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View Full Version : Discharge of firearms illegal in Yosemite - no exceptions


harbinger007
04-09-2011, 11:10 PM
I searched but did not see this discussed previously, but may have missed it.

According to Yosemite's web site, there is not even an exception for self defense. Is this constitutional?

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm


Yosemite National Park
Weapons/Firearms

Firearms
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. As a starting point, visit the California Attorney General's website.

Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.

Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal.

Other Weapons
The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.

BigFatGuy
04-09-2011, 11:39 PM
I guess this will be the next anti movement. The 2nd allows keeping and bearing, but says nothing about shooting. ;-(

HondaMasterTech
04-10-2011, 3:29 AM
Defending ones self is part of the ..."security of a free state..." in the 2nd Amendment.

nhanson
04-10-2011, 4:55 AM
I believe the law put firearms law in state boundaries depending on the state the park is in. CA allows for self defense discharge and the "policy" does not override state law if I understand the Federal legislation. Any inputs from our legal types.....please.

wellerjohn
04-10-2011, 8:11 AM
I searched but did not see this discussed previously, but may have missed it.

According to Yosemite's web site, there is not even an exception for self defense. Is this constitutional?

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm


Since the only time you can use the firearm is to prevent great bodily injury or death from happening. Violating this asinine rule would be the least of your problems. IMHO

harbinger007
04-10-2011, 8:25 AM
Since the only time you can use the firearm is to prevent great bodily injury or death from happening. Violating this asinine rule would be the least of your problems. IMHO

YNP says it's "illegal", not a "rule". Being arrested in such a situation would be my second biggest problem, not "the least of my problems."

What law specifically are they referring to that makes discharge for self defense illegal?

Ten Rounder
04-10-2011, 8:29 AM
When is policy the actual law? Backdoor rule making is the law? Maybe no hunting or discharge for that. The real law is that what mirrors in state parks. More anti FUD

NytWolf
04-10-2011, 8:46 AM
You might be reading it wrong. You are reading it into a contradiction.

As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal.

You might want to ask yourself, what good is it to pass a new law that allows you to possess a firearm within a national park, yet can't shoot it?

This is the way I read it.


Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.

Discharging a firearm (within these facilities) for any reason is illegal.

I added the stuff in ( ) to clarify.

jtmkinsd
04-10-2011, 8:56 AM
I added the stuff in ( ) to clarify.

Kinda what the anti gun lobby does with the 2nd Amendment. :43:

gunsmith
04-10-2011, 8:57 AM
I doubt that any Jury would convict a good shoot in the Yosemite jurisdiction.

Purple K
04-10-2011, 9:29 AM
They ban the discharge of firearms and the possession and use of bear spray in a forest known to be inhabited by bears........ Niiiiice!

Wernher von Browning
04-10-2011, 9:36 AM
They ban the discharge of firearms and the possession and use of bear spray in a forest known to be inhabited by bears........ Niiiiice!

Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

Purple K
04-10-2011, 9:38 AM
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

I'm glad I could be the Laurel to your Hardy... lol

elnielsen
04-10-2011, 9:40 AM
WOW ^^^^ thats Awesome! LOL

Kid Stanislaus
04-10-2011, 9:42 AM
(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

Congratulations, you've won an all expense paid one week vacation to Juarez, Mexico!! The winner of the second prize will win a TWO week all expense paid vacation to Juarez!:eek:

Ten Rounder
04-10-2011, 11:01 AM
Discharge within almost any city limits is illegal too. So everybody in a self defence shooting is breaking the law? This thread follows "I saw it on the internet so it must be true."

harbinger007
04-10-2011, 11:17 AM
Discharge within almost any city limits is illegal too. So everybody in a self defence shooting is breaking the law? This thread follows "I saw it on the internet so it must be true."

I believe most cities have an exception for self defense. San Francisco's situation is the matter of a suit filed earlier this month, see http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=6165212

Not sure what your point is about this thread.

Hunt
04-10-2011, 11:58 AM
I have no reason to visit Yosemite NP or any other NP. In my experience they are severely overcrowded abysmal substitutes for a real wilderness experience. They often seem to be places where the main purpose of the visit is for people to show off their latest outdoor fashion wear. Wild animals are turned into pets and behave as such, services and goods are priced way above market rates. The experience is over priced, and over regulated with rules about where you can walk, where you can camp, law enforcement running around writing citations. Nope National Parks not for me.

harbinger007
04-10-2011, 12:13 PM
Yeah, Yosemite can be way too crowded but it's not always like that. I once hiked up to Nevada Falls in late October and there were no other footprints in the snow on the trail. It had been at least a couple of days since it had snowed.

Still, I go to Yosemite primarily to enjoy the beauty there which I can still enjoy even if there are too many present.

There are some weird folks that do go there and they present more danger than wildlife as long as you use common sense.

Toast
04-10-2011, 12:54 PM
I have no reason to visit Yosemite NP or any other NP. In my experience they are severely overcrowded abysmal substitutes for a real wilderness experience. They often seem to be places where the main purpose of the visit is for people to show off their latest outdoor fashion wear. Wild animals are turned into pets and behave as such, services and goods are priced way above market rates. The experience is over priced, and over regulated with rules about where you can walk, where you can camp, law enforcement running around writing citations. Nope National Parks not for me.

I don't have much experience with Natl Parks outside CA but Kings Canyon is my favorite. You can really get out to more isolated areas and it's generally much quieter which is nice. The last couple times I've gone where we camped we were the only ones in the entire site, and only saw maybe 10-12 people at the most on the northern half of the park. Yosemite is ridiculous, it's like Disneyland with trees.

krushem2000
04-10-2011, 3:36 PM
yosemite sucks and has been just a breeding ground of stupid people from urban areas to gather over last 20 years... better off camping outside areas of yosemite with less traffic and trouble..

Etihtsarom
04-10-2011, 3:40 PM
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

Oooh I want to play....
You have the right to bring the gun to the bear encounter, you just can't shoot the gun, ergo, you get the bear's arms (in your face). In the end, you STILL had the right to bear arms...They didn't lie.

jdberger
04-10-2011, 3:44 PM
necessity is an affirmative defense.

Ignore the rule.

DisgruntledReaper
04-10-2011, 8:56 PM
OK here is a quandry although I feel I know how most will answer but....

Given the assinine rules either way, which would you choose if you faced a bear (2 legged a-holes are a 'given' response)-

1- use only bear spray
2- use only a gun
3- try bear spray first but have gun ready for back up......that way you can explain that you tried to use non lethal method to make the bear leave..

Just wondering....I may have to take relatives up there in Sept.

Crom
04-10-2011, 9:21 PM
People have been bringing guns into national parks for years, long before the Feb. 2010 law went into effect. People had them for self defense. If someone used a gun for self defense against another person I seriously doubt there would be any charges against the shooter.

Earlier this year I recall a visitor to Yellowstone National Park shooting off some warning shots (shot the dirt) to scare off a wild animal maybe a moose or something. I recall the shooter was lectured by a park ranger and let go with a warning.

dexter9659
04-10-2011, 10:40 PM
Im going on a 50-70 mile hike in a few weeks in Yosemite. Most of the time we will be days out from human contact. If any of the other people I am with is attacked by a bear, I will make sure to grab my sat com phone and call for help. Or maybe I will use my SPOT, or better yet... I will try reasoning with the bear.

swilson
04-10-2011, 11:05 PM
Let me tell you a story. Last year in July I was on my honeymoon with my wife just days after getting married. We spent the majority of our honeymoon camping, fishing, relaxing, hiking and such just a couple miles below the Yosemite entrance in Lee Vining. On our last morning I was walking to the bathrooms and came nearly face to face with a bear as wide as a picnic table and almost twice as tall. It started coming right at me and my only choice was to run, I was barefoot and only had shorts and a wifebeater on and didn't even have my work knife on me.

Luckily for me I can sprint faster than a housecat without shoes, I'm not even joking, I've chased my cat down the street in bare feet and caught her when she escapes. Anyway I turned and booked it before I became breakfast. Prior to my honeymoon I considered taking my M1 carbine and a couple boxes of softpoints, or my Ruger P94 and a box of hollowpoints but for some idiot reason thought it was a bad idea at the time. I thought I'd get hassled by park rangers and turned away or worse, turned in for violating some obscure law I wasn't aware of, and getting married plus work distracted me too from thinking the decision over, especially because I didn't completely consider the threat from wild animals instead of from humans.

I sprinted as hard as I could and even hurdled a bush and a woodpile back to my Silverado about 100 yards away, which was the closest thing in that direction that wasn't a tree or a rock. I ended up flying into the tent in the bed and grabbed my axe but the bear had lost me along the way. I felt triumphant for getting away but also foolish for putting my life and my wife's in jeopardy by not being armed. Not that having my M1 carbine with softpoints is the most ideal rifle to take down a bear with, but is certainly better than a goddamn axe.

What's even stupider is that normally when I go camping I go out to the BLM near Ocotillo I've been shooting and have my guns with me anyway. Needless to say I'll never make that mistake again. The next time I go camping anywhere in California I'll be armed. I will never let myself be exposed like that again, and if I discharge a firearm "illegally" in a state park it'll be for a damn good reason.

Wernher von Browning
04-10-2011, 11:46 PM
Let me tell you a story. Last year in July I was on my honeymoon with my wife just days after getting married. ...I was barefoot and only had shorts and a wifebeater on...


No. I can't say it. It's just too easy... :)

Ron-Solo
04-11-2011, 1:41 AM
Leave Yogi and BooBoo alone. Store your food properly and you won't have bear problems. They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people. Just don't getbetween a mama and her cubs. Do stupid things, win prizes.

If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.

Two legged critters are more of a concern.

lgm118icbm
04-11-2011, 6:37 AM
Im going on a 50-70 mile hike in a few weeks in Yosemite. Most of the time we will be days out from human contact. If any of the other people I am with is attacked by a bear, I will make sure to grab my sat com phone and call for help. Or maybe I will use my SPOT, or better yet... I will try reasoning with the bear.

Use Karate! :D

DisgruntledReaper
04-11-2011, 8:12 AM
I do always have a firearm with me when offroading,camping,hiking,etc so by default I would be armed....I just find the rules/laws/etc that over lap and conflict with one another assinine....I guess it should not surprise me that there is not ONE person in the chain that can correctly proof read and figure out what is wrong with these things...

Yes, I am also more concerned with coming across 2 legged pests,illegal poachers,pot farmers,etc than the wildlife.......I will do everything possible to NOT have to shoot a bear,cougar,moose,etc unless LAST option........the biped cretins.....ehhhhhhhhh.......

Wernher von Browning
04-11-2011, 8:31 AM
...They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people.

What if they're looking for sex? There's that old joke, punchline is, after the third time the bear says to hunter, "You don't come up here for the hunting, do you?"

If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.


Yeah. That joke.

JeepFreak
04-11-2011, 10:37 AM
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

LOL
Billy

paul0660
04-11-2011, 10:44 AM
I have no reason to visit Yosemite NP or any other NP. In my experience they are severely overcrowded abysmal substitutes for a real wilderness experience. They often seem to be places where the main purpose of the visit is for people to show off their latest outdoor fashion wear. Wild animals are turned into pets and behave as such, services and goods are priced way above market rates. The experience is over priced, and over regulated with rules about where you can walk, where you can camp, law enforcement running around writing citations. Nope National Parks not for me.

Wish more people felt as you do. More room for me.

gunsmith
04-11-2011, 11:10 AM
Leave Yogi and BooBoo alone. Store your food properly and you won't have bear problems. They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people. Just don't getbetween a mama and her cubs. Do stupid things, win prizes.

If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.

Two legged critters are more of a concern.

people on the gun boards always say that you don't need a gun for bears, but it seems that most fatal bear attacks ( & I would bet most non fatal ones ) involved ppl who were not armed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

I don't care that most of the time you don't have to worry about bears, I'm gonna bring a gun anyhow.

at least 16 unarmed ppl killed by black bears in north america in the last 10 yrs-none of them or their families thought having a gun was a necessity

CHS
04-11-2011, 1:29 PM
OK here is a quandry although I feel I know how most will answer but....

Given the assinine rules either way, which would you choose if you faced a bear (2 legged a-holes are a 'given' response)-


The last few times I ran into bears (including a time involving bear cubs) I yelled and waved my arms and the bears ran away. It's worked for many other friends that I've known as well.

Yeah, I had a gun nearby, but I've NEVER run into a bear where I felt it was absolutely necessary to have a gun with me.

Now, a mountain lion is a whole other story. But bears are generally pretty tame.

harbinger007
04-11-2011, 1:52 PM
I shared the wikipedia link with a friend of mine from Utah. The company he works with had an event the day before the boy there was killed and he said there were several attacks by black bears while people were sleeping. That's quite different than my own personal experience with black bears but when I googled "utah black bear attacks" there are numerous stories about them.

Still, I'll rely primarily on bear spray when I'm in bear country.

I did backpack with my son a couple of years ago and we came across an a half mile stretch in the trail where there was a lot of mountain lion scat. I made sure my son stayed right in front of me but I was still more than a little anxious and wished I was armed at the time. Now that I've got a CCW I will be.

chaseface
04-11-2011, 2:33 PM
I shared the wikipedia link with a friend of mine from Utah. The company he works with had an event the day before the boy there was killed and he said there were several attacks by black bears while people were sleeping. That's quite different than my own personal experience with black bears but when I googled "utah black bear attacks" there are numerous stories about them.

Still, I'll rely primarily on bear spray when I'm in bear country.

I did backpack with my son a couple of years ago and we came across an a half mile stretch in the trail where there was a lot of mountain lion scat. I made sure my son stayed right in front of me but I was still more than a little anxious and wished I was armed at the time. Now that I've got a CCW I will be.

Just two weeks ago me and a buddy went for an all-day hike in a local state park thats only a mile from my house. We went WAAAAY off trail, as thats the best way to experience the park. I came accross an area just like what your talking about. Mountain lion scat everywhere, like every two feet. I felt so stupid for not bringing a firearm with me. I won't make that mistake again. I just moved to this town in the North Bay Area and I guess I just havnt had to deal with mountain lions since I lived in the mountains of San Diego so I didnt even think about it.

awall919
04-11-2011, 3:17 PM
Iv been reading in the thread about the use of Bear Mace as an alternative to a firearm for self defense while in a N.P, but isn't any pepper spray canister larger than 2oz or so in size illegal for CA citizens to posses? I don't think i have ever seen a 2oz can of bear mace so wouldn't the mace be illegal to? Am I way wrong, or does "Bear Mace" fall under different regulations?
I do not want to spread false info (especially legal info), so if someone could confirm/correct me on this info I would greatly appreciate it.

CHS
04-11-2011, 4:01 PM
Iv been reading in the thread about the use of Bear Mace as an alternative to a firearm for self defense while in a N.P, but isn't any pepper spray canister larger than 2oz or so in size illegal for CA citizens to posses? I don't think i have ever seen a 2oz can of bear mace so wouldn't the mace be illegal to? Am I way wrong, or does "Bear Mace" fall under different regulations?
I do not want to spread false info (especially legal info), so if someone could confirm/correct me on this info I would greatly appreciate it.

Canisters larger than 2oz are only illegal for self defense use against other humans.

Perfectly legal for animals.

And before you say it, you're right, the law makes no sense.

BKinzey
04-11-2011, 4:30 PM
...at least 16 unarmed ppl killed by black bears in north america in the last 10 yrs-none of them or their families thought having a gun was a necessity

The obvious solution then is to not go where black bears are. No, not because there are bears to munch on you, but because I can guarentee more people were killed in transporting themselves to and from those areas than those killed by bears when they got there.

It's just to put things into perspective. So 1.6 people per year die by black bear nationwide. Now how many people die per year in just Yosemite? How many visitors per year does Yosemite get?

Back to the questionable statement:

"Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal."

I don't see any LEO exception so I'm going to conclude this is not the law.

harbinger007
04-11-2011, 4:39 PM
Canisters larger than 2oz are only illegal for self defense use against other humans.

Perfectly legal for animals.

And before you say it, you're right, the law makes no sense.

From what the folks at Counter Attack told me, the larger bear spray cans are registered as a pesticide and exempt from the self defense regulations. I don't know that it would be illegal to use it for self defense against another human if it was actually needed, though.

A CGN member previously posted that he carried bear spray with him while working as a courier in San Francisco. Once a security guard challenged him on it and even mentioned it to a LEO that was there but nothing was done about it. I recall the story as the member said the security guard said "hey, you can't use that on people" to which he responded "oh yes I can, it works really well." He then went on to explained that he encounters problem dogs during his work.

Are there really any limitations on using an otherwise legal to possess item when you need to defend your life?

five.five-six
04-11-2011, 4:47 PM
OK here is a quandry although I feel I know how most will answer but....

Given the assinine rules either way, which would you choose if you faced a bear (2 legged a-holes are a 'given' response)-

1- use only bear spray
2- use only a gun
3- try bear spray first but have gun ready for back up......that way you can explain that you tried to use non lethal method to make the bear leave..

Just wondering....I may have to take relatives up there in Sept.

they have already been posting these signs at trailheads for a while now

http://comedyjuice.com/images/grizzly_bear_warning_sign.jpg

krushem2000
04-11-2011, 6:41 PM
^^^^ :rofl2::rofl2: Seen signs before and still makes me laugh

wellerjohn
04-11-2011, 7:38 PM
:smilielol5::smilielol5:funny:smilielol5:

snoopy
04-11-2011, 9:07 PM
Bears really don't justify guns in Yosemite. Scanning the wikipedia list of fatal bear attacks I had to go back 1875 to find a non-captive Bear killing in California and that was a brown (now extinct in CA Grizzly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

If my memory is correct, the tram guide on my last Yosemite trip said that a deer (antler gore) was the only animal with a recorded kill in the valley. He was commenting on the idiot tourists feeding them as we drove by.

I've now had a number of black bear encounters, including in Yosemite Valley, Yosemite back country, throughout the Sierra, and even in a Yosemite Valley restroom. (I decided I could hold it a while longer:)) They really aren't a problem if you let them go on their way and don't do anything stupid. One Rubicon trip, a bear made off with all my food. Think I still have the action packer with the tooth punctures somewhere.

For the record, I do believe there are very legit reasons to carry in Yosemite. I suspect the purpose and wording of the rule/law the OP quotes is probably more to ensure people aren't hunting or plinking in the park. It really should include a self-defense clause. But, as other have mentioned, if you do discharge a weapon in a legit self-defense situation, and violating that rule is all they have you on, you are off to a great start.

Barkoff
04-12-2011, 1:47 PM
They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people. Just don't getbetween a mama and her cubs. Do stupid things, win prizes.


That runs contrary to what I have read, but given the benefit the doubt, I doubt anyone ever intends to get between mama and cubs, so "making sure" isn't always an option.

GrizzlyGuy
04-12-2011, 2:01 PM
Iv been reading in the thread about the use of Bear Mace as an alternative to a firearm for self defense while in a N.P, but isn't any pepper spray canister larger than 2oz or so in size illegal for CA citizens to posses? I don't think i have ever seen a 2oz can of bear mace so wouldn't the mace be illegal to? Am I way wrong, or does "Bear Mace" fall under different regulations?
I do not want to spread false info (especially legal info), so if someone could confirm/correct me on this info I would greatly appreciate it.

I researched this a while back, see here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3462950&postcount=29). My big ole can of Counterassault is legal, but I still can't bring it or any other pepper or bear spray to Yosemite (http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm):

The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.

As to OP's original question, there is a concept in the law that allows you to break a law if you had no other choice and the outcome from breaking it is better than the outcome from obeying it (very rough paraphrase). IANAL and I can't provide a cite.

Barkoff
04-12-2011, 2:02 PM
That is amazing, I had no idea they outlawed spray in YP..I guess 911 is the answer, eh?

Barkoff
04-12-2011, 2:08 PM
Bears really don't justify guns in Yosemite. Scanning the wikipedia list of fatal bear attacks I had to go back 1875 to find a non-captive Bear killing in California and that was a brown (now extinct in CA Grizzly).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

If my memory is correct, the tram guide on my last Yosemite trip said that a deer (antler gore) was the only animal with a recorded kill in the valley. He was commenting on the idiot tourists feeding them as we drove by.

I've now had a number of black bear encounters, including in Yosemite Valley, Yosemite back country, throughout the Sierra, and even in a Yosemite Valley restroom. (I decided I could hold it a while longer:)) They really aren't a problem if you let them go on their way and don't do anything stupid. One Rubicon trip, a bear made off with all my food. Think I still have the action packer with the tooth punctures somewhere.

For the record, I do believe there are very legit reasons to carry in Yosemite. I suspect the purpose and wording of the rule/law the OP quotes is probably more to ensure people aren't hunting or plinking in the park. It really should include a self-defense clause. But, as other have mentioned, if you do discharge a weapon in a legit self-defense situation, and violating that rule is all they have you on, you are off to a great start.

Well me personally, I don't care whether or not a bear attack is fatal, I have no intentions to submitting to a non-fatal attack. Now if you research "bear encounters" I think you'll find the number much, much higher. So what is an "encounter"? Whatever they wish you to believe. If it gives one piece of mind to know most "encounters" do not turn into attacks, OK, but I'll feel better armed as Yogi is popping off at me.

resident-shooter
04-12-2011, 2:11 PM
What did you expect? lol Its kalie yo. It must be raped in the supreme court.... mercilessly and relentlessly before it allows for any freedoms.

five.five-six
04-12-2011, 5:09 PM
^^^^ :rofl2::rofl2: Seen signs before and still makes me laugh

yea.... unfortunatly, it was ment as a joke, not as a foundation for state law :mad:

yellowfin
04-12-2011, 6:21 PM
^ "Every time they make a joke it's a law, and every time they make a law, it's a joke." --Will Rogers

ubet
04-12-2011, 7:13 PM
Black bears arent deadly? Tell that to the woman that got drug out of her tent by her head a couple of years ago, in Yosemite (did a quick search but cant find the article). I tell you what, I aint letting yogi take my damned food from me. I remember bears in Yosemite, you used to be able to throw a rock at them and they would leave. Now, with the pussification of our society, they think they can rule the roost, and take what they want, and are not scared of people, because people let them take their food or do whatever.

Its to bad they just dont lock the gate going into Yosemite, and make you walk or ride a horse in, it would be a lot better than being disney of the sierras.

gunsmith
04-12-2011, 7:54 PM
if ppl want be unarmed in bear country,they should do so , what angers me is insisting that I too have to be disarmed.

harbinger007
04-12-2011, 8:00 PM
Here's a scary blog about bears in Yosemite that I just now found while searching for a story about the woman mentioned by ubet:

http://www.backpacking.net/featured1.html

Pepper spray did not work very well for this determined Yosemite bear.

harbinger007
04-12-2011, 8:05 PM
We don't need pepper spray or weapons, just roll into a ball:
http://www.yosemitepark.com/bear-encounters.aspx

By the way, I didn't start this thread about self defense against bears specifically. I obtained my CCW in December and plan to carry almost all the time I can legally carry and just thought the statement about it being illegal to discharge ridiculous.

alvgalb
04-12-2011, 9:46 PM
If the possibility for a person to be atacked in a public place become a daily fact, to prohibit a person to exert his/her self defense is an ommision of the truth. The same like with the wild bear example above there is a question of balance in the ecosystem and you can not make a concession to the predator. I think the laws regarding possesion and use of firearms should be more supportive with the people who use them for defend theirselves, the predator is the one who take the advantage of the wrong action not the people who defend theirselves, why a person should be raped and assaulted without shooting dead to the aggresor?

ubet
04-12-2011, 10:01 PM
harb, maybe it was down near reds meadow, because your story said a gal got attacked in her tent. I could have sworn the report I hear, he pulled her out and damn near scalped her, would of sworn it was in yosemite. I carry a pistol with me whenever I go into the back country, next, the mossberg 500 might be going too. We pack in a horseback, so its not a problem to take a shotgun

DisgruntledReaper
04-12-2011, 10:08 PM
Well it does not say you cant carry a huge double headed axe or a samurai sword...guess that is option 2..... you will either end up dead or wearing the bear hide like a viking.....or there will be choipped up 2 legged critter if an encounter runs that way.....

N6ATF
04-12-2011, 10:40 PM
Much easier to wield a gun with little to no training against a charging bear than an axe or katana.

harbinger007
07-20-2011, 9:58 PM
I went to Yosemite last week and exercised my CCW rights on a hike up Half Dome. Bears were active in camp and a ranger came by one evening to lecture us to make sure we were properly storing our food, toiletries, and other smelly stuff. I told him I had noticed online that bear spray was prohibited in Yosemite and asked him if he knew why that was the case. He said that it's not really very effective against black bears and that it's probably prohibited just under the category of being considered a weapon. That left me even more concerned and I decided not to ask further about the prohibition of weapons. This was an armed ranger, not some volunteer, etc.

Anchors
07-21-2011, 1:26 AM
You don't need a firearm for most people either. Sometimes bears freak out for various reasons and yeah, it might be your fault. But I still hope you come out of it alive for even the most foolish mistake.

Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

:rofl2:

Congratulations, you've won an all expense paid one week vacation to Juarez, Mexico!! The winner of the second prize will win a TWO week all expense paid vacation to Juarez!:eek:

Oh man. I wouldn't even take one to Acapulco or Rocky Point.

Im going on a 50-70 mile hike in a few weeks in Yosemite. Most of the time we will be days out from human contact. If any of the other people I am with is attacked by a bear, I will make sure to grab my sat com phone and call for help. Or maybe I will use my SPOT, or better yet... I will try reasoning with the bear.

He probably just wants your money and your watch. If you just give it to him, he probably won't hurt you...
That is how California says to deal with armed robbery too.

The last few times I ran into bears (including a time involving bear cubs) I yelled and waved my arms and the bears ran away. It's worked for many other friends that I've known as well.

Yeah, I had a gun nearby, but I've NEVER run into a bear where I felt it was absolutely necessary to have a gun with me.

Now, a mountain lion is a whole other story. But bears are generally pretty tame.

Big +1.
A bear probably wants to eat your toothpaste lol.
Some of the other apex predators might decide to tear your face off on a whim though.
Also, as strange as it may sound, firearms aren't a bad way to get rid of a snake either.

That said, sometimes bears do freak out for various reasons and being able to dispatch them isn't a bad thing.

chaunbot
07-21-2011, 1:59 AM
I was walking to the bathrooms I was barefoot and only had shorts


Going to the bathrooms barefoot, yikes:eek:

jeep7081
07-21-2011, 6:10 AM
Let me tell you a story. Last year in July I was on my honeymoon with my wife just days after getting married. We spent the majority of our honeymoon camping, fishing, relaxing, hiking and such just a couple miles below the Yosemite entrance in Lee Vining. On our last morning I was walking to the bathrooms and came nearly face to face with a bear as wide as a picnic table and almost twice as tall. It started coming right at me and my only choice was to run, I was barefoot and only had shorts and a wifebeater on and didn't even have my work knife on me.

Luckily for me I can sprint faster than a housecat without shoes, I'm not even joking, I've chased my cat down the street in bare feet and caught her when she escapes. Anyway I turned and booked it before I became breakfast. Prior to my honeymoon I considered taking my M1 carbine and a couple boxes of softpoints, or my Ruger P94 and a box of hollowpoints but for some idiot reason thought it was a bad idea at the time. I thought I'd get hassled by park rangers and turned away or worse, turned in for violating some obscure law I wasn't aware of, and getting married plus work distracted me too from thinking the decision over, especially because I didn't completely consider the threat from wild animals instead of from humans.

I sprinted as hard as I could and even hurdled a bush and a woodpile back to my Silverado about 100 yards away, which was the closest thing in that direction that wasn't a tree or a rock. I ended up flying into the tent in the bed and grabbed my axe but the bear had lost me along the way. I felt triumphant for getting away but also foolish for putting my life and my wife's in jeopardy by not being armed. Not that having my M1 carbine with softpoints is the most ideal rifle to take down a bear with, but is certainly better than a goddamn axe.

What's even stupider is that normally when I go camping I go out to the BLM near Ocotillo I've been shooting and have my guns with me anyway. Needless to say I'll never make that mistake again. The next time I go camping anywhere in California I'll be armed. I will never let myself be exposed like that again, and if I discharge a firearm "illegally" in a state park it'll be for a damn good reason.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 (I think that's how it goes).

haole_50
07-21-2011, 6:18 AM
Yosemite should be more concerned with the STUPID tourist who don't heed the signs, and go over the falls. Maybe the Nanny State will put up caged areas for idiots to observe the "beauty and splendor" thru the bars. Signs everywhere tell the real truth and yet idiots still ignore them. I have no pity or concern of these types, let 'em do what they want, and clear out the gene pool.

Paul S
07-21-2011, 6:56 AM
Yosemite should be more concerned with the STUPID tourist who don't heed the signs, and go over the falls. Maybe the Nanny State will put up caged areas for idiots to observe the "beauty and splendor" thru the bars. Signs everywhere tell the real truth and yet idiots still ignore them. I have no pity or concern of these types, let 'em do what they want, and clear out the gene pool.

Yes indeed. Utter stupidity IS fatal.

Decoligny
07-21-2011, 7:06 AM
Yes indeed. Utter stupidity IS fatal.

Unfortunately not as often as it should be.

almaster666
07-21-2011, 8:25 AM
I have seen Black bears so many times... Granted, I was NEVER alone.
But when they get too close, we just waved and shouted and they ran away, every single time (and this must have happened 10 times @ least).

Look at the number people who are harmed in bear attacks and compare that to the number of people who are harmed by rattlesnake bites. Bears aren't your biggest worry in the wild.

Wherryj
07-21-2011, 11:06 AM
You might be reading it wrong. You are reading it into a contradiction.



You might want to ask yourself, what good is it to pass a new law that allows you to possess a firearm within a national park, yet can't shoot it?

This is the way I read it.



I added the stuff in ( ) to clarify.

Perhaps they were thinking about those of us with the Mossberg 590 and an attached bayonet? Thus, still able to use "firearm" for defense without "discharge"?

BigDogatPlay
07-21-2011, 10:08 PM
Leave Yogi and BooBoo alone. Store your food properly and you won't have bear problems. They are looking for food, and Black Bears don't eat people. Just don't getbetween a mama and her cubs. Do stupid things, win prizes.

If you use a 9mm on a bear, make sure the front sight is ground smooth. That way it won't hurt as much when Yogi shoves it where the sun don't shine.

Two legged critters are more of a concern.

^^^This^^^... all of it.

SickofSoCal
07-22-2011, 12:00 AM
u r just supposed to let the bears eat u!

socal2310
07-22-2011, 8:34 AM
Now, a mountain lion is a whole other story. But bears are generally pretty tame.

Of course, the problem with mountain lions is that they are largely ambush predators. You don't know there's a problem until you are way behind the reaction curve - could you draw and fire your concealed weapon at an animal who has its jaws clamped on your skull and is raking you with its claws? The good news is that they rarely attack even lone adult hikers. Almost all ambush attacks involve runners or bike riders (their prey drive overrides their natural shyness).

If you see it before it attacks, it's usually a challenge and you have a pretty good chance of convincing it to leave you alone by screaming, throwing rocks and waving your arms.

Ryan

12gauge12
07-27-2011, 11:05 PM
The bear probably just wants tree fitty, once he realizes he wont get it, he'll leave and try again later, dressed as a raccoon or something.

I'm more worried of mountain lions where I hike in Yosemite though

misterjake
07-28-2011, 10:43 AM
Let me tell you a story. Last year in July I was on my honeymoon with my wife just days after getting married. We spent the majority of our honeymoon camping, fishing, relaxing, hiking and such just a couple miles below the Yosemite entrance in Lee Vining. On our last morning I was walking to the bathrooms and came nearly face to face with a bear as wide as a picnic table and almost twice as tall. It started coming right at me and my only choice was to run, I was barefoot and only had shorts and a wifebeater on and didn't even have my work knife on me.

Luckily for me I can sprint faster than a housecat without shoes, I'm not even joking, I've chased my cat down the street in bare feet and caught her when she escapes. Anyway I turned and booked it before I became breakfast. Prior to my honeymoon I considered taking my M1 carbine and a couple boxes of softpoints, or my Ruger P94 and a box of hollowpoints but for some idiot reason thought it was a bad idea at the time. I thought I'd get hassled by park rangers and turned away or worse, turned in for violating some obscure law I wasn't aware of, and getting married plus work distracted me too from thinking the decision over, especially because I didn't completely consider the threat from wild animals instead of from humans.

I sprinted as hard as I could and even hurdled a bush and a woodpile back to my Silverado about 100 yards away, which was the closest thing in that direction that wasn't a tree or a rock. I ended up flying into the tent in the bed and grabbed my axe but the bear had lost me along the way. I felt triumphant for getting away but also foolish for putting my life and my wife's in jeopardy by not being armed. Not that having my M1 carbine with softpoints is the most ideal rifle to take down a bear with, but is certainly better than a goddamn axe.

What's even stupider is that normally when I go camping I go out to the BLM near Ocotillo I've been shooting and have my guns with me anyway. Needless to say I'll never make that mistake again. The next time I go camping anywhere in California I'll be armed. I will never let myself be exposed like that again, and if I discharge a firearm "illegally" in a state park it'll be for a damn good reason.

Ummmm if that bear wanted you, you would not be typing this. Bears can out run humans. Bears up to: 35mph, fastest human on record: 27.8mph.

Still a cool story. :)

Khanan
07-28-2011, 1:10 PM
Dear Purple -- clearly, you don't "get" it.

Restrictions are placed on people (bring your guns but don't shoot them; no bear spray) but absolutely NO restrictions are placed on bears.

Don't you see? They are supporting the right to arm bears.

(I'm sorry. I've been waiting for that setup for months. Am I the first? Do I win a prize?)

You win. :eek:

I'm just curious though. Can we keep and arm bears? The keeping part might hurt unless I'm a zookeeper. The arming part would be fun but the people going to the zoo might not feel the same way. :D

Khanan
07-28-2011, 1:13 PM
OK here is a quandry although I feel I know how most will answer but....

Given the assinine rules either way, which would you choose if you faced a bear (2 legged a-holes are a 'given' response)-

1- use only bear spray
2- use only a gun
3- try bear spray first but have gun ready for back up......that way you can explain that you tried to use non lethal method to make the bear leave..

Just wondering....I may have to take relatives up there in Sept.

The answer to this question depends on how much you like your relatives. There may be a number 4. Run faster than everyone else. :D

gunsmith
07-28-2011, 1:26 PM
our great outdoors guru's always repeat the same argument "don't get between a bear/cubs" "you don't need a gun"

Those kids in AK ( NOLS bear attack) had great training and bear spray-they still got mauled. no guns of course.

all the fatal attacks have something in common, the dead didn't have a gun.