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sreiter
04-14-2011, 5:56 PM
sorry, i know this has been gone over a 1000x, i searched but couldn't come up with the right results

arguing with a LA cop on another board who says you must id self, and it's legal/fine whatever to run the serial numbers.....

i know on this board both are supposed to be no-no

he's citing hibel.... help me prove him wrong

thanks

Bargearse
04-14-2011, 6:00 PM
California is not a stop and identify state unless driving a motor vehicle.

E-check authorizes cops to inspect, but not requires them to do. It's an optional. .

Looking for serial and runs it would be illegal. Let me find cite for this

sreiter
04-14-2011, 6:04 PM
hibble says different - unless a e-check isn't detainment

and yes, i' m aware ca isn't s stop and id state, unless you're detained

GrizzlyGuy
04-14-2011, 6:08 PM
See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3254465&postcount=44) (about stop-and-ID) and see here (http://www.opencarryradio.com/documents/Sunnyvale_California_Memo_18_Sep_09.pdf) about checking serial numbers during an e-check:

The following guidelines should be followed:

We can INSPECT the weapon. They must comply. If not, arrest for 12031 (e). If the serial number is in plain view you may conduct a records check. You can arrest if 537(e) or 12090 is applicable. You cannot search for the serial number.

sandman21
04-14-2011, 6:17 PM
hibble says different - unless a e-check isn't detainment

and yes, i' m aware ca isn't s stop and id state, unless you're detained

Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiibel_v._Sixth_Judicial_District_Court_of_Nevada)

Hiibel applies to states that have stop and id statues, which CA does not. You are not required to ID yourself unless you are being citied, arrested, or driving.

I still don't think they can run serial's, plain view my ***, I guess if a LEO sees my credit cards he can run them to see if I am the owner. :rolleyes:

sreiter
04-14-2011, 6:18 PM
thx


exactly what i was looking for

sreiter
04-14-2011, 6:27 PM
you guys ROCK - i know i read all this, just didnt bookmark it.... i was arguing these points (except hibble was overturned) just needed more, hard facts

sreiter
04-14-2011, 6:39 PM
question

does check rise to the level of terry stop? if not, why not

choprzrul
04-14-2011, 6:48 PM
Just carry a Llama Comanche III .357. It has the serial number under the grip. That ought to get their panties all twisted up.

.

sreiter
04-14-2011, 6:50 PM
Just carry a Llama Comanche III .357. It has the serial number under the grip. That ought to get their panties all twisted up.

.

:D :D :D

sandman21
04-14-2011, 6:57 PM
question

does check rise to the level of terry stop? if not, why not

An e-check violates a persons 4A rights. It comes from the court believing that guns a special and the 4A does not apply.
People v. DeLong (http://www.lawlink.com/research/CaseLevel3/48376)

sreiter
04-14-2011, 7:13 PM
An e-check violates a persons 4A rights. It comes from the court believing that guns a special and the 4A does not apply.
People v. DeLong (http://www.lawlink.com/research/CaseLevel3/48376)

according to that, they say a (e) is for a single purpose..seeing if the gun is loaded. period...seems like a case for them not being allowed to run the serial even in plain view

greg36f
04-14-2011, 7:37 PM
according to that, they say a (e) is for a single purpose..seeing if the gun is loaded. period...seems like a case for them not being allowed to run the serial even in plain view

Just about anything in "plain view" is good to go. They just cannot detain you while they run it. They can remember it or call it out to their buddies. then run it after you are gone.

In short, running it is legal, detaining you while they run it; no good.

greg36f
04-14-2011, 7:39 PM
question

does check rise to the level of terry stop? if not, why not


ATerry stop is an investigative stop.

A E-Check is a compliance check. When the gun is confiemed as unloaded; it is done. No further investigation needed or warranted.

sreiter
04-14-2011, 7:49 PM
thx

bsim
04-14-2011, 7:56 PM
I've always wondered about this: 12031 (e) says:...Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.So if you refuse an e-check (where they are "checking to see if you're violating 12031 (carrying a loaded weapon)), what happens after arrest when they find you're carrying UNloaded?

Free to go?

Dutch3
04-14-2011, 8:33 PM
What happens when they "decide" to run the SN on a firearm that is exempt from registration?

Will you get cuffed and stuffed until they realize they f****d up?

greg36f
04-14-2011, 8:41 PM
I've always wondered about this: 12031 (e) says:So if you refuse an e-check (where they are "checking to see if you're violating 12031 (carrying a loaded weapon)), what happens after arrest when they find you're carrying UNloaded?

Free to go?

No, they would probably hook you for 148 PC. That crime was complete before the gun is discovered to be unloaded and stands independent of the e-check.

Theseus
04-14-2011, 8:45 PM
I've always wondered about this: 12031 (e) says:So if you refuse an e-check (where they are "checking to see if you're violating 12031 (carrying a loaded weapon)), what happens after arrest when they find you're carrying UNloaded?

Free to go?Essentially. If you refuse, they arrest you. They inspect, and then they have to release you. The only question is, now that you are under arrest, they can REALLY go fishing.

That is why I say we should all refuse "e" and make them arrest us so that we have them constantly violating our rights.

DeLong says its constitutional because it is only an inspection. . . But arresting you as a compulsion to wave your right and agree to an illegal search can't possibly be legal.

What happens when they "decide" to run the SN on a firearm that is exempt from registration?

Will you get cuffed and stuffed until they realize they f****d up?

No, it is not illegal to have a gun that isn't registered to you. They would have to actually have reason to believe that it is stolen to mean anything. The only time registration matters is if you are illegally concealing, as it is a sentence enhancement.

greg36f
04-14-2011, 8:47 PM
What happens when they "decide" to run the SN on a firearm that is exempt from registration?

Will you get cuffed and stuffed until they realize they f****d up?

Unless it returned as stolen, there is nothing to detain you for; although I suppose that a "no match/record on file" on a gun that should match to something would possibly rise to the level of a Terry stop (meaning a new stop after you were free to go and have walked away from the e check). I'm sure that better legal minds than mine will chime in.

Theseus
04-14-2011, 8:47 PM
No, they would probably hook you for 148 PC. That crime was complete before the gun is discovered to be unloaded and stands independent of the e-check.

I don't believe this to be true. There is no "investigation" involved with an "e" check! De Long says it is merely an inspection.

Dutch3
04-14-2011, 9:04 PM
Unless it returned as stolen, there is nothing to detain you for; although I suppose that a "no match/record on file" on a gun that should match to something would possibly rise to the level of a Terry stop (meaning a new stop after you were free to go and have walked away from the e check). I'm sure that better legal minds than mine will chime in.

OK, sure, but what is the definition of "a gun that should match to something"?

Do the local gendarmes know what that is/isn't? Will I be detained until they figure out my unloaded handgun is not, nor was it ever, required to be registered to anyone? How long will that take?

N6ATF
04-14-2011, 9:55 PM
Essentially. If you refuse, they arrest you. They inspect, and then they have to release you. The only question is, now that you are under arrest, they can REALLY go fishing.

That is why I say we should all refuse "e" and make them arrest us so that we have them constantly violating our rights.

DeLong says its constitutional because it is only an inspection. . . But arresting you as a compulsion to wave your right and agree to an illegal search can't possibly be legal.

How do you refuse without 1) getting cited for 148 and assaulting a peace officer 2) going up the force ladder and risk getting put 6 feet under? You can say "I refuse" or "I don't consent" until you're blue in the face, they will commit whatever civil rights violations involving the e-check that they want as long as you don't wrestle with them to keep the gun holstered and on your person.

greg36f
04-14-2011, 11:42 PM
I don't believe this to be true. There is no "investigation" involved with an "e" check! De Long says it is merely an inspection.

90% of the time I agree with Theseus, but on this I disagree.

Like it or not; the e-check is legal. No one said you had to like it.

Refuse a valid request by a LEO and you are resisting/delaying/obstructing,,,,,,,call it what you want. It's 148 PC.

148 PC stands alone; it is not "attached" to any other crime (like 666 PC). It does not matter if the original reason for the request/demand by the LEO was valid (he though that he recognized you as a wanted suspect and was wrong) or not. 148 is 148.

Refusing an e-check is probably not the way to challenge the e-check. In fact if you resist vigorously enough (by your definition or the officers) you may even be looking at 69 PC (armed, angry, verbally abusive, took fighting stance, clenched fists, refused repeated requests).

69 Pc may never get filed, but it may be your booking charge.

Do not refuse an e-check; nothing good will come of that (IMO of course).

Decoligny
04-15-2011, 8:37 AM
Unless it returned as stolen, there is nothing to detain you for; although I suppose that a "no match/record on file" on a gun that should match to something would possibly rise to the level of a Terry stop (meaning a new stop after you were free to go and have walked away from the e check). I'm sure that better legal minds than mine will chime in.

Scenario:
Model Citizen, resident of another state, visiting California.
Model Citizen decides to participate in Sterile Open Carry.
Model Citizen is e-checked, serial number is run, nothing in CA system.

Terry Stop REQUIRES reasonable suspisction that a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed.

How does anything in the above scenario raise the e-check to the level of reasonable suspiscion that a crime has been committed?

No crime has been committed, no crime is about to be committed. Police Officer can "ask" for Model Citized to ID himself. Model Citizen can politely tell Police Officer to self copulate.

dilligaffrn
04-15-2011, 8:42 AM
Tagged!

sandman21
04-15-2011, 8:48 AM
Scenario:
Model Citizen, resident of another state, visiting California.
Model Citizen decides to participate in Sterile Open Carry.
Model Citizen is e-checked, serial number is run, nothing in CA system.

Terry Stop REQUIRES reasonable suspisction that a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed.

How does anything in the above scenario raise the e-check to the level of reasonable suspiscion that a crime has been committed?

No crime has been committed, no crime is about to be committed. Police Officer can "ask" for Model Citized to ID himself. Model Citizen can politely tell Police Officer to self copulate.

Model Citizen has unregistered handgun

Model Citizen is borrowing someone else’s handgun

Decoligny
04-15-2011, 8:50 AM
Model Citizen has unregistered handgun

Model Citizen is borrowing someone else’s handgun

How are these crimes?

sandman21
04-15-2011, 8:58 AM
How are these crimes?

They are not, just two more examples for the list.

sreiter
04-15-2011, 11:35 AM
Scenario:
Model Citizen, resident of another state, visiting California.
Model Citizen decides to participate in Sterile Open Carry.
Model Citizen is e-checked, serial number is run, nothing in CA system.

Terry Stop REQUIRES reasonable suspisction that a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed.

How does anything in the above scenario raise the e-check to the level of reasonable suspiscion that a crime has been committed?

No crime has been committed, no crime is about to be committed. Police Officer can "ask" for Model Citized to ID himself. Model Citizen can politely tell Police Officer to self copulate.

except, as we all know, cops lie all the time, and if you're not recording, or even if you are, and they have already thought up the excuse to harass you with

there's always Penal Code section 833.5

nicki
04-15-2011, 12:19 PM
So, if I am doing UOC, the police may come up and check to see if my gun is unloaded and I have to comply.

Now if I am carrying my side arm with the magazine out and the slide back so that the chamber is visible to the naked eye, a officer can check my gun without even taking it out of the holster.

Now, what "probable cause" does the cop have to proceed with checking me any further?

Nicki

greg36f
04-15-2011, 1:07 PM
So, if I am doing UOC, the police may come up and check to see if my gun is unloaded and I have to comply.

Now if I am carrying my side arm with the magazine out and the slide back so that the chamber is visible to the naked eye, a officer can check my gun without even taking it out of the holster.

Now, what "probable cause" does the cop have to proceed with checking me any further?

Nicki

The e-check has nothing to do with "probable cause". The officer is stopping you to ensure that you are in compliance with a specific penal code section; Nothing else. That is why it is a "check and go" thing...nothing else is required from you.

With the slide back, the officer could still stop you so that he can get a good look into your chamber. You may have a valid point about not being required to remove the gun from the holster, but the stop would still be good.

greg36f
04-15-2011, 1:12 PM
except, as we all know, cops lie all the time, and if you're not recording, or even if you are, and they have already thought up the excuse to harass you with

there's always Penal Code section 833.5

The only reason "cops lie all the time" is that gun owners also lie all the time and gun owners go out of their way to antagonize people with their guns in public,,,,,,You know how you are,,,just admit it,,,,,:rolleyes:

Good find on the 833.5 though.....Although it still requires "reasonable cause".....

sandman21
04-15-2011, 1:16 PM
833.5 is just Terry V. Ohio in code, which an e-check fails. ;)

Rossi357
04-15-2011, 1:31 PM
The only reason "cops lie all the time" is that gun owners also lie all the time and gun owners go out of their way to antagonize people with their guns in public,,,,,,You know how you are,,,just admit it,,,,,:rolleyes:

You forgot....the public goes out of their way to antagonize gun owners.
I guess we are all either liars or antagonizers.

choprzrul
04-15-2011, 2:03 PM
Scenario:
Model Citizen, resident of another state, visiting California.
Model Citizen decides to participate in Sterile Open Carry.
Model Citizen is e-checked, serial number is run, nothing in CA system.

Terry Stop REQUIRES reasonable suspisction that a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed.

How does anything in the above scenario raise the e-check to the level of reasonable suspiscion that a crime has been committed?

No crime has been committed, no crime is about to be committed. Police Officer can "ask" for Model Citized to ID himself. Model Citizen can politely tell Police Officer to self copulate.

"Why am I being detained officer?" Officer replies that they had a report of a man with a gun and they are checking to see if it is loaded. "I do not consent to any unconstitutional searches", and "I have been advised by legal council to not make any statements". At that point, you stand with your hands behind your back and make no attempt to restrict the officer in any way and follow his instructions. Obviously voice and video are running. As Nikki suggested, you are carrying with the slide locked back and no magazine in the gun. In other words, there is really no reason to remove the weapon from your holster, and if it is removed there is no need to do anything but glance at it and return it to the holster.

Now, after all of this you go about your business, just like you were before being detained. How can the officer(s) articulate, as stated above Terry Stop REQUIRES reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed. Where is the reasonable suspicion that a crime has been or is about to be committed? Since walking down the street with an unloaded handgun is not a crime, they have just admitted on video to violating your civil rights.

How is this any different than calling in a "man with a car" report because you are afraid that the driver is going to start exceeding the speed limit and hurt someone? In both cases, you have people in control of an inanimate object that has the capability to be used in an illegal and deadly manner.

Me thinks that a boiler plate complaint should be drawn up that can be filed with our county's grand jury for civil rights violations. Fill in the blanks and mail it in. I mean what's next? Are the police going to bring out the dogs and firehoses when they see someone exercising their civil rights?

Yikes. Makes my blood boil and I don't even UOC.

.