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View Full Version : No magazine = Assault Weapon?!


Capt Deano
04-09-2011, 4:55 PM
I went to a local gun shop today to do a person to person transfer. I was selling a CA compliant AR 15 with a Bullet Button. I gave the case with the magazine-less rifle to the gun shop guy and turned to give the 10 round mag. and sling to the guy buying the gun. The gun shop guy said he needed to put the magazine in the rifle, as it would be an illegal assault weapon without the magazine. I reminded him that it had a Bullet Button, but he said it did not matter-without a magazine IN it, it was CAPABLE of accepting a 20 or 30 round magazine, making it an illegal assault weapon!? Is this accurate or FUD?

CSACANNONEER
04-09-2011, 4:57 PM
FUD but, if it gives the shop owner a warm fuzzy feeling to have a mag in the gun while it's in his store, there's no harm in it. He should just say that it's store policy though.

Connor P Price
04-09-2011, 4:58 PM
Untrue.

Andy Taylor
04-09-2011, 4:58 PM
I suspect FUD, as anytime you disassembled the gun for cleaning, or changed mags, it would create an AW. IANAL

Which Way Out
04-09-2011, 5:03 PM
I would just keep the peace and do as he asked. He might be better to deal with in the future when you need something else.
Of course I am sorry that doesn't answer your question, but I also don't consider my self an expert.

DesertGunner
04-09-2011, 5:07 PM
Tell him he's an idiot. I always prefer to do this, just in case they don't know. It's heartbreaking to think of all the idiots running around, tragically unaware of their condition.

BOFH
04-09-2011, 5:08 PM
He is wrong. It required a tool to remove it.

Mofo-Kang
04-09-2011, 5:13 PM
I went to a local gun shop today to do a person to person transfer. I was selling a CA compliant AR 15 with a Bullet Button. I gave the case with the magazine-less rifle to the gun shop guy and turned to give the 10 round mag. and sling to the guy buying the gun. The gun shop guy said he needed to put the magazine in the rifle, as it would be an illegal assault weapon without the magazine. I reminded him that it had a Bullet Button, but he said it did not matter-without a magazine IN it, it was CAPABLE of accepting a 20 or 30 round magazine, making it an illegal assault weapon!? Is this accurate or FUD?

The block of steel on the ground is CAPABLE of being machined out and made into a minigun, but that doesn't make it one. The rifle is CAPABLE of taking magazines that would make it an AW, but until it has those magazines in it, it isn't one. That's my understanding of how it works, anyway.

bwiese
04-09-2011, 5:14 PM
This is probably a byproduct of early hypercautiousness with screwdown mag catches - before the latching BulletButton devices became available.

Yes, if you have a loose Prince50 or Sporting Conversions device, etc. you could readily be regarded as having an AW.

[I will however note that a San Francisco case was resolved last year where a seized OLL AR was found to have an empty magwell and yet also had a screwed-down Prince50 device. This case had other 'color' to it that had to be separately resolved. However, good lawyering, an expert witness, combined with a fair judge (Kathleen Feinstein, the Senator's daughter, is well-regarded by both sides of the bar as bright and impartial) led to the firearm not being regarded as an assault weapon and was in fact a "single shot rifle". And while trial court decisions are not precedential or even formally published, this is a useful factoid.]

A BulletButton maglock would serve zero use if it could not allow the gun to have an empty magwell for some period of time. (If even one microsecond of illegal transition into AW were to occur, the device would be useless.)

Remember that we have a lack of constructive possession for AW status; the gun must be examined/considered "as it stands", without regard for any prospective parts changes, removals or additions.

A properly latching BulletButton-style maglock makes the gun NOT capable of accepting a detachable magazine. And a freestanding magazine's status is neither intrinsically detachable nor nondetachable; that status is only determined by the relationship with the gun.

A BB maglock'd gun that has a mag affixed is not capable of accepting a detachable magazine becuase the existing magazine would have to be removed first. And a BB maglock'd gun that has an empty magwell is not capable of accepting a detachable magazine because the moment a freestanding magazine is inserted, it latches in and requires a tool to remove - making it a nondetachable mag.

We will probably see some more comments like this as OLL black rifles are now starting to be be sold by old-line gunshops who only have a basic grasp of some of this info.

mossy
04-09-2011, 5:18 PM
the guy is FOS (full of s**t)

Cokebottle
04-09-2011, 5:19 PM
Ya, it's FUD, but it is one of the reasons that, even though I shoot blocked 10/30 bodies, I always transport with an empty 10rd mag locked in.

In the unlikely event of an officer asking questions, it's a lot easier to say "Look, this magazine is not detachable" than it is to say "Here, let me attach this magazine to show you that the magazine is not detachable."

mdimeo
04-09-2011, 5:49 PM
An empty magwell with BB doesn't have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. It has the capacity to accept a non-detachable magazine.

Excelsior
04-09-2011, 7:02 PM
What exactly does "FUD" mean?

Chester
04-09-2011, 7:03 PM
An empty magwell with BB doesn't have the capacity to accept a detachable magazine. It has the capacity to accept a non-detachable magazine.

Exactly! The infringement on our rights is specifically worded to describe a DE-tachable magazine, which it is not because with the Bullet Button on, it requires to the use of a tool to DE-tach the magazine, thus making it a permanent, fixed magazine.

Granted, it is easy to make the assumption that it's an assault weapon with an empty mag well. Doesn't mean they're intentionally spreading FUD, but the assumption is wrong none the less.

Chester
04-09-2011, 7:04 PM
What exactly does "FUD" mean?

Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606)

Noxx
04-09-2011, 7:05 PM
What exactly does "FUD" mean?

F'd up Disinformation

Capt Deano
04-09-2011, 8:58 PM
Hey Guys, thanks for the replies. The guy was cool and it was a reasonable request. I was just baffled as to how I could remain legal if I went shooting, removed the magazine to load it & had a LEO approach & say I had an "assault weapon" because there as no magazine in the rifle at the time.

the_natterjack
04-09-2011, 9:03 PM
How bout, empty mag well, shop has +10 round magazines around for LEO to purchase, some yahoo makes a mistake and ooops creates an AW.

It's just one less stupid thing that could happen at an FFL that could shut them down or even put them in jail.

It kinda sucks to be a FFL in California, I can see now why they old guys get all grumpy. Give em some slack their worried about staying in business and out of jail.

Brian


I went to a local gun shop today to do a person to person transfer. I was selling a CA compliant AR 15 with a Bullet Button. I gave the case with the magazine-less rifle to the gun shop guy and turned to give the 10 round mag. and sling to the guy buying the gun. The gun shop guy said he needed to put the magazine in the rifle, as it would be an illegal assault weapon without the magazine. I reminded him that it had a Bullet Button, but he said it did not matter-without a magazine IN it, it was CAPABLE of accepting a 20 or 30 round magazine, making it an illegal assault weapon!? Is this accurate or FUD?

BOFH
04-09-2011, 9:08 PM
Nothing wrong with them having a policy they stick to for whatever reason they see fit but they should not state such policy as required to be legal.

Excelsior
04-09-2011, 10:47 PM
Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=78606)
Thanks, man.

Ibgreezy
04-09-2011, 11:20 PM
This happened to me twice, the people I sold to both had to buy mags from the transferring shop.

G1500
04-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Does my empty gun case = unregistered 50 BMG? After all, it is acceptable of accepting a 50 BMG rifle.

Ibgreezy
04-09-2011, 11:22 PM
Lol@G1500

PEBKAC
04-09-2011, 11:22 PM
It's FUD but I've encountered it as well. As the transaction was already taking a turn for the bizarre, at that point I just rolled with it and didn't argue the point as the shop had been quite helpful otherwise.

SJgunguy24
04-10-2011, 12:51 AM
Does my empty gun case = unregistered 50 BMG? After all, it is acceptable of accepting a 50 BMG rifle.

Now your thinking like a DOJ agent, make it up as you go, half truths, and outright lies as a standard, not just a policy.

pepsi2451
04-10-2011, 2:22 PM
How do you install the lock they make you buy without removing the mag?

G1500
04-10-2011, 3:07 PM
How do you install the lock they make you buy without removing the mag?

You fill out a safe affidavit. :D

BALDANDTOPLESS
04-10-2011, 3:17 PM
Happened to me once. I split up the upper and lower now so you only have the lower to transfer at the shop.

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 3:19 PM
How do you install the lock they make you buy without removing the mag?

If you are talking about a magazine lock, no one forces you to buy one. Or, are there still some FFLs that don't understand the law? There is no reason to put a mag lock on any firearm unless. it is semi auto and you want to put evil features on it. Many of us have legal OLLs without evil features or mag locks. If you are dealing with a FF who requires you to purchase some sort of mag lock from him/her, I suggest finding a new FFL who knows the law. Besides that, you can make you gun into a fixed magazine build with nothing more than a locking nut in place of the mag release button. This is how the very first fixed mag builds were done.

Cokebottle
04-10-2011, 3:24 PM
Happened to me once. I split up the upper and lower now so you only have the lower to transfer at the shop.
An FFL that believes that an AW is created when no magazine is inserted would also likely not recognize the fact that a lower without an upper is neither centerfire nor semiautomatic.

G1500
04-10-2011, 3:59 PM
If you are talking about a magazine lock, no one forces you to buy one. Or, are there still some FFLs that don't understand the law? There is no reason to put a mag lock on any firearm unless. it is semi auto and you want to put evil features on it. Many of us have legal OLLs without evil features or mag locks. If you are dealing with a FF who requires you to purchase some sort of mag lock from him/her, I suggest finding a new FFL who knows the law. Besides that, you can make you gun into a fixed magazine build with nothing more than a locking nut in place of the mag release button. This is how the very first fixed mag builds were done.

I believe he is talking about the gun lock they make you purchase if you do not have a safe.

I could be wrong though.

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 5:00 PM
I believe he is talking about the gun lock they make you purchase if you do not have a safe.

I could be wrong though.

Yea, it could be either. But, there are trigger locks that clamshell around the trigger. So, he could use one of those and keep the mag installed if he wanted to.

DesertGunner
04-10-2011, 5:27 PM
You fill out a safe affidavit. :D

Apparently some people haven't figured that one out yet.

sreiter
04-10-2011, 5:56 PM
If you are talking about a magazine lock, no one forces you to buy one. Or, are there still some FFLs that don't understand the law? There is no reason to put a mag lock on any firearm unless. it is semi auto and you want to put evil features on it. Many of us have legal OLLs without evil features or mag locks. If you are dealing with a FF who requires you to purchase some sort of mag lock from him/her, I suggest finding a new FFL who knows the law. Besides that, you can make you gun into a fixed magazine build with nothing more than a locking nut in place of the mag release button. This is how the very first fixed mag builds were done.

huh? are you talking about a mag lock as in a BB, or a safety lock? i think the OP is talking a child safety lock.

*NOTE - you dont have to buy one from the store. Your "friend" <wink> can sell you theirs, as long as you have a approved lock in your hand and a receipt that says it was purchased <= 30 days ago, you are good to go.

Also in the event you were talking about the safety lock (i dont think you were though)...you are incorrect. You need one if you are buying a stripped lower, or a hand gun. The law says nothing about a semi auto with evil features

12088.1. (a) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a
licensed firearms dealer, including private transfers through a
dealer, and all firearms manufactured in this state, shall include or
be accompanied by a firearms safety device that is listed on the
Department of Justice's roster of approved firearms safety devices
and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference
to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the
physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on
the roster for use with the device.
(b) All firearms sold or transferred in this state by a licensed
firearms dealer, including private transfers through a dealer, and
all firearms manufactured in this state shall be accompanied with
warning language or labels as described in Section 12088.3.
(c) (1) All long-gun safes commercially sold or transferred in
this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state,
that do not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to
Section 12088.2 shall be accompanied by the following warning:
"WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for
gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 12088.2. It
does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 12088.1,
which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by
a firearms safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law,
of a gun safe that meets the Section 12088.2 minimum safety standards
developed by the California Attorney General."
(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety
on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any
descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label
affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish in
conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or
color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive
materials in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of
the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(d) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Section 12088.2. Gun safes shall not be
required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without
appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for
purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of
the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms
dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of
purchase with the dealers' record of sales of firearms.
(e) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety
device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or
transferee takes possession of the firearm.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety
device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.
(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to
the firearms dealer which shows the date of purchase, the name, and
the model number of the safety device.
(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in (1) to
(3), inclusive, have been satisfied.
(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with
the dealers' record of sales of firearms.

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 6:09 PM
huh? are you talking about a mag lock as in a BB, or a safety lock? i think the OP is talking a child safety lock

All BBs are mag locks but, not all mag locks are BBs. Yes, I was refering to magazine locks. I have heard of some FFLs refusing to sell stripped lowers or complete rifles without selling a magazine lock as well.

If the OP is refering to safety locks, the shop that makes him buy one can sell him one that will still work with a magazine inserted if that's what he wants to use. Of course, there is no requirement to keep a mag in a OLL nor is there a requirement to keep a lock on the gun.

Kharn
04-10-2011, 6:17 PM
If I were a shop owner and I had 30rd magazines behind the counter as reloads for the store's self-defense rifle, I'd definitely want a 10rd magazine in every BB'ed AR.

G1500
04-10-2011, 6:50 PM
If I were a shop owner and I had 30rd magazines behind the counter as reloads for the store's self-defense rifle, I'd definitely want a 10rd magazine in every BB'ed AR.

You should supply the 10 round magazine if that is the case then.

CSACANNONEER
04-10-2011, 7:00 PM
If I were a shop owner and I had 30rd magazines behind the counter as reloads for the store's self-defense rifle, I'd definitely want a 10rd magazine in every BB'ed AR.

That would be your rule but not a law. I know many people who have legally owned +10 round mags for their featureless builds and mag locked builds too. They are not violating any laws keeping their +10 round mags (loaded or not) in the same safe with theur mag locked rifles.

sreiter
04-11-2011, 2:24 AM
All BBs are mag locks but, not all mag locks are BBs. Yes, I was refering to magazine locks. I have heard of some FFLs refusing to sell stripped lowers or complete rifles without selling a magazine lock as well.

If the OP is refering to safety locks, the shop that makes him buy one can sell him one that will still work with a magazine inserted if that's what he wants to use. Of course, there is no requirement to keep a mag in a OLL nor is there a requirement to keep a lock on the gun.

sorry for my confusion

hornswaggled
04-11-2011, 11:17 AM
FYI Southern Cali Gun in San Diego refused to sell me an OLL without a BB. So I bought from Discount Gun Mart.

IrishPirate
04-11-2011, 11:23 AM
i know the question has been answered, but it might be worth letting the guy know his failed logic. It should't be hard to convince him that it doesn't create an AW and that if he's still paranoid, letting people know it's just store policy would be a better idea than lying about AW laws.

CHS
04-11-2011, 2:11 PM
This misunderstanding keeps popping up because the law says "capacity to accept", but doesn't actually mean "capable of accepting" in plain english.

The gun must be capable of accepting a detachable magazine. Detachable is the key word here, and is defined rigidly in the law. When people latch onto the concept of "capacity to accept" or "capable of accepting" they're talking about attachable magazines, which BB'ed AR15's allow by law.

"detachable magazine" is also a function of the RIFLE, and actually has little to do with the magazines themselves.

The law as written is a bizarre word-puzzle.

But basically remember that "capacity to accept" DOES NOT equal "capable of accepting" and that "detachable" DOES NOT equal "attachable".

Erin
04-11-2011, 2:29 PM
man, i have heard this befor and believed it... it kinda made sense, that the capacity had to be fixed. well i know better now.
calguns. killing fud at the source!

tonelar
04-11-2011, 2:35 PM
Definitely FUD. However, if you risk having it questioned by someone with less knowledge than you, having a ten rounder locked in isnt a bad idea.