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View Full Version : PPT without FFL for rimfire rifle more than 50 years old legal?


MasterYong
04-12-2011, 3:39 PM
I did a search and I'm 99% sure I'm kosher on this, but I wanted to ask to be sure anyways (I even checked the CalGuns wiki, so thanks Librarian, but I've never done a PPT gun purchase without an FFL so I wanted to ask).

So a guy wants to sell me an old single-shot rimfire Remington 514. I've heard good things, and the price is shockingly low. He doesn't know how old the rifle is, but I understand there will be a date code on the barrel that I can look up on Remington's site to see what year it was made.

If it was made prior to 1961 I'm good to go with a F2F, PPT, sans FFL, yes? Cash and carry? Any extra requirements I've missed?

If it's less than 50 years old I know for sure that I have to go through an FFL, as I always would with other firearms.

Thanks in advance for putting up with my noob-ish question, especially since I should know this stuff. I just get nervous when trying "new things" with guns in CA since the laws are so convoluted.

Thanks!

rromeo
04-12-2011, 3:54 PM
Long guns 50 years and older are cash and carry.

MasterYong
04-12-2011, 3:55 PM
Thanks!

...now if only I could find that darned Remington page that allegedly existed up until about a year ago that tells me how to translate the barrel codes to be sure it's more than 50 years old. Not on Remington's site anymore...

ke6guj
04-12-2011, 3:59 PM
12078(t)(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.



I wouldn't suggest using a date code on the barrel. Barrels can be swapped. I'd suggest using the serial number to confirm a born-on date.

C&Rtrader
04-12-2011, 4:01 PM
yes. you can do that as a cash n carry. enjoy!

TRICKSTER
04-12-2011, 4:06 PM
Thanks!

...now if only I could find that darned Remington page that allegedly existed up until about a year ago that tells me how to translate the barrel codes to be sure it's more than 50 years old. Not on Remington's site anymore...

Is this it?
http://www.remingtonsociety.com/questions/BLACKPOWDERX.htm

MasterYong
04-12-2011, 4:06 PM
Thankee kindly gentlemen. I also managed to find a chart for the date codes in the meantime through rimfirecentral.

ETA:

So, it turns out that only the first letter and last number are legible on the barrel, the others have rubbed off (shallow roll marks I guess).

This guy still wants to do a PPT, cash and carry. Without a serial number or being able to read the date code I'm not wholly comfortable with this, though the date codes aren't COMPLETELY reliable anyway because the barrel could have been swapped over the years (unlikely).

If there's no serial number, can it even go through the PPT process? I would assume that a serial is used in the PPT process at an FFL?

This guy is a nice guy, just not that savvy. He told me his grandpa told him the gun was made in the 1850s. I told him, uh, NO. Production began in 1948 LOL, and .22lr didn't exist in 1850.

MasterYong
04-12-2011, 4:13 PM
12078(t)(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.



I wouldn't suggest using a date code on the barrel. Barrels can be swapped. I'd suggest using the serial number to confirm a born-on date.

No serial number at all. So, it's at least pre-1968, allegedly.

Thoughts? You always seem to know your stuff.

I guess if there's no serial it can't be proven either way, huh?

ETA: NVM fellas the guy just texted me that he was able to make out the other two letters: TT. Made in 1948. EEEHXCELLENT *Mr Burns fingers* first-year run!

ke6guj
04-12-2011, 4:32 PM
yes, it can still be PPTs. It just gets processed as a "no serial number" gun.

I don't think it would do it as a paperless transfer unless I could use something to positively date it as over 50 years old. In 8 years, one could probably assume that any factory NSN was made pre-68 and be ok to cash-and-carry.

MasterYong
04-12-2011, 6:16 PM
yes, it can still be PPTs. It just gets processed as a "no serial number" gun.

I don't think it would do it as a paperless transfer unless I could use something to positively date it as over 50 years old. In 8 years, one could probably assume that any factory NSN was made pre-68 and be ok to cash-and-carry.

Well now you've got me all paranoid about it. :)

No sn, and the barrel says it was made in 1948. If there is no other way to tell when it was made, how could law enforcement?

i.e. isn't this a "burden of proof is on the state" situation? It seems very, very unlikely the barrel was replaced with another barrel that's more than 50 years old, if the receiver was made in say 1965.

Hrm.

ke6guj
04-12-2011, 6:22 PM
as I thought about it more, and the barel code list also mentioned, the odds that a rifle barrel was swapped are pretty rare, so you would probably be ok. Its not the same with shotguns, those barrels are easily swapped and I did see first hand where a <50-year old shotgun was passed off as being more than 50-years old, per the barrel code. but per the serial number, it was 1970's vintage IIRC.

Connor P Price
04-12-2011, 6:30 PM
It seems pretty unlikely that the barrel would have been swapped with one 13 years older than the gun itself. Possible, but not likely.

Flintlock Tom
04-13-2011, 12:56 PM
Don't over think this. You did your due diligence by researching the barrel codes. As far as you can ascertain, in good faith, the rifle is over 50 years old. Go for it and don't lose any sleep.

CSACANNONEER
04-13-2011, 1:04 PM
So, how much??? When you get it post pics of it.

MasterYong
04-13-2011, 2:56 PM
So, how much??? When you get it post pics of it.

I was able to talk him down from $80 to $60. :D

Needs a little cleaning up (little rust on the barrel) but otherwise it looks real good, bolt is smooth and doesn't have any play, inside of the barrel looks good (though I'm not expert).

Gonna clean it up, maybe put some more bluing on it if I accidentally take any off removing the rust, and see how it shoots.

I figured, for $60 it's not much of a gamble. I'm pretty sure I came out on top though, as I've seen these for sale for more than twice what I paid.

It's clearly a real well made rifle though, has a nice heavy barrel for being a single-shot .22 (much heavier than my gf's Marlin single-shot .22). They don't really make 'em like this anymore I don't think, it has that "old school quality" feel to it that is common in old hand tools and such.

I'll post pics and more in the rimfire section when I get the chance, and if I remember I'll link to it here.