PDA

View Full Version : AR Pistol to Carbine


Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 12:09 PM
Wondering if anyone out there knew the legalities of converting a registered AR Pistol into the rifle version. I understand that as long as the California Assault Weapons Laws are not broken it should be ok to my understanding, anyone have any further insight on this subject or references that I could look up to read the laws in relation to this specific case.

Thanks Guys as always

SJgunguy24
04-13-2011, 12:35 PM
Wondering if anyone out there knew the legalities of converting a registered AR Pistol into the rifle version. I understand that as long as the California Assault Weapons Laws are not broken it should be ok to my understanding, anyone have any further insight on this subject or references that I could look up to read the laws in relation to this specific case.

Thanks Guys as always

Once a stock is mounted onto that pistol lower it becomes a rifle according to BATFE ruling. If you turn that lower back into a pistol you have now manufactured an SBR and need to have the proper permits (CA) and NFA paperwork(Feds)

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 12:42 PM
Once a stock is mounted onto that pistol lower it becomes a rifle according to BATFE ruling. If you turn that lower back into a pistol you have now manufactured an SBR and need to have the proper permits (CA) and NFA paperwork(Feds)

So essentially once it is taken out of pistol format it cannot be brough back even if you take the stock off and bring it back to the original configuration. And of course when put into rifle configuration it would have to have a longer barrel and all, meaning two seperate uppers one for pistol config and the other for rifle. Even with that federal states it cannot go back and forth?

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 12:48 PM
So essentially once it is taken out of pistol format it cannot be brough back even if you take the stock off and bring it back to the original configuration. And of course when put into rifle configuration it would have to have a longer barrel and all, meaning two seperate uppers one for pistol config and the other for rifle. Even with that federal states it cannot go back and forth?

Correct, although ATF's latest update on making it a long gun requires shoulder stock attached and +16" barrel attached. Merely attaching a shoulder stock alone does not make it a long gun - the ATF letter is floating about here somewhere.

The only exception is that if you purchase a kit containing a single receiver and the parts required to assemble both a legally configured long gun and handgun - the "kit" approach is one first OK'd with the T/C guns, only took ATF about 30 years to affirm it could be done with others.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 12:51 PM
Heres the real deal.

The law is an honesty thing. If you have a AR15 pistol, than change it to a rifle, then change it back to a pistol, the Federal Prosecutor has to prove that. If they DO, you will spend the next 20 years in prison. The punishment isn't worth the crime.

Thats how honestly laws work. If it was easy to prove, the punishment is less severe. You serve less time in Federal Prison for rape and murder then manufacturing a Short Barreled Rifle.

ITS NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 12:55 PM
Heres the real deal.

The law is an honesty thing. If you have a AR15 pistol, than change it to a rifle, then change it back to a pistol, the Federal Prosecutor has to prove that. If they DO, you will spend the next 20 years in prison. The punishment isn't worth the crime.

Thats how honestly laws work. If it was easy to prove, the punishment is less severe. You serve less time in Federal Prison for rape and murder then manufacturing a Short Barreled Rifle.

ITS NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE

So essentially what your saying is wait until after I can move to AZ and get the Tax Stamp so none of it will even be an issue... Point well taken and appreciate the responses.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 12:55 PM
Once a stock is mounted onto that pistol lower it becomes a rifle according to BATFE ruling. If you turn that lower back into a pistol you have now manufactured an SBR and need to have the proper permits (CA) and NFA paperwork(Feds)

Uh, I was under the impression that even if a stock is on a lower, as long as it has never had an upper mounted to it, the stock can still be removed and the lower could be made into a handgun. I believe ATF sent out an opinion letter regarding "complete" lowers being used to build handguns. Also, according to ATF, there's really no such thing a a "pistol lower" Either a lower has been built into a rifle/shotgun and must remain a long gun or, it hasn't and it can be built into a handgun or a long gun.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 1:02 PM
Uh, I was under the impression that even if a stock is on a lower, as long as it has never had an upper mounted to it, the stock can still be removed and the lower could be made into a handgun. I believe ATF sent out an opinion letter regarding "complete" lowers being used to build handguns. Also, according to ATF, there's really no such thing a a "pistol lower" Either a lower has been built into a rifle/shotgun and must remain a long gun or, it hasn't and it can be built into a handgun or a long gun.

Yeah, but it all comes back to, "once a rifle always a rifle" Once you have made a rifle....EOS (end of story). Its a one way street.

I can take my Glock 17, attach a stock and 16" barrel to it while hiding in my closet and if I change it back to a pistol I am committing a felony punishable by 20 years, no less than 18 years.

The mere fact I own the stock and 16" barrel can be used to suggest I made such a rifle. This is constructive possession. Will it be used against me? maybe, maybe not. It all depends on why the ATF is at my house. The fact IT CAN BE USED to put you away fro 20 years should keep you away from walking down that road.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 1:11 PM
Yeah, but it all comes back to, "once a rifle always a rifle" Once you have made a rifle....EOS (end of story). Its a one way street.

I can take my Glock 17, attach a stock and 16" barrel to it while hiding in my closet and if I change it back to a pistol I am committing a felony punishable by 20 years, no less than 18 years.

The mere fact I won the stock and 16" barrel can be used to suggest I made such a rifle. This is constructive possession. Will it be used against me? maybe, maybe not. It all depends on why the ATF is at my house. The fact is IT CAN BE USED to put you away fro 20 years should keep you away from walking down that road.

Yup, once a rifle always a rifle. But, a virgin lower with a stock on it is niether a rifle nor a handgun. So, it can still be made into a handgun on a federal level.

Now, you are trying to argue that constructive possession of long gun parts could be seen as a crime? I am really not following you here. There is no law against having a 16" barrel for a handgun. Now possession of a shoulder stock and a handgun which fits it could be seen as constructive possession of a SBR but, the stock along with the 16" barrel would be seen as fine as long as you don't ever use it on a gun and try to reconfigure it as a handgun later. But, again, constructive possession of rifle parts isn't a crime at all.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 1:22 PM
And thats the spider web of a trap called "constructive possession". The law is so wide it can trap you without you even realizing you have run into it.

I have multiple homes. NY, WA and CA. If I have a registered M16 in WA, a 7" upper in NY and an AR15 in Ca...I am breaking the law. In CA I can be charged and convicted of Constructive possession of a Short Barreled Rifle by not owning a pistol lower for that 7" upper in a safe 3000 miles away from me.

If I own an extra Full auto trigger/fire control group for that legal M16, I am breaking the law because even though the FCG is 1600 miles away in another State, Constructive Possession laws say I have an AR15 machine gun in CA.

The same would hold true for owning an AR15 pistol, a Stock and a 16" upper. The mere suggestion that you are swapping the firearm from pistol to rifle freely without paying your NFA tax can put you in prison for 20 years.

FYI CSACannoneer knows this. Our conversation between each other is for the benefit of the newer AR15 owners reading this thread.

stix213
04-13-2011, 1:29 PM
I new AR rifle lower is only like $125. There is no reason to be trying to play the pistol to rifle to pistol possible felony game to save that little amount of money.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 1:58 PM
And thats the spider web of a trap called "constructive possession". The law is so wide it can trap you without you even realizing you have run into it.

I have multiple homes. NY, WA and CA. If I have a registered M16 in WA, a 7" upper in NY and an AR15 in Ca...I am breaking the law. In CA I can be charged and convicted of Constructive possession of a Short Barreled Rifle by not owning a pistol lower for that 7" upper in a safe 3000 miles away from me.

If I own an extra Full auto trigger/fire control group for that legal M16, I am breaking the law because even though the FCG is 1600 miles away in another State, Constructive Possession laws say I have an AR15 machine gun in CA.

The same would hold true for owning an AR15 pistol, a Stock and a 16" upper. The mere suggestion that you are swapping the firearm from pistol to rifle freely without paying your NFA tax can put you in prison for 20 years.

FYI CSACannoneer knows this. Our conversation between each other is for the benefit of the newer AR15 owners reading this thread.

I bet most people who own AR pistols also own AR rifles. There is no problem owning an AR pistol and also owning an AR upper with a rifle length barrel and/or an AR stock. If there was, almost everyone who owns an AR pistol could be charged with constructive possession of a SBR.

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 2:09 PM
Yeah, but it all comes back to, "once a rifle always a rifle" Once you have made a rifle....EOS (end of story). Its a one way street.

I can take my Glock 17, attach a stock and 16" barrel to it while hiding in my closet and if I change it back to a pistol I am committing a felony punishable by 20 years, no less than 18 years.

The mere fact I own the stock and 16" barrel can be used to suggest I made such a rifle. This is constructive possession. Will it be used against me? maybe, maybe not. It all depends on why the ATF is at my house. The fact IT CAN BE USED to put you away fro 20 years should keep you away from walking down that road.

The constructive possession violation would apply not to reconfiguring a long gun as a handgun, it would apply to creating an SBR. Using those parts constructive possession would involve the shoulder stock, handgun and fewer than 16" bbl only if the firearm was configured as a long gun. If the firearm was configured as a handgun with a +16" upper and a shoulder stock present I do not believe constructive possession applies regarding reconfiguring a long gun as a handgun.

Regarding the AR scenario, if one owns only a complete AR long gun and an upper of fewer than 16" constructive possession applies as an SBR. If one also owns an AR handgun, since the parts available can be assembled into a legally configured handgun, constuctive possession would not apply. This was actually the essence of the T/C case which was with the parts available, although an illegally configured NFA weaon COULD be assembled it was not the only option - the ability to assemble to a legally configured long gun or handgun was the difference.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 2:11 PM
I bet most people who own AR pistols also own AR rifles. There is no problem owning an AR pistol and also owning an AR upper with a rifle length barrel and/or an AR stock. If there was, almost everyone who owns an AR pistol could be charged with constructive possession of a SBR.

I would have to agree with that statement, I find the laws being discussed very interesting, anyone have a reference to these laws so I can further research the nitty gritty details of this intricate subject?

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 2:28 PM
I bet most people who own AR pistols also own AR rifles. There is no problem owning an AR pistol and also owning an AR upper with a rifle length barrel and/or an AR stock. If there was, almost everyone who owns an AR pistol could be charged with constructive possession of a SBR.

Going back to the "honesty" issue, let's use the following hypothetical scenario for anyone loutside CA. It could be done in CA, but for simplicity let's visit the US. ;)

So, I have in my closet a complete +16" AR upper and a complete 11.5" AR upper - nothing else. I go to the local gun store and purchase a "brand new" fully functional AR lower receiver with buttstock only attached - no upper. I bring it home & stash it in the gun safe with my two uppers. I do not attach it to either upper.

Am I in possession of an SBR - why or why not?

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 2:36 PM
The constructive possession violation would apply not to reconfiguring a long gun as a handgun, it would apply to creating an SBR. Using those parts constructive possession would involve the shoulder stock, handgun and fewer than 16" bbl only.

Regarding the AR scenario, if one owns only a complete AR long gun and an upper of fewer than 16" constructive possession applies as an SBR. If one also owns an AR handgun, since the parts available can be assembled into a legally configured handgun, constructive possession would not apply. This was actually the essence of the T/C case which was with the parts available, although an illegally configured NFA weapon COULD be assembled it was not the only option - the ability to assemble to a legally configured long gun or handgun was the difference.

and you are wrong. I agree few cases have been publish where a person was charged with CP with a registered pistol, but that registered pistol is not a "get outta jail free" card.

If you own a pistol, and the items needed to make that pistol into a rifle CP applies to you. No it isn't against the law to go from Pistol to Rifle...but it is and can be suggested that you are going from rifle to pistol to SBR at will...that is CP. Thats the definition of CP.

The mere fact I can = I may have = Illegal. I own a vise. I own a Hacksaw. I own a Shotgun. This doesn't = a short barrel shotgun by CP...BUT CAN if other factors are in play, such as a witness or statement about my intentions. To seal the deal they would like me to put saw to barrel, but they do not need that under CP..its just a slam dunk if I do. Read Randy Weaver story if you don't believe me. He cut a shotgun after someone (informant) offered him money to do it. He thought 16" was ok...He didn't realize 18" was federal for a shotgun. This was all started by a statement made about him to LEO and him not wishing to work as an informant himself.

Time and distance do not matter to CP laws. Its a suggestive law on honesty. Don't believe me if you want.

I am telling you, if they can prove your pistol has been modified into a Rifle, then changed back to a pistol...you have broke the law. If they can SUGGEST to a jury you have done it...you have still broken the law. CP doesn't require hard PROOF. Its merely easier to prove with hard proof or in certain circumstances, such as owning machine gun parts is easy CP. Hard to prove CP is a pistol with the owners ability to go to SBR...its hard to prove...not impossible.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 2:37 PM
Going back to the "honesty" issue, let's use the following hypothetical scenario for anyone loutside CA. It could be done in CA, but for simplicity let's visit the US. ;)

So, I have in my closet a complete +16" AR upper and a complete 11.5" AR upper - nothing else. I go to the local gun store and purchase a "brand new" fully functional AR lower receiver with buttstock only attached - no upper. I bring it home & stash it in the gun safe with my two uppers. I do not attach it to either upper.

Am I in possession of an SBR - why or why not?

I would have to say based off the situation where it is discovered by law enforcement yes and no, yes if there was something that happened and the police entered your house to search it, discovering this it would be the burden of the courts to prove you had both intent to create it and the means to do so. Upon the search you would have already proved their means all they need to do is give intent, which well it can be tough to argue but it just depends on the court case they try to present. If your friend who is law enforcement enters your hosue and he sees it I would say no, if they ask you about it simply say well I am not sure if I want to make a rifle or a pistol yet. either way it could become a really sticky situation extremely fast for you.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 2:40 PM
Going back to the "honesty" issue, let's use the following hypothetical scenario for anyone loutside CA. It could be done in CA, but for simplicity let's visit the US. ;)

So, I have in my closet a complete +16" AR upper and a complete 11.5" AR upper - nothing else. I go to the local gun store and purchase a "brand new" fully functional AR lower receiver with buttstock only attached - no upper. I bring it home & stash it in the gun safe with my two uppers. I do not attach it to either upper.

Am I in possession of an SBR - why or why not?

illegal. Even if the less than 16" upper is 5000 miles away from you in another safe. You own both, you have CP to break the law...illegal. the upper doesnt even need to be near, attached or your intentions to do it known.

Yes the ATF has said, an un-barreled upper is NOT CP for an SBR, but you had best be working toward compliance. Owning the lower and upper is CP plain and simple.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 2:41 PM
and you are wrong. I agree few cases have been publish where a person was charged with CP with a registered pistol, but that registered pistol is not a "get outta jail free" card.

If you own a pistol, and the items needed to make that pistol into a rifle CP applies to you. No it isn't against the law to go from Pistol to Rifle...but it is and can be suggested that you are going from rifle to pistol to SBR at will...that is CP. Thats the definition of CP.

The mere fact I can = I may have = Illegal. I own a vise. I own a Hacksaw. I own a Shotgun. This doesn't = a short barrel shotgun by CP...BUT CAN if other factors are in play, such as a witness or statement about my intentions. To seal the deal they would like me to put saw to barrel, but they do not need that under CP..its just a slam dunk if I do. Read Randy Weaver story if you don't believe me. He cut a shotgun after someone (informant) offered him money to do it. He thought 16" was ok...He didn't realize 18" was federal for a shotgun. This was all started by a statement made about him to LEO and him not wishing to work as an informant himself.

Time and distance do not matter to CP laws. Its a suggestive law on honesty. Don't believe me if you want.

I am telling you, if they can prove your pistol has been modified into a Rifle, then changed back to a pistol...you have broke the law. If they can SUGGEST to a jury you have done it...you have still broken the law. CP doesn't require hard PROOF. Its merely easier to prove with hard proof or in certain circumstances, such as owning machine gun parts is easy CP. Hard to prove CP is a pistol with the owners ability to go to SBR...its hard to prove...not impossible.

Solid example with references, this is what I like to see.

GoingPro
04-13-2011, 2:47 PM
Heres the real deal.

The law is an honesty thing. If you have a AR15 pistol, than change it to a rifle, then change it back to a pistol, the Federal Prosecutor has to prove that. If they DO, you will spend the next 20 years in prison.
ITS NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE



Relax.....They wont stick you in prision for 20 years. Too many people in prision for something of this nature, specially if your a first time offender. You will go through some ***** and pay lots of fees with lawyers etc. You might get on probation and some community service possible 6months in jail if the judge doesnt like your haircut..... Now if you're a career criminal than yes you're right. you will probably get 5-10 years. I do agree with you, it really isn't worth the risk to go through all of this head ache to have certain features...... Abide by the laws and avoid being put in jail for something stupid.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 2:52 PM
Relax.....They wont stick you in prision for 20 years. Too many people in prision for something of this nature, specially if your a first time offender. You will go through some ***** and pay lots of fees with lawyers etc. You might get on probation and some community service possible 6months in jail if the judge doesnt like your haircut..... Now if you're a career criminal than yes you're right. you will probably get 5-10 years. I do agree with you, it really isn't worth the risk to go through all of this head ache to have certain features...... Abide by the laws and avoid being put in jail for something stupid.

LOL

like thats any better

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 2:54 PM
Relax.....They wont stick you in prision for 20 years. Too many people in prision for something of this nature, specially if your a first time offender. You will go through some ***** and pay lots of fees with lawyers etc. You might get on probation and some community service possible 6months in jail if the judge doesnt like your haircut..... Now if you're a career criminal than yes you're right. you will probably get 5-10 years. I do agree with you, it really isn't worth the risk to go through all of this head ache to have certain features...... Abide by the laws and avoid being put in jail for something stupid.

Well I believe if you are a career criminal there is a seperate law in effect that BATF loves oh sooo much, and that is "Felon in Posession of a Firearm". From my understanding one of their favorite charges when dealing with a repeat offender.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 3:11 PM
also please remember...

Randy Weaver lost his Wife and Son to gunfire for a misunderstanding on which is legal...16" or 18" for Shotguns.

The Branch Davidians in Waco were surrounded and burned out due to the suggestion of illegal firearms, drugs and sexual abuse.

LEO and NG went door to door and removed firearms from law abiding people in the aftermath of Katrina.

A Judge in CA ruled the legal definition of "knowing" as a requirement of the law, could not be used in a defense. (If you know you are in a school zone, the firearm must be locked up...in CA not knowing you are in the zone is NOT a defense.)

In the SLO incident LEO entered a locked trailer, then entered a locked safe and charged a person with Federal crimes under exigent circumstance rulings.


This all shows you,
suggestion = probably cause to investigate.
Investigate can = use of force
The Government can do what they want Nothing is written in stone.

20years, $55,000 legal fees, 5-10 years, probation, no compromise, death...whatever. That is all after the fact your life is ripped apart.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 3:12 PM
Going back to the "honesty" issue, let's use the following hypothetical scenario for anyone loutside CA. It could be done in CA, but for simplicity let's visit the US. ;)

So, I have in my closet a complete +16" AR upper and a complete 11.5" AR upper - nothing else. I go to the local gun store and purchase a "brand new" fully functional AR lower receiver with buttstock only attached - no upper. I bring it home & stash it in the gun safe with my two uppers. I do not attach it to either upper.

Am I in possession of an SBR - why or why not?

Without taking California law into account. The answer is "no" you are not in constructive possession of a SBR. Since ATF has ruled that any virgin receiver (even one with a stock attached) can be made into a pistol, rifle, shotgun or other, you have all the legal makings for either a pistol or a rifle. Now, once you build a rifle and no longer possess a virgin lower for your pistol upper, one could easily and rightfully argue that you are in constructive possession of a SBR.

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 3:12 PM
and you are wrong. I agree few cases have been publish where a person was charged with CP with a registered pistol, but that registered pistol is not a "get outta jail free" card.

If you own a pistol, and the items needed to make that pistol into a rifle CP applies to you. No it isn't against the law to go from Pistol to Rifle...but it is and can be suggested that you are going from rifle to pistol to SBR at will...that is CP. Thats the definition of CP.

The mere fact I can = I may have = Illegal. I own a vise. I own a Hacksaw. I own a Shotgun. This doesn't = a short barrel shotgun by CP...BUT CAN if other factors are in play, such as a witness or statement about my intentions. To seal the deal they would like me to put saw to barrel, but they do not need that under CP..its just a slam dunk if I do. Read Randy Weaver story if you don't believe me. He cut a shotgun after someone (informant) offered him money to do it. He thought 16" was ok...He didn't realize 18" was federal for a shotgun. This was all started by a statement made about him to LEO and him not wishing to work as an informant himself.

Time and distance do not matter to CP laws. Its a suggestive law on honesty. Don't believe me if you want.

I am telling you, if they can prove your pistol has been modified into a Rifle, then changed back to a pistol...you have broke the law. If they can SUGGEST to a jury you have done it...you have still broken the law. CP doesn't require hard PROOF. Its merely easier to prove with hard proof or in certain circumstances, such as owning machine gun parts is easy CP. Hard to prove CP is a pistol with the owners ability to go to SBR...its hard to prove...not impossible.

I understand constructive possession, that it is not restricted by physical possession nor distance. Constructive possession applies regarding SBR, certainly. I do not believe constructive possession applies when one has a "mix & match" collection of long guns and handguns - if one owns legally configured AR long guns and legally configured AR handguns there is no jeopardy one will be charged with constructive possession because a shorter than 16" upper could be removed from the handgun and attached to an AR long gun.

If they can prove I've done the modification that's not constructive possession that's actually doing the deed. Weaver was charged for doing, not for saying he would do and I think that's the difference.

I own 4 T/C frames - a Contender and an Encore each purchased and configured as handguns (they were bought before the 4473 "other" option") and a Contender and an Encore each purchased and configured as long guns. I have screwdrivers, I have Allen wrenches - everything I need to do an illegal SBR switch were I so inlcined. If someone has been pinched under such circumstances I would be very interested to know.

I agree that by merely owning guns we all take a certain risk, the only way to avoid all risk is to not own guns.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 3:15 PM
It is interesting how that works, there is truly no way to defend yourself without putting yourself at risk knowingly or sometimes unknowingly given certain situations that could come about with or without your control.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 3:20 PM
I understand constructive possession, that it is not restricted by physical possession nor distance. Constructive possession applies regarding SBR, certainly. I do not believe constructive possession applies when one has a "mix & match" collection of long guns and handguns - if one owns legally configured AR long guns and legally configured AR handguns there is no jeopardy one will be charged with constructive possession because a shorter than 16" upper could be removed from the handgun and attached to an AR long gun.

If they can prove I've done the modification that's not constructive possession that's actually doing the deed. Weaver was charged for doing, not for saying he would do and I think that's the difference.

I own 4 T/C frames - a Contender and an Encore each purchased and configured as handguns (they were bought before the 4473 "other" option") and a Contender and an Encore each purchased and configured as long guns. I have screwdrivers, I have Allen wrenches - everything I need to do an illegal SBR switch were I so inclined. If someone has been pinched under such circumstances I would be very interested to know.

I also know the T/C rulings. You are missing the point of this OP, or where this OP has gone.

1) We are not talking about owning a pistol and a rifle and tools.

2) We are talking about owning a pistol, and items needed to convert that pistol to a rifle or SBR and tools.

#2 is CP. Yes if you own a T/C pistol and the T/C conversion kit to make it a rifle...it is POSSIBLE to charge you with CP, no matter what ATF has said. What they say has no bearing on what a Federal Prosecutor does. ATF is merely the guiding body, not the head.

If you own a T/C rifle and a T/C kit to change it to a pistol, then it is easier to charge you with a crime...thats all..its just easier. Pistol to rifle to pistol is just harder to prove.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 3:20 PM
It is interesting how that works, there is truly no way to defend yourself without putting yourself at risk knowingly or sometimes unknowingly given certain situations that could come about with or without your control.

You don't know the half of it.

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 3:21 PM
Without taking California law into account. The answer is "no" you are not in constructive possession of a SBR. Since ATF has ruled that any virgin receiver (even one with a stock attached) can be made into a pistol, rifle, shotgun or other, you have all the legal makings for either a pistol or a rifle. Now, once you build a rifle and no longer possess a virgin lower for your pistol upper, one could easily and rightfully argue that you are in constructive possession of a SBR.

That would be my answer also according to my layman understanding of the law, what constitutes a long gun and constructive possession - having done about the dumbest thing possible might apply, but I don't think that's against the law.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 3:30 PM
That would be my answer also according to my layman understanding of the law, what constitutes a long gun and constructive possession - having done about the dumbest thing possible might apply, but I don't think that's against the law.

:banghead: LOL

dFletcher...it is against the law. If they choose not to file charges is not up to you.

You say, "gee golly, that was stupid of me. I shouldn't have done that."

They say, "Too bad, you are under arrest", and your life becomes a nightmare.

They don't even need a valid law to make your life a living hell. That is CP. Even more in CA with AW laws its even more dangerous. No CP doesn't work into AW law, but the wide open AW law means what you think might just be a dumb move is ILLEGAL and a free win for a DA. Thats their whole job...to win cases. You think they are going to just get a laugh with you and say, gee golly don't do that again. They are going after you with the entire tax base of CA as financial backing. there is a member here who lived that nightmare...several in fact.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 3:41 PM
Why would it be against the law? If it is perfectly legal to take a complete virgin AR lower, remove the stock and build it into a handgun, how could his senerio be illegal?

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 3:41 PM
That would be my answer also according to my layman understanding of the law, what constitutes a long gun and constructive possession - having done about the dumbest thing possible might apply, but I don't think that's against the law.

Having done the dumbest thing possible often times is against the law, it is not called the stupid law but it has many other terms. for example: "Posession of unregistered machine gun", "Unregistered Assault Weapon", " 3 strikes for nonviolent offenders"... just to name a few

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 3:44 PM
Why would it be against the law? If it is perfectly legal to take a complete virgin AR lower, remove the stock and build it into a handgun, how could his senerio be illegal?

Having done the dumbest thing possible often times is against the law, it is not called the stupid law but it has many other terms. for example: "Posession of unregistered machine gun", "Unregistered Assault Weapon", " 3 strikes for nonviolent offenders"... just to name a few

this. I was referring to his thinking that just because he did something dumb, doesn't make it illegal...but in fact in CA and under federal law most likely doing the dumb thing is illegal.

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 3:55 PM
:banghead: LOL

dFletcher...it is against the law. If they choose not to file charges is not up to you.

You say, "gee golly, that was stupid of me. I shouldn't have done that."

They say, "Too bad, you are under arrest", and your life becomes a nightmare.

They don't even need a valid law to make your life a living hell. That is CP. Even more in CA with AW laws its even more dangerous. No CP doesn't work into AW law, but the wide open AW law means what you think might just be a dumb move is ILLEGAL and a free win for a DA. Thats their whole job...to win cases. You think they are going to just get a laugh with you and say, gee golly don't do that again. They are going after you with the entire tax base of CA as financial backing. there is a member here who lived that nightmare...several in fact.

I suppose we're just going to politely disagree on these matters.

My question was very narrow regarding constructive possession, not what could be done or how miserable my life could be made by the law. I agree with you, having the police discover such an arrangement would be a royal PITA - having to explain it would probably be done in court and cost some money.

But in the example I used, no long gun exists because the AR lower was 4473'd as "other" - it does not cease being "other" and attain long gun status until it has a shoulder stock AND greater than 16" barrel attached. In the example I said that had not occured. If no long gun exists - how do we have constructive possession? We do not.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 4:04 PM
I suppose we're just going to politely disagree on these matters.

My question was very narrow regarding constructive possession, not what could be done or how miserable my life could be made by the law. I agree with you, having the police discover such an arrangement would be a royal PITA - having to explain it would probably be done in court and cost some money.

But in the example I used, no long gun exists because the AR lower was 4473'd as "other" - it does not cease being "other" and attain long gun status until it has a shoulder stock AND greater than 16" barrel attached. In the example I said that had not occured. If no long gun exists - how do we have constructive possession? We do not.

I would have to agree with this, it would not qualify as one or the other until it is in a firing capable configuration, afterwards though I think it could get a little tricky if you have the short barrel around the completed long gun.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 4:05 PM
I suppose we're just going to politely disagree on these matters.

My question was very narrow regarding constructive possession, not what could be done or how miserable my life could be made by the law. I agree with you, having the police discover such an arrangement would be a royal PITA - having to explain it would probably be done in court and cost some money.

But in the example I used, no long gun exists because the AR lower was 4473'd as "other" - it does not cease being "other" and attain long gun status until it has a shoulder stock AND greater than 16" barrel attached. In the example I said that had not occurred. If no long gun exists - how do we have constructive possession? We do not.

Correct, but once again Viper was asking about modifying a pistol...an actual firearm ...into a rifle. The OP then turned to CP on reversing that.... which can't be done legally in CA. (unless you are mega rich or own a Movie production company).

Viper and I have been PMing, I sent him a little story on how easy it is to get in a world of hurt. As I said and what we old timers here know to be true... There ARE several members here who have spent THOUSANDS of $ on legal fees because of stupid stuff. There are convicted felons on this website because of a facebook page photo or a school 990 feet from a gas station.

Viper asked about laws on modifying pistols to rifles, not collecting parts.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 4:10 PM
Correct, but once again Viper was asking about modifying a pistol...an actual firearm ...into a rifle. The OP then turned to CP on reversing that.... which can't be done legally in CA. (unless you are mega rich or own a Movie production company).

Viper and I have been PMing, I sent him a little story on how easy it is to get in a world of hurt. As I said and what we old timers here know to be true... There ARE several members here who have spent THOUSANDS of $ on legal fees because of stupid stuff. There are convicted felons on this website because of a facebook page photo or a school 990 feet from a gas station.

Viper asked about laws on modifying pistols to rifles, not collecting parts.

This is true, the original discussion was based on if you owned a complete pistol registered AR if it could be legally converted into a rifle and back into a pistol. Understanding that you cannot do that without proper permits which are not available to I would estimate about 95% of the people in CA it is a done question. Stock piling parts and things of that nature get tricky, however the original point as well as the story through the PM thoroughly answered my original post and definately I may get an AR Pistol sometimes but based on this I am just going to go with a stripped lower cause I primarily want a full rifle. If it were legal to go back and forth than sure I would get the pistol, since it is not AR-15 build here I come.

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 4:24 PM
This is true, the original discussion was based on if you owned a complete pistol registered AR if it could be legally converted into a rifle and back into a pistol. Understanding that you cannot do that without proper permits which are not available to I would estimate about 95% of the people in CA it is a done question. Stock piling parts and things of that nature get tricky, however the original point as well as the story through the PM thoroughly answered my original post and definately I may get an AR Pistol sometimes but based on this I am just going to go with a stripped lower cause I primarily want a full rifle. If it were legal to go back and forth than sure I would get the pistol, since it is not AR-15 build here I come.

Understood - and I agree regarding configuration. I think this is an area in which firearms technology has largely outpaced the law. I suppose 70 years ago or so when "reconfiguring" meant lopping off a barrel with a hacksaw things were clear cut. But we now have the ability, without gunsmith skills nor tools beyond a screwdriver, to switch from AR long gun to AR handgun (even AR shotgun I believe) & the same with T/C guns, now Rossi and maybe others. The different purchase age I suppose presents a challenge, but it seems to me that is something that could be dealt with while allowing the reconfiguration in general.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 5:32 PM
agreed..now toss in conversion systems and firearms that shoot Pistol, rifle and shotgun cartridge with little to no work.

Take the Judge .45 which shoots 410 shotgun rounds without a single part swap. Whats the legal barrel length for the rifle version? Its a handgun revolver no different than a 1970s S&W .38, yet in CA its an AW!!!!











edit...12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

Quiet
04-13-2011, 5:37 PM
agreed..now toss in conversion systems and firearms that shoot Pistol, rifle and shotgun cartridge with little to no work.

Take the Judge .45 which shoots 410 shotgun rounds without a single part swap. Whats the legal barrel length for the rifle version? Its a handgun revolver no different than a 1970s S&W .38, yet in CA its an AW SBS!!!!

Fixed it for you.

The Taurus Judge and any other .45LC/.410 handgun is considered a SBS under CA laws [PC 12020(c)(1)(A)&(B)].

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 5:41 PM
Fixed it for you.

The Taurus Judge and any other .45LC/.410 handgun is considered a SBS under CA laws [PC 12020(c)(1)(A)&(B)].

no, you just added another law...

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

The Judge with any length barrel is an AW.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 6:59 PM
no, you just added another law...

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

The Judge with any length barrel is an AW.

I believe Diesel is correct on this one, this is not a barrel or overall length issue, it goes to a simple breakdown of what a weapon simply cannot have for the given type of weapon. For another example the Saiga 12 ga, it takes a magazine and therefore must always have a bullet button or radlock for it to be legal regardless of having a pistol grip or anything of that nature.

Quiet
04-13-2011, 7:59 PM
Under Federal laws...
... the Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410 is a handgun.

Under CA laws...
... handguns can also be defined as a SBR/SBS. [PC 12001(f)]
... a firearm with a barrel length shorter than 18" and can fire a shotgun shell is a SBS. [PC 12020(c)(1)(A)]
... a firearm with an overall length shorter than 26" and can fire a shotgun shell is a SBS. [PC 12020(c)(1)(B)]
... a shotgun is a firearm made/intended to be fired from the shoulder that can fire shotgun shells. [PC 12020(c)(21)]
... a shotgun with a revolving cylinder is an assault weapon. [PC 12276.1(a)(8)]

The Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410 is a SBS because of PC 12001(f), 12020(c)(1)(A) and 12020(c)(1)(B).

The Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410 is not a shotgun because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder (it does not have a shoulder stock).
Therefore, since it is not a shotgun, the shotgun assault weapons laws do not apply.

However, due to how CA laws defines a SBS, a firearm can be classified as a SBS without it ever being a shotgun.


Penal Code 12001
(a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

Penal Code 12020
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 8:17 PM
doesn't matter.

12020 (c) (any number) doesn't define AWs in law.

I don't want to get into a huge debate..LOL (yeah I know Dieselpower not wanting a debate...), but 12020 (c) is not chargeable crimes nor can they be held up as the be-all end-all definitions in CA law.

we are dealing with AW law here. PC12275 thru PC12290

If it is called a shotgun, if its marketed as a shotgun, if it is designed or redesigned to fire shotgun ammo...guess what under 12276 AW law...its a shotgun.

12276. As used in this chapter, "assault weapon" shall mean the following designated semiautomatic firearms

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following



its no different than PC12021.5
(c) As used in this section, the following definitions shall apply:
(1) "Detachable magazine" means a device that is designed or redesigned to do all of the following:
(A) To be attached to a rifle that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.
(B) To be attached to, and detached from, a rifle that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.
(C) To feed ammunition continuously and directly into the loading mechanism of a rifle that is designed or redesigned to fire ammunition.

so are our rifles with Bullet Buttons illegal????? No. Because PC 12276 defines AWs...and I am sorry to tell you a shotgun with a revolving cylinder even with a rifled bore is an AW.

Quiet
04-13-2011, 8:32 PM
PC 12020(a)(1) outlaws SBS.
PC 12020(c)(1) defines what a SBS is.
If you are in possession of a SBS as defined under PC 12020(c)(1), you will be charged with violating PC 12020(a)(1).

It does not meet the legal definition of a shotgun.
Either under Federal laws [18 USC 921(a)(5)] or under CA state laws [PC 12020(c)(21)].

If it does not meet the legal definition of a shotgun, how can the assault weapons laws for shotguns apply to it?

In regards to the Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410, what makes it illegal is CA's SBS laws not CA's assault weapons laws.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 8:42 PM
PC 12020(a)(1) outlaws SBS.
PC 12020(c)(1) defines what a SBS is.
If you are in possession of a SBS as defined under PC 12020(c)(1), you will be charged with violating PC 12020(a)(1).

It does not meet the legal definition of a shotgun.
Either under Federal laws [18 USC 921(a)(5)] or under CA state laws [PC 12020(c)(21)].

If it does not meet the legal definition of a shotgun, how can the assault weapons laws for shotguns apply to it?

In regards to the Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410, what makes it illegal is CA's SBS laws not CA's assault weapons laws.

my my this has become such an interesting feed... I say we just let the debate go on, diesel the ball is in your court.

Vipersx911
04-13-2011, 8:45 PM
Under Federal laws...
... the Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410 is a handgun.

Under CA laws...
... handguns can also be defined as a SBR/SBS. [PC 12001(f)]
... a firearm with a barrel length shorter than 18" and can fire a shotgun shell is a SBS. [PC 12020(c)(1)(A)]
... a firearm with an overall length shorter than 26" and can fire a shotgun shell is a SBS. [PC 12020(c)(1)(B)]
... a shotgun is a firearm made/intended to be fired from the shoulder that can fire shotgun shells. [PC 12020(c)(21)]
... a shotgun with a revolving cylinder is an assault weapon. [PC 12276.1(a)(8)]

The Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410 is a SBS because of PC 12001(f), 12020(c)(1)(A) and 12020(c)(1)(B).

The Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410 is not a shotgun because it is not intended to be fired from the shoulder (it does not have a shoulder stock).
Therefore, since it is not a shotgun, the shotgun assault weapons laws do not apply.

However, due to how CA laws defines a SBS, a firearm can be classified as a SBS without it ever being a shotgun.


Penal Code 12001
(a)(1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol," "revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel a projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
(f) Nothing shall prevent a device defined as a "handgun," "pistol," "revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person" from also being found to be a short-barreled shotgun or a short-barreled rifle, as defined in Section 12020.

Penal Code 12020
(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
(A) A firearm which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell and having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(C) Any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C) inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, can be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
(21) As used in this section, a "shotgun" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger.

Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

Interesting is their definition of a shotgun itself, if a shotgun per say were to not have a shoulder stock, but was still designed to shoot shotgun ammo for example a mossberg 500 cruiser, would it than not meed the definition of a shotgun under this law? I know it is sold as a shotgun, everyone refers to it as a shotgun, however it does not fire from the shoulder....... Also, how would a handgun be a SBR under CA law not familiar with this PC#...

Quiet
04-13-2011, 9:07 PM
Interesting is their definition of a shotgun itself, if a shotgun per say were to not have a shoulder stock, but was still designed to shoot shotgun ammo for example a mossberg 500 cruiser, would it than not meed the definition of a shotgun under this law? I know it is sold as a shotgun, everyone refers to it as a shotgun, however it does not fire from the shoulder....... Also, how would a handgun be a SBR under CA law not familiar with this PC#...
Under Federal laws...
Actually, the "cruiser style shotgun" is not transfered as a shotgun but as an "other".
Hence the reason why you need to be 21+ years old to acuire one through a FFL dealer and if you shorten the barrel to under 18" it becomes an AOW, not a SBS.

PC 12001(f) states a handgun can also be defined as a SBR or a SBS.
Under CA laws, the defintion of a SBS is in under PC 12020(c)(1) and the definition of a SBR is under PC 12020(c)(2).

dieselpower
04-13-2011, 9:33 PM
PC 12020(a)(1) outlaws SBS.
PC 12020(c)(1) defines what a SBS is.
If you are in possession of a SBS as defined under PC 12020(c)(1), you will be charged with violating PC 12020(a)(1).

It does not meet the legal definition of a shotgun.
Either under Federal laws [18 USC 921(a)(5)] or under CA state laws [PC 12020(c)(21)].

If it does not meet the legal definition of a shotgun, how can the assault weapons laws for shotguns apply to it?

In regards to the Taurus Judge in .45LC/.410, what makes it illegal is CA's SBS laws not CA's assault weapons laws.

I am not charging you with 12020. Nothing in 12020 has any meaning here.

I am charging you with 12280 as defined under 12276.1(8) the second your lawyer attempts to bring up 12020 definitions I will ask the Judge to shut you down.

In the same respect I can charge a minor as an adult, I can define an AW without calling 12020 into play.

as per the manufacture...

As a well-known handgun enthusiast among my friends and acquaintances, I get a lot of questions about various guns. Lately, the questions have been mostly about the Taurus Judge line of revolvers chambered to shoot .410 shotgun shells. These guns have drawn intense interest because they seem to break the established rules, harnessing some of the advantages of a shotgun in a pistol-sized package.

The Gun

The basic idea behind the Judge family of revolvers is so simple, it’s a wonder someone didn’t do this sooner. The Judge models are five-shot revolvers with a lengthened cylinder to accept standard .410 shotgun shells. The beauty of a shotgun, of course, is the variety of ammo choices and the resulting versatility. The Judge revolvers will shoot birdshot, buckshot or slugs depending upon the job at hand. And, as a bonus, the same revolvers will chamber and shoot .45 Colt (often referred to as .45 Long Colt) ammo as well, opening up even more ballistic options.



I don't need to define your crime with PC12020. Your defense can not offer other crimes or definitions of crimes.

Its like telling me I can not charge you with rape, because a law on Child molesting defines what you did as sexual assault.

You don't get to charge yourself...the DA files charges. Under the AW laws the Judge is a shotgun.


edit, I am not an ADA or DA or lawyer, I am just debating a point of law.

Vipersx911
04-14-2011, 1:14 PM
I am not charging you with 12020. Nothing in 12020 has any meaning here.

I am charging you with 12280 as defined under 12276.1(8) the second your lawyer attempts to bring up 12020 definitions I will ask the Judge to shut you down.

In the same respect I can charge a minor as an adult, I can define an AW without calling 12020 into play.

as per the manufacture...



I don't need to define your crime with PC12020. Your defense can not offer other crimes or definitions of crimes.

Its like telling me I can not charge you with rape, because a law on Child molesting defines what you did as sexual assault.

You don't get to charge yourself...the DA files charges. Under the AW laws the Judge is a shotgun.


edit, I am not an ADA or DA or lawyer, I am just debating a point of law.

Personally I would believe the definition would have to come up in court if that is what the charges were to be taken from.

dieselpower
04-14-2011, 2:14 PM
Personally I would believe the definition would have to come up in court if that is what the charges were to be taken from.

yes and the DA will define the shotgun without using 12020. The Judge will not allow the defense to bring up other crimes not related to the crime of 12280... as I said..

Just cuz a law on child molesting defines X as sexual assault, doesn't mean a rape is over looked or not valid because it too is X.

AW law says a shotgun with a revolving cylinder = an AW. Thats all that is needed with the manufacturers description of the firearm.

ke6guj
04-14-2011, 3:13 PM
yes and the DA will define the shotgun without using 12020. The Judge will not allow the defense to bring up other crimes not related to the crime of 12280... as I said..

Just cuz a law on child molesting defines X as sexual assault, doesn't mean a rape is over looked or not valid because it too is X.

AW law says a shotgun with a revolving cylinder = an AW. Thats all that is needed with the manufacturers description of the firearm.and what will he use to define "shotgun". CA has no definition of shotgun other than in 12020. Will he rely on the federal definition of shotgun instead?


478.11 Meaning of terms.

Shotgun. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

dieselpower
04-14-2011, 4:06 PM
and what will he use to define "shotgun". CA has no definition of shotgun other than in 12020. Will he rely on the federal definition of shotgun instead?


The manufactures own words defines it. Nothing more is needed. You keep thinking you get to pick and choose what laws can be entered into court...you can not. The DA files charges.

The Judge is not going to allow you to enter another laws definition as a defense to a crime.

Why is this hard to understand. LOL

My defense is please define a shotgun...

heres the manufactures product description..

NO I want to use PC12020

Too bad..I am not charging your client with a violation of 12020. The violation is pc12280 as defined by 12276.1(8).

If you think a good defense is to plead with a jury that because the barrel has rifling and another law says that isn't a shotgun, when the manufacture says its a shotgun, it takes shotgun shells, & 12280 doesn't care if it is a smooth bore and neither does 12276.1...you gonna see a jail cell real quick.

this isn't rocket science.

Vipersx911
04-14-2011, 5:35 PM
yes and the DA will define the shotgun without using 12020. The Judge will not allow the defense to bring up other crimes not related to the crime of 12280... as I said..

Just cuz a law on child molesting defines X as sexual assault, doesn't mean a rape is over looked or not valid because it too is X.

AW law says a shotgun with a revolving cylinder = an AW. Thats all that is needed with the manufacturers description of the firearm.

Well I think that is correct, and often tmes the DA will charge one count of both crimes based off the definition and even though you did one thing you will end up with sometimes three or four different charges stemming from the one crime. Nothing is simple when it comes to prosecution there are many different things that can just tack on more offenses.

Turbinator
02-28-2012, 3:49 PM
Yeah, but it all comes back to, "once a rifle always a rifle" Once you have made a rifle....EOS (end of story). Its a one way street.

I can take my Glock 17, attach a stock and 16" barrel to it while hiding in my closet and if I change it back to a pistol I am committing a felony punishable by 20 years, no less than 18 years.

The mere fact I own the stock and 16" barrel can be used to suggest I made such a rifle. This is constructive possession. Will it be used against me? maybe, maybe not. It all depends on why the ATF is at my house. The fact IT CAN BE USED to put you away fro 20 years should keep you away from walking down that road.

Reviving this thread to discuss a relatively new BATFE ruling. Please see here -

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Dated July 25th, 2011.

DISCLAIMER - MY TAKE from reading this - The long and short of it is, if you have a pistol, turn it into a rifle, you can turn it back into a pistol, legally. Scroll all the way to the bottom of the ruling to read the conclusions.

So - interpretation - you could start with an AR pistol, turn it into a rifle, and then go back to a pistol, all Federally legal, based on this recent ruling.

Thoughts? Or am I out of whack?

Turby

ke6guj
02-28-2012, 4:14 PM
Reviving this thread to discuss a relatively new BATFE ruling. Please see here -

http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf

Dated July 25th, 2011.

DISCLAIMER - MY TAKE from reading this - The long and short of it is, if you have a pistol, turn it into a rifle, you can turn it back into a pistol, legally. Scroll all the way to the bottom of the ruling to read the conclusions.

So - interpretation - you could start with an AR pistol, turn it into a rifle, and then go back to a pistol, all Federally legal, based on this recent ruling.

Thoughts? Or am I out of whack?

Turby
yup, that ruling is known, and it matches up with my letter from BATFE that says that a long gun DROS'ed stripped receiver can be built up as a pistol without being a federally-defined SBR.

However, niether that ruling, nor my letter, deal with CA law. CA can easily argue that in both cases you have an SBR. Because of that, it is not recommended that you do either at this time.

Turbinator
02-28-2012, 4:30 PM
yup, that ruling is known, and it matches up with my letter from BATFE that says that a long gun DROS'ed stripped receiver can be built up as a pistol without being a federally-defined SBR.

However, niether that ruling, nor my letter, deal with CA law. CA can easily argue that in both cases you have an SBR. Because of that, it is not recommended that you do either at this time.

Just to clarify -

Pistol config -> rifle -> pistol config

...is not advised in CA, although Federally, this appears to be legal?

Turby

ke6guj
02-28-2012, 4:32 PM
correct.

RAMCHARGER
02-29-2012, 12:13 PM
Wondering if anyone out there knew the legalities of converting a registered AR Pistol into the rifle version. I understand that as long as the California Assault Weapons Laws are not broken it should be ok to my understanding, anyone have any further insight on this subject or references that I could look up to read the laws in relation to this specific case.

Thanks Guys as always

I think he means "I bought a AR pistol and it ain't doing it for me. Can I slap a 16" upper on it and a stock and be OK... IF... IF I also sell off the original pistol upper BEFORE I buy the stock for it?" :)

BTW can you own both AR rifle AND AR pistol??? I mean if want to buy a AR pistol do I then have to only get a NON AR rifle like a Mini-14?