If Private Investigators are exempt from the loaded/concealed gun laws.

[Dont Tread on Me]

What is to stop any one of us from becoming a private investigator? You might be unsuccessful in that you have no clients but you still work long hours. This would seam like a way to carry legally.

Checkout Bus & Prof Code Ch. 11.5 Section 7512 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html)

(3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of, and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6 (commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their employment.

[artherd]

(3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of, and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6 (commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their employment.

This part may prove tough. Then again, many of my opperations do not look like opperations, and that is the idea!

[hitnrun]

I believe it takes several years to get an investigator's license. You have to have verifiable work experience in the field for 3 years I believe. Could be worth a shot if someone found a loophole or something.

[NRAhighpowershooter]

Ypu have to work under a licensed PI for 3 yrs and 3K hrs THEN you have to take a state test........ ( I did most of this for my Voc Rehab)

[m1371]

What is to stop any one of us from becoming a private investigator? You might be unsuccessful in that you have no clients but you still work long hours. This would seam like a way to carry legally.

Checkout Bus & Prof Code Ch. 11.5 Section 7512 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html)

(3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of, and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6 (commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their employment.

12031 has nothing to do with carrying concealed. It address carrying a firearm that is "capable of being concealed upon the person" in general.

If you read it in it's entirety, you'll realize it is talking about carrying a loaded firearm in any fashion and not specifically concealed only.

BSIS regulates private investigators, security guards, guard companies, alarm company operators, etc etc. They've clearly stated that for a private investigator or security guard to lawfully carry a firearm, regardless of whether it's open-carry or concealed, the individual must have the proper licenses.

As has been pointed out, there is the stipulation that the firearm may only be carried "while acting within the course and scope of employment".

And I seriously doubt anyone is going to make the effort of getting a PI license just to carry a firearm due to the licensing requirements.

I've bolded the pertinent info for you.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/bsis/publications/bsispi.htm
AUGUST 2002

PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR
(FACT SHEET)

Private Investigator / Qualified Manager

Requirements for Licensure

A private investigator is an individual who (1) investigates crimes, (2) investigates the identity, business, occupation, character, etc., of a person, (3) investigates the location of lost or stolen property, (4) investigates the cause of fires, losses, accidents, damage or injury, or (5) secures evidence for use in court. Private investigators may protect persons only if such services are incidental to an investigation; they may not protect property. An individual, partnership, or corporation licensed as a private investigator may employ a qualified manager to manage the business on a day-to-day basis. To be eligible to apply for licensure as a private investigator/qualified manager, you must meet the following requirements:

* Be 18 or older.
* Undergo a criminal history background check through the California Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Have three years (2,000 hours each year, totaling 6,000 hours) of compensated experience in investigative work; or a law or police science degree plus two years (4,000 hours) of experience; or an AA degree in police science, criminal law, or justice and 2 ½ years (5,000 hours) of experience. Experience must be certified by your employer and have been received while you were employed as a sworn law enforcement officer, military police officer, insurance adjuster, employee of a licensed PI or repossessor, or arson investigator for a public fire suppression agency. (Work as a process server, public records researcher, custodial attendant for a law enforcement agency, bailiff, agent who collects debts in writing or by telephone after the debtor has been located, or person who repossesses property after it has been located is not considered qualifying experience.)
* Pass a two-hour multiple-choice examination covering laws and regulations, terminology, civil and criminal liability, evidence handling, undercover investigations and surveillance. A copy of the Private Investigator Act will be sent to you; and
* Upon notification that you have passed the examination, you must submit a licensing fee of $175 to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services, P.O. Box 989002, West Sacramento, CA 95798-9002.

To apply for a Private Investigator license, submit your completed application, two recent passport-quality photographs, a $50 application fee and a Private Investigator Live Scan form signed by the Live Scan Operator. A $32 DOJ fingerprint processing fee and a $24 FBI Fingerprint processing fee must be paid for each applicant at the Live Scan site. Send the application package to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services, P.O. Box 989002, West Sacramento, CA 95798-9002.

Firearm Permit

Whether you work as a private investigator or qualified manager, you may not carry a gun on duty without having been issued a firearm permit by the Department of Consumer Affairs. To apply for a firearm permit, you must complete:

* A course in the Power to Arrest. The three-hour training covers responsibilities and ethics in citizen arrest, relationship with police, limitations on Power to Arrest, restrictions on searches and seizures, criminal and civil liabilities, terrorism, code of ethics and personal and employer liability. The training and exam may be administered by any licensee.
* A course in the carrying and use of firearms. The 14-hour (8 hours classroom, 6 hours range) training course covers moral and legal aspects, firearms nomenclature, weapons handling and shooting fundamentals, emergency procedures and range training. The course must be given by a Bureau-certified firearms training instructor at a Bureau-certified training facility. Written and range exams are administered at the end of the course. Costs of training are determined by the training facility. For a list of state-licensed training schools, call 1-800-952-5210; and
* Be a citizen of the United States or have permanent legal alien status. Submit a firearm permit application, an $80 application fee and a Private Investigator License w/Firearm Permit Live Scan form signed by the Live Scan Operator. A $28 Firearm Eligibility application, $32 DOJ fingerprint processing fee and $24 FBI fingerprint processing fee must be paid for each applicant at the Live Scan site. Send the application package to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services, P.O. Box 989002, West Sacramento, CA 95798-9002.

Note: a firearms qualification card expires two years from the date of issuance. An applicant must requalify four times during the life of the permit: twice during the first year after the date of issuance, and twice during the second year. Requalifications must be at least four months apart.

Tear Gas Permit

The law requires those who wish to carry tear gas on duty to complete training approved by the Department of Consumer Affairs.

Insurance

A private investigator who carries a firearm or provides armed bodyguard services must have $1 million in insurance - $500,000 for one loss due to bodily injury or death and $500,000 for one loss due to injury or destruction of property.

To request an application for licensure as a private investigator or qualified manager, call 916-322-4000 or 1-800-952-5210, or visit our Web site: www.dca.ca.gov/bsis.


http://www.dca.ca.gov/bsis/publications/bsisgard.htm
SECURITY GUARD
(FACT SHEET)

REQUIREMENTS FOR REGISTRATION

<edited for brevity>

FIREARM PERMIT

You may not carry a gun on duty without having been issued a firearm permit by the Bureau. Also, a firearm permit issued by the Bureau does not authorize you to carry a concealed weapon. You may not carry a concealed weapon on duty without a Concealed Weapons Permit (CCW) issued by local authorities, nor carry a caliber handgun not listed on your firearm permit.

To apply for a firearm permit, you must:

*
Be a U.S. citizen or have permanent legal alien status.
*
Pass a course in the carrying and use of firearms. The 14-hour (8 hours classroom, 6 hours range) training course covers moral and legal aspects, firearms nomenclature, weapon handling and shooting fundamentals, emergency procedures and range training. The course must be given by a Bureau-certified firearms training instructor at a Bureau-certified training facility. Written and range exams are administered at the end of the course. Costs of training are determined by the training facility. For a list of certified training facilities, call (916) 322-4000.
*
Submit a firearm permit application, pay the $80 application fee, and submit a Security Guard Registration w/Firearm Permit Live Scan form signed by the Live Scan site operator. A $28 Firearm Eligibility application, $32 DOJ fingerprint processing fee and $24 FBI fingerprint processing fee must be paid at the Live Scan site. Send your application package to the Bureau of Security and Investigative Services, P.O. Box 989002, West Sacramento, CA 95798-9002.

You may apply for both a guard registration and a firearm permit at the same time for a total fee of $224.

Note: A firearms qualification card expires two years from the date it was issued. An applicant must requalify four times during the life of the permit: twice during the first year after the date of issuance, and twice during the second year. Requalifications must be at least four months apart.


<edited for brevity>


If you have questions about registration as a security guard, call (800) 952-5210. If you have questions about your current guard card, call (916) 322-4000.


Sorry to bust your bubble on this.

[Dont Tread on Me]

OK, the bar to becomming a PI is high. How about an alarm company operator?

[pacificamark]

It would be much easier just to move to one of the CCW friendly counties in California or move to Arizona, Oregon or Colorado then to make a career change using this Rube Goldberg method.

[Dont Tread on Me]

I talking about "looking" like you're an alarm company operator or a PI. Just trying to see if we have a OLL style gap in the law that we can use without resorting to moving or changing jobs.

[sniper_jay]

join your local law enforcement's reserve program. full police powers including CCW.

[Mark in Eureka]

You need to remember that these laws were written decades before the state requirment that you had to have a state issued permit to carry a firearm in the course of your employement. The laws, rules, and regulations have been changed many time since then. The law still says you can shoot any felon, let alone a fleeing felon. Do not beleve it. Follow the letter of the law here and you will go to jail.

A Alarm Operators license does not have anything to to do with firearms. If think that you can get a Firearms Qualification Card if you are a registered Alarm Operator or employee, but that is as close as it comes.

A Private Patrol Operators license, a private contractor of guards and guard services, does have several exemption to firearms law; however, you still need to have a Firearms Qualification Card to carry a weapon in uniform on the job and a CCW if you are going to carry the weapon concealed on the job.

The only class of people I know of, besides cops, who are exempt from the CCW laws are Bank Couriers. They are armoured car employees. They are exempt, will working on the job on a armored car, from both prohibtions: carrying a Weapon in Public AND having a Loaded Weapon in Public. Even they, Unless they were hired before somtime in the 1980's, must have a Firearms Qualification Card.

Of course most armored car companies have policies against carrying a concealed weapon, a non company weapon, or more that one weapon.

Here in Humboldt County almost anyone with a clean record can get a CCW if they wish. Earlier this year our local paper had a artical abouts this and stated that Sheriff had in the last year, refused only two applications for cause. The few other refusals were for people who did not qualify by law.

.

[slipknot]

Alarm company operators may be able to get a ccw, but it is usually restricted to carrying only while working.

[m1371]

OK, the bar to becomming a PI is high. How about an alarm company operator?

Dude, did you even read the info I posted for you? :confused:

Whether you work as a private investigator or qualified manager, you may not carry a gun on duty without having been issued a firearm permit by the Department of Consumer Affairs.

You may not carry a gun on duty without having been issued a firearm permit by the Bureau. Also, a firearm permit issued by the Bureau does not authorize you to carry a concealed weapon. You may not carry a concealed weapon on duty without a Concealed Weapons Permit (CCW) issued by local authorities, nor carry a caliber handgun not listed on your firearm permit.

Go ahead and waste your time pursuing this idea of yours in an attempt to circumvent the state's CCW laws, all you're doing is wasting your time and $$$.

Being a BSIS licensed private investigator, security guard, alarm company operator, whatever does NOT allow you to carry a firearm concealed. If you get licensed as one of the above occupations, you're going to have to get a firearms permit from BSIS and that is ONLY for EXPOSED carry while in the performance of your duties.

If you feel the need to continue pursuing this scheme, I would suggest you call BSIS directly and ask them whether or not a private investigator license will allow you to carry a concealed firearm.

Then call your local sheriff and ask them the same thing.

I can tell you right now what they're both going to say.

[Dont Tread on Me]

Looks like these are a dead end but it was worth the exercise of thinking it through to see if there was a hole we could exploit.

Anybody see any other possible holes??

[adamsreeftank]

I have been told that, in addition to being a reserve police officer, there is another part-time option. That is a group that is called up during emergencies. I think there are two classes. The first deals with natural disasters and such, and does not allow concealed carry. The second class includes things like looking for escaped criminals and other hazardous jobs, and may include the chance to get a ccw.

I'm not sure if you need to attend the police academy or not. In either case, it would require a commitment of time and energy to be part of the group. There really is no easy way to get a CCW if your Chief/Sherrif won't issue.

Edit to add:

I have done some searching and found what I was talking about. It is the ESRT:

http://www.co.solano.ca.us/Profiles/Profile.asp?NavID=915


Solano County Emergency Services Response Team


Solano County Emergency Services Response Team (ESRT) is comprised of a highly motivated team of volunteers dedicated to providing assistance to the citizens of Solano and other counties throughout California. We operate under the direction and control of The Solano County Sheriffs Office, and The County Office of Emergency Services. Our members are both volunteers and sworn reserves with expertise in varied disciplines to provide the Sheriff’s office with support in search and rescue, disaster response, evidence searches, crowd management, law enforcement manpower support requirements, public relations events and other activities that supplement the resources of the department. Our Management Teams, Ground Search Teams, Dog Teams, Air Search Teams, Dive Teams, All Terrain Vehicle Teams, and Amateur Radio Teams are ready for public service 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, (rain or shine).

The ESRT Team when not training is working missions such as searching for missing people, evidence searching, disaster assistance (floods, earthquakes, fires, etc.), public education such as amateur radio (HAM) and adult youth programs like Hug-A-Tree and The Explorer Scouts. Some of our past missions have been The Miller Canyon Fire, Rio Vista Flood, Solano County Fair, 4th of July Fire Watch, Solano County SWAT Competition, and many more activities in and out of Solano County. We enjoy what do and we provide an essential Community Service. Our Boot Camp promises to be a challenge for anyone who wants to join our Team. It will train newcomers about things like becoming a Disaster Service Worker, using a Map and Compass, Clothing & Survival Techniques, Search and Rescue Techniques, Search and Rescue Equipment, Communications, Ropes and Knots, Man Tracking, Search Dog Basics, Basic Aircraft Operations, and more. The training is non-stop.

To become a part of The Solano County ESRT Team you should be a resident of Solano County or be able to provide unique qualified resources (ie. canine, aircraft, or technical abilities). Be 18 years of age with a High School Diploma or 14 years old and in High School with at least a 2.0 GPA. You must pass a fingerprint and background check. This undertaking can be very rewarding, as well as demanding, but you will discover qualities within yourself you never dreamed you had. You’ll make new friends who share your commitment to caring. The support you bring to this organization will reinforce the Search and Rescue motto, “So that others may live.”

The Office of Emergency Services
530 Union Avenue, Suite 100
Fairfield, CA 94533
(707) 421-6330
(707) 421-6383 FAX
OES@SolanoCounty.com

[Dont Tread on Me]

I found one. It's called 'following the law'. It goes like this. Take the class. Fill out the application. Pay your fees. Get your permit legally. Rinse, repeat...

I guess you don't live in Santa Clara!


If you are more concerned about circumventing the law, then quite frankly


Wow, looks like I'm misunderstood here! I'm not talking about breaking the law. "Circumventing" certainly does not apply. One cannot go around or bypass the law. There is a pretty large community of folks on this site interested in looking for gaps in the law. Look at the OLL thing. Do you have one BTW?

I hope you don't succeed, and I hope you are never allowed to carry a firearm since you've blatantly demonstrated your lack of maturity, your limited forethought, and your ill grasp of basic responsibility.

Honestly, this is offensive to me. Take a look at my other posts on this site then come back and decide if this is appropriate.

[ohsmily]

I found one. It's called 'following the law'. It goes like this. Take the class. Fill out the application. Pay your fees. Get your permit legally. Rinse, repeat...

I've heard it works.

If you are more concerned about circumventing the law, then quite frankly, I hope you don't succeed, and I hope you are never allowed to carry a firearm since you've blatantly demonstrated your lack of maturity, your limited forethought, and your ill grasp of basic responsibility.


For those of us that don't live in a Podunk county like yourself, it is extremely difficult if not impossible to get a CCW. So, your rinse/repeat advice doesn't apply to many of us. He was merely engaging in a dialog to talk through some possible options. He didn't break the law nor did he didn't advocate breaking the law even though the course of action may have been a little midguided. Though his plan won't work out, he started a thread to discuss it; that is one of the functions that this forum serves. Get over it Rex.

[ohsmily]

I do know that looking for 'loopholes' in the law is simply trying to circumvent it, no matter how you slice it.

Good luck to you.

You must feel the same way about OLLs then. :rolleyes:

Also, you were way off base to skewer him.

[xenophobe]

Well, I guess it sucks to be you, then. Contact the local law enforcement agency, do a PRA, and sue. I don't know what to tell you. Vote for a better sheriff, maybe. I do know that looking for 'loopholes' in the law is simply trying to circumvent it, no matter how you slice it.

Good luck to you.


The only thing left for you to do is to move out of the state and tell us 'it's our fault we live in a commie state, so move to a free one'...

Please, attempt to be more childish...

[kantstudien]

If you can't get a CCW where you currently live, then move. Simple enough.

[Dont Tread on Me]

If you can't get a CCW where you currently live, then move. Simple enough.

Moving is expensive. I looked into moving to Portland this summer. It would be hard for my wife and I to find such great jobs there and it would be a big drop in salary. We would eat about $50k in realtor fees. We would be separated from our family and friends in the Bay Area. All this just to live somewhere with sensible gun laws?

It is not fair that Californians have to cut and run because our politicians have their heads up their rear ends on 2nd amendments issues. Plus running does not work. What passes in CA tends to spread. What's stopped in CA is stopped.

I prefer to stand and fight for political change and also starting threads like this one. It turned out to be a dead end but it was worth exploring.

[ohsmily]

I think the whole OLL furor was basically throwing a brick at a beehive, but to each his own.

And, yes...it was circumventing the law via a 'loophole'. Congrats. Now the DOJ has taken notice and are kludging up the law so it's even more difficult to own an 'AR'.

Way to go, winner.

What are you talking about??? I guess you were happy with your FAB-10 before OLLs became apparent....How is it HARDER now to own an ar-15 than before???? FFLs would not even CONSIDER transferring a lower before we "threw a brick at a beehive"...Damn, you are one bitter dude (and you are wrong; it is easier to get an AR-15 now than it was before)...

In your words "good luck to you" in your endeavors to find the negative in good things.

CalGuns has its own "Debbie Downer" or "Negative Nancy" in Rex I guess....

[adamsreeftank]

I think the whole OLL furor was basically throwing a brick at a beehive, but to each his own.

And, yes...it was circumventing the law via a 'loophole'. Congrats. Now the DOJ has taken notice and are kludging up the law so it's even more difficult to own an 'AR'.

Way to go, winner.

Wow, that's quite a hole you are digging for yourself. It's our fault for wanting to buy AR style guns after Harrot that caused the DOJ to "take notice" and start acting stupid? What are you going to say next. We shouldn't be allowed to own guns because someone might get hurt?

[mow]

Can I think what I want too?

PLEASE!!!!!!

[Crazed_SS]

Wow, that's quite a hole you are digging for yourself. It's our fault for wanting to buy AR style guns after Harrot that caused the DOJ to "take notice" and start acting stupid? What are you going to say next. We shouldn't be allowed to own guns because someone might get hurt?


You guys are jumping all over him, but he's right. This whole PI thing is ridiculous and people are just trying to find some kind of way around things to get what they want. It's like when people try to get around prostitution laws by using "escorts" .. Escorts might be technically legal, but everyone knows what the real deal is.. no one is fooling anyone.

It's the same with OLL's. AR-15's were banned in this state years ago. You guys need to be honest with yourselves and admit that OLLs are a nice hole in the law. You know and I know, a Stag-15 lower (Like the one I bought) is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a Bushmaster XM-15 lower.

[Dont Tread on Me]

We have started to debate if it is valid to look for gaps between what is written in the law and the intent of those who wrote the law.

It would be best to start a general thread on this as it is certainly worth discussing. Should we just follow the law or is it valid to look for ambiguities and uncovered situations that get around the original intent? Does finding and exploiting these make things better or worse? All good questions.

As for the original topic of this thread, I think it is clear the bar to satisfying the PI or alarm company operator requirement is too high. This is not an exploit. Time to look for more or maybe not depending on the outcome of the new thread I proposed.

[Dont Tread on Me]

This demonstrates that if you really need a CCW (where "need" is defined by the CLEO), you can get one. And in at least one case, it seems to have been issued to someone who shouldn't have had one (at least judging by the press reports, which might be severely biased).

Possible yes. Probable no. Take a look at the CA CCW figures. Santa Clara county has 1.68 million residents and 124 ccws.

1.68 million. 124 ccws.

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/cntymap.gif

My experience is that the county pushes you to your city. I went to my city and they would not even give me an application. The nice public servant laughed, said you won't get one, then told me that they have real business and to get lost.

[ibbryn]

And, yes...it was circumventing the law via a 'loophole'.....Way to go, winner.

Wow. So is it circumventing the law if I use an accountant to find some legal methods ("loopholes") that I didn't know about to lower my taxes?

How about if I try to purchase my next house on one side of the county line (where the sherrif issues CCW as required by state law) vs the other side of the county line (where the sherrif rountinely deneys CCW permits [except to his pals]). Am I exploiting a "loophole?"

Brit asked a good question. Is there any way a resident of a county that will not issue to common citizens can obtain a permit under a different method? The PI method sounds impracticle. Reserve officer may be impossible. Moving, impossible. "Lather, Rinse, Repeat" - asinine.

[Crazed_SS]

guess that means no permit then..

[xenophobe]

CCWs are issued in Santa Clara county...

Not in recent history... There are some older people who may have had them before Laurie Smith became Sheriff.

If you want one now, a donation of <$40,000 to the Sheriff's Fund and a legitimate serious need may get you a permit.

SCCO has not been a 'MAY issue' county for a long time.

As a firearms dealer with keys and alarm codes to the shop who routinely has a lot of firearms being transferred to/from gun shows, I have ZERO chance of getting a CCW in SCCO. Even after the rash of gun/pawn shop robberies/murders in the area, the SO will not issue them.

[adamsreeftank]

You guys are jumping all over him, but he's right. This whole PI thing is ridiculous and people are just trying to find some kind of way around things to get what they want. It's like when people try to get around prostitution laws by using "escorts" .. Escorts might be technically legal, but everyone knows what the real deal is.. no one is fooling anyone.

It's the same with OLL's. AR-15's were banned in this state years ago. You guys need to be honest with yourselves and admit that OLLs are a nice hole in the law. You know and I know, a Stag-15 lower (Like the one I bought) is for all intents and purposes the same thing as a Bushmaster XM-15 lower.

Interesting parallel you draw between escorts and OLLs. Let me see if I can expand on it:

If I hire an "escort" and don't do anything illegal, I haven't broken the law. If I offer money for "services", then I have broken the law.

If I buy an OLL and don't put prohibited features on it, I haven't broken the law. If I do put a pistol grip and a detachable mag, then I have broken the law.

In both cases, the test of whether I have broken the law is... whether I have broken the law! Genious!

And regarding the Stag versus Bushmaster, they are NOT the same. A registerd Bushmaster has the inherant legal right to be configured as an assault weapon. A Stag does not. Big difference in my book. Now if the DOJ had listed Stags like they said they were going to, then there would be much more similarity between them.

[Crazed_SS]

An escort is a hooker. Regardless of how people, get around the whole "paying for services" part... My point stands.. everyone knows what the real deal is... the john, the girl, and the authorities..

A Stag-15 lower receiver is a AR-15 lower receiver. Let's not kid ourselves; it is virtually identical in construction to a Bushmaster or Rock River Arms lower. A rose by any other name is still a rose.
If the legal disposition of OLL Rifles was so cut and dry, we wouldnt have threads like this.. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=42091

We all know the intent of the AWB was to ban evil ARs and AKs and such. We just got lucky and got a court ruling in our favor.. that's all.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/lowers/Images/9349102-s.gif
http://www.carricozarmory.com/images/lowers7.jpg

[ohsmily]

Hey AdamsReefTank, Crazed SS simply doesn't understand your analogy. Crazed SS, we aren't breaking the law no matter which way you slice it; get over it. Your citation to the CalGuns thread about someone who was arrested (but released) does not prove your point. People get arrested ALL THE TIME for actions that are within the law, but some ill informed officer might not comprehend the finer points of the law at the time of the arrest. These people aren't convicted or even charged because they are clearly (to the DA) within the bounds of the law.

[Crazed_SS]

I never said anyone was breaking the law.
If I thought OLLs were illegal, I wouldnt have ordered one.

Im not too convinced of their legality when assembled into a complete rifle w/ fixed-mag kit though, which is why Im just gonna keep mine in stripped form until the DOJ decides what they're gonna do. If anything, I could sell it later.. im sure someone would take a brand new lower for 100 bucks or so.

But anyway.. on the original topic, it's probably easier for someone to just move out of state instead of changing professions simply to get a permit.

[ibbryn]

I never said anyone was breaking the law.... on the original topic, it's probably easier for someone to just move out of state instead of changing professions simply to get a permit.

mhmmmm....okay....thanks for your opinion on what kind of threats we are living with, how easy it is to move our families out of state and our potential prospects in a profession of your choice.

[adamsreeftank]

An escort is a hooker. Regardless of how people, get around the whole "paying for services" part... My point stands.. everyone knows what the real deal is... the john, the girl, and the authorities..

A Stag-15 lower receiver is a AR-15 lower receiver. Let's not kid ourselves; it is virtually identical in construction to a Bushmaster or Rock River Arms lower. A rose by any other name is still a rose.
If the legal disposition of OLL Rifles was so cut and dry, we wouldnt have threads like this.. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=42091

We all know the intent of the AWB was to ban evil ARs and AKs and such. We just got lucky and got a court ruling in our favor.. that's all.
...

Hey SS,

Have you ever had a massage? I have and guess what, I did NOT get a "happy ending". Maybe you would say "massage girls are really just prostitues, everyone knows that." But it isn't true. You haven't broken the law unless you do something illegal.

That is what Harrot was all about. Basically, they ruled that if the receiver wasn't listed as an AW and it wasn't built as an AW, then it WAS NOT an AW, regardless of the similarities to an AR-15.

To say we just "got lucky" with Harrot is wrong. The DOJ failed to maintain the list of named AWs. The courts ruled that an unlisted rifle built legally was legal. Plain logic finally prevailed (for once.)