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dagger10k
04-13-2011, 12:04 AM
Is this a requirement? Most of the places I've seen don't care if it is the same, and http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/resprf.php seems to indicate that it does not matter:

# Residential lease that bears both of the following:

1. The name of the transferee.
2. Either the residential address declared by the transferee on the DROS form, or the address as it appears on the transferee's CDL or CID.

From all I've seen here also, it looks like the proof of residence has to be for your current residence, while the driver's license does not.

Is there any truth to the idea that they must match?

I've heard from one place that I have to get an "address correction" document (SMUD utility bill or Vehicle Registration) to the same address as my proof of residence in order to do the DROS.

Thoughts?

ke6guj
04-13-2011, 12:10 AM
no, your POR does not need to match your DL. Your POR needs to match your current address as listed on the DROS. In addition, if you DL address does not match what is listed on the 4473, federal law requires you to have a .gov-issued document that has the same address as listed on your 4473.

jtmkinsd
04-13-2011, 12:40 AM
If the address on your license/ID is not your current address, you must provide something from a government agency which does have your current address on it. Most in this instance use a car registration, property tax bill, voter registration card, government owned utility bill. Any one of these will satisfy both the federal requirement for supporting documentation of current address, and the state's requirement for secondary proof of residency.

dagger10k
04-13-2011, 12:44 AM
Ah, ok. That's the distinction I was missing. Hmm. The store in question suggested I get vehicle registration, which is not an option for me.

I'll see if the store will accept a voter registration card or something similiar.

ke6guj
04-13-2011, 12:48 AM
I can see a voter registration card working for federal POR, but since, AFAIK, a registration card does not expire, that it would not be acceptable as state POR.

tenpercentfirearms wrote up a nice cheat sheet that covers all the ways that POR applies to the DROS and 4473, http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=327217

dagger10k
04-13-2011, 12:54 AM
Thanks for the cheat sheet. That is very helpful. A W2 would be ideal for me, because I already have one, unlike the other things.

I have a lease from the property I'm renting right now that I could use for state POR, and the W2, or DMV printout could be used for federal. Sounds perfect.

I'll call tomorrow and see if the FFL will take any of these documents.

ke6guj
04-13-2011, 1:01 AM
glad it helped.

seeing it broke down step by step, with detailed examples of what will work to satisfy each requirement helps.

looks like you got it figured out, lease to cover state POR (note that some FFLs want the lease document notarized, even though there appears to be no legal requirement that requires it) and the W2 or DMV printout to cover federal.

But like you said, it all depends on the FFL. bring that cheat sheet with you, and if he denies one document, you cna look at the sheet to see what else you might have that would work. splitting up state and federal POR needs makes it easier. deal with one POR and then the other.

IntoForever
04-13-2011, 1:42 AM
</serious> What if a person was homeless? Does their 2nd A get infringed upon? Do they deserve less to be able to protect themselves?

Letitrip
04-13-2011, 7:56 AM
^ I agree. Another example is: What if a retired person who was living off of a moving RV wanted to buy a gun? Are their 2nd amendment rights revoked?

ke6guj
04-13-2011, 8:05 AM
</serious> What if a person was homeless? Does their 2nd A get infringed upon? Do they deserve less to be able to protect themselves?at this point in time, yes, their rights are infringed.

^ I agree. Another example is: What if a retired person who was living off of a moving RV wanted to buy a gun? Are their 2nd amendment rights revoked?
IIRC, there have been lawsuits involving that scenario, but right now, I dont' recall the status. But remember this, those people in the RV must have some sort of mailing address to cover the registration of the RV, so that might be usable to do the DROS.

mrjones98
04-13-2011, 8:10 AM
But remember this, those people in the RV must have some sort of mailing address to cover the registration of the RV, so that might be usable to do the DROS.

They could be using a PO Box (as I do for most of my mail, including my DL/ID) which is not acceptable.

Letitrip
04-13-2011, 8:21 AM
^ Yes, that is what I use too. Although i am nowhere near retirement age, due to the sensitivity of the work I do, I never have anything attached to my actual residential address everything is sent to a P.O. Box. When I do have to DROS an item, I usually have to do all sorts of crazy arrangements to meet the criteria.

Anyway, back to living on a rolling RV, that is actually my future plan after retirement, at least for a few years, and I think its BS that it will technically disqualify me from DROSING.

Ripon83
04-13-2011, 8:26 AM
The store I just used for a PPT for a hand gun used my DL and signed lease agreement but they did demand the same address be on both.

DragRag
04-13-2011, 10:58 AM
The last new gun I bought I had to show I.D. of course, and mine has a P.O box on it, not good enough as stated earlier. The only other form of gov I.D. I had on me was my CCW. I reluctantly showed then that, and it was good enough for there purpose. Then they asked how I got that....lol.

Dirk Tungsten
04-13-2011, 11:15 AM
OP, if you have a SMUD bill it should work. Everything of mine has a P.O. Box listed, and every FFL I've ever gone to has honored it since SMUD is technically a govt agency.

dagger10k
04-13-2011, 11:16 AM
We have PG&E, and it's in my room-mate's name sadly. They did mention a SMUD bill, but I can't use it.

OP, if you have a SMUD bill it should work. Everything of mine has a P.O. Box listed, and every FFL I've ever gone to has honored it since SMUD is technically a govt agency.

USMC VET
04-13-2011, 11:17 AM
Ah, ok. That's the distinction I was missing. Hmm. The store in question suggested I get vehicle registration, which is not an option for me.

I'll see if the store will accept a voter registration card or something similiar.

I went to DMV and got an information request and it worked for me.

Taxidave
04-13-2011, 8:52 PM
I have an UPS Store mailbox with a Street address and unit # on all my documents. Would that work or would the State figure it's a mailbox and deny??

QQQ
04-13-2011, 8:59 PM
Protip: Get a HAM radio license.

It's relatively inexpensive and not very difficult, and can lead to a great hobby.
And it's what I use as POR for handgun purchases. Yes, it has my name and address, is government-issued, and has an expiration date.

jtmkinsd
04-13-2011, 10:25 PM
I have an UPS Store mailbox with a Street address and unit # on all my documents. Would that work or would the State figure it's a mailbox and deny??

That would be a definite negative.

Taxidave
04-13-2011, 10:31 PM
That would be a definite negative.

negative on the denial or negative on the address?

Veggie
04-13-2011, 10:37 PM
DL is proof of residency. You only need additional proof when your DL address is not current. Any thing more is just gun stores being stupid.

kmchui
04-13-2011, 11:02 PM
Turner's in West Covina requires that your DL address match a secondary POR. I got screwed during my first PPT last month, and had to come back the week after to start the DROS process.

Sh*tty.

QQQ
04-13-2011, 11:11 PM
DL is proof of residency. You only need additional proof when your DL address is not current. Any thing more is just gun stores being stupid.

Incorrect.

jtmkinsd
04-14-2011, 1:00 AM
negative on the denial or negative on the address?

I have to look into it, but I think it's fair to say using a "mail drop" as proof of residency would be a no-no for firearm purchases. I could be wrong, but until I find a code or get some authoritative guidance, I wouldn't even submit your DROS.

ke6guj
04-14-2011, 1:40 PM
I have to look into it, but I think it's fair to say using a "mail drop" as proof of residency would be a no-no for firearm purchases. I could be wrong, but until I find a code or get some authoritative guidance, I wouldn't even submit your DROS.

if you didn't tell the FFL that it was a mail drop address, it would probably go through just fine, but that doesn't mean that it was legal to do so.

a "mail drop" address isn't a "current residence address". YOu don't live at the mail drop address.

Taxidave
04-14-2011, 7:14 PM
if you didn't tell the FFL that it was a mail drop address, it would probably go through just fine, but that doesn't mean that it was legal to do so.

a "mail drop" address isn't a "current residence address". YOu don't live at the mail drop address.

I LIVE wherever I'm at. I sleep at different locations. I do park my minivan/RV there a couple times a week.

ke6guj
04-14-2011, 7:38 PM
If you can honestly swear that that is your current residence address, them by all means, go ahead and put that down on your 4473. ATF and CADOJ might feel differently.

wizard101
04-14-2011, 7:42 PM
Ain't California great?

ke6guj
04-14-2011, 7:45 PM
Ain't California great?its not just CA, federal law requires that you have .gov documentation with your current address.

Taxidave
04-14-2011, 7:51 PM
What is the process for purchasing a firearm in California?

All firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a licensed dealer under the Dealer Record of Sale (DROS) process. California imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a buyer or transferee. A person must be at least 18 years of age to purchase a rifle or shotgun. To buy a handgun, a person must be at least 21 years of age, and either 1) possess an HSC plus successfully complete a safety demonstration with the handgun being purchased or 2) qualify for an HSC exemption.

As part of the DROS process, the buyer must present "clear evidence of identity and age" which is defined as a valid, non-expired California Driver's License or Identification Card issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles. A military identification accompanied by permanent duty station orders indicating a posting in California is also acceptable.

If the buyer is not a U.S. Citizen, then he or she is required to demonstrate that he or she is legally within the United States by providing to the firearms dealer with documentation that contains his/her Alien Registration Number or I-94 Number.

Purchasers of handguns are also required to provide proof of California residency, such as a utility bill, residential lease, property deed, or government-issued identification (other than a drivers license or other DMV-issued identification).

(PC Section 12071)
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#7

Scarecrow Repair
04-18-2011, 6:19 AM
If the address on your license/ID is not your current address, you must provide something from a government agency which does have your current address on it.

Sodden thought: I pick up a gun in a couple of days and had intended to bring in a PG&E bill, but I just renewed my C&R and noticed that it has both the mailing address (PO Box) and premises address (street address). It's a government agency -- it ought to be good enough, no? -- but I have never before thought of using it.

Tripper
04-18-2011, 6:58 AM
But wait;
If you haven't filed your change of address with DMV within the allotted time, your drivers license is no longer valid, if u have be sure and write the address on the reverse side

ke6guj
04-18-2011, 7:23 AM
Sodden thought: I pick up a gun in a couple of days and had intended to bring in a PG&E bill, but I just renewed my C&R and noticed that it has both the mailing address (PO Box) and premises address (street address). It's a government agency -- it ought to be good enough, no? -- but I have never before thought of using it.yup, an 03FFL works great for proving POR for both the CA and federal requirements, provided that the dealer is willing to accept it, not all will.

Tripper
04-18-2011, 7:28 AM
I used my bear tag yesterday for POR

Hozr
04-18-2011, 10:25 AM
It seems the common statement I hear amongst FFL's not accepting certain documents is "that's what my agent told me.".

I see two issues here.

1: The FFL is either lazy/ignorant/stupid or a combination thereof for not taking the time to read and understand the 4473.

2: Can we get the names of said "agents" so they can be properly educated.

This really shouldn't be an issue. It's not that difficult.

J.D.Allen
04-18-2011, 10:32 AM
If the address on your license/ID is not your current address, you must provide something from a government agency which does have your current address on it. Most in this instance use a car registration, property tax bill, voter registration card, government owned utility bill. Any one of these will satisfy both the federal requirement for supporting documentation of current address, and the state's requirement for secondary proof of residency.

Interesting. I just bought a gun and my dealer didn't require anything like that. My DL was the only ID I presented and it has an old address.

QQQ
04-18-2011, 10:35 AM
Interesting. I just bought a gun and my dealer didn't require anything like that. My DL was the only ID I presented and it has an old address.

1) Are you living in AZ and did you buy the gun in AZ? If not, CA has different rules.
2) If it was in CA, was it a handgun? The second POR requirement does not apply to rifles or shotguns.

dreslinger
04-18-2011, 10:52 AM
See this thread. Same thing happened to me with a brown card.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=359711

ke6guj
04-18-2011, 11:17 AM
Interesting. I just bought a gun and my dealer didn't require anything like that. My DL was the only ID I presented and it has an old address.

did you write your current address on the 4473, or the old address? federal law requires that the address listed on the 4473 match your ID, or that you have some other .gov-documentation that has your listed address on it.

J.D.Allen
04-18-2011, 11:32 AM
1) Are you living in AZ and did you buy the gun in AZ? If not, CA has different rules.
2) If it was in CA, was it a handgun? The second POR requirement does not apply to rifles or shotguns.

I bought it in AZ, but we're talking about federal requirements right? I put my current address on the 4473, which is different than the address on my DL. The only wrinkle I can think of is that AZ MVD (our version of DMV) does not issue anything showing your new address when you change it. I updated my address with them, but have nothing to show that. That's just their policy. I wonder if that has anything to do with it...

ke6guj
04-18-2011, 11:37 AM
from the 4473;

Que s t ion 20.b. Al t e rna t e Document a t ion: Licensees may accept a combination
of valid government-issued document s to satisfy the identification document
requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identiiieation document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee may
be supplemented by anothe r valid, government-issued document showing the
transferee's residence address. This alternate documentation should be recorded
in question 20.b., with issuing authority and type of identification prcsented. A
combination of government-issued document s may be provided, For example. i f
a U.S. citizen has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State
X, he may provide a dr ive r ' s license (showing his name, date ofbirth, and
photograph) issued by St a t e Y and anothe r government-issued document (wch as
a tax document) from State X showing his residence address.ignore the poor copy from the PDF

jtmkinsd
04-18-2011, 12:03 PM
I bought it in AZ, but we're talking about federal requirements right? I put my current address on the 4473, which is different than the address on my DL. The only wrinkle I can think of is that AZ MVD (our version of DMV) does not issue anything showing your new address when you change it. I updated my address with them, but have nothing to show that. That's just their policy. I wonder if that has anything to do with it...

If an agent catches it on an inspection...your dealer will get a talking to...if he's already on a warning, he'll get a fine...if he's already been fined...he could be sitting in a cell.

halifax
04-18-2011, 12:06 PM
from the 4473;

ignore the poor copy from the PDF

English translation:

4473 Instructions:
Question 20.b. Alternate Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, date of birth of transferee may be supplemented by another valid government-issued document showing the transferee's residence address...

:)

jtmkinsd
04-18-2011, 12:06 PM
I have an UPS Store mailbox with a Street address and unit # on all my documents. Would that work or would the State figure it's a mailbox and deny??

From ATF:

Thank you for your inquiry of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), in which you asked about the use of a “UPS Store address as a means to satisfy residency requirements” for acquiring firearms.



A post office box and/or “UPS Store address” is not an acceptable “Residence Address.” Federal law and implementing regulations requires a prospective transferee to present a valid government-issued identification document that meets the statutory definition specified on 27 CFR 478.11. ATF recognizes, however, that some valid government-issued identification documents do not include the bearer's current residence address. Such an identification document may be supplemented with another valid government-issued document that contains the necessary information. Thus, for example, a licensee may accept a valid driver's license that accurately reflects the purchaser's name, date of birth, and photograph, along with a vehicle registration issued by the State indicating the transferee's current address. Licensees should note that if the law of the State that issued the driver's license provides that the driver's license is invalid due to any reason (i.e., the license is expired or is no longer valid due to an unreported change of address), then the driver's license may not be used for identification purposes under the Brady Act. Also, if a licensee has reasonable cause to question the validity of an identification document, he or she should not proceed with the transfer until those questions can be resolved.

The licensee must record on the Form 4473 the type of identification document(s) presented by the transferee, including any document number. Examples of documents that may be accepted to supplement information on a driver's license or other identification document include a vehicle registration, a recreation identification card, a fishing or hunting license, a voter identification card, or a tax bill. However, the document in question must be valid and must have been issued by a government agency.

There may be State laws that govern the acceptance of identification documents. Please be aware that ATF does not have any jurisdiction over State laws. You should forward all inquiries as to State law to your State’s Attorney General Office. They will be able to answer any questions regarding firearms laws in your state. A list is available online at http://www.naag.org.

We trust this correspondence has been responsive to your inquiry. Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact your local ATF Industry Operations Office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.



Regards,



Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF

jtmkinsd
04-18-2011, 12:14 PM
It seems the common statement I hear amongst FFL's not accepting certain documents is "that's what my agent told me.".

I see two issues here.

1: The FFL is either lazy/ignorant/stupid or a combination thereof for not taking the time to read and understand the 4473.

2: Can we get the names of said "agents" so they can be properly educated.

This really shouldn't be an issue. It's not that difficult.

You are free to call BATFE and "educate" them on the laws they are charged with enforcing...I wish you luck in your endeavor.

ke6guj
04-18-2011, 12:16 PM
English translation:



:)thanks:D
I was multi-tasking and didn't get a chance to clean it up. I don't know if it is the new adobe reader client I have, or that ATF adjusted the permissions on the 4473 PDF, but I was suprised that I could copy/paste from the 4473.

J.D.Allen
04-18-2011, 12:59 PM
If an agent catches it on an inspection...your dealer will get a talking to...if he's already on a warning, he'll get a fine...if he's already been fined...he could be sitting in a cell.

Well as long as it's not me getting "talked to" I'm fine with it. I would have happily produced utility bills or something else if he would have asked....

jtmkinsd
04-18-2011, 1:29 PM
Well as long as it's not me getting "talked to" I'm fine with it. I would have happily produced utility bills or something else if he would have asked....

This is why we don't listen to anything the customer says about such things. Not to say you are wrong in your thinking, but certainly you can understand why when we ask for something the customer doesn't think they need to supply, well...I don't care what the customer thinks...they're going to give it to me, or they can find another dealer.

Taxidave
04-18-2011, 7:23 PM
From ATF:

Thanks for the info. So mobile citizens aren't considered residents. What if an applicant is mobile (lives in an RV and parks in a different place every few nights) doesn't have a residence address (other than a GPS location) I guess no more new firearms for me until that requirement changes. I guess until then I'll look into crossbows. I wonder if "Dearth (Hodgkins) v Holder" will have any effect on my situation.

jtmkinsd
04-18-2011, 7:59 PM
Thanks for the info. So mobile citizens aren't considered residents. What if an applicant is mobile (lives in an RV and parks in a different place every few nights) doesn't have a residence address (other than a GPS location) I guess no more new firearms for me until that requirement changes. I guess until then I'll look into crossbows. I wonder if "Dearth (Hodgkins) v Holder" will have any effect on my situation.

The situation poses a real problem for the GCA...it doesn't take into account the problem posed by people who don't have a set "residence"...homeless, RV dwellers, etc.

I guess it would have to be litigated. :shrug:

Perhapse a carefully crafted letter to ATF explaining your situation would give some guidance.

Taxidave
04-21-2011, 12:36 PM
from 27CFR478.11
State of residence. The State in which
an individual resides. An individual resides
in a State if he or she is present
in a State with the intention of making
a home in that State. If an individual
is on active duty as a member of
the Armed Forces, the individual’s
State of residence is the State in which
his or her permanent duty station is located.
An alien who is legally in the
United States shall be considered to be
a resident of a State only if the alien is
residing in the State and has resided in
the State for a period of at least 90
days prior to the date of sale or delivery
of a firearm. The following are examples
that illustrate this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in State X.
A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing,
business, or other type of trip. A does not become
a resident of State Y by reason of such
trip.
Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and maintains
a home in State X and a home in State
Y. A resides in State X except for weekends
or the summer months of the year and in
State Y for the weekends or the summer
months of the year. During the time that A
actually resides in State X, A is a resident of
State X, and during the time that A actually
resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3. A, an alien, travels on vacation
or on a business trip to State X. Regardless
of the length of time A spends in State X, A
does not have a State of residence in State
X. This is because A does not have a home in
State X at which he has resided for at least
90 days.
According to this, I'm a resident as long as I have the intention of making a home. It says nothing of residing in a permanently fixed building. I have made a home, it's just made of sheet metal & plastic and on 4 wheels.

sreiter
04-21-2011, 1:42 PM
at this point in time, yes, their rights are infringed.


IIRC, there have been lawsuits involving that scenario, but right now, I dont' recall the status. But remember this, those people in the RV must have some sort of mailing address to cover the registration of the RV, so that might be usable to do the DROS.

i used to travel a lot for work...and live out of corporate housing.

i used to keep my ups store PO box as my POR - perfectly legal to have a po box on D/L...dont know about that for gun ownership.

The nice thing about a UPS store address, is it doesnt have say "PO BOX" like a usps one does.
I can put box 1234, suite 1234, (or one other thing similar to suite 1234..i cant recall the exact verbiage).

kind of like having have a "store front" to set up nevada or delaware corps for tax purposes....one of those places that businesses use. All it is a a physical address with a secretary. You get mail there and they forward it to you, and a phone number, depending on the extension, the secretary answers the phone with your businesses name.

it's pretty cheap to do

AGAIN

i dont know the legalities of using a mailing address for gun purchase, IANAL and the above is for entertainment use only. do not construe this as any type of legal advise. it isn't.



funnier thing, when i worked/lived in nyc, i had cali mail me registration directly to nyc.....my california car registration had a nyc address on it....

state doesnt care, as long as it gets paid

I wonder????? if i move, can i get a picture "state/county id" card...what people get when they dont drive but need picture id

Taxidave
04-21-2011, 1:58 PM
i used to travel a lot for work...and live out of corporate housing.

i used to keep my ups store PO box as my POR - perfectly legal to have a po box on D/L...dont know about that for gun ownership.

The nice thing about a UPS store address, is it doesnt have say "PO BOX" like a usps one does.
I can put box 1234, suite 1234, (or one other thing similar to suite 1234..i cant recall the exact verbiage).

kind of like having have a "store front" to set up nevada or delaware corps for tax purposes....one of those places that businesses use. All it is a a physical address with a secretary. You get mail there and they forward it to you, and a phone number, depending on the extension, the secretary answers the phone with your businesses name.

it's pretty cheap to do

AGAIN

i dont know the legalities of using a mailing address for gun purchase, IANAL and the above is for entertainment use only. do not construe this as any type of legal advise. it isn't.



funnier thing, when i worked/lived in nyc, i had cali mail me registration directly to nyc.....my california car registration had a nyc address on it....

state doesnt care, as long as it gets paid

I wonder????? if i move, can i get a picture "state/county id" card...what people get when they dont drive but need picture id

an earlier post from "jtmkinsd" had a response from the ATF that nixxed the UPS Store address idea.

bussda
04-21-2011, 2:25 PM
...


IIRC, there have been lawsuits involving that scenario, but right now, I dont' recall the status. But remember this, those people in the RV must have some sort of mailing address to cover the registration of the RV, so that might be usable to do the DROS.

I do not think it has been cited but the case is Dearth (Hodgkins) v Holder. See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=421324 , current status: to disrict court for trial.

sreiter
04-21-2011, 3:37 PM
an earlier post from "jtmkinsd" had a response from the ATF that nixxed the UPS Store address idea.

cool...not being confrontational here....just to clarify, my idea was a state/county pic ID with real POR in addition to D/L if D/L doesn't have proper POR...IF the state/co would issue one....some states, it one or the other

i responded with UPS addy, for those living in RV, then wondered out loud if ups addy would work.