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View Full Version : My Cali FFL dealer changed the rules!!


diego-ted
04-12-2011, 2:33 PM
Since the last time I saw him. I went to DROS my new Tikka rifle and to my dismay, my dealer said he could not began the process until I had proof the rifle had been shipped.

2nd. He said he must charge Cali tax for all out of state internet transactions! There goes the good internet deals.

Has anyone else heard of these changes?

Diego

luckystrike
04-12-2011, 2:39 PM
what? was the rifle in a brown box delivered to his shop by ups not proof enough?

tujungatoes
04-12-2011, 2:41 PM
Since the last time I saw him. I went to DROS my new Tikka rifle and to my dismay, my dealer said he could not began the process until I had proof the rifle had been shipped.

2nd. He said he must charge Cali tax for all out of state internet transactions! There goes the good internet deals.

Has anyone else heard of these changes?

Diego

1. If he doesn't have at least an invoice with a serial number then he can't very well start paper work. Many ffl's wont start paperwork until they have the firearm in their possession.

2. Uncle Sam always gets his cut.

Ripon83
04-12-2011, 2:43 PM
I've been told by two FFL's they can't start DROS with out the gun in hand. I was told they could get in trouble for it if they did;

As for the sales tax the BOE is coming down on the FFL's and will charge them the sales tax if you don't report it and pay it. I doubt the DROS fee they charge is going to cover that so most of them will be charging sales tax from now on. If you find one that doesn't....don't say anything and buy an extra couple of magazines or boxes of ammo to thank them quietly. I still think they'll get themselves in trouble.

THT
04-12-2011, 2:44 PM
With regard to collecting sales tax, your FFL is correct. See here for more: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=366781

rojocorsa
04-12-2011, 2:45 PM
FFLs all charge tax...

locosway
04-12-2011, 4:59 PM
Since there is no reg on long guns, why can't they start the DROS right away?

MrPlink
04-12-2011, 5:06 PM
I find charging tax on an item purchased out of state to be complete B.S. and illegal.

Somebody should challenge this

Ripon83
04-12-2011, 5:09 PM
Well I tried once. It was not on a firearm but on a different product. My company required us to order uniforms from an out of state dealer. I ordered about $500 in uniforms over a few years and kept them in my "inventory." I get a letter from BOE demanding sales tax payments on the orders. I refused and said they were still for sale in my inventory. They threatened to pull my resellers permit if I didn't pay....I'd have been out of business to fight it. They are as anti business and hateful a group of people as I've ever met.


I find charging tax on an item purchased out of state to be complete B.S. and illegal.

Somebody should challenge this

bloodhawke83
04-12-2011, 7:46 PM
FFLs all charge tax...

they do? :eek:

G60
04-12-2011, 7:55 PM
FFLs all charge tax...

Some of them don't. Either if you can prove you already paid CA sales tax on the gun, or they just haven't been caught/don't know the law yet.

seronian
04-12-2011, 8:02 PM
Since there is no reg on long guns, why can't they start the DROS right away?

my FFL just did this for me. i change my mind on a rifle twice and they kept on switching it i was told on long guns its ok they send out the papers the day i pick it up. but for handguns they do it on the spot. unless something new came up.

morfeeis
04-12-2011, 10:00 PM
Some of them don't. Either if you can prove you already paid CA sales tax on the gun, or they just haven't been caught/don't know the law yet.
"The law" you sure about that one? as limited as my education and knowledge is of state tax laws i do know the FFL is under no legal, obligation to collect state sales tax, paying sales tax on an out of state sale is the duty of the buyer. Now here is what i do know a broke state saw all these items being sold to CA residents and just put the pinch on them to get their cut, i mean come on when was the last time USPS was forced to collect taxes on something you bought on ebay........

Just like our gun laws i call bull**** till i see proof.

GUNNTZ
04-12-2011, 10:17 PM
The transaction was done between the buyer(us) and the out of state vendor. The BS the state is trying to push is just crap and the shops that play along are stupid. If your shop is collecting tax, I would suspect pocket stuffing...find another shop to do the transfer. Another broke state maneuver to F'over the populous.

llamatrnr
04-12-2011, 10:20 PM
they do? :eek:

Yup! :taz:

DannyInSoCal
04-12-2011, 10:31 PM
A buddy of mine got a tax bill for almost $1200 - After buying cigars from Thompsons over the course of a few years.

So it's not just limited to FFLs...

MrPlink
04-12-2011, 10:34 PM
Well I tried once. It was not on a firearm but on a different product. My company required us to order uniforms from an out of state dealer. I ordered about $500 in uniforms over a few years and kept them in my "inventory." I get a letter from BOE demanding sales tax payments on the orders. I refused and said they were still for sale in my inventory. They threatened to pull my resellers permit if I didn't pay....I'd have been out of business to fight it. They are as anti business and hateful a group of people as I've ever met.

tell them you sold them all at a incredible loss because of poor business decision you made.
Theres nothing illegal about being a bad businessman ;)

salazar44
04-12-2011, 11:05 PM
thats like them trying to charge sales tax on a PPT??

1811
04-13-2011, 4:22 AM
Which FFL are you referring to OP...

TURNKEY13
04-13-2011, 4:38 AM
Yes they are supposed to collect tax on out of state purchases.. sooo.. Something to think about.. When FFL dude asks how much you paid for your gun.. pick an amount you're happy with... maybe $100. :devil2: That way FFL dude can put an amount on the form... so state is happy for collecting $8-$10 in tax.. FFL happy cuz he won’t get hassled by the man... and you’re happy cuz you just gave the man the finger!!! Only way state will know how much you really paid for it is to contact the seller… Just a guess, but that aint gunna happen.

My two cents..

PS.. same goes for vehicles bought out of state.. anything with less then 7500 miles on odometer regardless of vehicle year Ca. DMV considers new and will charge sales tax on it. total BS!!!!!

tenpercentfirearms
04-13-2011, 5:46 AM
Since the last time I saw him. I went to DROS my new Tikka rifle and to my dismay, my dealer said he could not began the process until I had proof the rifle had been shipped.That is solely a dealer policy. The CA DOJ discourages us from starting guns until they are present and will even outright tell us we can't do it. However, there is nothing that prohibits it and it is up to the individual dealer. Some dealers don't like to buck the system and other dealers do. I wouldn't give your dealer a hard time over it, but if it does bother you that much, you can always let the dealer know you are going to find another dealer over it.

"The law" you sure about that one? as limited as my education and knowledge is of state tax laws i do know the FFL is under no legal, obligation to collect state sales tax, paying sales tax on an out of state sale is the duty of the buyer. Now here is what i do know a broke state saw all these items being sold to CA residents and just put the pinch on them to get their cut, i mean come on when was the last time USPS was forced to collect taxes on something you bought on ebay........

Just like our gun laws i call bull**** till i see proof.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=366781

The transaction was done between the buyer(us) and the out of state vendor. The BS the state is trying to push is just crap and the shops that play along are stupid. If your shop is collecting tax, I would suspect pocket stuffing...find another shop to do the transfer. Another broke state maneuver to F'over the populous.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion I suppose. I guess you wouldn't mind taking on the BOE and tell them it is BS when they seize your retail permit and suddenly you can't sell any product anymore. I guess you wouldn't mind fighting this with your own hard earned money just so your customer has the ability not to properly claim their out of state purchases on their use tax portion of their California income tax return.

Shops who take on the liability of their customer's sales tax are definitely stupid. They must also be crooks too because despite the ease of an audit to prove they are pocketing this money, they must be pocketing it too.

Someone around here is stupid, but I don't think it is the gun shops that collect sales tax as instructed to do so by the BOE. For those of you who aren't stupid, be sure to read this thread. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=366781


I find charging tax on an item purchased out of state to be complete B.S. and illegal.

Somebody should challenge thisLead by example. Why wait for someone to challenge it when you can do it yourself?

You see the funny thing is what is the point in challenging it? Once you prove that the FFL is not the retailer (even though the tax code makes a pretty good case we are), you still have well established tax code that specifies you must pay use tax on your out of state purchase at the end of the year on your income tax return.

Clearly the only reason people get so upset about this sales tax issue is they want to avoid reporting that use tax at the end of the year and not pay their taxes. People want to cheat on their taxes.

And they accuse dealers of being dishonest?

eville
04-13-2011, 6:05 AM
no tax on a gift...

a1c
04-13-2011, 8:01 AM
I find charging tax on an item purchased out of state to be complete B.S. and illegal.

Somebody should challenge this

It's actually completely legal. Internet commerce changed the rules, but legislators have come down hard on some online retailers, and many of them (Amazon, the small guys and a few big ones excepted) will collect sales tax no matter where they ship now.

You are also supposed to report those purchases and pay sales taxes on them. You will likely not get in trouble, but if you buy a lot of big ticket items from online retailers based out-of-state and are not charged a sales tax, you could get in trouble and have the Tax Board come after you for not reporting and paying it. I know people it happened to.

bigguy901
04-13-2011, 8:15 AM
The whole thing on tax collection is a grey area. Most out of state FFL's do not enclose a receipt in the shipment. Therefore, the gun coming into the store could be very well a PPT with potentially no money exchanged. Just because it came from out of state FFL does not mean the out of state FFL sold the gun. Only the FFL service was used for shipping to CA FFL. I only hope that some of our FFL's in CA are being honest in forwarding the collected taxes to BOE..... I think it all depends on how the "declarations" are done at time of shipping and receipt. I would find another FFL that does not take the whole collecting tax issue so seriously. There are plenty in that I have talked to that do not collect taxes, simply because they have no proof on the nature of the transaction. They said that they are only providing the FFL services, and taxes are between the seller and the buyer.

diego-ted
04-13-2011, 8:24 AM
Yes they are supposed to collect tax on out of state purchases.. sooo.. Something to think about.. When FFL dude asks how much you paid for your gun.. pick an amount you're happy with... maybe $100. :devil2: That way FFL dude can put an amount on the form... so state is happy for collecting $8-$10 in tax.. FFL happy cuz he won’t get hassled by the man... and you’re happy cuz you just gave the man the finger!!! Only way state will know how much you really paid for it is to contact the seller… Just a guess, but that aint gunna happen.

My two cents..

PS.. same goes for vehicles bought out of state.. anything with less then 7500 miles on odometer regardless of vehicle year Ca. DMV considers new and will charge sales tax on it. total BS!!!!!

Gussler has a sign that states "if you do not have a receipt or one is not included in the shipment, value will be determined by a search of fair market value and you will be taxed this amount.


diego

tenpercentfirearms
04-13-2011, 8:47 AM
The whole thing on tax collection is a grey area. Most out of state FFL's do not enclose a receipt in the shipment. Therefore, the gun coming into the store could be very well a PPT with potentially no money exchanged. Just because it came from out of state FFL does not mean the out of state FFL sold the gun. Quite true. If the firearm includes a declaration from a private individual stating they sold it to the receiver, I don't have to collect sales tax.

Only the FFL service was used for shipping to CA FFL.Why incur the cost of having an FFL send your gun to a FFL in California? That doesn't make any sense unless you more money than time I suppose. Just have the private party send it direct which also helps cooberate your story that it is an occassional sale from a private party instead of having to have the sender include a declaration that the sending FFL was used only as an uncessary service.

I only hope that some of our FFL's in CA are being honest in forwarding the collected taxes to BOE..... Who else do you question about this? Do you wonder if Costco is really submitting the sales tax they collect?

If I give you a receipt that shows I collected sales tax, why would I then turn around and go back and change my records to remove the tax? That would be so simple to catch in an audit it isn't even funny. Also anyone who knows modern point of sale systems knows that everything is trackable. You can't just cancel a sale and wipe it from existence. It will show the original transaction and the second transaction where you removed the sales tax.

Not only is this illegal, it is highly stupid because it is going to cost a lot of money when you get caught. Why not just accuse gun dealers of selling full autos, silencers, assault weapons, and rocket launchers. It is all just as illegal.

Again, show me one case where a gun shop was actually busted for collecting sales tax and not submitting it to the BOE. Everyone talks about it like it happens all the time, but there is no evidence anyone would really be this stupid.

I would find another FFL that does not take the whole collecting tax issue so seriously. There are plenty in that I have talked to that do not collect taxes, simply because they have no proof on the nature of the transaction. They said that they are only providing the FFL services, and taxes are between the seller and the buyer.

I fully encourage people to do this too. If you can find an FFL that is willing to assume your sales tax liability, go for it. Clearly the only reason a customer would seek to do this is they do not plan on paying their use tax at the end of the year. They want to cheat the state of their owed taxes and if the opinions and codes we have posted from the BOE turn out to hold up in court, the FFL would solely be on the hook for not collecting the sales tax for the retail sale.

All of the risk here is on the FFL so the customer can cheat on their taxes. If you can find an FFL that doesn't mind helping you do this, please do. They are definitely out there.

Just please stop giving us the lame excuse that you think an FFL is just holding onto the tax. It is insulting. Clearly there is a case being made by the BOE that the transfer dealer is the retailer in the final sale. It makes zero business sense to risk thousands upon thousands of dollars of owed sales tax on all of your retail transfers to enable your customer to be able to cheat their use tax at the end of the year.

If an FFL is audited and the BOE claims the FFL owes sales tax, my $50 transfer fee goes away for every firearm I transferred over about $600. That is assuming I don't have to pay penalties and interest.

Again, I could fight it, but that is going to cost a lot of money, further eating into my $50 transfer fees. And in the end if I am right, what have I protected? Your ability not to be able to claim it on your use tax form at the end of the year?

If people are being honest and doing what is required by the tax code, then they wouldn't mind an FFL collecting the sales tax on their out of state retail transfers so they wouldn't have to hassle with it on their use tax income tax return at the end of the year. The FFL is actually reducing your paper tracking and tax efforts.

This is not a dig on those of you who want to try and cheat the tax system. I don't want to judge you and you are free to do what you want. However, do not accuse me of being dishonest when I am not willing to assume your risk for you. That is the apex of hypocrisy.

If you can find a dealer who doesn't collect the sales tax on a retail sale, go for it. Again they are out there. Just don't slander my name because I won't break what I see as pretty clear tax code because of it.

ElvenSoul
04-13-2011, 8:52 AM
It's time for a Internet Tea Party...now the Feds want to add a tax on all online purchases too.

dfletcher
04-13-2011, 8:55 AM
I suspect one of the purposes of CFLC is that every time we buy we are in effect bird dogging for the state - we help them gather info and build a list, they then go to the gun stores and enforce tax law, insurance requirements, licensing, etc. The state can now go to a gun store with CFLC info list in hand and in a very efficient manner say"show me these transactions" and pick apart the FFL regarding compliance with CA law.