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View Full Version : Yugo grenade launcher cut off = not longer 922r compliant?


DanDaDude102
04-10-2011, 12:48 AM
Does this count as the rifle being modified therefore falls under 922r? What if a gun store was to sell someone this rifle in such a configuration?


hmm, after goggling I came across a post where someone apparently received a response from the ATF containing this segment


Non-sporting features may be removed from SKS and AK type rifles without
violating 922®, i.e. bayonet, bayonet lug, bipod, grenade launcher, flash
suppressor, and night sight. Any additions to SKS and AK type rifles would
make them nonsporting firearms that would be in violation of 922®. These
additions include: replacing the thumbhole stock with a pistol grip and
military style stock and/or modifying the firearm to accept a high capacity
magazine.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/19536-922r-clarification-from-the-atf/
Is there anyway I can confirm this?

Mssr. Eleganté
04-10-2011, 1:46 AM
THe Yugo M59/66 is only importable because it is a C&R firearm. Military surplus firearms can only be imported if they are C&R. So the modifications you can make to a Yugo M59/66 are different than those you can make to a commercial SKS.

That said, ATF has written memos that say minor modifications to C&R firearms won't remove them from C&R status. That's why they allow Yugo M59/66 rifles to have their grenade launchers removed. Actually, they probably don't want to go on record as saying that it is against the law to destroy a grenade launcher, so they look the other way.

But putting a Yugo M59/66 into a "sporting" configuration would remove its C&R status and trigger 922(r) issues. Doing the same to a commercial Chinese SKS would not trigger 922(r) issues because the are not military surplus firearms.

todd2968
04-10-2011, 7:58 AM
Yugoslav are not c&r they were manufactured in the 80s. Also only Ca. Doj requires the modification. You can have it original everywhere but Ca

762cavalier
04-10-2011, 10:32 AM
Yugoslav are not c&r they were manufactured in the 80s. Also only Ca. Doj requires the modification. You can have it original everywhere but Ca

Yugoslavian zastava type rifles are most certainly on the C&R list. Age does not matter in this instance. and they were made in 1959 and modified in 1966 as in M59 and M59/66;)

Alaric
04-10-2011, 2:11 PM
Referring to the most authoritative source I know, The SKS Carbine, 4th Ed. by Steve Kehaya and Joe Poyer, Yugo M59's were produced from '61 to '67. M59/66 and M59/66 A1's were produced from '67 through '89. http://www.amazon.com/Carbine-Revised-Expanded-Biotechniques-Books/dp/1882391144/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302469844&sr=8-1

Personally I have one made in the mid-70's. It still has the grenade launcher, with a piece of sheet steel curled around it and welded in place. Apparently that was good enough for the ATF and CA DOJ.

TRICKSTER
04-10-2011, 3:59 PM
Yugoslav are not c&r they were manufactured in the 80s. Also only Ca. Doj requires the modification. You can have it original everywhere but Ca
C&R eligibility is not determined solely by age. CZ82's are not 50 years old and they are C&R.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-10-2011, 4:12 PM
Yugoslav are not c&r...

If they weren't C&R then they would be illegal to import into the U.S.

Alaric
04-10-2011, 4:25 PM
C&R eligibility is determined by the age of the gun coming from the country of original manufacture. Since the SKS was developed and produced originally in the USSR, eligibility was determined based on when it first went into production there - not in Yugoslavia.

I have a Bulgarian Makarov that isn't 50 years old either, but because some of the Russian Makarovs are, it makes it C&R eligible.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-10-2011, 5:01 PM
C&R eligibility is determined by the age of the gun coming from the country of original manufacture. Since the SKS was developed and produced originally in the USSR, eligibility was determined based on when it first went into production there - not in Yugoslavia.

Sorry, but that is all mixed up.

For a firearm to be C&R eligible based on the 50 year age requirement the actual firearm has to have been manufactured over 50 years ago. So a Remington Model 870 manufactured in 1960 is C&R while a Remington Model 870 manufactured in 1962 is not C&R. Current Chinese made copies of the Remington Model 870 are also not C&R, even though the Model 870 was first went into production in 1951.

The Yugoslavian Model 59 and 59/66 rifles did not become C&R simply because they were based on a Soviet design that was over 50 years old. They became C&R only because ATF made a determination that they were C&R based on their rarity and/or collectibility.

Here is the definition of C&R from the Code of Federal Regulations...

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

The 50 year rule spelled out in (a) is automatic. But since the Yugos aren't all 50 years old yet they would have been added to the C&R list because of the reasons spelled out in sections (b) and (c) of the C&R definition. This is not an automatic process, since it requires somebody to certify that a particular firearm or group of firearms deserves to become C&R. The process for getting a C&R determination from ATF based on sections (b) and (c) is found in § 478.26...

§ 478.26 Curio and relic determination.

Any person who desires to obtain a determination whether a particular firearm is a curio or relic shall submit a written request, in duplicate, for a ruling thereon to the Director. Each such request shall be executed under the penalties of perjury and shall contain a complete and accurate description of the firearm, and such photographs, diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to enable the Director to make a determination. The Director may require the submission of the firearm for examination and evaluation. If the submission of the firearm is impractical, the person requesting the determination shall so advise the Director and designate the place where the firearm will be available for examination and evaluation.

Rule .308
04-10-2011, 5:26 PM
Isn't there also something about C&R status being based on having been manufactured in a country that is no longer in existance, like East German Maks, Russian SKS, etc?

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 5:36 PM
I think some people are confusing California's definition of C&R with the Federal one. For those who don't think 59/66s are C&R, look up the FEDERAL C&R list. Of course, in California, a firearm (not the design-that's the craziest thing I've read to date) has to be over 50 years old to be a California C&R.

To answer the OP's questions about 922(r), I suggest that you read the law for yourself. Notice, it say that anyone who ASSEMBLES a firearm with more than 10 imported parts is guilty. There is NOTHING in the law about buying, selling, possessing, loaning, etc. Just be careful, if a particular gun is has 10 imported parts without a magazine and is relying on US magazines to stay legal, every time you insert an imported mag into it, you are guilty of another violation even if it is not your gun!

Mssr. Eleganté
04-10-2011, 5:46 PM
I think some people are confusing California's definition of C&R with the Federal one..

...Of course, in California, a firearm (not the design-that's the craziest thing I've read to date) has to be over 50 years old to be a California C&R.

There is no such thing as "California C&R". California does not have its own definition of C&R. Everything that the Feds say is C&R is also C&R in California. It's just that transfers in California of C&R long guns under 50 years of age and C&R handguns have to go through a California dealer.

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 6:01 PM
There is no such thing as "California C&R". California does not have its own definition of C&R. Everything that the Feds say is C&R is also C&R in California. It's just that transfers in California of C&R long guns under 50 years of age and C&R handguns have to go through a California dealer.

True. I think that many people in California get confused about the +50 year old thing in California and the Federal definition of C&R. Some people obviously don't understand that a gun made in 2011 can get onto the CURIO & relic list as a "CURIO".

-hanko
04-10-2011, 6:59 PM
Isn't there also something about C&R status being based on having been manufactured in a country that is no longer in existance, like East German Maks, Russian SKS, etc?
No.

I think some people are confusing California's definition of C&R with the Federal one. For those who don't think 59/66s are C&R, look up the FEDERAL C&R list. Of course, in California, a firearm (not the design-that's the craziest thing I've read to date) has to be over 50 years old to be a California C&R.

To answer the OP's questions about 922(r), I suggest that you read the law for yourself. Notice, it say that anyone who ASSEMBLES a firearm with more than 10 imported parts is guilty. There is NOTHING in the law about buying, selling, possessing, loaning, etc. Just be careful, if a particular gun is has 10 imported parts without a magazine and is relying on US magazines to stay legal, every time you insert an imported mag into it, you are guilty of another violation even if it is not your gun!
As was posted, CA simply refers to the fed's definition of a C&R gun.

922(r) was intended for manufacturers; it's always best to keep it in mind while modifying a gun. That said, I'm not aware of any prosecution of an individual who's modified a gun. As an example, in the FAL world many "US parts" have no identification that would set them apart from OEM parts.

-hanko

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 7:03 PM
922(r) was intended for manufacturers; it's always best to keep it in mind while modifying a gun. That said, I'm not aware of any prosecution of an individual who's modified a gun. As an example, in the FAL world many "US parts" have no identification that would set them apart from OEM parts.

-hanko

I agree but, 922(r) says "assembled" not "manufactured" so, if anyone assembles a ceterfire semi auto rifle or shotgun which can not be imported in it's present configuration with more than 10 imported parts, they are violating the law, right?

Alaric
04-10-2011, 7:37 PM
Sorry, but that is all mixed up.

For a firearm to be C&R eligible based on the 50 year age requirement the actual firearm has to have been manufactured over 50 years ago. So a Remington Model 870 manufactured in 1960 is C&R while a Remington Model 870 manufactured in 1962 is not C&R. Current Chinese made copies of the Remington Model 870 are also not C&R, even though the Model 870 was first went into production in 1951.

The Yugoslavian Model 59 and 59/66 rifles did not become C&R simply because they were based on a Soviet design that was over 50 years old. They became C&R only because ATF made a determination that they were C&R based on their rarity and/or collectibility.

Here is the definition of C&R from the Code of Federal Regulations...



The 50 year rule spelled out in (a) is automatic. But since the Yugos aren't all 50 years old yet they would have been added to the C&R list because of the reasons spelled out in sections (b) and (c) of the C&R definition. This is not an automatic process, since it requires somebody to certify that a particular firearm or group of firearms deserves to become C&R. The process for getting a C&R determination from ATF based on sections (b) and (c) is found in § 478.26...

I'm starting to think that Mssr. Elegante is correct based on my re-reading of the laws at hand. The C&R firearms I've acquired have all been transferred to me with the information which I relayed.

I s'pose the real world test is closer to what I originally said however, as opposed to the strict reading of the law, in that even the BATF and CA-DOJ are mixed up in these convoluted definitions at this point.

Isn't there also something about C&R status being based on having been manufactured in a country that is no longer in existance, like East German Maks, Russian SKS, etc?

If so, that may also have bearing.

dustoff31
04-10-2011, 8:10 PM
I'm starting to think that Mssr. Elegante is correct based on my re-reading of the laws at hand. The C&R firearms I've acquired have all been transferred to me with the information which I relayed.

Mssr. Elegante is quite correct.


I s'pose the real world test is closer to what I originally said however, as opposed to the strict reading of the law, in that even the BATF and CA-DOJ are mixed up in these convoluted definitions at this point.


They aren't mixed up at all. If a gun is over 50 years old, or on the C&R list regardless of age, it's a C&R. That's all there is to it.

DanDaDude102
04-10-2011, 10:43 PM
what about my original question?

Alaric
04-10-2011, 10:43 PM
They aren't mixed up at all. If a gun is over 50 years old, or on the C&R list regardless of age, it's a C&R. That's all there is to it.

Unfortunately it's not always possible to determine the age of specific arms, even when a clear serial # is present. Many of the records of arms produced in the past century were lost in factories when destroyed by wars, revolutions, civil unrest, etc. An example of this is the Zastava Arms factory in Serbia that has been bombed and burned at least twice - in WW2 and during the Yugoslav civil war. Or the Mauser factory in Germany, post WW2.

Such may be the case then with arms produced by factories like Zastava that that is not, "all there is to it".

Mssr. Eleganté
04-10-2011, 11:51 PM
what about my original question?

I tried to answer that in post #2.

ChuckBooty
04-11-2011, 10:47 AM
922r covers manufacturing, not possession.

dustoff31
04-12-2011, 7:41 PM
Unfortunately it's not always possible to determine the age of specific arms, even when a clear serial # is present. Many of the records of arms produced in the past century were lost in factories when destroyed by wars, revolutions, civil unrest, etc. An example of this is the Zastava Arms factory in Serbia that has been bombed and burned at least twice - in WW2 and during the Yugoslav civil war. Or the Mauser factory in Germany, post WW2.

Such may be the case then with arms produced by factories like Zastava that that is not, "all there is to it".

As several people have pointed out. Date of manufacture does not matter if the firearm in question is on the BATFE C&R list.

Both the Zastava M59 and the M59/66 are on the C&R list. It could have been manufactured in 1911 or yesterday, it doesn't matter. They are on the list, so they are C&Rs.

bohoki
04-19-2011, 10:41 AM
i don't think removing something would make it less a curio or relic

its mostly adding things like a monte carlo stock , scope mount , muzzle brake ,detachable magazine

but i am not in charge so its just speculation on my part

Wernher von Browning
04-19-2011, 10:47 AM
Not quite sure what to make of this.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/zastava.php

(Later)
Found this thread on Calguns
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=161563

In other words, the CA DOJ "bulletin" is incoherent. Is anybody surprised?
"Also available at most Big 5 stores."
"Man that DOJ notice is worded to make the average reader to believe that they are banned."

That was my reading. Seems pretty straightforward when it says "Zastava SKS Carbines 59/66 are considered destructive devices in California and therefore may not be purchased, possessed, imported, or kept for sale without a permit." Only later does it go into the grenade launcher aspect. But it says nothing about removing it / deactivating it to be legal. Like I said, incoherent.

Patriot Man
04-19-2011, 11:08 AM
My understanding is you can have the neutered version. It's a destructive device if is a functional GL. People have removed the GL or drilled holes in it or cut it off. All of these things make it nonfunctional. Maybe the experts could pipe in?

Patriot Man
04-19-2011, 11:26 PM
From the above ATF website as referenced here:

"Based on the information in the factory brochure, this grenade launcher is a destructive device, and enumerated as such in California Penal Code section 12301(a)(4)"

I think this is pretty clear. Penal codes don't state what one CAN do legally but what they can't do. The 59/66 is no more a destructive devices than another SKS when the GL is rendered unuseable . If it has a functional, working GL it is a DD. Most of the laws are difficult to understand, but like most of our laws need to be reread multiple times to properly comprehend.