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View Full Version : I'm guessing people in CA will love this...legal crossover between pistol and rifle..


chiburi
04-12-2011, 4:42 PM
See the attached, sent to me by an FFL/friend of mine (I am not affiliated with the dealer in any financial aspect - other than giving him money every time I buy something). XO-26 from Franklin Armory :)

Chib

Iggy
04-12-2011, 4:55 PM
I saw this from my local guy last week. I think it's a good option but I am confused about the whole cocept.

What is a "non-pistol"?

What happens if you put a pistol upper on it? What if that upper gas a VFG?

locosway
04-12-2011, 4:56 PM
I've never ever seen a need for a AR pistol, but it's awesome to see a company doesn't this. Personally I'd like a SBR... :)

MrPlink
04-12-2011, 5:00 PM
hmmmmm, I only have a 10.5in barrel, but given I have a full length rifle tube on mine, its actually bigger than Franklins, maybe I should try to get my own letter from the ATF.



I've never ever seen a need for a AR pistol, but it's awesome to see a company doesn't this. Personally I'd like a SBR... :)

Id love a SBR too, but this CA, hence I have an AR pistol instead... :(

tomd1584
04-12-2011, 5:01 PM
not sure if its worth the $1600 base price they're asking for.

MrPlink
04-12-2011, 5:09 PM
not sure if its worth the $1600 base price they're asking for.

no, probably not. Hence me getting my own letter.

Though truth be told, I far prefer AFGs to VFGs, and even at that I dont even have a VFG on my AR pistol. I guess I just like knowing I legally can.

Just like, I only usually load 3-5 rounds in my guns at a time anyway, and Im mostly a range commando, so not being able to buy "hi-caps" shouldnt bug me,
yet it does.

The more rights, the better

locosway
04-12-2011, 5:12 PM
You're not paying for a $1600 rifle. You're buying a $1k rifle with a $600 piece of paper that says it's legal.

MrPlink
04-12-2011, 5:18 PM
You're not paying for a $1600 rifle. You're buying a $1k rifle with a $600 piece of paper that says it's legal.

when you put it that way, thats a lot of cash for a "rifle" where you dont even get a buttstock... you know, unless you like prison.

SDgarrick
04-12-2011, 5:22 PM
So what does this do that a 11.5 inch AR pistol doesn't? Just the VFG?

ke6guj
04-12-2011, 5:30 PM
pdf is coming through as corrupted.

major burnout
04-12-2011, 5:51 PM
Still a singleshot, right?

djleisure
04-12-2011, 5:52 PM
PDF worked for me, I'm on an iPad though, so I dunno...

I'm always happy to see people thinking outside the box - even if it's not something I would buy, I'm happy it exists.

djleisure
04-12-2011, 5:54 PM
Still a singleshot, right?
You mean, "DROS'd as a singleshot," right? Just making sure you know even AR pistols aren't singleshot, once you get them home.

tomd1584
04-12-2011, 5:54 PM
You're not paying for a $1600 rifle. You're buying a $1k rifle with a $600 piece of paper that says it's legal.

its not a rifle. :chris:

I'm still all about it, and FA bringing it to the market! Just not paying $1600 for it.

rattlesnake_nm
04-12-2011, 6:11 PM
So does this only apply ton their pistol? Mine looks pretty darn similar, just no vert grip. Why would it only apply to their brand? It looks like an assembled ar pistol with a vert grip. Anyone can do that, but theirs is legal? If the opinion applies to their pistol it should apply to all.

Iggy
04-12-2011, 6:29 PM
So does this only apply ton their pistol? Mine looks pretty darn similar, just no vert grip. Why would it only apply to their brand? It looks like an assembled ar pistol with a vert grip. Anyone can do that, but theirs is legal? If the opinion applies to their pistol it should apply to all.


It might have to do that it is DROSED as a "Non-pistol".

rattlesnake_nm
04-12-2011, 6:49 PM
What is DROSED? sorry I live in New Mexico.

Iggy
04-12-2011, 6:55 PM
Dealers Record Of Sale

rattlesnake_nm
04-12-2011, 6:57 PM
Ah. Thanks. I just got a stripped pistol lower, and threw a parts kit in it, and a rra buffertube. I actually bought the lower in a private sale.

dieselpower
04-12-2011, 8:30 PM
So let me get this straight...cuz this is not making sense...

The ATF is now saying a centerfire non-smooth bore firearm without a butt stock, that has two grips and can not be concealed is NOT a pistol, NOT a Rifle and NOT an AOW, but is an "other".

QUESTIONS
1) After I get it, can I change the upper to a 7" if I want and keep the 2nd grip and it is still not an AOW?

2) Can I put a stock on it? Can I then REMOVE the stock to bring it back to "other" since this "other" is NOT an AOW and NOT a pistol.

3) Since in CA I must DROS this as a pistol, after I return it to SA can I replace the upper to a 7" one?

I am thinking the ATF is going to reverse this soon.

4) Whats stopping me from doing this with MY rifle right now? Wheres this ATF letter, memo or ruling....

ke6guj
04-12-2011, 8:45 PM
So let me get this straight...cuz this is not making sense...

The ATF is now saying a centerfire non-smooth bore firearm without a butt stock, that has two grips and can not be concealed is NOT a pistol, NOT a Rifle and NOT an AOW, but is an "other".

QUESTIONS
1) After I get it, can I change the upper to a 7" if I want and keep the 2nd grip and it is still not an AOW?as long as it stays over 26" OAL, then it isn't an AOW. go under 26" and now you have an AOW.

2) Can I put a stock on it? Can I then REMOVE the stock to bring it back to "other" since this "other" is NOT an AOW and NOT a pistol.
this where it isn't clear yet, ATF has conflicting letters about going from non-rifle/shotguns to rifle/shotguns, and then back to non-rifle/shotguns.

3) Since in CA I must DROS this as a pistol, after I return it to SA can I replace the upper to a 7" one?as long as you don't end up under 26" OAL, federally you should be fine, and CA won't matter either way, since it has a maglock.

I am thinking the ATF is going to reverse this soon.
they might clarify it, but I doubt they will reverse it. Too many other letters in similar scenarios over the last couple years ruled similarly.

Such as the 10" barreled 1919a4 not being an SBR or AOW as long as it was over 26" long. The 14" barreled PG-only Mossberg Cruiser not being an SBS or AOw as long as the OAL was over 26". This would be the third letter to rule that a PG-only gun over 26" long wasnt an AOW

4) Whats stopping me from doing this with MY rifle right now? Wheres this ATF letter, memo or ruling....if you do it with your rifle right now, you create an SBR as soon as you install a <16" barrel on it. it would be a firearm made from a rifle with a <16" barrel.

tenpercentfirearms
04-12-2011, 9:40 PM
So it is still going to need to be single shot exempt for CA right?

So basically this is a way to have an AOW pistol without having to get the $5 and the extra paperwork.

smittty
04-12-2011, 9:50 PM
Barrel length is less than 16" so it's not a rifle so it can't have a butt stock.

Can you buy a stripped lower and dros it as a pistol and build one just like it?

tenpercentfirearms
04-12-2011, 10:08 PM
Can you buy a stripped lower and dros it as a pistol and build one just like it?

No. Pistol lowers are not on the approved list of handguns for sale. The same reason why I don't think you can buy this unless it is a single shot pistol. Unless that is you are law enforcement exempt.

DannyInSoCal
04-12-2011, 10:14 PM
Does it really matter what the ATF says - If the CA DOJ gets a wild hair and decides it's illegal anyway...?

Front grip for $1600...?

I'd rather have two legally configured AR pistols instead...

timdps
04-12-2011, 10:29 PM
So on the AK side, adding a permanently attached 6" fake can to a 20+ inch long Draco allows the addition of a vertical fore grip?

tim

thedrickel
04-12-2011, 10:34 PM
We really need to see a copy of that letter from the ATF . . .

MrPlink
04-12-2011, 10:40 PM
Does it really matter what the ATF says - If the CA DOJ gets a wild hair and decides it's illegal anyway...?



show me the CA law that declares a forward grip illegal on a pistol?
Its a federal issue, not local

ke6guj
04-12-2011, 10:50 PM
show me the CA law that declares a forward grip illegal on a pistol?
Its a federal issue, not local

this CA law does declare that forward grips are illegal on pistols
top

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(B) A second handgrip.

but that only applies to semi-auto pistols that have detachable mags. since this firearm has a maglock, it is exmept from that law.

Reductio
04-12-2011, 11:02 PM
We really need to see a copy of that letter from the ATF . . .

This.

I'm curious as to if it would apply to my 80% home build...

247Nino
04-13-2011, 3:50 AM
We really need to see a copy of that letter from the ATF . . .

right? Let's see it.

>26" OAL Pistol + VFG = OK? we want letter

kel-tec-innovations
04-13-2011, 4:23 AM
:popcorn::popcorn:

tenpercentfirearms
04-13-2011, 5:39 AM
Someone show me a railed AR15 pistol with that style buffer tube that is $1000 or as someone claims $800. That pistol might be MSRPed a bit high, but it isn't some bone stock pistol.

Wicked K5
04-13-2011, 6:24 AM
If I happen to see Jay soon, I'll ask him to chime in on this thread/issue;)

Paper Boy
04-13-2011, 9:25 AM
This.

I'm curious as to if it would apply to my 80% home build...

Was thinking the same thing

tomd1584
04-13-2011, 10:30 AM
Someone show me a railed AR15 pistol with that style buffer tube that is $1000 or as someone claims $800. That pistol might be MSRPed a bit high, but it isn't some bone stock pistol.


Spikes tactical complete pistol is $808 shipped, and the YHM specter rail is $145. Add a $20 magpul VFG and you're GTG. just sayin.... :shrug:

tenpercentfirearms
04-13-2011, 10:42 AM
Spikes tactical complete pistol is $808 shipped, and the YHM specter rail is $145. Add a $20 magpul VFG and you're GTG. just sayin.... :shrug:

That rifle also has some type of metalic flip up sights that would be a minimum of $100 and a upgraded pistol grip that is probably another $20 and the buffer tube might be a bit of an upgrade lets say $10 and the transfer fee on a Spike's is going to run you $50.

That puts you closer to $1200. Still not $1600, but we also know what MSRP is like.

tomd1584
04-13-2011, 10:52 AM
That rifle also has some type of metalic flip up sights that would be a minimum of $100 and a upgraded pistol grip that is probably another $20 and the buffer tube might be a bit of an upgrade lets say $10 and the transfer fee on a Spike's is going to run you $50.

That puts you closer to $1200. Still not $1600, but we also know what MSRP is like.

i know, i know. And i'm glad that more options are becoming available to us. And the fact they're made here in CA.

But add in sales tax and DROS and now that is almost $1800.

problemchild
04-13-2011, 11:18 AM
Kinda like Breasts on a Nun. Serves no purpose.

tenpercentfirearms
04-13-2011, 12:21 PM
But add in sales tax and DROS and now that is almost $1800.

I would wait to see what they really cost before assuming you are are going to pay MSRP for it.

KALIDAWG8996
04-13-2011, 12:59 PM
We really need to see a copy of that letter from the ATF . . .

Agreed...Uhm...Where is the ATF letter stating this??:eek:

CHS
04-13-2011, 1:21 PM
So what does this do that a 11.5 inch AR pistol doesn't? Just the VFG?

It's also over 26" long, which makes it a Title 1 "other" firearm.

CA considers it a pistol (due to barrel length), so the features like the VFG and threaded barrel would make it an AW without a mag lock/bullet button.

It will have to be DROS'ed as a single-shot roster-exempt pistol, but 4473'ed as an other.

CHS
04-13-2011, 1:24 PM
We really need to see a copy of that letter from the ATF . . .

There's the old 1919 "shorty" letter from years ago that says this configuration is fine.

http://www.thompsonmachine.net/1919.htm

Cyc Wid It
04-13-2011, 3:42 PM
Hmmm so for that money I can have a fully loaded Centurion Mk12 upper, a KAC upper + triple tap... I still see AR/AK pistols as solutions looking for a problem, but I suppose they might be fun for about 2 mags.

762.DEFENSE
04-13-2011, 3:51 PM
For the base price of $1600...pass.

MrPlink
04-13-2011, 4:01 PM
I think u guys are missing the point, its not that the item is for sale, its that there is a new approach to the law

pyro3k2
04-13-2011, 4:03 PM
well doesn't this just add a whole new twist to things, I am very interested in how this plays out.

rattlesnake_nm
04-13-2011, 4:05 PM
Well I wanna put a vert grip on my pistol. I am not jumping on this til it is solid. Hopefully more will come out soon.

Reductio
04-13-2011, 4:32 PM
Well I wanna put a vert grip on my pistol. I am not jumping on this til it is solid. Hopefully more will come out soon.

As with all things, be very careful until there's a little more clarity on what's going on. From what I can tell, do NOT do this with a 7.5" upper, or even a 10.5" unless your muzzle device is pinned. The flyer seems to say that it's gtg with an 11.5" one though....

major burnout
04-13-2011, 4:50 PM
You mean, "DROS'd as a singleshot," right? Just making sure you know even AR pistols aren't singleshot, once you get them home.

I mean, if I want to keep my freedom(I use that term loosely), guns and my upstanding citizen card, it is still a single shot. Right?

Reductio
04-13-2011, 4:52 PM
I mean, if I want to keep my freedom(I use that term loosely), guns and my upstanding citizen card, it is still a single shot. Right?

Uh, no. You legally bought it as a single-shot handgun, therefore exempt to the roster. Then, after deciding you didn't want to just shoot one round at a time, you modified the gun by removing the sled, and installing a 10rd fixed magazine. Completely legal.

MasterYong
04-13-2011, 8:02 PM
Uh, tagged?

X-NewYawker
04-13-2011, 8:25 PM
Eleven days late for April's Fool posting.
WHY?
Saw KRISS gun at ADDAX today -- single shot -- one shot magazine?
Why?

ke6guj
04-13-2011, 8:37 PM
Eleven days late for April's Fool posting.
WHY?
why do you think it is an April's Fool posting? The assumption on what the ATF letter actually says to allow for what they are doing falls in line with other ATF letters that allow for short barreled 1919a4's not being an AOW or SBR as long as it is over 26" OAL. In addition, smooth-bore PG-only "shotguns" with 14" barrels are not AOWs or SBS as long as the OAL was at least 26". This firearm, assuming that the letter says what we think it does, falls under the same catagory the above examples do, that it is merely a Title 1 firearm, and not a Title 2 firearm.

Saw KRISS gun at ADDAX today -- single shot -- one shot magazine?
Why?so that it can be sold as roster-exempt. Once you purchase it, nothing says that you can't swap out the zero-round SLED for a 10-round mag.

CHS
04-14-2011, 9:24 AM
FYI, it's not safe to call this a "legal crossover between pistol and rifle" as that implies that you can go back and forth between being a pistol (actually Title 1 other) and a rifle.

Once you have taken this Title 1 other firearm, and added a buttstock and 16" barrel, it's a rifle. If/when you take it back to "other", it becomes a firearm "made from a rifle". If that firearm has a barrel length less than 16" or an OAL less than 26", you've just manufactured and illegal SBR. Can't do that in ANY state.

This gun is an AR-15 "other" that allows you to have a pistol with a vertical grip that the BATFE agrees is not an AOW.

CA considers it a pistol though, so it will have to have a bullet button or other fixed-magazine device installed.

major burnout
04-14-2011, 2:23 PM
Uh, no. You legally bought it as a single-shot handgun, therefore exempt to the roster. Then, after deciding you didn't want to just shoot one round at a time, you modified the gun by removing the sled, and installing a 10rd fixed magazine. Completely legal.

Right on. I was a little hesitant to modify my legal singleshot pistol to semi auto. I guess it was the " magazine in front of the pistol grip" verbiage in the law that got me.

ke6guj
04-14-2011, 2:33 PM
Right on. I was a little hesitant to modify my legal singleshot pistol to semi auto. I guess it was the " magazine in front of the pistol grip" verbiage in the law that got me.but that only applies to semi-automatic pistols that have detachable magazines. With a mag-lock, you don't have a detachable magazine, so that law does not apply.

Rukus
04-14-2011, 5:14 PM
Kudos for pushing boundaries, but my thought is that the whole pricing basically falls flat once the legalities are confirmed. Anybody could basically do this to their existing pistol, no?

Or is the main issue the fact that it would be federally sold as an "Other" and not a pistol? I guess I'm a little confused...

Quiet
04-14-2011, 5:15 PM
Didn't this topic come up several years ago...

AR reciever + 16" barrel + pistol buffer tube + greater than 26" overall length + veritical forward grip + pistol grip + detachable magazine = semi-auto centerfire "other".

Since, it does not meet the definition of a "handgun" or a "rifle", it doesn't fall into any of the assault weapons categories. :willy_nilly:

Reductio
04-14-2011, 5:21 PM
Didn't this topic come up several years ago...

AR reciever + 16" barrel + pistol buffer tube + greater than 26" overall length + veritical forward grip + pistol grip + detachable magazine = semi-auto centerfire "other".

Since, it does not meet the definition of a "handgun" or a "rifle", it doesn't fall into any of the assault weapons categories. :willy_nilly:

I remember this, but this is in the <16" barrel, >26" OAL category. I would be very interested to see what this means for the other senario though. :D

franklinarmory
04-15-2011, 1:51 PM
Okay, I can see that the rest of my day is going to be spent on Calguns. Let me try to explain...

After many weeks of dealing with letters, physical samples, and emails with Mr. Spencer, we finally received a letter from ATF Tech Branch indicating that the XO-26 is not an AOW so long as it is over 26". This opens the door for a whole new type of firearm for not only California, but the rest of the country as well. I still have to contact the DOJ in every other state to determine the legality in each jurisdiction, but in other states, the firearms will not ship on a "Self Extracting - Single Shot Pistol Frame." They will go out on HSC frames if the jurisdiction does not determine that they are pistols.

Some people have opined that this firearm is not very useful. I have to disagree. This configuration is awesome! (...and I'm not just saying that.) I have been testing it out at my ranch. Since Ca law has defined it as a pistol per 12001 PC, it is now legal to have one in the chamber while hunting in a UTV. (DFG rules require long guns to be unloaded in the chamber.) I still have to turn the engine off and exit the rig before firing, but it is way faster than trying to use a rifle. It comes up to the cheek with incredible speed and it is just as stable as a rifle.

To get a rock solid hold, you push with the forward grip, pull with the rear grip, and place the padded buffer on the cheek bone. Don't try to lean your head over or place it on your shoulder because it just makes shooting it uncomfortable. Really, if you look at how most shooters run their AR, they only have the toe of the stock against their shoulder. With the buffer tube indexing on the cheek, it has only moved to the "new position" by only an inch or so. No doubt there will be tactical trainers that have WAY more experience than me that will be able to come up with much better techniques. We'll have to see what people think up.

Law enforcement will like this new addition. While they can get SBRs, CLEOs have to fill out a lot of paperwork and make sure that the LEOs get additional SBR training before they go 10-8. I let a SBCO Deputy try it out and he found that it worked great within 100 yards. It could also have some "active shooter" response advantages as well. He did mention that he'd prefer his carbine if the engagement was over 100 yards, but most police work is 30 feet!

The 7.62x39 options brings out 1200 FPE out of the 11.5" tube versus 950 FPE if it was in 5.56. The extra weight helps knock down critters too. We may make this configuration in 450 BM, 6.8 SPC, or 6.5 Grendel if there is any demand.

I did contact DOJ to let them know that this was approved by ATF. Dana McKinnon actually congratulated us for getting it approved. :eek: We did talk about how this would translate in the California marketplace, and he pointed out 12001 PC defined this firearm as a pistol.

Some fellas have been complaining about price. No one that has seen this product in person has said anything about the cost. Quality products have a cost. Our M4-HTF rifle has been impossible to keep in stock. The moment we build them, they are already allocated. That MSRPs for $1700. There is a lot that goes into each XO-26. The reason the 7.62x39s cost more is that they have the MGI Enhanced Reliability kit. While I don't recommend Wolf ammo, the fact is many people use it for training. They use hard primers and you need the kit to make the 7.62s run with the crap ammo. BTW, we do recommend that people use quality American ammo in all our guns.

We may consider adding a SKU for a variant that would be predicated upon our 10.5" barrel and a longer receiver extension. It is possible we could produce that for around $1200 retail if it didn't have a rail, pop up sights, Young BCG, etc. Keep in mind, we still have to pay 11% excise tax on everything we build. Labor isn't free, and our retailers like to make a buck too. You can't compare a DIY AR to a factory firearm with a warranty. It's kind of like getting an oil change. You know it's cheaper to buy the oil and filter, but Jiffy Lube stays in business because people want the service.

It is important to note that you should not try to build your own AR pistol from a stripped lower. There are some limited exemptions, but you need to start with a complete AR pistol. Get your own legal advice before you convert your existing firearm into an XO-26 configuration.

I'm sure I forgot to answer something herein, but all in all, I'm just glad that we were able to move the 2A rights issue down the playing field a yard or two. :)

stormy_clothing
04-15-2011, 3:02 PM
I didnt try building my own pistol I bought mine like this in a bunch of pieces and assembled them together for 700 dollars

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1924/img0496rs1.jpg

franklinarmory
04-15-2011, 3:38 PM
I didnt try building my own pistol I bought mine like this in a bunch of pieces and assembled them together for 700 dollars

http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/1924/img0496rs1.jpg

Okay, so what's the point??? Is it that you spent less money while endangering your freedom by potentially building an SBR? :confused:

MasterYong
04-15-2011, 3:41 PM
Okay, so what's the point??? Is it that you spent less money while endangering your freedom by potentially building an SBR? :confused:

Wow. Real nice way to communicate with potential customers. I'll remember that if I ever consider doing business with such a ray of sunshine.

oaklander
04-15-2011, 3:52 PM
A MAJOR +100000000 TO FRANKLIN ON THIS.

LONGER POST COMING AFTER I CATCH MY BREATH AND CAN EXPLAIN WHY THIS CONTAINS EXCEPTIONAL WIN

Okay, I can see that the rest of my day is going to be spent on Calguns. Let me try to explain...

After many weeks of dealing with letters, physical samples, and emails with Mr. Spencer, we finally received a letter from ATF Tech Branch indicating that the XO-26 is not an AOW so long as it is over 26". This opens the door for a whole new type of firearm for not only California, but the rest of the country as well. I still have to contact the DOJ in every other state to determine the legality in each jurisdiction, but in other states, the firearms will not ship on a "Self Extracting - Single Shot Pistol Frame." They will go out on HSC frames if the jurisdiction does not determine that they are pistols.

Some people have opined that this firearm is not very useful. I have to disagree. This configuration is awesome! (...and I'm not just saying that.) I have been testing it out at my ranch. Since Ca law has defined it as a pistol per 12001 PC, it is now legal to have one in the chamber while hunting in a UTV. (DFG rules require long guns to be unloaded in the chamber.) I still have to turn the engine off and exit the rig before firing, but it is way faster than trying to use a rifle. It comes up to the cheek with incredible speed and it is just as stable as a rifle.

To get a rock solid hold, you push with the forward grip, pull with the rear grip, and place the padded buffer on the cheek bone. Don't try to lean your head over or place it on your shoulder because it just makes shooting it uncomfortable. Really, if you look at how most shooters run their AR, they only have the toe of the stock against their shoulder. With the buffer tube indexing on the cheek, it has only moved to the "new position" by only an inch or so. No doubt there will be tactical trainers that have WAY more experience than me that will be able to come up with much better techniques. We'll have to see what people think up.

Law enforcement will like this new addition. While they can get SBRs, CLEOs have to fill out a lot of paperwork and make sure that the LEOs get additional SBR training before they go 10-8. I let a SBCO Deputy try it out and he found that it worked great within 100 yards. It could also have some "active shooter" response advantages as well. He did mention that he'd prefer his carbine if the engagement was over 100 yards, but most police work is 30 feet!

The 7.62x39 options brings out 1200 FPE out of the 11.5" tube versus 950 FPE if it was in 5.56. The extra weight helps knock down critters too. We may make this configuration in 450 BM, 6.8 SPC, or 6.5 Grendel if there is any demand.

I did contact DOJ to let them know that this was approved by ATF. Dana McKinnon actually congratulated us for getting it approved. :eek: We did talk about how this would translate in the California marketplace, and he pointed out 12001 PC defined this firearm as a pistol.

Some fellas have been complaining about price. No one that has seen this product in person has said anything about the cost. Quality products have a cost. Our M4-HTF rifle has been impossible to keep in stock. The moment we build them, they are already allocated. That MSRPs for $1700. There is a lot that goes into each XO-26. The reason the 7.62x39s cost more is that they have the MGI Enhanced Reliability kit. While I don't recommend Wolf ammo, the fact is many people use it for training. They use hard primers and you need the kit to make the 7.62s run with the crap ammo. BTW, we do recommend that people use quality American ammo in all our guns.

We may consider adding a SKU for a variant that would be predicated upon our 10.5" barrel and a longer receiver extension. It is possible we could produce that for around $1200 retail if it didn't have a rail, pop up sights, Young BCG, etc. Keep in mind, we still have to pay 11% excise tax on everything we build. Labor isn't free, and our retailers like to make a buck too. You can't compare a DIY AR to a factory firearm with a warranty. It's kind of like getting an oil change. You know it's cheaper to buy the oil and filter, but Jiffy Lube stays in business because people want the service.

It is important to note that you should not try to build your own AR pistol from a stripped lower. There are some limited exemptions, but you need to start with a complete AR pistol. Get your own legal advice before you convert your existing firearm into an XO-26 configuration.

I'm sure I forgot to answer something herein, but all in all, I'm just glad that we were able to move the 2A rights issue down the playing field a yard or two. :)

ghost
04-15-2011, 3:52 PM
You're not paying for a $1600 rifle. You're buying a $1k rifle with a $600 piece of paper that says it's legal.



i built and tax stamped my sbr ar for less than that.

oaklander
04-15-2011, 3:59 PM
OK - now that I have your attention, please let me explain WHY this is so awesome:

1) If you haven't noticed -- FA is right here in NorCal. That is win to begin with, since we LIKE it when gun makers locate in CA. It helps us in so many ways that I can't even explain it in one post.

2) FA weapons are super high quality - I met their owner a few weeks ago at a gun rights event, and got to handle his weapon(s) (OK, I know that sounds funny). . . :) But the point is - these are nice guns - well-made by shooters just like you and me. Not some corporate conglomerate.

3) FA fully supports our movement here in CA, and interacts with the very people who are fighting for your rights.

4) This firearm is evidence of a new type of thinking, in which smart manufacturers seek new solutions to existing legal problems.

5) This firearm fulfills a need that has not been fulfilled before. Sometimes you need something that kind of handles like a pistol - but also handles like a rifle.

NOW - if you guys think I am a shill for FA - think about this:

This firearm will cost me money, even if I don't buy one - because some of you won't feel the need to get a trust to get an AOW anymore. So I have absolutely NO pecuniary reason to say any of what I just said.

At this point, I'm figuring out how *I* can get some extra cash and DROS one of these.

chiburi
04-15-2011, 4:10 PM
diddo, I'll add it to my FA HSC-15. I think I need a bigger safe :)

franklinarmory
04-15-2011, 4:12 PM
Wow. Real nice way to communicate with potential customers. I'll remember that if I ever consider doing business with such a ray of sunshine.

Look at it from the flip side.... Stormy Clothing was sticking his finger in our eye by pointing out that he only paid $700 when he built his firearm. Legal aspects aside, these two firearms are not comparably equipped. So really, why was the post relevant???

Why are you upset? Lemme' guess... You have a $699 SBR special in your closet too? :D We're not about making online enemies, but come on, aren't you being e a little thin skinned?

franklinarmory
04-15-2011, 4:35 PM
3) FA fully supports our movement here in CA, and interacts with the very people who are fighting for your rights.

4) This firearm is evidence of a new type of thinking, in which smart manufacturers seek new solutions to existing legal problems.

5) This firearm fulfills a need that has not been fulfilled before. Sometimes you need something that kind of handles like a pistol - but also handles like a rifle.


Thanks Oaklander. That is really what we're trying to do. We're just happy we were able to ask the right questions and (somehow) got the right answers!

BTW, I couldn't even begin to think what it would cost to have an attorney charge us on an hourly basis to "Shill" for FA.

oaklander
04-15-2011, 4:45 PM
LOL - *I* can't even afford my hourly rate!!!!

:D

BTW, I couldn't even begin to think what it would cost to have an attorney charge us on an hourly basis to "Shill" for FA.

Eat Dirt
04-15-2011, 4:59 PM
You're not paying for a $1600 rifle. You're buying a $1k rifle with a $600 piece of paper that says it's legal.

You hit the nail on the head with that one Buddy.......

Nice . But too many Pesos for my blood

MasterYong
04-15-2011, 5:46 PM
Okay, so what's the point??? Is it that you spent less money while endangering your freedom by potentially building an SBR? :confused:

Wow. Real nice way to communicate with potential customers. I'll remember that if I ever consider doing business with such a ray of sunshine.

oaklander
04-15-2011, 6:10 PM
Guys, please - FA is trying to help us here. There is no argument that this is a cheap gun. I remember my first OLL - it was not cheap either, and was "hella" hard to build - since I had to use a table-top 01 FFL to do the transfer (B&M gun shops rarely even touched them at first). . .

Please don't be so blasť that you now view black guns as a commodity like potatoes. We are still in the "start-up" phase of restoring our rights in CA.

SO - even if something cool is expensive - it's still cool - and is the result of hard work.

ALSO - I've met "FA" - he's a real nice guy - but he doesn't post much here since he's super busy making guns for us. Please cut him some slack.

Again, I have no relationship with FA - other than playing with his weapons at a recent event and talking to him for a bit - but what he is doing falls into the category of "good thing." Let's show some support for him and people like him. . .

I wish more of you would step up to the plate and get your 07's and do the same thing. Again, we are all on the same team here. I don't want Calguns to turn into something akin to an anonymous "Wal*Mart" of conversations. I'd like to see it continue to be close and friendly, more like a boutique store.

Wait - that was a bad analogy - but you guys know what I am saying!!!! Let's just support each other, and quit dumping on people (unless they deserve it - and FA does not deserve it).

Grumpyoldretiredcop
04-15-2011, 6:25 PM
Kudos to FA for thinking outside the box and being willing to make that thought into reality. One "attaboy" for thinking about it and another for actually doing it.

-1, however, for the snippy "SBR Special" remarks.

So far, that leaves FA 1 "attaboy" ahead in my book. Before you post, "And why should your book matter to me?", consider that I am a potential customer. Tick me off enough and I'll find someone else to spend my money with. I'll be watching this thread with interest as I really do like the XO-26 configuration and hope it is a success.

Stephen83
04-15-2011, 6:27 PM
Guys, please - FA is trying to help us here. There is no argument that this is a cheap gun. I remember my first OLL - it was not cheap either, and was "hella" hard to build - since I had to use a table-top 01 FFL to do the transfer (B&M gun shops rarely even touched them at first). . .

Please don't be so blasť that you now view black guns as a commodity like potatoes. We are still in the "start-up" phase of restoring our rights in CA.

SO - even if something cool is expensive - it's still cool - and is the result of hard work.

ALSO - I've met "FA" - he's a real nice guy - but he doesn't post much here since he's super busy making guns for us. Please cut him some slack.

Again, I have no relationship with FA - other than playing with his weapons at a recent event and talking to him for a bit - but what he is doing falls into the category of "good thing." Let's show some support for him and people like him. . .

I wish more of you would step up to the plate and get your 07's and do the same thing. Again, we are all on the same team here. I don't want Calguns to turn into something akin to an anonymous "Wal*Mart" of conversations. I'd like to see it continue to be close and friendly, more like a boutique store.

Wait - that was a bad analogy - but you guys know what I am saying!!!! Let's just support each other, and quit dumping on people (unless they deserve it - and FA does not deserve it).

+1

I'm beginning to look in to this since I'm looking for a short tacticool 7.62. This is a nice alternative.

-noob out 8')

franklinarmory
04-15-2011, 6:35 PM
Hey fellas.... sorry for being snippy. (seriously)

I had a reputable ATF agent point this out to me a while back, so I thought I would make the point that there can be serious complications involved in using a lower DROSd as a rifle for a pistol build.

ke6guj
04-15-2011, 6:54 PM
will a copy of the letter be available soon?

franklinarmory
04-15-2011, 7:00 PM
Yes we will post it.

ke6guj
04-15-2011, 7:04 PM
cool, thanks.

rattlesnake_nm
04-15-2011, 8:04 PM
It is important to note that you should not try to build your own AR pistol from a stripped lower. There are some limited exemptions, but you need to start with a complete AR pistol. Get your own legal advice before you convert your existing firearm into an XO-26 configuration.

I'm sure I forgot to answer something herein, but all in all, I'm just glad that we were able to move the 2A rights issue down the playing field a yard or two. :)

How about someone in another state who passed a brady ncis for the stripped lower? What barrel length is approved with the vert grip?

CHS
04-15-2011, 8:35 PM
How about someone in another state who passed a brady ncis for the stripped lower?


Then it's just a Title 1 other, and can be built into an AR pistol, or this configuration.


What barrel length is approved with the vert grip?

Barrel length doesn't mean anything. It's OAL that counts and must be at least 26".

ElvenSoul
04-15-2011, 8:50 PM
How about a performance video? Let's see it in action.

xibunkrlilkidsx
04-15-2011, 9:15 PM
cool rifle. what are specs. im just wondering if it would be worth it though.

what is keeping me from bringing in a pistol lower and attaching a 11" barrel on it myself, with just buffer tube, and than just using a handstop instead of a grip? Or a AFG on it? Using either method i could probably acheive a similar feel like this says it does. From the sound of it the big thing that makes it useful is not having to go through the singleshot stuff.


as for the price, you pay the price for quality and it being unique. good rifles are never cheap, LWRC, Noveske, DD, Larue, LMT and so on all high quality rifles that carry the price.

ke6guj
04-15-2011, 9:19 PM
cool rifle. what are specs. im just wondering if it would be worth it though.

what is keeping me from bringing in a pistol lower and attaching a 11" barrel on it myself, with just buffer tube, and than just using a handstop instead of a grip? Or a AFG on it?well, you can't DROS a lower as a pistol, unless it is already configured as a dimensionally-compliante single-shot pistol.


Using either method i could probably acheive a similar feel like this says it does. From the sound of it the big thing that makes it useful is not having to go through the singleshot stuff.
.its still a pistol in CA, so you have to go through the singleshot stuff.

RLTW
04-16-2011, 12:09 AM
What gets me is that my XD and 1911 dont have mag locks and they are pistols..

Why are AR pistols, and Dracos (AK) required to have mag locks?

The reason I ask this is due to the fact that they are classified as pistols when they enter this state. Regardless of the 1 shot sled when you pick it up from gun jail, and what you do with it once you get it home.

And not to be a Troll... but seriously $1600 just to have a vfg... get real thats just plain BS...

rattlesnake_nm
04-16-2011, 5:16 AM
Then it's just a Title 1 other, and can be built into an AR pistol, or this configuration.



Barrel length doesn't mean anything. It's OAL that counts and must be at least 26".

Shall I wait for the letter to be available, and clear? I don't wanna break the law. I have a 10.5 upper and a lower with rra tube. I would love a vert grip, but don't want to get in trouble.

Ed_Hazard
04-16-2011, 5:51 AM
What gets me is that my XD and 1911 dont have mag locks and they are pistols..

Why are AR pistols, and Dracos (AK) required to have mag locks?

Magazine loads outside the PG.

Off roster, needed for single shot exemption

The reason I ask this is due to the fact that they are classified as pistols when they enter this state. Regardless of the 1 shot sled when you pick it up from gun jail, and what you do with it once you get it home.


And not to be a Troll... but seriously $1600 just to have a vfg... get real thats just plain BS...

Well you failed on that last part buddy.:thumbsup:

n2k
04-16-2011, 5:53 AM
What gets me is that my XD and 1911 dont have mag locks and they are pistols..

Why are AR pistols, and Dracos (AK) required to have mag locks?

The reason I ask this is due to the fact that they are classified as pistols when they enter this state. Regardless of the 1 shot sled when you pick it up from gun jail, and what you do with it once you get it home.

And not to be a Troll... but seriously $1600 just to have a vfg... get real thats just plain BS...

Restrictions on semiautomatic handguns
California also classifies semiautomatic handguns with certain features as "assault weapons"
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor,forward handgrip, or silencer.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer
to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
Unlike rifles, there is no requirement for pistols to be centerfire, only semiautomatic....

rattlesnake_nm
04-16-2011, 6:12 AM
Well I just ordered a afg2. I am not going to risk it. If stuff changes I will get a vert. I do not want to be the test subject.

NotEnoughGuns
04-16-2011, 6:48 AM
Thank you FA for fighting the good fight for all of us.
You to Oaklander.

franklinarmory
04-16-2011, 8:02 AM
How about someone in another state who passed a brady ncis for the stripped lower? What barrel length is approved with the vert grip?
Residents in other states will likely have a lot more fun with this. Unless their state law precludes it, my understanding is that the AR lower they purchase is always 4473d as an "other." Unless the lower was some paper trail showing that it was a "rifle," or unless it was actually built out as a rifle, then out of state residents will likely be able to build their own XO-26 or similar configuration.

As far as barrel length goes, the ATF didn't stipulate, but they did say the OAL must be 26 inches or more. I imagine that a lot of different combinations will come of this.

franklinarmory
04-16-2011, 8:04 AM
How about a performance video? Let's see it in action.I'll try to get that done today, and get it posted tomorrow.

Rekrab
04-16-2011, 8:05 AM
Does that mean you could go with a shorter barrel and an A2 buffer tube(modified to be unable to receive a stock of course)?

rattlesnake_nm
04-16-2011, 8:07 AM
Residents in other states will likely have a lot more fun with this. Unless their state law precludes it, my understanding is that the AR lower they purchase is always 4473d as an "other." Unless the lower was some paper trail showing that it was a "rifle," or unless it was actually built out as a rifle, then out of state residents will likely be able to build their own XO-26 or similar configuration.

As far as barrel length goes, the ATF didn't stipulate, but they did say the OAL must be 26 inches or more. I imagine that a lot of different combinations will come of this.

Thank You sir. I started with a stripped lower marked pistol only. I wonder if pistol only would screw it up for me, with the x-26 config considered as "other" and not pistol.

frigginchi
04-16-2011, 8:32 AM
Reminds me of an updated Tommy gun. :)

http://members.cox.net/lvrbgun/tgunpistol.jpg

franklinarmory
04-16-2011, 8:58 AM
And not to be a Troll... but seriously $1600 just to have a vfg... get real thats just plain BS...

Honestly our market is not the bottom of the barrel. If we only focused on trying to build the cheapest gun we could, we would be beat everytime by the large publicly traded companies. Instead, we focus on quality and innovation. Try one of our rifle or pistol triggers, and look at the fit and finish. Our cheapest rifle might retail $40 more than others, but there is a difference in quality.

Based on the overwhelming comments in this thread, I think we will try to produce a stripped down version of the same configuration. I encourage Calgunners to send me a PM with what cost effective ideas that they would like to see. Maybe we could take our 10.5" SE-SSP and add a vertical grip to the carbine handguard?

franklinarmory
04-16-2011, 9:02 AM
Reminds me of an updated Tommy gun. :)

http://members.cox.net/lvrbgun/tgunpistol.jpg

DING, DING, DING! You just nailed it. That was what I argued to the ATF! I reasoned that, if the 1927A5 was legal, why shouldn't our SE-SSP be legal with a forward grip. Obviously he agreed!

When you see the letter, you'll find that Mr. Spencer is really a patriot. He wrote it in such a way that really allowed us to expand the 2A rights.

franklinarmory
04-16-2011, 9:08 AM
Thank You sir. I started with a stripped lower marked pistol only. I wonder if pistol only would screw it up for me, with the x-26 config considered as "other" and not pistol.

I'm not an attorney, but I don't see why it would be a problem. Both "Other" and "Pistol" require the purchaser to be 21. We are marketing the XO as a pistol as did Thompson with the 1927A5. So, I think the precedence has been set.

franklinarmory
04-16-2011, 9:10 AM
Does that mean you could go with a shorter barrel and an A2 buffer tube(modified to be unable to receive a stock of course)?

Yes. :D

My deputy friend suggested that as well.

oaklander
04-16-2011, 9:54 AM
Folks - even though FA INAL (is not a lawyer), I know for a fact that he's spent a lot of time networking with people (including "him") who have a clear understanding on the issues. . .

I strongly discourage anyone else from doing anything except more-or-less exactly replicating this configuration (with ATF letter in hand!)

There's all sorts of wierd interplays between fed/state law on this stuff - and local LE is not going to know all of this when they look at your guns.

SO - unless you can totally explain things AND have a nice letter - don't risk it!!!

franklinarmory
04-18-2011, 11:10 AM
Here's a video of the XO-26 in action....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzpFxiUSd8c