ doesn't recognize bullet buttons. Am I correct in believing this is all FUD or did something change?


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:fud:

12voltguy
04-16-2011, 6:25 PM
VFG are legal on any fixed mag, semi auto, centerfire rifle and all rimfire rifle. However, they are not legal on pistols.

This LEO really does need to learn the law. I have helped many Federal, state and local LEOs manufacture their own non AW firearms. Of course, for some strange reason, there seem to be a lot of LASD officers and the entire LAPD gun task force that thinks all homebuilt guns are illegal period. I really wish their depts. would give them all a quick tutorial on the subject. I'm not trying to bash any LEOs. I'm just speaking from personal experiences and personal knowledge of cases like BWO's and Don A's. Also, the LEOS on this forum obviously know the law or, at least, know how to find out about all applicable laws quickly.

Yes but the AFG,angle grips are ok on pistols
ATF has a letter:)

12voltguy
04-16-2011, 6:28 PM
Tell him there are at least 300,000 legal BB AR15s in ca now
+ who knows how many home builds
I have several home builds & will be building many more
ar rifles & pistols
10-22
mac 10
MK2 ruger
ak47
I have more fun building machining parts then shooting:)

goober
04-16-2011, 6:50 PM
Tell him there are at least 300,000 legal BB AR15s in ca now
+ who knows how many home builds
I have several home builds & will be building many more
ar rifles & pistols
10-22
mac 10
MK2 ruger
ak47
I have more fun building machining parts then shooting:)

it occurs to me that perhaps what the OP calls a "homebuild" may be different from what we're thinking of... :confused:

i believe we are on the same page, and are speaking of starting w/ an 80% or 0% or even billet, or a flat, depending on the platform. NOT simply assembling purchased parts.

G1500
04-16-2011, 7:07 PM
it occurs to me that perhaps what the OP calls a "homebuild" may be different from what we're thinking of... :confused:

i believe we are on the same page, and are speaking of starting w/ an 80% or 0% or even billet, or a flat, depending on the platform.

That's what I was thinking.

Either way, it's legal.

12voltguy
04-16-2011, 7:34 PM
That's what I was thinking.

Either way, it's legal.

yup
as long as done as per law, no problem + real fun to build things;)

goober
04-16-2011, 7:37 PM
That's what I was thinking.

Either way, it's legal.

yup
as long as done as per law, no problem + real fun to build things;)

agreed on all counts :D

AvyDriver
04-16-2011, 7:53 PM
As for homebuild I meant by a stripped lower, lpk and all other parts to make my lower. Then do it again with the upper. No 80%ers that is beyond my ability. Thanks for all the answers you guys.


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Meplat
04-16-2011, 8:01 PM
Intimidation is the only logical motive. They are intimidating people out of exercising their rights. The money waisted is all yours not theirs. On both sides of the ball.

Why would they be want to arrest someone only to have them freeed because the charges were false? That costs the tax payer a lot of money and ties up LEOs time when they should be arresting real bad guys. I don't understand the motive.

goober
04-16-2011, 8:15 PM
As for homebuild I meant by a stripped lower, lpk and all other parts to make my lower. Then do it again with the upper. No 80%ers that is beyond my ability. Thanks for all the answers you guys.


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same rules apply, except that in addition the lower you use must not be listed as an AW by name, which of course is a non-issue if you make it yourself.

sfbadger
04-16-2011, 8:37 PM
the only lowers that are AW's by nature, BEFORE being assembled into a working firearm, are listed lowers.

Are you stating that if you own a stripped, bare bones, Colt AR lower, it is illegal? I know a listed, unregistered, Colt AR-15 is considered an AW but I've never read that Colt lowers alone are AW's.

G1500
04-16-2011, 8:49 PM
Are you stating that if you own a stripped, bare bones, Colt AR lower, it is illegal? I know a listed, unregistered, Colt AR-15 is considered an AW but I've never read that Colt lowers alone are AW's.

You may want to get rid of that ASAP.

That is of course if you don't want any AW charges filed against you.

greasemonkey
04-16-2011, 8:55 PM
Are you stating that if you own a stripped, bare bones, Colt AR lower, it is illegal? I know a listed, unregistered, Colt AR-15 is considered an AW but I've never read that Colt lowers alone are AW's.
Welcome to California, sir, now you understand how our advanced "common sense gun control" laws are preventing mass-gunman-crimes. Yes, possessing a lower receiver on The List in CA that hasn't been registered as an AW before the AW ban is illegal to own/possess. While an "Off List Lower" (OLL) that is identical in every way other than the data on the side, is no different than buying a .22 at Big 5.



Why would they be want to arrest someone only to have them freeed because the charges were false? That costs the tax payer a lot of money and ties up LEOs time when they should be arresting real bad guys. I don't understand the motive.
Intimidation is the only logical motive. They are intimidating people out of exercising their rights. The money waisted is all yours not theirs. On both sides of the ball.
THIS^^. Ford8N, it's more a matter of results and not foil-hat speculation on this one. There continues to be quite a bit of OLL/feature related problems with LASD/LAPD/LA Gun Unit et al with regard to intensely harassing legal OLL owners...sure it's slowed down lately but it's more like the ocean being at low tide.

sfbadger
04-16-2011, 9:00 PM
You may want to get rid of that ASAP.

That is of course if you don't want any AW charges filed against you.

I don't own one, I was merely asking the question!

If I asked a legal question about a car being stolen, would you assume that I am a car thief?

G1500
04-16-2011, 9:06 PM
I don't own one, I was merely asking the question!

Understood. If you happen to find one, or a friend has or finds one, leave it be.

greasemonkey
04-16-2011, 9:43 PM
So in a conversation with someone regarding home builds he stated that building an AR yourself constitutes an assault rifle. Now from my reading here that is not true. As long as the flow chart is followed it is CA legal. Am I correct? He also was stating that Ca DOJ doesn't recognize bullet buttons. Am I correct in believing this is all FUD or did something change?


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Here's an excellent thread in the Gunsmithing & How To (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=114) sub-forum on Homebuilt Firearms - Serial Numbers and other issues (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=114) regarding legality. There are some other very informative threads there in the Gunsmithing sub-forum, stickied at the top of the page.

CSACANNONEER
04-16-2011, 10:47 PM
Why would they be want to arrest someone only to have them freeed because the charges were false? That costs the tax payer a lot of money and ties up LEOs time when they should be arresting real bad guys. I don't understand the motive.

A lot of fishermen spend a lot of time and money just to "catch and release". Maybe, some LEOs think the same. Anyway, I'm thinking about all the time and taxpayer money wasted on cases like BWO and Don A. I think some task forces would rather spend their manpower arresting law abiding citizens than putting their lives at risk by arresting real "dangerous criminals".

AvyDriver
04-17-2011, 7:22 AM
A lot of fishermen spend a lot of time and money just to "catch and release". Maybe, some LEOs think the same. Anyway, I'm thinking about all the time and taxpayer money wasted on cases like BWO and Don A. I think some task forces would rather spend their manpower arresting law abiding citizens than putting their lives at risk by arresting real "dangerous criminals".

I'll try to clear the air a little more on this mentality. Most of the time the officer/deputies know thru what they are taught. Whether it be from their academy (which laws may have changed since yet they have never been re-taught) or in their morning briefs. They do what they are told by their sergeants who are told by their management. It's not necessarily correct such as in these cases but they do as they are told and many take it as the gospel and are to lazy to learn the right way. So it usually isn't an individual being an *** just to be one. That's why you see it with an entire department.


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G1500
04-17-2011, 10:11 AM
I'll try to clear the air a little more on this mentality. Most of the time the officer/deputies know thru what they are taught. Whether it be from their academy (which laws may have changed since yet they have never been re-taught) or in their morning briefs. They do what they are told by their sergeants who are told by their management. It's not necessarily correct such as in these cases but they do as they are told and many take it as the gospel and are to lazy to learn the right way. So it usually isn't an individual being an *** just to be one. That's why you see it with an entire department.


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So, they are being an a*s because they are lazy?

greasemonkey
04-17-2011, 10:37 AM
So, they are being an a*s because they are lazy?

It's all so clear now :)

Even the LE Academies here in the gun-totin Central Valley repetitively teach that "man with a gun" is bad, dangerous, 'probably' illegal and so-on. I've had more than one friend and fellow 'country boy' come out the other side of the academy believing that 'citizens' shouldn't have guns because only military & police have the ability/preparedness to carry/use firearms in public. I b****-slapped them before they were sworn ociffers and straightened 'em out :)