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timbo399
04-10-2011, 10:17 AM
Heres's my dilemna/question: I recently bought a Mossberg 590A1 20" barrel for HD but realized quickly that thing is heavy!, especially loaded with 9 shells. So until I hit the gym and train more with the platform, I will use my AR 16" as HD rifle. Have my Beretta 92fs as bedstand gun but for rifle I would like, for now at least , to go with my AR since I have taken carbine classes with it and put 1000's of flawless rounds through it which gives me confidence. And, it is a DD with the Light Weight pencil barrel and even with Eotech the whole thing weighs less than 7 lbs, seems as light as a feather in my hands which I like in case I have to hold it up to someone for a length of time until police arrive, etc. The weight thing still doesn't make total sense because the Mossberg 590 is listed as around 7 1/2 lbs so not sure why it seems so much heavier. But back to my point, I have 75 gr Hornady TAP for HD rounds and have plotted out all possible angles in my place and there is zero threat of overpenetration. All my walls are brick (double layered) and heavy cement floor and live alone.
For those of you who use AR for HD, do you leave a round in the chamber with hammer back and safety on for long periods of time? Although still take the gun to the range to practice obviously, I could see times of 3-4 months going by where waiting with one in chamber. Do you re lube after x amount of weeks/months?
I guess also this would be similar to why (and maybe this is completely unwarranted so please don't give me sh** for this statement!), I don't use my 1911 for my bedside gun as, although I am comfortable with it cocked and locked by my bed, would it somehow wear out the hammer springs if left it like that for 6 months, guess real question is do hammer springs get weak on AR or handgun in cocked position after long periods of time?
Thank you for any input

Exposed
04-10-2011, 10:36 AM
Hope you don't live too close to anyone. An AR for home defense could hit more than just your target.

JDW67
04-10-2011, 10:43 AM
Hope you don't live too close to anyone. An AR for home defense could hit more than just your target.

He said he has TAP rounds...

Paul_R
04-10-2011, 11:12 AM
Modern metallurgy being what it is, springs "wear out" from cycling. Not from static compression. I wouldn't worry about it at all. But if it's a concern to you why not buy a revolver?

I can think of several reasons not to use an evil assault rifle for primary home defense unless S has truly HTF. Chances are that they'll paint it as an assault weapon no matter how it's configured. And what do you think the carefully hand picked gun ignorant jurors will think when the DA shows them the "murder weapon" in court, ect. And keep in mind if you ever do use a firearm in self defense, no matter how justified, that firearm will be confiscated and IF you get it back at all it's going to be a while. I'd rather give up a $500 revolver than a $2000 custom AR......

Exposed
04-10-2011, 11:20 AM
My bad. Stopped reading before I got to this part.... "I have 75 gr Hornady TAP for HD rounds and have plotted out all possible angles in my place and there is zero threat of overpenetration. All my walls are brick (double layered) and heavy cement floor and live alone"

timbo399
04-10-2011, 11:36 AM
Yes Paul that thought has definitely entered my mind. Picturing a prosecuting attorney showing a jury a black rifle with an Eotech on it vs a shotgun or handgun. Regarding penetration, I have been going through the Box o Truth site and couldn't find any tests for 223 on 2 layers of solid brick wall, but I can't imagine a 223 hp going through this, however I am certainly no ballistics expert.
I do have electronic ear muffs on my bedstand, but in case did not have time to put on, the dbl level of 223 indoors from what I hear, no pun intended, would be pretty brutal indoors. Still, at this point in time I am much more comfortable with my AR as have taken multiple classes with it and will research more into penetration, but cannot imagine that would be an issue with my current layout. I have thought out all possible angles in my place, all surrounded by double brick walls, and not just cosmetic type brick, very heavy brick!
Thanks for the input

Paul_R
04-10-2011, 11:47 AM
Ya know, it just occurred to me that you're contemplating firing a weapon in a room with four wall made of heavy brick. I'd be more worried about ricochets and catching one than penetration.... What a sticky wicket! Low velocity would definitely be better.

I wonder how long you could keep a rubber slug bouncing in a room like that? :D

timbo399
04-10-2011, 12:01 PM
Well I don't exactly live in a 10x10 room with a bed in the middle surrounded by 4 brick walls and no windows, although that does remind me exactly of my freshman college dorm room. The way things are set up, ricochet isn't really a problem. Thanks for all the input, like I said, few more trips to the gym and maybe the 12ga will feel as light as the AR. Although need to put a lot of practice time in beforehand but do shoot clays quite a bit so not like it's a completely new platform for me.
Still not sure though, AR or 12ga, maybe I should just go with the M1A Scout:D

TheDeej
04-10-2011, 12:35 PM
couldn't find any tests for 223 on 2 layers of solid brick wall, but I can't imagine a 223 hp going through this, however I am certainly no ballistics expert.

I have thought out all possible angles in my place, all surrounded by double brick walls, and not just cosmetic type brick, very heavy brick!
Thanks for the input

Penetration shouldn't be an issue in your situation, we've all seen those ar vs ak videos where the shoot cinder blocks and pine blocks to compare power and the .223 usually fails to penetrate. Personally, I'd look for a lighter shotgun or get a handgun. AR would be my home defense choice if I lived on a ranch and not in CA.

510GUY
04-10-2011, 12:38 PM
At the end its what weapon you can get to half sleep and be able to use it if needed

Yugo
04-10-2011, 12:44 PM
Ya know, it just occurred to me that you're contemplating firing a weapon in a room with four wall made of heavy brick. I'd be more worried about ricochets and catching one than penetration.... What a sticky wicket! Low velocity would definitely be better.

I wonder how long you could keep a rubber slug bouncing in a room like that? :D

some one should send this idea to myth busters.

DocSkinner
04-10-2011, 1:29 PM
http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

.223 and various handgun rounds tested on three dry wall walls...

Cokebottle
04-10-2011, 1:39 PM
some one should send this idea to myth busters.
They already did the myth about firing a gun at a wall and having it bounce all the way around the room and back to the shooter.

As defined, it didn't work. A 45 degree angled shot into the first wall, the bullet departed at greater than 45 degrees, so it did not even make the first 90 degree turn needed to confirm the myth.

They worked with it with different ammo and loads and materials, and it took them quite a lot to find ammo that would even hold together through four ricochets.

Eventually, they were actually able to "shoot the shooter"... but the energy was so low that it would not have been a lethal hit, and they were working with a tabletop sized test box.

Uriah02
04-10-2011, 1:40 PM
As far as leaving you weapon with the bolt locked back there shouldn't be an issue, that's how we stored our weapons in the arms room.
Your question regarding why the weight distribution feels different is because the AR is balanced much differently than the Mossberg. 20" barrel compared to 16" significantly changes the weight distribution.

DocSkinner
04-10-2011, 2:06 PM
Or this one:

The Call-Out Bag

by Gunsite Training Center Staff


A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun Calibers

The .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capability for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability.

Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics.

Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls.

The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building:

A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position.

B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1.

C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exterior side facing away from the shooter.)

D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.)

All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files.

The following results were obtained:

1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning.
2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets.
3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles.
4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through.

The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight!

Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.

.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2

DocSkinner
04-10-2011, 2:11 PM
And with your mossberg, you have all those rounds WAY out at the tip of the barrel and leverage is pushing the butt up and barrel down around your forward hand pivot instead of all of that ammo (and its weight) resting just forward of trigger hand with an AR and supported by both hands.

eltorito
04-10-2011, 2:24 PM
Is your house in the middle of nowhere? Is there zero chance that you had to shoot at an angle where the round went through one of your windows and into something/someone else?

Legasat
04-10-2011, 2:33 PM
As far as I am concerned, you have the ultimate HD weapon.

Learn to use your shotgun...

jonnyt16
04-10-2011, 3:04 PM
Nobody can tell you what to use for personal home-defense except for you. If an AR-15 feels better in your hands than a shotgun, then use an AR-15. Don't listen to any of this crap about what a jury may or may not think. My life is more valuable than worrying about using a "politically correct" gun and I hope yours is too.

Use the firearm you are most comfortable with, period.

NYY
04-10-2011, 4:11 PM
1) no hammer to "cock back" on an AR..but i get your point
2) Dont even worry about having one ready in the chamber.... if u dont have enough to time to "pull back the hammer".. your probably fuc*ed already...

pyro3k2
04-10-2011, 5:17 PM
Home defense = handgun/shotgun
Property defense = rifle

timbo399
04-10-2011, 5:37 PM
Thank you for all the intelligent and insightful replies. To answer the question regarding my house setup, it is a loft with 20 foot ceilings so all windows are about 16 from steel reenforced cement floor. So in all honesty, and trust me I've been through every possible threat angle in my head, unless I am being attacked by Godzilla, the chances of the 223 escaping my place are pretty much nil. Thank you again.

G60
04-10-2011, 6:00 PM
If you search google, you'll find .223/5.56 has the least risk of overpenetration compared to most handgun rounds and buckshot rounds.
Box of truth, m4carbine.net,
Etc.

Paul_R
04-10-2011, 6:20 PM
They already did the myth about firing a gun at a wall and having it bounce all the way around the room and back to the shooter.

As defined, it didn't work. A 45 degree angled shot into the first wall, the bullet departed at greater than 45 degrees, so it did not even make the first 90 degree turn needed to confirm the myth.

They worked with it with different ammo and loads and materials, and it took them quite a lot to find ammo that would even hold together through four ricochets.

Eventually, they were actually able to "shoot the shooter"... but the energy was so low that it would not have been a lethal hit, and they were working with a tabletop sized test box.

Really? And did they shoot straight at a brick wall 10 feet away? Would you? :rolleyes:

:D

eltorito
04-10-2011, 6:32 PM
In that case (regarding windows), blast away with whatever you feel comfortable with. Just be prepared to deal with the consequences if your calculations are erroneous.

As to the whole "feeling comfortable with" argument: practice, practice, practice...

Cokebottle
04-10-2011, 7:24 PM
Really? And did they shoot straight at a brick wall 10 feet away? Would you? :rolleyes:

:D
They were shooting steel plates about 2-3 feet away, but not straight at them. They were shooting on a 45 hoping for a 3-way ricochet to return the bullet to the starting position along the 1st wall.

Paul_R
04-10-2011, 7:27 PM
They were shooting steel plates about 2-3 feet away, but not straight at them. They were shooting on a 45 hoping for a 3-way ricochet to return the bullet to the starting position along the 1st wall.

Oh, were they trying to debunk Jed Clampett??? Nothing is sacred to those guys! :chris:

captbilly
04-10-2011, 8:05 PM
Modern metallurgy being what it is, springs "wear out" from cycling. Not from static compression. I wouldn't worry about it at all. But if it's a concern to you why not buy a revolver?

I can think of several reasons not to use an evil assault rifle for primary home defense unless S has truly HTF. Chances are that they'll paint it as an assault weapon no matter how it's configured. And what do you think the carefully hand picked gun ignorant jurors will think when the DA shows them the "murder weapon" in court, ect. And keep in mind if you ever do use a firearm in self defense, no matter how justified, that firearm will be confiscated and IF you get it back at all it's going to be a while. I'd rather give up a $500 revolver than a $2000 custom AR......

How likely do you think it is that this guy is actually going to use his rifle in a for real home defense situation? Maybe a live in a very different kind of neighborhood then you guys but I suspect that the real odds of me having being home while someone breaks into my home, and me needing to use a gun to defend myself, is about the same as being hit by lightning. If I really do end up using my AR to defend myself I think the last of my worries is going to be the fact that I will have to leave the gun with the police for a year or two.

As to the hand picked jury convicting me of murder; your defense lawyer has just as much input in the jury selection as the DA does. And, it is unlikely that such a case would ever end up in court. In most cases the DA will investigate and determine that you acted in self defense, and there will be no charges.

Paul_R
04-10-2011, 8:07 PM
As to the hand picked jury convicting me of murder; your defense lawyer has just as much input in the jury selection as the DA does. And, it is unlikely that such a case would ever end up in court. In most cases the DA will investigate and determine that you acted in self defense, and there will be no charges.

What California do you live in? :confused:

pyromensch
04-10-2011, 8:24 PM
i think about it like this, it may seem heavy, now, but give the situation, (adreniline pumping), the duration, (10minutes, tops). you will probably not feel the weight.

blakdawg
04-10-2011, 8:38 PM
What California do you live in? :confused:

Not the same California as this guy -

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110324/A_NEWS02/103240316/-1/NEWSMAP
http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110408/A_NEWS/104080311

.. apparently the decedent in this matter had killed someone previously, though the details aren't clear from press accounts or from the comments that followed.

Daggermouth
04-10-2011, 9:41 PM
Not the same California as this guy -

http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110324/A_NEWS02/103240316/-1/NEWSMAP
http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110408/A_NEWS/104080311

.. apparently the decedent in this matter had killed someone previously, though the details aren't clear from press accounts or from the comments that followed.

Sadly this is right in my hood. :(

Vanilla Gorilla
04-11-2011, 12:10 AM
As far as I am concerned, you have the ultimate HD weapon.

Learn to use your shotgun...

+1 the old scatter gun is the best for HD IMO

ChrisO
04-11-2011, 9:22 AM
I keep a shotgun at the toe of the bed in the corner leaning against the dresser. This is more so for my lady to get if needs be and just sit in the room. I use a 1911 for the most part for HD. I used to use just the shotgun but I have been shooting my pistols A LOT more than anything else lately and I compete with them so I have more time behind the gun with my 1911 or even my glock.