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View Full Version : Does "No Weapons" include legal CCW?


ChrisTKHarris
04-13-2011, 6:39 PM
So I was looking at the rules for the Asparagus Festival in Stockton and the rules seemed pretty obvious and straightforward, except I for #7 "no weapons of any kind", does this include a restriction on CCWing?

Or is the no weapons policy referring to troublemakers bringing in knives, pepper spray and other items with malicious intent?

1. Alcohol of any kind
2. Animals
3. Bottles, glass, cans, plastic bottles
4. Coolers (large or small)
5. Frisbees
6. Bicycles, Rollerblades, Skateboards
7. Weapons of any kind
8. Water projecting devices
9. Shirts and Shoes Required

Dangerpin
04-13-2011, 6:54 PM
No guns, sharp or blunt sticks, forks, knives, folding chairs, rolling pins, fingernails, teeth, 2x4s, bricks or rocks allowed?

Check your weapons at the door?

gobler
04-13-2011, 7:38 PM
A gun is not a weapon but a tool for self defense.

Librarian
04-13-2011, 7:41 PM
It appears that Weber Point Events Center is city-owned, and rented to various groups.

As such, I believe the renters may set their own rules, within the known limits of civil rights.

At Calguns, of course, we are part of the effort to get 'keep and bear arms' inside those 'known limits'.

Lone_Gunman
04-13-2011, 8:06 PM
The worst they could do though is ask you to leave though right? The "rules" have no force of law as far as I know.

Librarian
04-13-2011, 8:10 PM
The worst they could do though is ask you to leave though right? The "rules" have no force of law as far as I know.

I believe so; they ought to check at the gate, and refund your ticket price if you don't want to follow their rules.

Purple K
04-13-2011, 9:38 PM
Unless there are metal detectors, how will they know? Concealled means concealled. If discovered, all they can do is ask you to leave.

hoffmang
04-13-2011, 9:50 PM
Librarian is on the right analysis.

If the event is held on public property but operated by a private entity, that private entity can set the rules. Violating the rules can only lead them to asking you to leave.

-Gene

winnre
04-13-2011, 9:55 PM
Same rules at Victoria Gardens. I visit with a cop friend there, no one would say a word about an officer's firearm, but if the officer was drinking in public that would be a violation of their rules.

Unfortunately we should stop using logic here because a two-bit mall security guard will be personally making the enforcement decision.

GettoPhilosopher
04-13-2011, 9:58 PM
Unfortunately we should stop using logic here because a two-bit mall security guard will be personally making the enforcement decision if you get caught.

Like some of the others have said, if they don't know....you're fine. If you expose yourself (0_o) and they ask you to leave, you have to leave.

Kinda like carrying a pocketknife. I carry one everywhere, including plenty of places with "No weapons" signs. I don't flaunt it. I've only been asked to leave twice. (Interestingly enough, both in the same mall in Virginia Beach, VA)

Librarian
04-13-2011, 10:19 PM
Unfortunately we should stop using logic here because a two-bit mall security guard will be personally making the enforcement decision.

Perhaps that might be a bit harsh. Some of us here occasionally act as one of those who make such enforcement decisions.

jnojr
04-14-2011, 8:06 AM
So I was looking at the rules for the Asparagus Festival in Stockton and the rules seemed pretty obvious and straightforward, except I for #7 "no weapons of any kind", does this include a restriction on CCWing?

Concealed means concealed.

locosway
04-14-2011, 8:10 AM
Unfortunately we should stop using logic here because a two-bit mall security guard will be personally making the enforcement decision.

I did security for a while and was well trained. We trained with Irvine PD regularly and would go to the same calls. There was never a question of training or if they trusted us. I think your view of security is a bit broad and narrow minded.

Besides, security officers are only agents of the property who are enforcing the rules of the property. If you don't like the rules you need to take it up with the property owners/managers to get the rules changed.

Glock22Fan
04-14-2011, 8:36 AM
I did security for a while and was well trained. We trained with Irvine PD regularly and would go to the same calls. There was never a question of training or if they trusted us. I think your view of security is a bit broad and narrow minded.

Besides, security officers are only agents of the property who are enforcing the rules of the property. If you don't like the rules you need to take it up with the property owners/managers to get the rules changed.

I'm related to a mall security guard. Nice (young) guy, means well, I like him. But, he has had absolutely no training worth speaking and has been brought up to think that firearms are evil (actually, I think he might come around a bit one day, he was asking me whether I could take him to the range one day, we still have to fix a date).

So, a bit like cops really, there are those that know what's what and those that don't. You pays yer money and takes the gamble.

tenpercentfirearms
04-14-2011, 8:36 AM
I always use the metal detector rule. If there is a metal detector, they don't want you to carry. If there isn't, I am illiterate and can't read their signs.

winnre
04-14-2011, 7:33 PM
I walk around with a DSLR camera and a few lenses and mall security guards totally freak out. Outdoor malls, and I may not even be taking a picture. Buildings are trademarks, you cannot shoot logos, you need a permit or a license to photograph other people in public, etc. All untrue. They are making up the rules as THEY see fit, not what the law says.

If they freak out that much with a camera, imagine with a firearm, even a legal one. Oddly enough there is a gun store in the mall complex.

hoffmang
04-14-2011, 7:43 PM
I always use the metal detector rule. If there is a metal detector, they don't want you to carry. If there isn't, I am illiterate and can't read their signs.

Quoted for truth.

The funny part is that often when there are metal detectors there are also laws prohibiting them from denying 12050 holders... Alameda County Fair, here we come!

-Gene

tenpercentfirearms
04-15-2011, 5:47 AM
Quoted for truth.

The funny part is that often when there are metal detectors there are also laws prohibiting them from denying 12050 holders... Alameda County Fair, here we come!

-Gene

So the Kern County Fair's signs everywhere that said, "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" was unlawful?

I mean I heard they were there. I didn't see any metal detectors and I can't read so I am not sure if that is what that scribble was or wasn't when I walked into the fair last year.

Andy Taylor
04-15-2011, 6:18 AM
I walk around with a DSLR camera and a few lenses and mall security guards totally freak out. Outdoor malls, and I may not even be taking a picture. Buildings are trademarks, you cannot shoot logos, you need a permit or a license to photograph other people in public, etc. All untrue. They are making up the rules as THEY see fit, not what the law says.

If they freak out that much with a camera, imagine with a firearm, even a legal one. Oddly enough there is a gun store in the mall complex.


However, many owners of said buildings, malls, etc do not want pics taken for various reasons. If you are in or on someone else's property and they do not want cameras there, well either don't bring a camera, or don't go. Those are likley the instructions they are given by thier bosses, and sometimes, unfortunately, they are not properly instructed on the details. If you are on public property and take a pic, there is nothing they can do about it. If you are on their property, yes they can ask you to leave.

markw
04-15-2011, 6:27 AM
Like some of the others have said, if they don't know....you're fine. If you expose yourself (0_o) and they ask you to leave, you have to leave.

Kinda like carrying a pocketknife. I carry one everywhere, including plenty of places with "No weapons" signs. I don't flaunt it. I've only been asked to leave twice. (Interestingly enough, both in the same mall in Virginia Beach, VA)

Let me guess the mall had shops where you could buy pocket knives. :)

messione
04-15-2011, 9:14 AM
Hi All
Not to start a major debate but I'm one of "those mall security guards" but I do more concert and other event (county fairs, street fairs with beer gardens, etc).I have a ccw, exposed carry, gas, baton, etc permits. I'm trained in many laws and policy including firearms. the question is not if you can but whether or not you should. What policy are in effect at the venue? Even if the event is on public land, The lease or permit is issued to a private person or group. in-turn for the dates and time of that permit. Basically that public land is no longer public, so the owner now can set his own rules. And if that guard was instructed no weapons then its no weapons. whats the grey area? Unless you are a sworn law enforcement personnel which trumps civilian laws. Its private property. If I don't allow you to bring a gun into my house ITS YOUR CHOICE not to come in. It is what it is. Remember at the end of the its about profit, can you imagine how much the insurance company will charge the promoter if they didn't restrict weapons.

MudCamper
04-15-2011, 9:29 AM
the question is not if you can but whether or not you should.

If that's the case, then the answer is simple. All responsible citizens should always carry adequate means of self defense. To do otherwise is to neglect ones civic duty.

"Wherever I go, everyone is a little bit safer because I am there. Wherever I am, anyone in need has a friend." - Robert L. Humphrey

"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen." - Sir Robert Peel

sandman21
04-15-2011, 9:35 AM
http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/re-wallace-22815

Even if asked to leave what are they going to charge you with? Any input?

MudCamper
04-15-2011, 9:40 AM
http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/re-wallace-22815

Even if asked to leave what are they going to charge you with? Any input?

I won't speak to the county property issue, but with regard to private property they can only tell you to leave. If you do not, then you can be charged with trespass.

sfpcservice
04-15-2011, 9:42 AM
Quoted for truth.

The funny part is that often when there are metal detectors there are also laws prohibiting them from denying 12050 holders... Alameda County Fair, here we come!

-Gene

Would this apply to the Dixon-May Fair also?

sandman21
04-15-2011, 10:06 AM
I won't speak to the county property issue, but with regard to private property they can only tell you to leave. If you do not, then you can be charged with trespass.

Read Wallace, you need to interfere with the business to be charged with trespassing.

MudCamper
04-15-2011, 10:13 AM
Read Wallace, you need to interfere with the business to be charged with trespassing.

OK. That's good to know. But on private property, for instance a store open to the public, the owner or his agents can ask you to leave (no reason even needed) and if you don't comply then you are technically violating CA trespass law.

sandman21
04-15-2011, 10:26 AM
OK. That's good to know. But on private property, for instance a store open to the public, the owner or his agents can ask you to leave (no reason even needed) and if you don't comply then you are technically violating CA trespass law.

I don't know Wallace is as close as I have come to an answer, it would seem that 602 still could not be charged, the owner not liking what you are doing is not enough.

J.D.Allen
04-15-2011, 10:32 AM
Hi All
Not to start a major debate but I'm one of "those mall security guards" but I do more concert and other event (county fairs, street fairs with beer gardens, etc).I have a ccw, exposed carry, gas, baton, etc permits. I'm trained in many laws and policy including firearms. the question is not if you can but whether or not you should. What policy are in effect at the venue? Even if the event is on public land, The lease or permit is issued to a private person or group. in-turn for the dates and time of that permit. Basically that public land is no longer public, so the owner now can set his own rules. And if that guard was instructed no weapons then its no weapons. whats the grey area? Unless you are a sworn law enforcement personnel which trumps civilian laws. Its private property. If I don't allow you to bring a gun into my house ITS YOUR CHOICE not to come in. It is what it is. Remember at the end of the its about profit, can you imagine how much the insurance company will charge the promoter if they didn't restrict weapons.

Comparing your house to a PUBLIC event (because even if the property it's held on is technically private, the PUBLIC is being invited and encouraged to attend en masse which means in truth it's really a public event) is comparing apples to oranges. No one questions your right to restrict anyone from bringing anything into your private residence. A public gathering is a completely different ballgame.

Remember that IF the law says one can restrict firearms at venues of this kind (a fact that is in dispute) then a sign does NOT have the force of law. Only your request of one to leave as a representative of the entity renting the venue does.

I personally think (as do many others) that even this should not be so, for the reason that if you don't have two things; metal detectors to make sure EVERYONE is disarmed and ARMED security to protect me in case someone slips through the cracks, then you have created a victim disarmament zone at a public place. In a word, unacceptable.

MudCamper
04-15-2011, 10:54 AM
I don't know Wallace is as close as I have come to an answer, it would seem that 602 still could not be charged, the owner not liking what you are doing is not enough.

Well Wallace deals with a public fairgrounds. So in that case I agree with you. But private property is different. What good are private property rights if you can't at least ask people to leave without some legal recourse? Although what J.D.Allen is saying may well be true, and opening your private property to the public may alter that. But to what extent? I don't know. But what do you think is going to happen if you are asked to leave publicly open private property, you refuse, and the owner calls the local sheriff? What do you think those sheriffs deputies are going to do?

sandman21
04-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Well Wallace deals with a public fairgrounds. So in that case I agree with you. But private property is different. What good are private property rights if you can't at least ask people to leave without some legal recourse? Although what J.D.Allen is saying may well be true, and opening your private property to the public may alter that. But to what extent? I don't know. But what do you think is going to happen if you are asked to leave publicly open private property, you refuse, and the owner calls the local sheriff? What do you think those sheriffs deputies are going to do?

CA PC602 has a requirement that it not be open to the public, does this apply to a business, I think so, but I can not give you a better answer. To answer your question; You are arrested the charges dropped; the LEO informs the owner that you are not creating a obstructing the business if the person obstructs the business to give them a call.

ubet
04-15-2011, 2:01 PM
SOOO, OT, on the Fairs. The state fair, says NO FIREARMS, Merced fair, says NO FIREARMS. Metal detectors at both, they are both on public ground. Can I still legally ccw inside there? I called the state fair, and they said no, no ccw exemptions. I was pissed, but not much I could do. Ideas..................................

turbosbox
04-15-2011, 3:11 PM
OK. That's good to know. But on private property, for instance a store open to the public, the owner or his agents can ask you to leave (no reason even needed) and if you don't comply then you are technically violating CA trespass law.
Quoted for truth, don't believe any FUD that says you don't have to leave private property when requested to do so. Including "private property open to the public". Any rare exceptions would be limited to e.g. some free speech in a "semi public area". I would bet for every 100 people asked to leave, and who steadfastly refused, at least 99 of them were charged with trespassing or other charges. You CAN be asked to leave WITHOUT CAUSE. Unless you can prove with $$$ lawyer it was racial or something, you lose.

Edit: FUD thinking like that is what is getting open carry banned which is a setback to 2A rights, it is not some magic beans good thing for us.

messione
04-15-2011, 4:47 PM
For example, has anybody taken the time to read the back of any tickets for any event that they have gone to? It stated by purchasing this ticket you are acknowledging and accepting all policy and rules of this venue / event. The promoter is not forcing you to go to the event BUT if you CHOOSE to you must follow these policy. Its like a NFL game at the stadium you do not have to submit to a pat down but if you wanna come in, guess what you are going to go through the pat down. Its a city owned location but for that time it is leased out to a private group. So during that time that groups policy's are in full effect. if you don't like those policy's you do not have to go. And as far as PD and Sheriff they are only protecting the promoter private property rights. And yes they can remove and charge you with trespassing even on public land but that has been leased to the promoter, for that permitted time. You can argue and get mad all day long at a "mall security guard that does not know his weapons laws" but the bottom line is that they were hired to carry out the promoter / venues orders and policy's. and what happened the last time you didn't follow your bosses orders? Guess we will be looking for a new boss. Are you hiring?

sandman21
04-15-2011, 5:13 PM
Quoted for truth, don't believe any FUD that says you don't have to leave private property when requested to do so. Including "private property open to the public". Any rare exceptions would be limited to e.g. some free speech in a "semi public area". I would bet for every 100 people asked to leave, and who steadfastly refused, at least 99 of them were charged with trespassing or other charges. You CAN be asked to leave WITHOUT CAUSE. Unless you can prove with $$$ lawyer it was racial or something, you lose.

Edit: FUD thinking like that is what is getting open carry banned which is a setback to 2A rights, it is not some magic beans good thing for us.

Do you even know what FUD means? :rolleyes:

OC has been banned for a number of years, because people didn't care to fight for everyone's rights because it was a bunch of "trouble maker". UOC is 1A activity not 2A

winnre
04-15-2011, 7:53 PM
Simply amazing. You guys are confirming what I think about mall guards. By having guns, we know the law a little more than most people, right? Or at least we should. We own guns, so we wish to be versed in what is legal and not legal to stay on the good side of the law and out of any gray areas.

Now how many of you know the laws regarding photography in similar or greater depth? Just what I thought.

Want me to not carry a camera? Wow, look at all the cell phones out there you need to confiscate off of people as they enter the mall, presuming the have cameras. Plus point and shoot cameras. Yes,tell me to put my camera back in the car I will bring this back on you a million times harder.

For starters: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

locosway
04-15-2011, 8:41 PM
Simply amazing. You guys are confirming what I think about mall guards. By having guns, we know the law a little more than most people, right? Or at least we should. We own guns, so we wish to be versed in what is legal and not legal to stay on the good side of the law and out of any gray areas.

Now how many of you know the laws regarding photography in similar or greater depth? Just what I thought.

Want me to not carry a camera? Wow, look at all the cell phones out there you need to confiscate off of people as they enter the mall, presuming the have cameras. Plus point and shoot cameras. Yes,tell me to put my camera back in the car I will bring this back on you a million times harder.

For starters: http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

When I worked security we had a no photo policy too. We didn't say it was illegal, we just informed them that it was private property. If they didn't comply or became out of control then we would simply call PD and have them hooked up for trespassing.

winnre
04-15-2011, 9:11 PM
Is it policy in writing by the mall board of directors or other authorities? Many times it is simply the whim of some person in the chain with no authority to speak for the stockholders/board/owner. And if you go enforcing a policy that does not exist other than you were told to enforce it, you are about to get your final paycheck.

Photos for personal use are almost always allowed. If I walk in to get pictures for advertising or publication then yes I can understand permission needed, and I have done that. But if I want to photography my kid on a train ride and you say no because I have a Nikon but let the guy with a cell phone camera shoot, you are wrong. Also if public laws apply, such as parking laws, "drunk in public" laws and other laws, then I can argue it is a public area. If it was truly private I can walk around and drink, and it may be against your policy, but it is not illegal.

So when you are told "Don't let anyone take pictures" you better check if that policy holds water. Because I'll call you on it. And I'll be taking your picture as you talk to me too.